Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: ffdiggs on June 29, 2015, 02:37:00 PM
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So I've been on hiatus the last couple of months since I finished my osage take down. Been fighting a bad back, had one daughter graduate college, and one from high school, plus I took in some exchange students for a couple of months. But now that things have calmed down and my back is doing better I want to tackle a BBO/tri-lam bow. Got my bamboo today, Shout out to Echo archery, super fast service.
Heres what I'm thinking spec wise; 64"-66" long, 1 1/4" at fades to 1/2" tips w/reflex-deflex design. I want to end up with a minimum of 50# at 28"
Bamboo back, black walnut core, osage belly. I could use some advice on taper vs. paralell and taper rates.
I am gonna take this nice and slow, I still need to flatten the bamboo and figure out how to taper (I don't have a thickness sander). Plus build a form for the reflex/deflex.
I do have all the wood and a new container of unibond 800, tool wise I have a jointer, planer and new bandsaw.
So please feel free to share any advice, personal experience, and spiritual guidance you have to offer.
Thanks in advance to everyone
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If you are comfortable working with the jointer, you can use it to make tapers.
Assuming you are using 2 piece lams, mark each piece to divide it into 3 areas. Set your jointer for a very light cut and run a lam up to the first mark. Stop there and start again, going to the second mark. Then start again and go all the way to the end of the piece. Now it's tapered.
Not everyone is comfortable jointing thin strips , so to do it in a safer manner, do this with a thick piece of wood and cut off the tapered lam using the bandsaw.
You can also build or buy a taper jig that you can use on your saw. Again , rip a taper on a thick piece , then cut it off at the required thickness.
I hope this helps.
Dave.
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I have plenty of scrap wood, I am going to experiment with using the jointer for tapering. I assume you could use this same method on a full length piece, using the center as the end of the piece?
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Also if I use tapered lams, does the taper face the back or the belly when you glue them up?
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On a full length lam, I work in from both ends, then I run the lam full length over the jointer. This won't work well using a very thick piece because it will need to flex a bit. Be careful with thin lams and make sure the knives are sharp. Sometimes on a full length piece, it can break or tear out badly when going against the grain.
I have gone over to using two piece lams for that reason. I'm not fond of having a thin piece blow up on the jointer.
I also use two push pads so my fingers stay as far as possible from the knives. I go hand over hand as I push, keeping the pads close together.
Dave.
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I don't think it matters how they face, as long as both are oriented the same way.
Dave.
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If,that,is,a,thickness,planer you have I run my full length slats through with a double tapered sled that KennyM made for me.
The sled would,be,easy,to,build if you bought one,set of tapered Liam's and glued them to a,piece of oak.
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macbow, it is a thickness planer, nothing fancy, wish I had a thickness sander though. Sending thin pieces of wood through those metal blades makes me a little nervous. I understand how to make single taper sleds but the full length one has me a little confused. wouldn't have to be high on both ends and low in the middle? Guess I would need to see a picture or blue print for one
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That is it exactly.
If you take two half length tapers and put the thick ends toward the ends on top of a 3/4 inch hardwood board maybe. 1x 3 oak 72 inches long.
Maybe KennyM will chime in.
That is basically your sled then.
Now you can put another 6 foot piece of oak on top and,run it through several times until it has removed the ends and just touched in the middle. Use pencil marks to see the removal.
After all this you will have a solid taper sled. I add a small piece of wood on the lead end as a stop for my thin slats. I have no problems running 1/8 inch slats through on my .004 taper,sled. Usually run it through 3 or 4 times to remove enough material.
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before I got a drum sander I used my jointer to taper my osage cores. a simple three stage taper will do nicely if you can adjust your cutter head accurately enough to take of about 1/32" or so. it should yield a total taper of about .120-.130" over the length of the limb. stay off the middle 12-15" where your riser will be glued on. is important to salvage as much core thickness there as you can so that you have a slight pedestal of sorts to glue your riser on to help prevent possibility of it popping off later. once you have the taper established, you can still use jointer to reduce thickness to whatever you want.
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also, I use my jointer for flattening bamboo to this day. it gets pretty thin sometimes just to make it flat. if your stock is good and your knives sharp, you shouldn't have any trouble tapering something 1/4" thick if you are careful. maybe it goes without saying, but I'm saying it anyway. you absolutely have to have the push pad thingies to do these sorts of maneuvers with a jointer or you will be losing digits posthaste.
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Yep, and that's evident because no matter how careful I am, I have caught those rubber pads on the jointer blades and they're torn here and here. Each time, that could have been my hide.
Another thing, if you thin bamboo on the jointer, which I do too, be careful. Through the course of thinning, the sides can be brought to a knife's edge. I learned that the hard way... with a beauty of a cut to the web of my thumb.
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you all are a great wealth of help and knowledge, I'm in sponge mode soaking up as much as possible.
today I made my cores from black walnut, they are 1 3/8" x 36"x 3/16". that should be a good start. They are not perfect, my planer is old and cheap. Just need to taper them. My brother in law has a thickness sander, looks like a road trip is in my future.
Also got my bamboo flattened today, had to cut it to 64" because the one end had a crack in it from the end to the first node. But I think 64" will be a good length. Now all I need to do is taper it.
Should I cut out my profile then taper or taper before?
Also gonna try and make a taper sled, should it be he same length as my lams or longer?
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thickness sander does make life easier for making bows of this type.
you need to cut the bamboo to its width profile first, then taper it. for a bow like this, anything over 64" for a 28" draw is overkill, imo. no worries.
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I'd make the sled long enough to be used for any length you might use.
A little longer works,well.
I,also put the sand paper on the,sled that has the,sticky backing so the slat sticks and doesn't slide easily. Don't forget the little stop on the lead end just slightly thinner than the slat. This also keeps,the,slat,from sliding.
I,agree,on cutting the profile into the bamboo.
First when tapering you can get the,edges even this way when flattening and tapering.
I glue up with the slat or slats full,width and cut to the bamboo after glue up.
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I'd run the full width out to about 1/3 of the limb. It seems to help with keeping your profile in that hard working area.
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tried making a sled with my planer, strike one! This job thing is taking up most of my time since friday. Hope to try again tomorrow.
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I know I am kinda dragging my feet on this bow, but sometimes work gets in the way. 24's at the fire house and HVACing on the side has kept me pretty busy.
So this is where I'm at:
bamboo cut to profile, 1/8" in the middle tapered to approx.1/16th"
core wood 1/8" tapered approx. .001
I have an osage board 5/8" thick.,thinking I should taper that from 1/2" at the handle to 3/8" tips before I glue it up.
and possibly adding a power lam made from osage.
Thoughts?
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Sounds good.
Power lam is optional. If your dips run from your handle,wood into the Osage fo a inch or so no power lam needed.
If,handle,will have,all the dip on top of Osage the use power lam extending beyond end of handle.
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If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all. Almost ready for glue up, I was running my osage through the planer to get it down to my desired thickness. Next thing I know, kerchunk, a big piece of wood chips out where the grain was a little wavy. I wouldn't have been so bummed but it was a piece I actually bought from 3-rivers. Gonna dig through my stack and see if I have a piece that will do.
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finally glued up and drying (http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1507_zpsrpoa1mbh.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1507_zpsrpoa1mbh.jpg.html)
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Nice form.. :) Couple of tips, I see you clamped the end posts down, that's good. However you should have them both clamped on the inside like you have the one on the right. Because the pressure is forcing them outwards and I have had them get pushed over before I started clamping them down with a good strong clamp. Also from the pressure of clamping the bow into r/d, believe it or not, the base of the form will bow up a little causing you to lose some reflex. I bolted 1" angle iron along both long sides of my form.
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You like that set up? a little design I got from an old pro! (wink, wink) thanks for the advice Roy, I will make the changes you suggested. If you look close you can count close to 50 clamps on there. Got a lot of funny looks at the store.
Unclamped it today it looks pretty good. I'll get pics up when I get the glue cleaned off.
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oops! photo bucket issue, these are the pics I meant to post, finally looks like a bow..
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1513_zpsk67oeylv.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1513_zpsk67oeylv.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1514_zpshodxkfvk.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1514_zpshodxkfvk.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1515_zpsgmhoscrz.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1515_zpsgmhoscrz.jpg.html)
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tips are a half inch out of alignment, trying a little heat and weight to line them up.
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1517_zpstg2oiosc.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1517_zpstg2oiosc.jpg.html)
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Nice.
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Looking good :thumbsup:
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Not too shabby...
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Well I think I have it tillered and ready for final sanding, its coming in about 55 lbs. was hoping for 60 lbs. but I'll be happy with anything 50 or above after final sanding. I normally keep the first bow of any style bow I make but this one is going to a friend. I have given out three bows I've made to friends, we are having a competition to see who makes meat first first.
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1172_zps9pyvh9pu.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1172_zps9pyvh9pu.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1175_zps9oymykky.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1175_zps9oymykky.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1177_zpsbzyvesi7.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1177_zpsbzyvesi7.jpg.html)
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Well I think I have it tillered and ready for final sanding, its coming in about 55 lbs. was hoping for 60 lbs. but I'll be happy with anything 50 or above after final sanding. I normally keep the first bow of any style bow I make but this one is going to a friend. I have given out three bows I've made to friends, we are having a competition to see who makes meat first first.
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1172_zps9pyvh9pu.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1172_zps9pyvh9pu.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1175_zps9oymykky.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1175_zps9oymykky.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1177_zpsbzyvesi7.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1177_zpsbzyvesi7.jpg.html)
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I guess it's ok. :)
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Already looks better than most pics of Roy's bows...
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Nice job
I like it
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Something is out of alignment. That right side of the mustache is drooping a little. :biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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well Roy, from what I've seen here on trad-gang, thats a compliment from you, So thanks!! :thumbsup:
Canopyboy, I appreciate the compliment, Roy was my spiritual guidance on this one.
This humidity has been tough on the stache, my string wax has been doing double duty. :biglaugh:
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Big thanks to everyone that gave me advice on this, and thanks for all the positive compliments.
Putting antler tip overlays on tonight, and hoping to have it stained by the end of the week. Gotta pul a 24 at work tomorrow so can't get to it until Wednesday. So stay tuned for the finished product
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tip overlays on, decided to stay with the osage and blackwalnut laminated look to match the handle
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1531_zpsv2mxegqq.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1531_zpsv2mxegqq.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1530_zpsqadel0un.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1530_zpsqadel0un.jpg.html)
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Looks like a sound bow, nice tiller.
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Like the overlays. When strung check to see if there is any rubbing on the lower,side,at,rest. Might need to remove a little more on the lower portion if there is friction there.
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yeah, Macbow they needed a little TLC. That picture was right after I shaped them, today it got the full treatment. Sanded from 60 grit to 400 grit. hit it with some .000 steel wool and burnished it. It shines like glass and is smooth as a babies bum.
I'm pulling a 36 hour shift at work so its on hold until this weekend. gonna dye the bamboo and start rubbing it down with some tru-oil. Hoping to have it finished and give to my buddy by this time next week.
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That's a good looking bow. Lovely curves, nice lines, and a perfect tiller, at least to my eyes. definitely one your friend will enjoy.
I've got to ask though, based on your anchor point, how many times have you ripped off that 'stache of yours? :biglaugh: :laughing: JK
In all honesty, though I'm not much of a mustache guys myself, I couldn't grow one that nice if I wanted to. lol
Nice bow, good job.
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Pyro, first off interesting name, makes me wonder what your hobby might be? :campfire: Or maybe what line of work your in. But any way thanks for the compliments. the bow got its final coat of true oil today gonna hit it with some spar varnish tomorrow to dull the shine, put a handle grip on, string it up and tune it for some arrows. And to answer your question I do catch my stache once in awhile, but if I wax it enough I can hook the string on it and give my arm a rest when I'm at full draw on a deer. :biglaugh:
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:biglaugh: :biglaugh:
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Well all that hard work and right now its pretty much a walking stick. Got the finish all done made a string exercised it for a while shot a few arrows and have a small crack 10" from the tip right on the edge and its going horizontal.
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1191_zpsom9527za.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1191_zpsom9527za.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1190_zps3doj5r7n.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1190_zps3doj5r7n.jpg.html)
Its a darn shame too, this was probably the one of the best looking bows I made, I was really proud of it and anxious to give to a friend.
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1197_zpsohhw2slw.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1197_zpsohhw2slw.jpg.html)
RIP
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Could you possibly do a plug deal on the belly? Dunno if it would be worth searching it on here and seeing if it would fit for your issue at hand.
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Sorry to see the bow not working out. Did you shoot the bow in much before putting the finish on? Just thinking that may have shown the problem sooner.
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that is a drag. two very good points above. I think a belly patch would work, and I would try it if that were my bow. nothing to lose now.
personally, I'm not satisfied that tiller and weight has settled in until after I've shot a new bow a few hundred times and pulled it to full draw on my tree a few hundred more. many problems, ones like yours included, will reveal themselves during the "shoot it" period.
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Mr. 'stache
Use some good glue, and a matching patch and get that thing fixed! I don't know too much about bow building yet, but I've read lots of people's posts about fixing things like that. You can do it!
Plus I'm still waiting to see proof that a waxed up mustache can hold a bow back, maybe a 5# bow but that wouldn't be good for anything but shooting flies. Lol
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I have fixed several BBOs just like yours. Bend the bow to open the crack, fill it full of a good quality superglue, wrap with braded serving material 1/2" above and below the crack and soak the wrap with superglue, done and bombproof.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/killer4wrap.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/killer4wrap.jpg.html)
I have tried the plug fix a bunch of times and never had one hold up for the long run. The thread wrapped bows are still shooting years later.
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Sorry to see that, that is a good looking bow. What stain did you use, I like that colour. Give Eric's remedy a shot. Even if you decide to not give it away you may end up with a great bow yourself. You can even put a matching wrap on the other end to make it symmetrical.
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Yea....fixable. Do what Eric said. Also on future ones round out you limb corners more, especially around knots like that. It distributes the stresses better.
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I've done the serving and glue on a bow that had a small crack right at the fade out once, it seems to be holding. I wonder what would happen if I combined the two fixes. Probably not gonna get to it until middle of next week, My baby girl leaves for the Army on Monday, lots of time to make bows only four days to make some memories. Thanks for the advice all of you. I will keep you posted.
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Oh! razorback, I used Fiebings leather dye, dark brown. Put on several coats and used steele wool between the nodes to lighten it up.
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well i tried to do the patch thing, thought it was gonna work, but when I put it on the tree to exercise it , KERBOOM!
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1568_zpsvskvntke.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1568_zpsvskvntke.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1569_zps3wekahji.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1569_zps3wekahji.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1572_zpsrvxpn2ja.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1572_zpsrvxpn2ja.jpg.html)
(http://i928.photobucket.com/albums/ad129/wdigby71/IMG_1574_zpswdd0mgpw.jpg) (http://s928.photobucket.com/user/wdigby71/media/IMG_1574_zpswdd0mgpw.jpg.html)
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That's too bad dude. I feel for Ya, we all have to learn, but the learning experiences suck sometimes. Get back on the horse when you're ready and get us another pretty bow for all of us to look at.
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Hey, it was worth a shot. Wish the patch would have worked for you, but it's kind of a dicey thing. I did one on an elm bow and it didn't work for me either. Good luck on your next one!
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That's what I suspected might happen. A bow is a tortured piece of wood! As soon as I uncover a flaw of any kind it tends to get put in the corner of shame. Wraps around limbs show a faulty construction in my eyes. A wood bow needs to be more or less perfect to withstand what you are asking it to do.
That's not to say that these patches don't work full stop but......it's not an ideal scenario.
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I agree with Mike...
Sometimes the patch does work, but for me when I encounter a flaw in a wooden bow, I'm done with it and I cut it up and start another bow. With my luck it would break when that buck of a life time comes walking by at 5 yards.. :)
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Here is the patch I did. I have a feeling it's alive still because I put in harder wood, left it proud, and only ground off the absolute minimum amount of the original belly to remove the fret and not 1mm extra. Or maybe it was the will of the gods ... I don't know.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=010674;p=2
I tend to agree with Mike and Roy. Once a bow is flawed I can't trust it to hunt with, or to give away, and I'm not much of a target shooter.
Anyone who's experienced the massive time that a sinewed bow takes to complete knows why this one got special treatment.
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Yeah, I figured it was worth a shot, I think a sinew or thread wrap would have been the better way to go. Oh Well! I think I will cut off the broke limb at the handle and save the good limb. Next time this happens, (i'm sure it will) I'll take the two good halfs and make a take down.
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That's the spirit!!
I have a yew/osage half and half bow....it shoots like a dog but it looks cool as heck!
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Bummer man. Have a campfire and burn it. Then cook a bratt and marshmellows over the dead bows coals. It will make you feel better. :-)