Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Pyro43 on June 18, 2015, 12:03:00 AM
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Hi everyone. I'm glad to be part of this forum, though I'll admit that this is new for me. I've decided to get back into archery, mostly for hunting but also for fun, and I definitely want to go the traditional route. I have been learning a lot from everyone on here up until now, there are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum. I'll say now for the first time of many, thanks to anyone that shares their knowledge, and I hope to be able to contribute myself as I gain some of my own.
I am taking the plunge and building my first bow, I've made a few out of PVC to get a feel for what I want. I've decided on a Hybrid Longbow to start off with, my resources wont allow me to make a recurve. I am by no means a bowyer obviously, but I have worked with wood my whole life, along with doing other trades, and I hope those skills will cut down the learning curve for me. I tend to take risks though, so I'm going to take this slow and try to get whatever advice from you guys that you are willing to offer. I don't want to fail, but I'm not afraid of a challenge either, I think you'll see what I mean when you see the design I've settled on.
So to start off with these are my goals.
1-Looking for around 70-75# @ 28", 68-70" NTN
after the bow takes set I'd be happy with
65#, I determined my draw weight with my
PVC protos
2-I'm using Bamboo for backing, Ipe for belly
3-I've selected a more dramatic reflex/deflex
that will probably kick my butt when it
comes to tillering, but unless I get too
much feedback in the contrary, I'm pretty
set on the design. (risky is what I said
;) )
Here is an image of the form that I made, the middle section I still need to cut out for my handle blank:
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0010_zpsluraqnbn.jpg)
Here is my handle design along with the woods I'm going to use, Cherry, Zebra, and Bloodwood:
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0011_zpsqdobb7u3.jpg)
So I guess what I'm looking for is any comments based on what I have given so far. I have a piece of ipe 3/4" x 1 1/4" x 72". I got them from Tenbrook Archery and they look like some really good pieces from what little I understand. If anyone has any idea of what size to preshape the ipe/bamboo to before glueup it would be very much appreciated. I'm mostly worried about the taper, I want to take as much off as possible to aid in gluing, without taking too much off for my draw weight.
I plan on using heat to prebend the handle section so there isn't any stress on the glue joint causing the handle to pop off later. I've done a lot of research, and the ipe doesn't heat bend very well but I wont be as worried about damaging the wood in the handle area from the high heat needed to bent it. But I'll see when I get to that point, if it doesn't' work I'll be doing a straight handle, I would cut the ipe into thinner strips and glue it that way, but I don't have access to the tools needed to do that.
Anyway, I'm going be prepping the wood for glueup this week I hope. I've never taken pictures of a project I've done as I build it, so I'm going to make a big effort to get plenty. I know that is what a lot of people like, and I like to see in others posts.
Anyway, sorry for the long first post. I'm excited to get started down what I hear is a slippery slope :shaka:
Chris
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First off heavier bows are much harder to make than lighter ones....as you'll find out!
Your form looks good but don't cut out the handle blank piece. You can glue your handle on without the form. Glue the limbs up first then remove from the form and then simply clamp the riser pieces to the bow blank.
My advice is to either cut it to that shape and then sand to fit the curve or use lots of thin pieces that will conform to the curve.
Forget the heat idea for your handle pieces it just won't work.
for that design I would start out with a 0.004 taper glued in.
This easier to do with a core wood. Maple, cherry, ash etc.
Your bamboo should be around 1/8th thick at the center to about 1/16th at the tips. Use your 'finger calipers' to judge that you have no thick/thin spots before glue-up.
Depending on core thickness your ipe should be around 1/4 inch parallel thickness. I would make the core a 1/4 thick at the butt ends. 1 1/4 width is going to be tight - so leave it full width.
Your width taper is pretty key with these sort of bows i've found it best to keep full width to at least mid-limb then taper to 1/2 nocks (which you can narrow once nearing full draw and you know how stable it is).
Marking out a dead straight centerline is very important.
Goo luck.
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Your calling it a aggressive D/R but with that form it will turn out to be a very mild R/D. Reason being especially with that type form there will be "spring back" when taken off the form. You might get half that with the weight your going for.
Look up Roy's post,from PA. He has some photos of his form.
I use the same type. It is,easily adjustable for the amount of R/D.
Trying to bend thick IPE is tough. It certainly will make a heavy bow.
Might start with 1/2 inch thick in center tapering .004 to tips .
Width 1 1/4 wide for 1/3 of way to tips then taper to 3/8 inch wide at,tips.
Do all this before,glue up.
Bamboo like Mike said.
You would be much better of like Mike suggested with a different core wood that would leave enough IPE for 2 bows.
Must be someone around with a bandsaw.
Good building.
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X2 on splitting that Ipe for two bows.
Trying to bend 3/4" Ipe is gonne be like trying to bend 3/4" re-bar. That stuff is hard!
Also, the thicker the Ipe when you glue it up, the more spring back you're going to get off the form. I think Mike and Macbow said it right on the other stuff as well.
As an aside, a lighter weight bow is easier to make, shoot, and pass around to your friends. Unless you're grizzly hunting, it's also not necessary. And lastly, a well made bow of 50-60lbs may shoot faster that a not as well made 70#er.
An example ... I recently finished a 70# @26" BBI with mild RD and 58" ttt, and even though the tips are stupidly narrow for nearly 12" and the bow shows little set, it is not nearly as fast as my much better made 62# hickory-walnut-Ipe tri-lam.
My point, arrow speed/KE/momentum is what counts, not how much the string hurts your fingers to draw.
P.S. I am a wimp about draw weight and not ashamed of it.
Looking forward to seeing it come along!
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Thanks Mike for the advice, I was trying to decide if I should glue the handle after, that's what I'll be doing now. I figured along what you said about bending the ipe, I'm too stubborn not to at least try it, but I know it may not work like I want. This a one forum I was basing the idea off of, tradgang: heat bending ipe (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=125;t=010080)
The info on the bamboo and ipe taper/thickness is just what I was looking for, thanks. Although both you and Mac referenced .004 taper, I'm not sure what that is, I'll do some reading on the forums. I wish I had access to a band saw, I'm still newish to Arizona and no one I know has one.
Mac would you suggest changing the form then to get more R/F out of it? I guess that looked more aggressive than some I've seen, but I'm no expert. And I knew I'd lose some after glue up and tillering, I guess I didn't realize how much. I've seen several maker's bows with a lot of R/D and I not only like the look but the potential efficiency. If I were to change the form, I'm thinking an Inch or so gradually added to the tips, more reflex, would help. I don't want to add too much more delfex for fear of making my brace height to high, plus I don't think I could get that ipe to bend much more than it is at the handle.
Thanks Mike and Mac, I appreciate your feedback. I'll post some more pics as I start getting it to shape and dry testing in the form.
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Thanks LittleBen. I really thought about using the ipe as the core and putting bamboo on the belly, But that requires a few more tools than I have right now. I'm going for what BowHunter15 did in his build, just with a bend in the handle BBI build (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=012506;p=1) .
I have heard of what you are saying about the weight vs efficiency. And is something I'll be taking into account as I go along. Especially because this will be my first bow, first tiller, etc. I may have to drop the weight simply to get the tiller right if I make a mistake. That's why if I get a 65# bow when I'm done, I'll be plenty happy with that. But a working 55-60# bow with a good tiller wont be thrown away either :laughing:
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So here is what I got done today. I'm a hand tool guy right now, I've always wanted to understand traditional woodworking, as I figured it would greatly enhance my woodworking skills when using power tools. So this last year I bought a bunch of hand planes, chisels, etc. to get started. And I have really enjoyed learning how to get the results I need out of these old tools. I'll be using these on this bow build
This first picture is me planing down the already shaped bamboo with my Stanley #4. (http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0012_zpssn8xdini.jpg)
I was surprised how well bamboo hand planed. I thought for sure I'd have tons of tearout, especially around the nodes. But taking some knowledge I obtained while working some particular difficult grained wood, I had already set up the chipbreaker to within .5-1mm from the edge. With a less than newly sharpened blade this is what I got.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0013_zpsrkydlogo.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0014_zpscxuscbzh.jpg)
Hardly any tearout, I could probably get zero tearout if I really tried. I'm not sure how many of you guys on this forum like to do woodworking apart from building bows, but you will find this video very informative if you use hand planes much. Cap irons and hand planes. (https://vimeo.com/41372857)
Anyway, back to the build. I took me a while, maybe 2-3 hours to get the bamboo down to thickness. I took it slow and had to learn how to plane it evenly, the nodes make it difficult cause it flexes between them. Got it to around a 3/16" center thickness at the handle area, after sanding to rough up and even out any low spots here is what I got.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0018_zpsgyuqhzzw.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0017_zps4gtbnsvt.jpg)
It's got some twist, but my tip centers are lined up straight.
I clamped the ipe down and had a few goes at it just to see how much work I'm in for. This stuff is as hard as the bloodwood I've worked with. Plane mostly skips over the top, I have to angle it to get it to dig in. There is some tearout too, luckily after the scraping from tillering I won't have to worry about it. (http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0016_zpsjpvmzvid.jpg)
I'll sharpen the blade real well before I got at it again, but besides some sweat and sore muscles, it won't take too much to get it to the size I want. I can't wait to get it in the form for glue up.
By the way, it was a nice sunny 115 F today here in the valley of the sun. I had shade to work in, but I think I'll call the next couple weeks as I build this bow the Bowyers Diet Plan. I think I drank a gallon in the few hours was out there.
Stay tuned.
Chris
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That is nice work with a plane and scraper. The only bamboo I've flattened by hand I used a rasp, scraper, and coarse sandpaper. It took more than a few hours. Do you have a coarse rasps, like a farrier's rasp? I've never used Ipe, but I've rasped hickory, osage, and bubinga and it works nice if you have a lot of wood to remove.
Good luck with your build :thumbsup:
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I can't imagine doing it with only a rasp and sandpaper, lol. I do have set of rasps and files for wood, I'll give it a try, but I'll bet the plane is still faster. It's funny because until I learned how to properly use a plane I had no idea how much can be done with them. Most of my woodworking projects I don't even have to sand cause the proper plane leaves a better finish. Referring back to what I said in the last post, that is one reason I'm glad I learned how to use them. Building a bow isn't anything like a cabinet though, so I look forward to learning how to apply the tools I have to bowyering.
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Looking good so far. I think your insight into woodworking in general will be much appreciated.
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Looking good. IPE is some hard stuff.
If you decide to plane down another bamboo slat a 10 to 12 inch wide by 6 foot piece of the blue foam board used for housing insulation is good to lay the node side of the bamboo on.
It will let the nodes dig in some and support in between nodes.
I use this with my thickness planer.
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That's a good idea Macbow, I figured there had to be a better way. I'll be doing that on the next one, I'm sure there'll be more bows down the road.
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Originally posted by macbow:
Looking good. IPE is some hard stuff.
If you decide to plane down another bamboo slat a 10 to 12 inch wide by 6 foot piece of the blue foam board used for housing insulation is good to lay the node side of the bamboo on.
It will let the nodes dig in some and support in between nodes.
I use this with my thickness planer.
Thanks for the info!I have been adding these tips to a word document,got about nine pages so far.
Ernie
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Make your bamboo thinner. Measure on the sides and make it less than 1/16" on the sides. And even.
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BigErn.
Like to see you post up your notes some day.
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I wasn't sure how thin to go, I'm still shooting for around 70# so I didn't want to go too thin and have the ipe overpower the bamboo. I still need to sand it to even out a few more spots and rough it up for glueup, I get it closer to the 1/16 edge.
On that note, I'll be using Unibond 800 and I wasn't sure how much I need to rough up the surface. Any recommendations? I don't have a toothing plane blade yet, but I figured some low grit sandpaper would work well. I'm thinking around 40 grit, too low or too high?
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Agree with John bamboo is still too thick.
All the strength in the bamboo in in the fibers on the outside.
It is best thin.
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Use a hacksaw blade to rough up the surfaces.
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Will do, thanks guys. Hacksaw blade is a good idea, I've got a few of those lying around.
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I use unibond 800, on my light weight kids bows I don't score the wood or,bamboo. Over a 100 bows and no glue problems.
On hunting weight bows and heavier I score with toothing plane or hacksaw.
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Hey guys.
So I only had a little free time this afternoon to work on the bow. I started with the bamboo to get it down to a 1/16" edge. I used a large piece of flat foam like Macbow said and it worked great. After planing it down to where I wanted it, I didn't have any divots at all around the nodes. Then I used the hacksaw blade and scuffed it up well, I went at apposing angles and got a real nice cross hatch pattern that should provide a really good glue bond.
I then sharpened the blade on my plane to a fine keen edge, clamped down the ipe and went to work. With a good sharp edge the stuff planes rather well. It has terrible interlocking grain, so even with a sharp blade and the chipbreaker set close, I got some tearout. Nothing I need to worry about for the bow, but if I were making a cabinet or such out of it, I'd have to make some adjustments to get the tearout to near 0.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0019_zpsemqvec6b.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0020_zpsgvxdbien.jpg)
For a hand plane guy, that curly little ribbon looks beeeeeautiful :saywhat: . I got about half of the one side done before I needed to clean up. My wife and I had a pair of tickets to the Rattlers game tonight, and she's been wanting to go for a while. Good game, they kicked Orlando's butt.
Anyway, might be a few days before I get back to it, but ya'll have a nice weekend.
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I forgot to ask. I looked a little and couldn't find anything right off the bat about tapering. Macbow you said:
"Might start with 1/2 inch thick in center tapering .004 to tips."
I am planing down to where the limbs will be 1/2" thick from fades to tips right now. But what exactly do you mean by tapering .004 to tips? If you could help me better understand that I would be real appreciative. Thanks
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Tapering .004 means .004 per inch.
So if my math is right figure if 35 inches from center of bow to tip times .004 that would be .14 removed at the tip end.
I think you could be a little more aggressive even.
Using hand planer vs a thickness planer or thickness sander with a sled I would shoot for 1/2 at fades to 3/8 at tips.
This really is just pre tillering before glue up. Lesson wood to bend and glue the easier it goes.
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Thanks Macbow, that helps out a lot.
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I edited the last post was,supposed to read 3/8 thick at tips.
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That's what I figured, I'll read through my posts several times and still find mistakes. No big deal
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So I got some time to work on the bow this afternoon and I was able to get quite a bit done. I finished shaping the piece of ipe, first down to thickness, then to the width profile to match the bamboo.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0022_zpskdv6gt25.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0023_zps4wolwxcl.jpg)
At the fades it measures 1/2" then it tapers down to the tips to around 7/16". I realized that wasn't enough once I got it into the form to test clamp it. I'll take it down to 3/8" once it take it out tomorrow like Macbow had said.
I bent the handle after I finished preparing the stave. Following some instructions on an old Tradgang post I managed to heat bend a little curve into the handle that holds when taken from the form.
I would imagine all that heat probably damages the wood fibers, so like so many have said, I don't think the technique could be used on the limbs. Though some testing would need to be done to verify that. But where the handle area is it won't affect the rest of the bow if the wood was weakened. I didn't heat too close to the fades just to be sure. So if anyone says you probably can't bend 3/4" ipe, here's your proof.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0024_zpsn4doiqar.jpg)
Just a little past this point is as far as I felt comfortable tightening the clamps. I used a heat gun and got the wood nice and hot. As others have said in other posts, little bits of black tar looking stuff comes out of the wood and it smokes a bit once good and hot. I alternated heating and clamping until I made it all the way to the form.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0026_zpsdnocvugq.jpg)
I may have gotten the wood to bend as far as I needed it to without heat, but I doubt it would have held its shape after unclamping. I wanted it to hold it's shape to reduce the chance of the handle popping off later down the road if the glue failed.
At one point I placed some paper shims in the center of the handle to bend the handle a little more than the form would allow. What bend I did get is probably about the limit with a 3/4" thick board, as I clamped it down with the shims in place a little bit of wood at the apex of the curve started to splinter :banghead: . I stopped there and called it good. You can see in pic above the center blue clamp, that is where I took some thin super glue and clamped the splinters back down.
I left it in the form for tonight, I figure it should help the handle take set better, I'm happy with the slight bend I got, I think it will look real nice when it's finished.
While it is in the form I figured I might as well start to develope the bends in the limbs.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0025_zpsuhwdm5hh.jpg)
It was at this point I realised I needed to taper the limbs more. Looking back at Macbows last post I realized I needed to take the taper down to 3/8" at the tips.
One question I had was about the tips of the bow and their relative bend to the rest of the bow. It was my understanding that with a R/D bow, you want the tips, maybe the last 8-10", to be relatively stiff, so most of the energy is stored in the first 2/3rds of the limbs. So the tips kinda act to snap the string. So if I taper the ipe both in thickness and width, will I still get those stiff tips I'm looking for? It would seem to me like the two tapers would cause the tips of the bow to bend uniformly with the rest of the limbs.
Anyway. this last pic is just a close up of the clamping pressure on the limbs. I'm afraid to try and clamp them all the way down for fear of them breaking.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0027_zpsizexeckj.jpg)
Will tapering them down the last 1/16" allow them to bend as far as I need without breaking. I wanted to put some shims in the form at the tips to give maybe another inch of reflex, will I be able to do that?
Sorry for all the questions. Thanks for any help offered. I'm excited that it is starting to take shape, hopefully I can get it glued up and start tillering it this week :archer2: .
Anyway, thanks for all the advice so far. I'll post some more pics once the bow comes out of the form.
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Now you are running into the problems of no core! That's why I suggested it earlier and would still do so. You will get a fair amount of spring back from trying to make ipe that thick conform to your form. Personally I wouldn't be happy about trying to get those outer limbs clamped down to your form without too much risk of them breaking/lifting splinters. Ipe will split as soon as you look at it! Try spliting some of your offcuts with an axe....no interlocking grain here ;)
To answer your questions - Yes the taper should certainly continue out to the tips.
A r/d bows outer limbs look stiff due to the reflex there but they are still working. If not then you will get excessive set inner limb. A wooden bow needs to have the bending stresses spread out along it length. That is your aim - to distribute the stress as well as you can, not concentrate it.
Don't add more reflex - trust me! Get this bow built first then maybe think about making a new form.
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Agree that you've gone far enough with the bends. Would glue it up just like that.
As far,as tip thickness you can always glue in some over lays like hardwood or buffalo horn.
With the weight your shooting for 3/8 may be a narrow as the,tips need to be.
On 50 # bows I go narrower after the overlay and string grooves are in.
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I never cut the belly slat to profile until after glue-up. That's how Dean Torges taught me. Have I mentioned his video ("Hunting the Bamboo Backed Bow" - bowyersedge.com)?
Get your belly slat thinner.
If you use a belly slat that is the same thickness at the handle as the rest of the length, it will bend during glue-up. Then you glue on a handle later.
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I was going to post EXACTLY what John just did.
I dont cut the wood to its front profile until after glue up. The bamboo, yes.
And like he said, I make the whole slat the 'working thickness' I expect it needs to be for the target weight, then pretaper from dips to tips, leaving it parallel in thickness between the dips (or fades, if you'd rather call them that). I have never left a thicker 'pedestal' of wood under the handle, and they don't delaminate.
I second Dean's video. You'll love it.
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Thanks guys for the feedback. I appreciate it and try to get the most out of it.
I am seeing what you mean mikkekeswick about using multiple laminations. For my next bow I want to try a Bamboo Ipe Bamboo trilam with the belly lam running up the handle, I really like the look of it, and like you said, I think I'll be able to get a better R/D glue up out of the form. Ipe is some 'fun' stuff to work with that's for sure. And what you explained about the stress distribution along the limbs make sense, and I can see how because of the relex they would appear to be more stiff.
And just a side note, not to discount what you said about interlocking grain, but at least in woodworking, interlocking grain refers to the grain running opposing directions from growth ring to growth ring. It is most evident in quarter sawn wood, as when you plane it, especially with a hand plane, you'll get a nice smooth cut in some areas, generally between each set of rings, and others will tear out. There isn't much of a 'with the grain of the wood' when it comes to working with interlocking grained woods. They require a lot more care when working with only hand tools, some are about impossible to plane and you end up using a scraper a lot. A lot of the tropical woods are that way, Ipe being one of them. Hope that doesn't sound too know-it-ally, that's my woodworking background coming out.
MacBow I planned on using some of the same bloodwood and zebra from the handle as the tip overlays, I assume those will work ok?
And I appreciate the tip about not cutting the profile until after glue up John. I had seen some people do that so I just assumed that is what you do, especially because like you said you usually always to the bamboo before. I'll be sure to keep that in mind for the next one. My riser design will be different on the next one too. I've learning a lot to take to the next bow build.
I'll put that video on my list of bowyering educational material to purchase, He looks like he knows what he is talking about :readit:
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Yes those should be fine for overlays.
I agree with the Dean Torges video. It is a gem.
Get it before your next build it will change things especially your form.
I also,cut the board to the bamboo after glue up. But I have a bandsaw.
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So I just tapered the limbs some more today. I have both limbs tapering fairly evenly from 1/2" down to 3/8". Using a pair of calipers, (why do we call them a pair or set when it's just one?), I was able to check that both limbs are pretty closely matched, I'll have to wait until I get it on the tree, but they should bend evenly.
Once I got it back in the form I was very happy to be able to clamp it all the way to match the form. No splitting or odd sounds at all.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0028_zpsob9pigvz.jpg)
It's looking pretty good. Unless I end up having something come up tomorrow afternoon, I plan on gluing her up.
A few questions for those that might have some input :help: .
First is whether I should leave the ipe stave in the form for a day or more to get it to take some set? I'm thinking if the bow clamped down in the form starts to take the shape of the form, there won't be as much springback after glue up. Would it be better if the ipe 'gave into' the shape of my form a little first by leaving it in? Or do I want that all that stress from bending to get glued permanently into place? I can't think as to which is best, and if leaving the stave clamped down will damage the wood fibers too much.
Also with that same idea in mind. If I glue it up needing to apply a lot of clamping pressure to get to to bend where I want it, will that much pressure glue starve my joint? I've looked at quite a few peoples pictures of their glue ups, and some look like they are really clamping down, or forcing a lot of bend, which would force more glue out. Is that even something I need to worry about? I roughed up all my surfaces really well with a hacksaw blade, got a real nice crosshatch pattern from the scratches. I'd hate to glue starve the joints, not much can be done to repair that, at least that I know of.
And lastly, if you've made it this far :thumbsup: . I will be using rubber inner tubes to wrap the pieces together before going into the form. I've looked and cannot find anything on how tight to wrap. I don't want to squeeze too much glue out, but at the same time I'd like to get as tight a seam as possible. Nothing compares to a seamless glue joint as far as I'm concerned. But I've never used a glue like UniBond 800 before, just the titebond glues and gorilla glue. So how tight do you wrap yours? I know it's hard to say, but do you wrap as hard as the rubber feels like it will stretch, or just barely enough to where the joint looks like there are no gaps?
I'm excited to glue it up tomorrow. Unless I hear to leave it in the form for a few days to take shape. Thanks for all the help, hope you guys are enjoying the build.
Chris
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Sorry. I forgot I had one more question. Any tips on what I can use between my wooden cauls and the wrapped bow. I don't want to damage the bamboo nodes with the clamping pressure. I was thinking along the lines of layered carpet or some foam or something. I've seen people use pressurized fire hose for laminated glue ups, but I'm afraid I don't have that option. Thanks for the ideas.
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You don't need the top half of your form. No need to sandwich the bow! If you just have the bottom half then there is no need to make a spacer to protect your bamboo. Just wrap the inner tubes around. As for tightness I always pull them until the edge of their stretch. People talk about 'dry' glue joints but these glues works on a microscopic level and are meant to be very thin layers, glue starved joints get blamed for a lot of other problem imo. Pull the tubes so they are at the edge of their stretch and you will be fine. I used to make laminated elb's, I must have made 200+ of them and i've never had a single glue problem with the inner tube method.
As for wether or not to leave the ipe in your form...well if it clamps down to the form well then there is no need but it wouldn't harm anything if you did leave it in your form. Personally I wouldn't leave it in because you'll lose some of the advantage of gluing in Perry reflex (but you shouldn't really think about that yet!). There is also no need to score the surface with modern glues as they wet the surfaces so well. As for perfect surface preparation for that glue then a quick email to Unibond and they will send you the glues datasheet. I always do this with any unfamiliar glue as you know 100% that the information is correct and not just somebodies 'the way I do it'. ;)
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In order:
No
You will be fine
Make your belly, glue, backing sandwich. Wrap your sandwich with one wrap of electrical tape at the handle, midlimb, and tips. Wrap the sandwich with Saran Wrap. Put it in your form. I would not use rubber innertube strips in that kind of a form. Put a strip of foam on top.
I would have some foam packaging material set on top of the bamboo to hopefully get even pressure. Add extra pieces between the nodes. Still, I would not expect great glue lines. That's one reason why Dean came up with his system for glue-up so that clamps (or rubber innertube strips) could be used on the entire length.
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So, it's been a busy last few days. I haven't had the chance to post any of the work I got done, though it hasn't been a whole lot.
I didn't get to glue everything up until saturday. That gave me some time to work out just how to do it. Thanks to the input on the forum and from a friend, everything went well. I put it together with the electrical tape and saran wrap. I got it in the form and used some scrap leather I had cut to fit between the nodes to spread the clamping pressure. It worked out well. Got some really good glue lines, at least I'd consider them pretty good.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/2018bfaf-8992-4473-a1a0-487a56908bb6_zpsla7id5iu.jpg)
I left it in the form till the next evening. I couldn't hardly wait to pull it out, though a little apprehensive at the same time. Pulled it out clamps came off easy, and the bow only had about an inch of springback.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0033_zpslpfqe1wq.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0030_zpsbvanu9q8.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0031_zps7k3jc7qr.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0032_zpsvmdwziqq.jpg)
Sorry the picts aren't the best, its an old camera. But I think you'all agree it turned out pretty good. Unclamping after glue up is a little nerve racking. I'm very pleased with it, I think it will turn out well, and they should only get better from here.
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The glue lines are good too, better than I expected from what some people had said, but I think what I imaged was pretty bad.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0035_zpsroki708t.jpg)
I have to say, the painters tape before glueup saves a lot of work, tape that whole thing up top to bottom, cause that glue gets everywhere. Though a little heads up, the tape isn't too easy to get off, the hardened glue makes it about impossible to just pull the tape off, But scraping/peeling the tape off would be way easier than having to scrape that hard glue off the wood.
After getting the tape off and cleaning up any other squeeze out left, I used a sharp scraper and worked down the joints to see the glue lines along the whole bow, they all looked real good, no gaps anywhere.
So I started to work on the handle and tip overlays. For the overlays I went with bloodwood over zebra. The handle is cherry, zebra, cherry, bloodwood. It's a little odd, I just used the wood I had lying around, but I'm sure after the bow is finished it will look great, just hard to see now. Once the cherry takes some color from age I think it will look less odd.
I glued up the handle lams first, same with the overlays. Then I prepped the surfaces to mount them to the bow.
Mating the two curves of handle and bow took some time. I used a pencil to put graphite all over the bow where the handle would go, then I held the handle blank tight to where it would mate with the bow and just moved it around in little circles to transfer the graphite, leaving marks wherever there were high spots. I had to do that maybe 10-15 times, scraping down the high spots each time, until I had an almost perfect fit. Knowing that the glue would make up the difference, I didn't get it 100%, but I'm glad I did as much as I did, cause the seam between the handle and the bow turned out really well too. I just hope it is a good glue joint, and doesn't pop off down the road :knothead: .
Should have some time tomorrow to start tillering, wish me luck.
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Good luck!
This is the stage where plenty of pictures will really help. Go slowly,slowly!
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You've done well to this point. I like the angle on your tip overlays.
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There are a lot of opinions on the tillering.
Going slow is always good. I would establish the dips on each end of the handle to a,smooth transition.
I have my guys then stay away from working on the dips or fades more till the bow is floor tillered especially getting the main reflexed part of the limbs bending some.
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So I started tillering today. After I got my background grid done up and the tillering tree finished.
I marked my handle on the bow and did the first parts of the fades or dips like MacBow said. the transitions between the woods look good, can't wait to get them sanded smooth and oiled up.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4602_zpsuwa2jxqu.jpg)
Here is the bow strung with a string as tight as it would go without bending the limbs, I think you guys call it a loose string.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4603_zpswl2p5yfz.jpg)
I then proceeded to work the limbs one inch at a time roughly thirty times each before pulling one more inch down. Here are three pics each one inch more than the last.
1"
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4604_zpschggelrk.jpg)
2"
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4605_zpsqbvlnhrj.jpg)
3"
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4606_zpslccne69i.jpg)
As far as I can tell so far they seem to be bending evenly. At about 3 inches of pull I'm getting about 50#s on my scale. So I obviously have a long ways to go.
If I understand correctly. I don't ever want to pull any harder past my intended draw wieght, right?
From here, do I want to refine and finish my width taper before starting to remove bellywood? I'd like to get it to 3/8" at the tips if that isn't too narrow, starting my taper about 12" from the tips.
Or do I want to start taking off bellywood to work towards my goal weight, and an even limb tiller?
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I'll wait for some feedback before I go too far. But I took maybe 50 scrapes with a card scraper off of each limb, about 10 each time followed by exercising. Hasn't made a huge difference yet. But this is what it looks like at 5". it is pulling about 65#, I can't go any further until it drop the weight some. But should I keep scraping bellywood, or narrow my tips to close to my final thickness? Thanks guys
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4619_zpsfagfhcr3.jpg)
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I haven't used ipe and I've never made a bow that heavy, but here goes...Once I get the tips moving 8" or so with the long string, I'll brace the bow just so the string is taut. And that's not easy to do if your tillering string is stretchy stuff like B50, it always takes some adjusting, twisting the string up until it holds. A taut string will give a truer picture of how the limbs are bending than the long string. I keep tillering until I can raise the brace to a couple of inches and eventually to full brace of 5 to 6 inches.
I usually narrow the tips when I'm within a couple of inches of my target weight, but you can probably do it at any time.
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Looking good.takefive is,right on with the long string vs braced string. The long string pulls on the end differently, in another words the long string lies.
I would finish your width profile befor finishing your major tillering.
Then remove more first in the bent area, middle , of the limbs. These need to start bending to take some pressure from the dips.
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I actually use the long string for longer than most. The only difference between a low brace and the long string is that the tips will come around a little more when braced. That said I totally agree that you should brace it low when you can. A fastflight tillering string will really help with this one!
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I use my long string a little more than is absolutely necessary, but once I get the limbs moving to a real brace height or slightly more, say 8" or so, I'm in a hurry to get it braced. if you want to wind up with a 65lb bow, you will need a bow stringer to get it strung for a while. you have to be a little aggressive early on when making heavy draw weight bows or you will come up short. gotta get the limbs moving enough to show you something while they are very heavy. is important to recognize that draw weight is reduced by stock removal AND compression on the belly.
also, before you start bending those limbs very far you should chamfer the corners on the bamboo backing and establish facets on the belly, or at least chamfer the corners on the belly as well. rounded corners much less likely to raise a splinter
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Really good point on chamfering those corners. After each session before putting back on the tree.
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Really good point on chamfering those corners. After each session before putting back on the tree.
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So I have just been working on the bow for a few minutes here and there the last few days. I haven't gotten too far, and I wanted to post a picture before I got too far along to get some feedback.
I realized I was making a huge mistake, I was considering the travel of the tips of the bow along a linear path my travel distance. I realized just a few minutes ago that when referring to to an inch of travel, or travel overall, they are referring to the travel of the string at nocking point. Or at least I think they do.
Now that I think about it, I'm not really sure what I need to go off of for my travel distance relative to brace height and draw length. If someone can straighten me out I would appreciate it. I just can't sort it out in my head right this minute, I don't want to pull the bow limbs too far by accident because I got my measurements mixed up.
Anyway, sorry for all my confusion, for some reason I'm just not thinking too clearly today. This is what I've gotten to so far. The first pic is the relaxed bow for reference.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4603_zpswl2p5yfz.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/DSCN4642_zpsc4fmnl0h.jpg)
Besides needing to take a little more off the left limb to get them traveling the same distance, they are almost an inch off right now, what else can you guys see?
I've been focusing more on the middle 2/3 of the limbs like you had said MacBow, staying away from the fades and the last 6in or so of the tips. And I have been rounding all my edges each time, but I appreciate the tip none the less.
I'm at around 65# where I'm drawing right now, so still more to take off. I'm going to try and get a shorter string on it, but even with the bow stringer I made, pulling from a second set of nocks, its a bear to string. A FF string would be great right now, I've got to order some as I make my own strings. Why is that stuff so expensive, the smallest roll I can find is 1/4# and costs $45?
Anyway, I look forward to the input, you guys have helped out a lot so far. I'm getting antsy to get this thing strung and flinging arrows. :archer2:
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(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v42/macbow/image-39.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/macbow/media/image-39.jpg.html)
This picture is upside down. It shows using two boat v rollers,to make a bow,stringer. Especially good,for heavy bows.
Understand they use these at the Black Widow shop.
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From you photos it looks like the left limb is stronger because the right limb is bending a little more at the dip or fade.
Could even things up a little by scraping on the left,fade,a,little.
It is time to get a short,braced string on it.
To reduce weight most of the removal will still be in the middle 1/3 of the limb unless it starts,bending too much.
Have you read the posts on even limb timing tillering?
Best way to go.
Also have you made a tillering gizmo.
Look up Eric's gizmo very helpful when first starting out.
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I'll Take some more off of the left side, I already did a little earlier, but I need to do more and I'll take more off by the fade too.
I just tried getting a shorter string on it, stretched too much, I'm going to make me a heavy flemish twist with one end free to adjust as I go along. All I have is dacron, if I double the size will that help keep it from stretching too much?
I have read a few on limb timing/tillering including the one by Dean, tillering the organic bow, very good, although still a little over my head. I'll do some more reading, any recommendations?
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Also, it was my understanding that the tillering gizmo doesn't work on a hybrid longbow because the limbs don't bend in a nice even arc like they do with a regular D shaped longbow. Am I missing something?
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A longbow is ideal for the gizmo but you can use one on any bow. You can still get a read on if the limbs are even. I'd personally be using one.
Yes you need to brace it now. A thicker 20 strand string will help, even B50 will make a good tillering string. Once you've made it then get it stretched taught and get a piece of thick leather , fold it over the string and then rub like nobodies business to get the string hot - this will take the stretch out.
You should certainly be blending the fades into the working limb as you are basically making an unnecessary hinge there now (in the worst possible place!) and blend the tip overlays into the limb too - this will make bracing a whole lot easier.
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Agree no reason the B 50 would not work.
And the blending at fades and tips is a,really good point.
Just go slow in those fade areas, easiest place to make a hinge.
I use the gizmo on R/D all the time. Just take into account the areas that are not a true arc. Especially helps compare the fade area.
Also once you get the bow braced. Hold it and site down the side of each limb from the handle to tip and compare. You will see if there is a difference in the profile.
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As for the limb timing and tillering look up "Bowjunkie" threads
He along with RoyfromPa. Have,some,easy to understand techniques. I started using these and like the results.
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So I took and tried to do what you guys suggested and got the bow down in weight quite a bit too. I can see that the left limb is still a little stronger than the right, so I'll have to take more off that one still for the next round of scraping.
I think I can see what you guys are saying about the hinging by the fades, it looks to me like the right side has a little bit of one right at the fade. I'll stay away from the fades at this point and work the center of the limbs like has been mentioned.
I got a string on to about a 3" brace height and worked the limbs down a few more inches, exercising them 30+ times per inch, I'm at 16 inches on my grid background, which is pretty close to 10 inches of overall travel. After the next round of scraping I'm going to exercise the limbs some more and then try to get a six inch brace height string on there.
What do you guys think? Any suggestions beyond what you've already said? Here's a pic showing what I've got to.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0046_zpsu7hrspa9.jpg)
It is pulling 65# at this point
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I got a strung to a six inch brace height, or 5 3\\4" to be exact.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0047_zpsbxxuu4al.jpg)
How does it look? I can't tell why it isn't more level, the sting that is, is it my limbs or my tree relative to by background grid?
I noticed I have a little bit of limb twist on the right or upper limb. Sorry the pics didn't turn out the best, but I think you can see it bending off to the right. I'll use Roy's diagram and see if I can't get that straightened out.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/f2eadb00-c6f8-469b-a7d9-4ab3095b1f72_zps5waeuikg.jpg)
From the opposite limb
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/8c0a6330-a850-4fa1-b465-11f5b0bdcae4_zpscrl7vqkr.jpg)
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From the two shots it looks like the right fade is still bending more than the left.
I would do as you said on mid limbs blending in toward fades and,tips.
That left,fade could use a few scrapes.
At this point it would be good if you had a peg or something to lock the string at about 50 pounds of weight.
Then the tillering gizmo would really show you differences as you ran it along each limb.
A 6 inch straight edge can do the same,thing.
It will point out just where to,scrape.
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You seem to have missed out bracing it at a low brace height?
Are you pulling full draw weight yet? If not then you are in danger of coming in underweight.
You really should blend your riser into the working limbs. This is the point of maximum stress on a bow and you have a very abrupt change in thickness = bad news! Trust me on this one - it should be your next job.
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Also you shouldn't brace the bow at all when it is showing imbalance.
From now on its very useful to be drawing the bow by hand and get somebody to take a picture for you or use a timer. This is because it may well look different in your hand to how it looks on the board and the relative stress working on each limb will be different in your hand compared to the tillering board.
One more point the limbs shouldn't be even strengths - the lower needs to be a shade stronger due to the mechanics of drawing a bow by hand and the fact that your nock doesn't get nocked dead center on the string.
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That is a,good point on your riser.
It is sorta short to get a good taper into the limbs.
Now is the time to work the handle and get some longer dips.
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So I haven't had the chance to work out the last few things you guys have mentioned. I just want to clarify a few things, I should have some time tomorrow afternoon.
I use a program to overlay the images that I take and I can see what you are talking about Macbow, about the left fade bending less.
I do have a question about that, how much of the bow is considered the fades or dips, and at what point is it considered the working limbs?
The reason I ask is because I've got the impression that the fades is just the first maybe 2" where the handle tapers to the limb, and I've seen some bows where that transition is rather abrupt, and others where it is like 4-5" long. Here is a close up of where mine are at right now.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0055_zpshymuhvuj.jpg)
So based on some bows I've seen, I was thinking mine was pretty average. Not to contradict was has been said, cause you guys have a lot more experience than me, but based on the picture do you still think I need to make that transition more gradual? If so, How much? I don't have a lot of room without affecting my overall handle, so I'd like to keep as much of that intact as possible, but I'd rather have a well working bow :D
And I'm going to peg a the bow down like you said and use the tillering gizmo, I just haven't made it yet. I can see how it would be helpful, the bends and flat spots are very hard to see.
mikkekeswick I did use a short brace string, I just don't think I got any pics of it, I got the tips bending to 10" pretty quick, and so moved on to the full brace. Though I'm not use what you mean by not bracing it if imbalanced? Don't I have to brace it to check where the imbalances are? I think I'm just confused on what you mean, could you explain that a little more for me?
Lastly, I adjusted my tillering tree today to more closely match what Bowjunkie talks about in his post here: Timing tutorial (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=012442;p=2) . Deans article on tillering the organic bow says about the say thing, I just understand Bowjunkies explanation better. I had a pic and deleted it before upload, so I'll have some more pics you can give me some feedback on next time. I hope adjusting my tree like that will help me get the timing better. Being my first bow I only expect so much, but everything I can do to improve my odds can't hurt.
Sorry I'm so long winded sometimes, I'm trying to understand your guyses feedback and get this thing right. I can't wait to get it shooting :goldtooth:
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This close up helps.
I like that your transition actually goes into the core wood. That will help keep the handle in place.
The style of handle you have as is,would be great with a power lamination between the bamboo and IPE.
I'd certainly go with Bojunkie's method then you can dis regard the lower limb being stronger, just tiller,for limb timing using your own nocking point to pull from.
When you work your current handle down on the fades even gaining a,1/8 on each end of the handle would make it better.
Just get into the lighter wood at a less steep angle.
Good question on where the fade ends. Certainly starts on the IPE before it gets,thicker towards the handle. It continues till the handle is thick enough that it stops any bending I would say.
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:wavey:
I'm back.
So I don't know if anyone even noticed, :thumbsup: . It's been so long since I worked on it, at least for my memory, that I had to go read through my own posts again to remember where I left off at :thumbsup:
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Just looking at the 20" draw photo it certainly looks a little off.
But that could well be the way it sits on the tree.
If the string is tracking straight down with the fulcrum and string hooked near your expected nock point that is a good sign.
I would suggest doing all the rest of your tillering with a palm sander or just sand paper. Also a straight. Edge or tillering gizmo will show small areas of concern.
Looking pretty good.
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I'm glad to know that I'm not the only one it looks a little off to. Meaning of course that it's not just my bad eye Macbow, not trying to say your's is off too ;) .
Like I mentioned the overlaid and reversed image shows them bending almost identically. Though now that I think about it, I had to adjust the images a little to compensate for the bow not being level after I pulled it to 20". Does that mean one limb is heavier than another, or is my tree not holding the bow level? Maybe a little of both.
That brings up one more question I had. I've noticed in some guys posts, Bowjunkies is the first that comes to mind, They mention having a pivot point on the tree to balance the bow where the thumb web of the grip is. Instead of a broad flat surface like I have right now, mine would be 3 1/2" because I used a 2x4. Should I round my tree where the bow sits, or place something on top to create a smaller pivot point where my grip is? I imagine a smaller pivot point will do a better job of revealing imbalance in the limb, but at what point is it impractical? cause a lot of trees use 2x4s from what I've seen, and only a few seam to show any rounding. Though in one thread, they mentioned having inserts they use to change the pivot point based on the bow.
I guess there are a lot of ways to do it, but if forcing the bow to balance on a smaller pivot point will help me better see any imbalance, it sure would help someone like me to get a better tiller and tune. I can sometimes be a little OCD perfectionist though, wanting to get it more perfect than is practical or possible. They refer to that as a the law of diminishing returns.
Anyway, thanks Macbow.
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a couple of things; to my eye it looks the limbs are bending about the same amount, but the arcs of their bends are not the same. the lower limb is bending a bit more than the upper just outside the handle, but I like the way the lower limb is bending for being at 20" of draw, so I'd say the right limb is too stiff. still, I would stay off of the 8" below the handle until you get that correction made. I would advise against pulling the bow any further until you have made the corrections. work on that right limb. if you are 60@20", you can still make weight, but you're going to have to make the corrections perfectly, without removing any more stock than is absolutely necessary get that stiff area moving.
once the limbs are bending in the same arc, balancing their strength is as simple as removing wood evenly along the stronger limbs entire length.
having the ability to blend the working limb into the non-working handle with some finesse is major benefit toward achieving the best tiller possible. you cannot do that very well with a handle like you have now. I'll see if I can rustle up some pics to demonstrate.
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I agree on the limbs.
Wait for some pictures. I don't do much shaping of the grip area till after tillering.
If anything some shims could help with leveling. Or maybe the flat surface on your handle is not parrell to the limbs.
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So I made some good progress today. I tried to implement what was mentioned, I hope I did a good job. It looks to me like it is bending well, and as far as I can tell I was able to get rid of the stiff area you mentioned J.F. Miller. What do you think?
I decided I may go a little lighter than the 70#s I was originally shooting for. Based on the reading I've done, a 55-60# bow will still take down some big game. And those few extra pounds will make a big difference on the length of my practice sessions. I was wanting originally to make the heavy weight hunting bow that will be my go to for the next years, But decided right now getting more practice in will do me better. All the practice will help me build up some more strength anyway, so I can use an 70-75# bow for an afternoon, instead of just for 20-30 arrows. I guess I'll just have to make me another bow before too long :) .
Here is what the bow looks like progressing from braced relaxed to what draw I'm at as of tonight, that being 24", at 24 I'm pulling 62#s.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0059_zpsmjvken10.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0060_zpst4pjazd3.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0062_zpsofgvsjyd.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0064_zps6repiwon.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0066_zpsvv2jwhmv.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0067_zpsrwurn5qa.jpg)
Any thoughts?
I'm hoping to get the tiller about done tomorrow and to start shaping the handle. When I do I'll work to make the fades more gradual like several people have pointed out, I should be able to make that transition less drastic without affecting the handle I was looking to get.
Thanks for your feedback, it's been helping a lot. And sorry if I've forgotten to do something you mentioned, did a bad job of implementing it, or just plain choose not to do it for whatever reason. I of course mean no disrespect and appreciate the help and patience as I learn.
Chris
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Chris, first of all I think your certainly getting the idea.
On the weight take it from a guy that is a living example.
55 to 60 pounds will take,any game in the USA.
After many years of shooting heavier bows my shoulders are paying the price and I'm into 40 plus,pound bows.
Shoot a reasonable weight and shoot it well.
I suggest there is still a little room for improvement on the right limb. Maybe 6 to 8 inches from the fade is a little session arc than the left limb. Very shuttle and would not need to be address unless your still removing weight or sanding for smoothness. I can't see how well your edges, all of them are rounded. This is important,to keep any splinters at bay.
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Well Macbow, though I be a proud one, I'm still willing to learn ;) . I think the thing that really got me to drop my weight a bit, of the bow that is, though I could use a little drop too lol, is that good form is supposed to be harder to develop on a heavier bow, which makes sense. Once I feel my form is down well, and I'm shooting the groups I want, I'll revisit the weight thing, but like you said a 55# bow will take down most any large game.
To clarify you mean to say my right limb still has a stiff spot? I think that's what you mean, but I wanted to make sure, I'd hate to make a hinge worse. And I do round all my edges, but only about a 1/16th to 1/8th inch round over. How much do you do on your bows?
I've seen some bows where the whole back is rounded like a half circle. It made sense to me to keep the rounded corners as small as possible, in order to keep as much material working as possible, meaning to not make the sides too much thinner so they work just as hard as the center of the limb.
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So here we are. Not much can be done now, so I hope it is as good as I think it looks.
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_0077_zpsvytxzouq.jpg)
It is right around 65#s at the 27" mark on the tree, after working the handle down to shape, that will get me my 28" draw.
I used a better photo editor this time to overlay the left and right limbs onto each other after each adjustment, and got them almost dead on. My right limb is bending ever so much more, but the fulcrum pull point shows the limbs are equally timed/tillered. They seem to be well balanced as well, as they don't tip to either side at all, even when balanced on a point only 1" wide at the handle. I think that means they should be good to go.
I had a bit of a hinge about 2/3s of the way out on my right or upper limb, but as I worked down the last little bit of weight, I stayed away from that point and I think I got it under control. I suppose a few years of use will say for sure. Somehow when I shaped the limbs width, I didn't get them even on both sides, that's why the left lower limb looks thicker towards the tips, it's thicker to compensate for it being thinner width wise, some variance in the natural wood could be affecting that too. It isn't quite as bad as the picture makes it look, the shadows are deceiving, but I measured them with the calipers and there is some variance.
Anyway, I think she's a keeper. This is only my first bow so my experience is super limited, but I think she turned out a good as I could have hoped for. Though any comments and/or suggestions for this or my next bow are definitely appreciated.
On to final finessing, finishing, and then shooting. :archer2:
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I had a couple more questions though before I get to that point. You guys with some experience will have a much better idea as to what I'm asking than I could hope to guess for.
Question one: Right now my nocks are about 7/16" wide. I haven't cut my groves on the sides yet, just a grove along the back of the bow to allow the string to seat. As I develop my nocks along the sides as well, what is the thinnest I should to go width wise? I've read of some going as thin as 1/4", but that seems pretty thin to me.
Question 2: I want to cut a shelf, as close to center as the wood has strength for. My handle is 1 3/8" wide and the point where the shelf will be cut is 2 1/4" deep. If I were to cut to center, or just past that would make the wood at that part of the bow about 7/8" wide by the 2.25" deep. Is that enough wood based on the weight of the bow? I don't want to risk any flexing, so I'll only cut the shelf as deep as you guys feel is safe.
Those are my two big concerns right now, at least till more show up if they do. Thanks in advance for the feedback.
Chris
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I'd stay a 1/4 inch off center. Cut a wood only bow to center is asking for trouble due to the large grain violation. I'm sure it could be done but it is a risk. To cut to center and not have any worries you really need glass or similar running down the center of the riser (to eliminate any flex).
A 1/2 inch width nock is fine. So 7/16ths is fine. You could go narrower but the benefits will be minimal and you again would be taking risks - this time with stability and also making your bow bend too much in the outer limbs.
If you wanted to do 1/4 inch nocks then you should plan for it from the start with your thickness.
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Thanks Mike. I shaped the shelf tonight, rough, I'll get some pictures tomorrow. I was wondering if I could go all the way to center, I'd rather be safe on this one, being my first, I went the 1/4" from center like you suggested.
The clarify on the nocks, I think I did a bad job of phrasing my question now that I read over it. My limb tips are already down to 7/16". I haven't cut any nocks yet, just a channel or groove on the back side of the bow, the side facing away from you, that kept the string in place while I tillered the bow.
My question is, is if there is enough wood left to cut nocks or grooves into the tips? Once I make the grooves for the string, I'll have maybe 1/4" of wood width wise, if I don't make the string grooves too deep. Most of the nocks I've seen on others peoples bows have grooves on the back of the bow and down the two sides, so there are three faces the string is seated against. I'm worried I may have made my tips to thin, and so I should just stick with a nice groove along the back of the tips, and not make any groove along the sides. Does that makes sense? If not I'll take some pictures to illustrate.
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Originally posted by J.F. Miller:
having the ability to blend the working limb into the non-working handle with some finesse is major benefit toward achieving the best tiller possible. you cannot do that very well with a handle like you have now. I'll see if I can rustle up some pics to demonstrate.
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j462/bowmiller911/BBO%20static%20recurve/IMG_0605.jpg)
(http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j462/bowmiller911/BBO%20static%20recurve/IMG_0607.jpg)
having a more gradual transition from working limb to rigid handle provides adequate space to negotiate tiller in one of the more difficult and critical(imo) areas. the 6" above and below the 4" leather handle is where this negotiation takes place. depending on the bows' design, composition, length, target draw weight, etc., more or less of the glued on riser is consumed. often there is much less left that you see in the second pic. the shorter your bow, the more important this "dip" area becomes. this is an area I still tend to struggle with on D/R bows. is a little easier on straight bows.
as with any design, making the dips and flares coincide for proper mass placement needs to be considered.
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Eldon, it sounds like your tip width will be just,fine.
On the groove across the back just don't go deep enough to go through all the overlay.
The side grooves just need to be deep enough to fit the string.
The thickness from back to front which was embellished by the overlay is where the strength is.
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So progress has been slow, but steady enough.
I have started working on my arrows too, that has been one thing that has been slowing me up. I'm a little reluctant to completely finish the bow without some arrows to take out and shoot once it is. I post some pictures of those when I get them done.
I had finished the nocks some time back, but over the course of the last two days I put four heavy coats of Super glue on them to finish them up. The way I figure it, the super glue should provide a lot of protection to the tips, so if they get dragged through the dirt or if I just rest the bow on the nocks sometimes, they should hold up. We'll see I guess, what have any of you done to protect the tips if anything?
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_1053_zps1u7qwq1s.jpg)
(http://i1164.photobucket.com/albums/q571/reldon43/IMG_1054_zpsk2sqt3se.jpg)
The secondary nock is for a stringer. The superglue is still shiny, I'll dull it down to a nice satin to match the rest of the finish when I do the bow.
I have the handle and rest all roughed out, once I finish the nocks I'll start sanding on the handle area, round off any loose corners on the rest of the bow, and get some finish on it.
pics to follow :archer:
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I'm interested to see the full draw now :)
You could lose some weight off the tips but for a first attempt they will be perfectly functional.
Well Done!
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I'll get a pic of my drawing it when it's all finished, I've definatly lost some of my glued in relfex, but the tiller is still pretty close to the last pictures I posted.
I haven't done anything else with the tiller since I got it to weight, the limbs are bending almost identically. Only problem I could see is a little bit of limb twist on both sides, though it's hardly enough to see. After doing some research on this and other forums, I decided to leave it as is and just keep an eye on it if it gets worse. Limb twist isn't spose to be as much of a problem on longbows from I've read. But I'll watch it, though I think it's actually gotten better as I've shot it in a bit.