Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Troy D. Breeding on April 02, 2015, 12:58:00 PM
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It's your fault Roy....
If you hadn't been showing all those good times in your shop and really nice bows I might have never given it much thought.
Anyway, This one ain't going to be quite as fancy as the one's ya'll build. It's been a truck load of years since I built an all wood bow, so this one will be a straight limb. No fancy R/D.
.125" Quarter sawn hickory back, .100" walnut core and quarter sawn osage belly.
1-3/16" across the back, 1-1/2" back to belly, 68" NtN. Would have made it longer, but when you only have 37" material to work with for the belly wood the "Z" splice has a way of reducing the length. Still should be plenty long.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3446.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3446.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3447.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3447.jpg.html)
After layout and cutting off the excess with the bandsaw.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3449.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3449.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3450.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3450.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3451.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3451.jpg.html)
After cutting away the excess and sanding smooth I thought it would be limber enough to start floor tillering.
Looks like I guessed wrong. The width was reduced from 1-3/16" at the end of the fades to 3/4" at the tips.
The thickness of the limbs from the end of the fades to the tips is now 7/8" down to 5/8" and it will barely bend when attempting floor tillering.
Looks like I'll need to trim the thickness down alittle more. Only wanting somewhere between 45# to 50# at 28".
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You go ole timer.. :) Be keeping an eye on ya Troy.. Get er done.. Looks sweet thus far..
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Good luck with the project, looking good. Bue--
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Finally got the limbs thin enough to floor tiller. The tips are now in the 7/16" thickness range. The thickness at the fade outs is about 9/16".
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Cool, I will be looking forward to seeing the finished photos.
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Cool, I like that one.Keep us posted please.
Mark
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Looking good Troy! I like the style. Simple, but classic American longbow. Can't wait to see it bending a bit!
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After getting the bow to floor tiller, I filed in the string grooves and short braced it. The tiller looked good so I braced it a bit higher. At this point it's braced 6-1/4" back of bow to string.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3454.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3454.jpg.html)
Here is a close up of both limbs. To me it needs to bend a bit more in the mid section of the limbs. What ya'll think? Am I right?
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3455.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3455.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3456.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3456.jpg.html)
Been so many years since I made an all wood bow the tillering is tough. Nothing built in like the glass bows.
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That looks ok for a 6 1/4 brace height. It's gonna bend more when ya pull it ole timer... Remember? :)
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Yes sir, I scraped just a tab more and raised the brace to 7" back of bow to string. Checked the tiller on my hash marks and did a little more tillering to make the outer half of the limbs bend a little better.
I'll upload the new pictures after while. Better half wants me to run to town with her and there ain't no need in trying to get her to think the bow is more important.
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Looking good so far :thumbsup:
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Here is what it looks like after raising the brace to 7" back of bow to string along with a little more scraping.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3457.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3457.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3458.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3458.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3459.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3459.jpg.html)
Checked the distance from the belly of the bow limbs to the back of the string at all the hash marks right limb to left limb. I marked the hash marks every 2" along the limbs length starting 8" from the center of the riser.
Hash mark:
#1 6-1/4"RL 6-5/32"LL
#2 6-7/16"RL 6-1/32"LL
#3 6" RL 5-27/32"LL
#4 5-3/4"RL 5-19/32"LL
#5 5-7/16"RL 5-1/4"LL
#6 5-1/32"RL 4-27/32"LL
#7 4-9/16"RL 4-3/8"LL
#8 4-1/16"RL 3-7/8"LL
#9 3-15/16"RL 3-9/32"LL
#10 2-13/16"RL 2-5/8"LL
#11 2-1/8"RL 1-15/16"LL
Right limb at this point will be the upper limb and left limb will be the lower.
After being stung for well over 2 hours here is what it looks like.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3460.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3460.jpg.html)
The limb tips are showing a little string follow. That was to be expected.
I took a picture right after unstringing, sighting down the side of the limb. Looks like it might have taken a bit of set somewhere around the #1 and #2 hash marks.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3461.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3461.jpg.html)
I just checked the bow and it has recovered some of the string follow, but it still shows some of it just past the #1 hash mark.
So far I'm happy. I'll work on it more tomorrow.
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Back to the shop for more tillering.
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That area that is taking a little set in the last picture seems to coincide with where those rings are running out sharply on the belly side, aye? I wouldn't remove any more wood from there for a while.
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Yep..
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That's exactly what I was thinking. Looks like it needs to bend more from mid limb to the tips.
The osage wasn't the best I've ever had, but rather than wait till I found the right piece I thought I'd give these pieces a try.
One of the best osage self bows I ever made came from two pieces of wood that came from different trees. Joined them together with a piece of 1-1/4" muffler pipe that I flattened to an oval shape.
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Muffler pipe?
Is there something in the water out there in Ohio? :laughing:
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Yep, muffler pipe.
Easy to flatten to an oval shape and yet plenty thick. Takes a little time to make the back of the sleeve flat so that it really is a long "D" shape, but easy to find at any muffler shop and not expensive.
Fit the wood ends as you would for a takedown sleeve and then glue them together. Solid as a rock and much easier than doing the "Z" splice.
Never could find anything else that would fit exactly inside the muffler pipe for a poor mans takedown or i would have done that as well.
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Forgot to say it's better known as a Alabama Redneck Bow sleeve.
Only a real Southerner can come up with something that good.
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A little more scraping and a little more checking. Scraped from mid limb to tips. Braced at 7-3/4"
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3001.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3001.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3002.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3002.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3003.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3003.jpg.html)
Pulled to 20" weight at 20" at this point is 30#
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3004.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3004.jpg.html)
After looking over the pictures I could see it needed more scraping mid limb and alot more towards the tips.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3005.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3005.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3006.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3006.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3007.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3007.jpg.html)
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If I had one of this fancy digital cameras back when I made a few wood bows in the past it would have been alot easier.
No need to pull and hold while you study things out. Now I pull the bow to a certain draw, take a quick picture then study the picture. Way less strain on the bow if things ain't quite right.
After the last scraping I took a picture of it pulled to 20". It now pulls 28# @20"
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3008.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3008.jpg.html)
Since it didn't look too out of kilter I pulled it to 22". Weight at 22" is 32#
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3009.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3009.jpg.html)
Then I pulled it to 24". Pulls 37# @ 24"
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3010.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3010.jpg.html)
Here it is after unstringing. A little bit of string follow, but expected that.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3011.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3011.jpg.html)
Side view of the limb right after unstringing.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3012.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3012.jpg.html)
Still have 4" of draw length to get to. If it continues to increase the bow weight at the 5# per inch range I want have to worry about it coming in lighter than I wanted.
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Forgot to add that so far I've been able to keep it with a 1/8" positive tiller. May want to increase that, maybe to 1/4".
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Looking good. Now that it is finally getting some humidity back in the air, I need to finish tillering a bow I started last fall.
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Looks like you're gaining 2-2.5#/inch of draw. So that's put you at about 47#@28". Minus a couple pounds for set, a couple for sanding and maybe a couple for shoot in of first 100 arrows .... I think you can probably squeeze out something in the 42-44# range.
The tiller looks really good though, and youre obviously well on your way!
You gonna stain it or you keeping it natural?
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LittleBen,
That weight is about what I figured. I stated 5# per inch earlier, but meant 5# for every 2". I can always shorten the bow by a couple inches if it comes out under weight after shooting in.
I may wipe the osage down with clorox bleach just to darken it, but will most likely leave the hickory natural. This bow will just be used to tournament and backyard shooting. If I decide to make one for hunting it will be slightly heavier in weight and will be stained.
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Looking nice, Troy
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After looking and looking at the 24" draw picture I think it still needs a little scraping on the outer 1/3 of the limbs. Seems to be a tad stiff in that area.
If I can get that taken care of today it would great. Then I can work on the riser and shape the grip.
I think it's supposed to rain most of this week, so that means no shooting until I can get atleast a few coats of Massey finish on it.
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It make is look easy Troy...nice job. Looking forward to see how you will shape the handle area.
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Well,,, all I can say is $#@!#% happens....
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3013.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3013.jpg.html)
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3014.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3014.jpg.html)
I had just decided that I finally had the tiller to the way I wanted. Been working on it for a couple more hours and had it looking good all the way to 28". I had just checked the weight and it was coming in at 46#@28".
Then on the next pull to double check everything, BANG!!!
Guess all that is left is to play taps and start another one.
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if I were a betting man, which I'm not, I'd say the hickory backing is the culprit. did post mortem exam reveal the cause? hickory has broken my heart many times for no apparent reason other than it's hickory. I don't use it anymore. my osage core wood and my time is too valuable to waste it on hickory backing. quality bamboo is the only way to go, imo.
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Jamie,
I'm beginning to think the same way. I've used hickory in the past with good luck, but it was air dried, not kiln dried.
I've seen bamboo in one of the wood stores I buy from over at Charm. They have it tagged as bow backings, but wondered if it was worth trying.
I want be back at that shop for some time. It's a 3+ hour drive for me to get there.
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Too bad. :( Bue--.
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Keim Lumber?
I'd say trust your judgment with bamboo bow backing bought from the Amish, not theirs.
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Sorry, Troy.. Looks to me like the Osage had some bad grain run out right there too.
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Yes sir Roy, that's the exact spot where the limb failed. The other limb had good straight grain.
I've only had one run with bamboo for a backing and it was on a light weight bow for my daughter. Not sure what kind of boo it was. The piece was about 3" in dia. and growing in a stand of boo beside my neighbors barn. It cracked so bad while drying I was only able to get the one piece from it.
I think I've got another piece of Osage in my stack of material. If I remember right it is fairly decent quarter sawn along one side.
May pull that piece and look it over tomorrow.
I will make atleast one bow before throwing in the towel.
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Originally posted by J.F. Miller:
if I were a betting man, which I'm not, I'd say the hickory backing is the culprit. did post mortem exam reveal the cause? hickory has broken my heart many times for no apparent reason other than it's hickory. I don't use it anymore. my osage core wood and my time is too valuable to waste it on hickory backing. quality bamboo is the only way to go, imo.
Bamboo can lift splinters at nodes....nothing is bombproof.
A straight grained hickory backing will not break before your belly wood (osage or not!) chrysals. If the grain is dodgy then of course it will. You say for no apparent reason - well unless the wood was bone dry or had been exposed to moisture for too long then that reason was how the grain ran. Straight grained hickory is at least as tough as any bamboo. I've tested many backings and know for sure that hickory will not break unless the grain isn't what it should be....heck you can almost tie knots in the good stuff! Too many people use any old hickory and rely on it's interlocking grain to hold everything together. Some of the elb's I see over here make me wince!
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Sorry, Troy. That sucks.
There was a lot of ring runout in that osage. Sometimes that matters.
It's hard to say about the hickory. I've had good success with it, but I'm still using hickory backings I got from Murray Gaskins, and he sold top rate hickory for bows, imo.
When I run out, ideally, I'd like to cut my own mockernut or pignut hickory and air dry it. I work with a guy that owns a saw mill and he could cut it for me. I'd like to do the same with hard maple and white oak too, but to be honest, it's a lot easier to grab another bamboo slat from the pile :^)
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I respectfully disagree. in theory, everything you say is true, or at least is the popular consensus. My experience tells me otherwise. the occurrence of problems with quality hickory is 10 times that of quality bamboo, perhaps more. quality bamboo is more reliable in tension than hickory. I live in a place where high quality hickory is readily available in whatever grain orientation a person desires. I have used plenty of straight grained, hand picked quarter sawn Pignut and Shagbark hickory backing. none of it lasts on the back of a heavy hunting bow. bamboo does last.
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Don't give up on hickory Troy.
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Laying in bed last night I remembered I do have a few pieces of air dried hickory out in my garage. If there is any quarter sawn in that stack I may give it a try.
I've used hickory in the past with good results. Heck, I've even got a couple hickory self bows that were made out of hickory boards that were never scrapped to one ring.
I also kept thinking about other things that might have been the death of this bow.
One thing that may have been the killer was being too narrow. The blank was only 1-3/16" wide. When I tapered the limbs that made it only 1" to 1-1/8" where it blew. That width will work fine for a glass bow, but being narrow and having bad belly grain probably wasn't the best combo.
Until I get me hands on a piece or two of bamboo to I'll continue giving hickory a try.
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Interesting, Jaimie. I respect your opinion, and it raises some questions for me. Was the hickory you used cut by you, and air dried? Did you purchase it somewhere? Kiln dried? (I'm not even 100% convinced it even matters how/how much it's dried).
Do you know how long between cutting and drying and how it was otherwise cared for? I've been failed by hickory that wasnt stored properly prior to drying which degraded its integrity considerably. Can you think of any other factors that might contribute to your experiences with it other than the fact that it's hickory? Have you tried any other hardwoods that you found better suited for backings?
I had a guy try to sell me quarter sawn hard maple last week that was stained blue with fungus :(
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I will say that after thinking back about the hickory I used for the backing it didn't look the best and seemed questionable when I was grinding it to thickness.
Having made thousands of hickory shafts I have seen different properties in hickory. When I was making shafts I started noticing that different pore structure (not grain) made different spine shafts. The material that was tight pore and sanded slick (almost like it had been burnished) would often make 70+ pound spine shafts in 5/16". If the pores were more open looking (almost crunchy looking like toast) it would often only make 50# spine shafts in 11/32".
Things keep coming back to me as I play it through my mind. (Yea, yea,,, I know using something that limited is risky) but the backing I used seemed to be a bit crunchy in pore structure. I'm going to check it further today. I'll take the good limb and if it doesn't burnish smooth I may be on to something.
Still, I'm not going to blame the blow up solely on the backing since the Osage in that limb was questionable.
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Remind me not to buy lams off you anymore... JK
LMFAO :biglaugh:
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Jeff, some of it was cut by me for the sole purpose of making backing out of it, which was quarter sawn and air dried only. I've purchased kiln dried pignut and shagbark hickory boards (some from Keim Lumber, Troy) and made backing out of it. I got some from Torges way back in the day, too. out of all the hickory backed osage bows I've made that I did not sell or give away, only one has survived, and it is a terrible looking piece of rift sawn backing. go figure. I hunted with that bow a season and shot a couple of deer with it. it's retired now.
I suppose you can make anything work if you make it long enough, wide enough and low enough in draw weight. I prefer relatively shorter, heavier bows for hunting that are pretty well strained as close to the limits of the material as I can comfortably make them, and hickory simply does not work in this capacity for me. the ones that didn't blow apart all lifted repairable splinters until I got tired of repairing them. except for the one I still have, that is. I'll never bother with hickory again unless I have no bamboo at my disposal. Bamboo and osage were meant to be together. like peanut butter and jelly, I tells ya. :)
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Jamie,
Guess different people liking different bows is what makes the world go around.
Personally, I don't like short all wood bows. I've got one bow that is a 60" Osage with sinew backing and snake skins that spits an arrow out with authority. I've taken several deer and hogs with, but it's just not my pick of bows. Too much finger pinch. All my other self and backed bows are 66" or longer.
The bow that I always considered my go to bow was a 72" solid hickory bow that was only 1-1/2" wide. It was made from a hickory board with pretty rough grain run outs. I glued on a handle and steamed in a little reflex on the tips.
Different strokes for different folks.
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I've had good success with hickory, but I also bought whole boards, carefully selected, and used only the cleanest straightest pieces for backing. I except essentially zero runout.
I a, not really worried about quarter, rift, flat sawn etc ... I assume all the hickory I've had was kiln dried as it came from the lumberyard. In rough sawn form.
Haven't has bamboo problems either though, so maybe I'm not stressing either enough to know.
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It's very easy to say straight grain but to find a tree with truely straight grain is like looking for a swimming pool in the desert. I have also cut trees and resawn boards into backing strips. A tree can look plum straight yet have spiral grain - rendering it useless for backing strips. I always split them first before taking it to a saw.
If you have had a lot of hickory break on you then it wasn't good hickory. It really is as simple as that. I've made a good few hundred laminated elb's the vast majority with hickory backings and i've had very few failures (I used to run my own business making and selling bows hence the numbers). As Ben says it also really matters how the wood was treated after being cut. hickory can start to decompose very,very quickly if left outside for any length of time.
As for your bows being strained hard...well that's also true for any well made wooden bow. They all need to be strained close to the limits to make a good bow in the first place and as I said the belly wood will chrysal before a good hickory backing goes bang. Every time I got a new hickory board I would make a quicky test to destruction' pyramid bow - these all chrysalled before the backing blew. Eventually I gave up on doing that because I learnt to read the grain well enough that it wasn't necessary.
Also ask yourself why out of all the wood available in the world are axe handles made from hickory?
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Jamie, like you, I like my bows leaning toward the short side, narrow, heavier in draw weight, radiused bellied, almost always osage, and yep bamboo and osage are a special match.
I have used hickory on lesser woods with success, sometimes very thin hickory, and burnished it... which may have helped???
My problem with using wood boards for backings is possible degredation, but also, like Mike alluded to, if I didn't see it standing and split it myself to know how the grain runs, how would I know?
Understanding that grain runout and ring runout are two completely different things, how do we know that a quarter or rift sawn piece hasn't had its grain violated enough to be a problem? I suppose we could try to buy a piece long enough or wide enough that we can cut a piece off and do a test split.
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axe handles are made out of hickory because it is cheaper and easier to come by than osage. :D
but seriously, I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from using hickory for backing a wooden bow. it can and will work if all of the above stated criteria are met and the maker can deliver the goods on tiller. Still, I consider it a risky proposition, at best. one that I no longer care to take since I have a good supply of strong, straight, lightweight US grown bamboo at my disposal.
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I've made 8 hickory backed bows from kiln dried lumber and only one of them lifted a splinter. I've made two bamboo backed bows and one of them lifted a splinter. I have no idea why. Maybe it was operator error or a very small defect in the wood or boo that I didn't see. Either way, it doesn't make me shy away from using either again.
I read a thread recently on another site where a veteran, very experienced bowyer posted a selfbow that broke on him while he was doing the final tillering. One after another experienced bowyers chimed in about bows that had broken on them. These are guys who always post perfectly tillered and crafted bows. Sometimes it just happens?
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Sorry your bow broke Troy. Did you determine why? Will you post pics of the back where it blew? I've made lots of hickory backed bows and some with pretty bad grain but never had a backing failure.
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Pat,
The backing was a good clean straight grained 1/4 saw piece of hickory.
After looking things over I think the belly wood is the culprit. There was a grain run out and wave right where it blew.
The thing that gets me is the limb that blew looked to be some of the best tillering I have ever done. I pulled it again to take another look at the other limb. It seemed to have a stiff spot that I wanted to work on.
Then Boom!!
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Pat,
As you can see the grain in the belly wood wasn't the best.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3016.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3016.jpg.html)
The backing looked pretty good.
(http://i1119.photobucket.com/albums/k632/arrowman2/DSCF3015.jpg) (http://s1119.photobucket.com/user/arrowman2/media/DSCF3015.jpg.html)
You will notice the rips from belly and the back went across at an angle. I think it was just a bad call using that piece of Osage.
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Breaks like that usually follow the grain. It looks to me that it lifted a splinter at the beginning of that tear on the back. You have to pay attention to not only the end grain and grain on the back but also the grain down the side of the backing strip. It is still pretty rare for hickory backing strips to break. Like I said before I've never had a hickory backing fail.
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May be wrong, but I don't think the backing was the problem. The piece of backing that's missing popped completely off the back. Unlike the belly which blew into several pieces.
Not only that but I had just checked the back by looking and as well as running my hand along the complete length to see if I could feel anything. I've had grain lift on the back of self bows in the past and found it simply by running my hand down the length of the bow.