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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: highpoint forge on March 04, 2015, 03:03:00 PM
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Roughing the final shape of this initial venture into bow making and trying a 50" stave. Well I yanked a big chunk off one tip:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/02293995-DD6D-4B72-85CC-D00BB5BD206D_zpshdk5cs2u.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/02293995-DD6D-4B72-85CC-D00BB5BD206D_zpshdk5cs2u.jpg.html)
Obviously surface checked badly but do I just start at the lowest ring where the big chunk tore off and hopefully get beneath the checks? I'm thinking if the handle is too thin afterwards I can build it back up with another wood or a block of Osage....?
Not sure here...
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Man alive! Your really hitting it hard for a first bow. I know people who have made 20-30 that wouldn't try that jewel. Those checks look gnarly from here. Usually if they stay within the bows lines your okay, those are too close to an unfinished edge. Meaning when you clean up and shape your profile you are going rasp right into them. And yes, you do need to go down yet another ring to get your tear out gone. If you have a better stick, Id suggest grabbing it now.
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This is for my son and thought it might be fun.
Walking stick it is!!
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Yep, you are in your ring on the right side. Just get the left side into the ring and take it slow. You might get below those wind shakes/checks. You might get a kids bow out of it but you will certainly get some practice. Be on the lookout for better wood. There's bound to be tons of it nearby.
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Look at my big osage log found thread I started recently. So I started to do as you say and work back left and sucked keeps tearing on me, but I'm not giving up yet, good practice. I think my lighting needs to be better as i'm in a hard time distinguishing between the early and late wood. Also this was wood is not 100 percent seasoned imho. I'm draw knifing the whitish layer and my knife keeps diving down too deep.
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Are you using drawknife bevel up or bevel down, bevel down really helps me to keep from digging too deep.
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Bevel facing me.
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Ive read many times over about the "right" way to use a draw knife. After looking at many and using many, there is really only one right way. Bevel down as designed. I have friends who use them backwards. Its not right, but they've learned to make it work, most often. When the bevel is done as designed, you cant hardly dig in, the knife can be smoothly DRAWN through the wood.
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I've heard people advocate for a slightly dull draw knife for Osage, that way it only cuts easily in the crumbly early wood, and won't really cut into e late wood unless you really crank on it. Never tried it though ... Never used Osage, only mulberry and not very much.
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I know my draw knife well. I keep it sharp. Whether I use it bevel up or down depends on what I need from it... just like flipping over a farrier's rasp as needed, or keeping different size curls on my scraper and flipping it as needed. 'Right' is what works best for the task at hand.
When I'm hogging off bark, sapwood, and blasting down through heartwood, pulling off long and thick curls, it's usually done bevel up. When I need to use finess, chase a thin ring, work around knots, etc. I usually run it bevel down, often using tool angle and the bevel itself as a depth stop.
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Often times if you are tearing wood, it helps to turn the stave around and work the other tip first. The grain is a complex thing and can confound you so try it from a different direction.
It is also very difficult to hog wood and chase a ring at the same time. Those rings are thick so you need to thin them down before you try to chase the ring.
I usually chase the ring above the ring I want first, and quickly, bevel up. And then work with some more finesse with the bevel down. Depending on the thickness of the rings, I may thin the ring above my desired ring a little (as you should do in this case).
I also work from the ring above the desired ring into the desired ring when I use the bevel down. You can go the other way when you are hogging wood and splitting off lots of waste wood above your desired ring. Then when you get to finesse, you want to cut the wood off in a very controlled way.
I also mark the knots and other issues and skip over those when I am working more quickly, coming back later with more finesse.
And a dull knife is for splitting. Splitting is not my preference as it often leads to nearly imperceptible damage to my hard chased ring. I keep a very sharp draw knife.
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Great info there, John. I do exactly as you do.
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Jeff, Thanks. Somehow that doesn't surprise me :)
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When I'm working the sides should I use a rasp instead and should I only work a FULLY 100% seasoned stave? This wood was dead standing for years, bark was just barely clinging and brushed right off.....I'm having a much harder time not tearing the wood off when chasing a ring but can see this is not exactly a straight grained piece of wood!! I'm working in my garage under fluorescent lighting and I'm having a hard time seeing what's a ring and what's not.
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As an aside, I own the only Osage Argos longbow made by JD Berry and the face of the bow stave has checks and knots under the finish, which is why he does not like to work with Osage as a bow wood, not uniform enough. So he and I discussed this and the bow was a special project after his favorite great Dane died which was commissioned by K9 here on the forum.
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Highpoint, you took a rough road my friend... I did likewise for my 1st selfbow.... osage, standing dead for many years. It was like petrified wood, dark rust-brown throughout and I remember thinking early on that I must not be using my tools correctly as all I could remove with much effort was tiny, tiny chips, and later thinking that if all osage was equally as hard, that I probably would never attempt another. Luckily that wasn't the case and I've never encountered another one like it. 'Regular osage' works nothing like that.
Get yourself another piece my friend.
I DID manage to make a bow with that piece, and still have it.
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Im a masochist...
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I'm not sure I understand the question about working the sides as it relates to chasing a ring. I use only a draw knife and scraper almost exclusively.
I prefer to chase rings on green wood if possible. My joints have suffered enough :)
Good osage is easy to work. But it is rare. I have looked at thousands of osage trees and cut maybe a couple hundred.
Masochism is fine but keep your expectations in check. I'll credit your enthusiasm but caution against burnout and judging osage as a bow wood by the piece you are working or even the one in the bow you mentioned. And no offense to Mr. Berry but he is a glass bowyer. His goals are far different. Variations in material don't suit assembly. Creating a selfbow is more akin to sculpture where the variations are an asset. But they do force a bit more creativity and vision.
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John it was tongue in cheek sarcasm, but I never hate a challenge. With this stuff you must use what is presented albeit with creativity, no?
I'll photograph each stave I have to use and I'd love input as to direction.
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Oh, I know :) And yes, smoke 'em if ya' got 'em.
Happy to have the opportunity to learn from everyone right along with you.
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/4F4CF919-DC56-4602-A243-831B8B976661_zpsq8qruxjz.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/4F4CF919-DC56-4602-A243-831B8B976661_zpsq8qruxjz.jpg.html)
These are 50".
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/DAB68621-3B1A-4653-87BF-7516BFC72FF9_zpsf9ojvgnz.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/DAB68621-3B1A-4653-87BF-7516BFC72FF9_zpsf9ojvgnz.jpg.html)
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/FEBC4251-9ACE-41BB-ADF7-1A0103621E8C_zpszfh7bqup.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/FEBC4251-9ACE-41BB-ADF7-1A0103621E8C_zpszfh7bqup.jpg.html)
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/3164061C-376E-4B4D-AB67-39265D1737B6_zpsrew1zpcf.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/3164061C-376E-4B4D-AB67-39265D1737B6_zpsrew1zpcf.jpg.html)
These are 60"
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/3FA887F4-28FF-4BD3-A4DB-930B77A62B79_zpsuvgmpful.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/3FA887F4-28FF-4BD3-A4DB-930B77A62B79_zpsuvgmpful.jpg.html)
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/65FE3B28-9225-4BED-9728-33936C69BE13_zpsdpyo7qmu.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/65FE3B28-9225-4BED-9728-33936C69BE13_zpsdpyo7qmu.jpg.html)
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/7F69EE70-CE9E-42A3-88F9-02E4102C6EF2_zpstvngv5lh.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/7F69EE70-CE9E-42A3-88F9-02E4102C6EF2_zpstvngv5lh.jpg.html)
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/CD5CF2A9-998A-4FC2-AFD9-CDB97E00C29F_zpsrrathmfs.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/CD5CF2A9-998A-4FC2-AFD9-CDB97E00C29F_zpsrrathmfs.jpg.html)
Last two here are billets for sure 40".
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Any recommendations? Start making billets? Remove all the wormy outer stuff and surface checking and reseal?
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A couple of those look not bad.....at least from this angle.
I'd work one of them down to see how far in those checks and bug holes go and then see what you have left. I think the one that is 3rd pic from the bottom looks fairly promising.
That billet on the left looks wide enough for a couple limbs.....I'd say come over and we'll whup one up, but it may be a bit too far for you to travel :D
Pick one out, start reducing the back to one useable ring, and then post pics again when you have it closer. Seal the back with wood glue or the like as soon as you get it trimmed down....I have had osage check on the back of a freshly exposed ring even when it was "fully dry". It was "deep south" dry, but my RH here is a lot lower than that normally.
Luck :thumbsup:
Darcy :campfire:
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Darcy let me know if you want to see better pictures....I don't know where to start.
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I'd say going for a spliced billet bow is your only choice. You need to get a clean ring though. Try to get two billets that match a bit in rings etc.
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Spliced is what I want! Is there a preferred layout? I get the one ring part....
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Originally posted by highpoint forge:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/65FE3B28-9225-4BED-9728-33936C69BE13_zpsdpyo7qmu.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/65FE3B28-9225-4BED-9728-33936C69BE13_zpsdpyo7qmu.jpg.html)
This one is 60" long?
Got any other pics? That's long enough for a bendy handle, and you don't need much wood for that kind of bow.
Darcy :campfire:
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I just use a z-splice. Others advocate a double-fishtail.
http://bowyersworkshop.com/splicing1.htm
http://bowyersworkshop.com/splicing2.htm
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I believe I have two 60" pieces and I'll post pics of them.
I'll also look at the z splice...
First I need to get underneath the bore holes.
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(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/BE198418-E60B-4EEF-949D-B18B5997F338_zpsz1gclqt2.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/BE198418-E60B-4EEF-949D-B18B5997F338_zpsz1gclqt2.jpg.html)
6 of them are 50" not 60". Not sure what I was smoking that day.
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well 50" spliced will still be way more than plenty :)
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That's what I thought but for splices you pick a length, splice the rough limbs and then shape the overall bow?
Going to need flat back according to Bowyer's Workshop....plane them maybe?
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NO! Please don't plane them, unless you plan to back them with boo or hickory!
Work a couple down to one ring.....then you splice them(or use TD sleeves) keeping that ring intact.
I recommend you just work a bunch down to the first bug free and crack free(as much as possible)rings you find, then seal the backs with a bit of shellac or wood glue, and post pics again.
Darcy :campfire:
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Whoa!
I have a stave like that that was given to me as a gift. After hundreds of bows, I haven't tried it yet.
Anyway, there's info on my site including ring chasing pictures.
Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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Flatten the belly, not the back. Leave the back in your chased ring.
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Originally posted by George Tsoukalas:
Whoa!
I have a stave like that that was given to me as a gift. After hundreds of bows, I haven't tried it yet.
Anyway, there's info on my site including ring chasing pictures.
Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
George is this stuff too wavy and crazy to learn with?
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I think it is a bit of difficult stave to learn on.
I'd poly the back and get a nice straight piece for my first.
However, I took the same approach which is why it took me so long to get a first bow.
Jawge
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Honestly I would seal the backs as George said and try and locate something nice and straight to cut your teeth on.
I'm sure those pieces can be spliced and turned into a really nice bow. But respectfully, I know that the likelihood you're going to nail it on the first shot is not high.
Chasing a ring, reading the grain, laying out the bow, fitting the TD sleeve or splicing the billets together, straightening the bow, tillering .... These are all skills to develop. And each one can derail or end your project if you go too far astray.
If you've got unlimited Osage and you don't mind losing it, then forge on, but if you want to ensure that wood makes a bow, you're best advised to do a test run or two with some clean wood.
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That's exactly what I'm finding out while using dead straight Hickory for my axe handles. Hard to chuck a handle in the scrap pile because you missed it by half an inch.
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I had a 100 year old osage on my place
Dead for 15 years
twisted real bad, deep dark brown cracks, like i see in your pictures.
not good, worked my a$$ off on it
all i got was not very good billets, every piece i tried to work with had problems
It burns good
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Sounds the they are cousins....
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If you've got yourself some good straight hickory, then IMO Rees nothing better to get started with whether it's a stave or just clean nice boards.
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Originally posted by LittleBen:
If you've got yourself some good straight hickory, then IMO Rees nothing better to get started with whether it's a stave or just clean nice boards.
x2
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The hickory is in 8/4 boards about 3" thick. Monsters. My 1/3hp bandsaw is not up to the task for cutting out the rough shapes. Too much blade deflection. The rest of the hickory will become a roubo carpenters bench. Not for bows.....I sorted through all the osage chunks and kept the straight grained stuff for knife handles. Now I need to work through the staves. The twisted grained stuff just will have to be stored for another day. It is really tough to throw Osage away.
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it mike make nice lams for a glass boiw- if maybe its got some colour etc
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It's gorgeous I just have no experience with this stuff....
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49" straighter stuff:
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/FD8EFDA9-D21F-45A6-83BE-C2C639235414_zpsmeo4bcf4.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/FD8EFDA9-D21F-45A6-83BE-C2C639235414_zpsmeo4bcf4.jpg.html)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/522C28E0-8832-4520-9974-C8E7709F15A1_zpsq59rfgel.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/522C28E0-8832-4520-9974-C8E7709F15A1_zpsq59rfgel.jpg.html)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/ABD31558-F849-4C89-ACA2-6FC58D441D52_zpso9a3owwk.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/ABD31558-F849-4C89-ACA2-6FC58D441D52_zpso9a3owwk.jpg.html)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/F4770EFB-CE38-4B6A-91C7-78E2BA7E63E7_zpsvgwrnzh7.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/F4770EFB-CE38-4B6A-91C7-78E2BA7E63E7_zpsvgwrnzh7.jpg.html)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/A8927F4B-8B19-4BFF-90E4-AFE1BDF442FC_zpsfa4aa5to.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/A8927F4B-8B19-4BFF-90E4-AFE1BDF442FC_zpsfa4aa5to.jpg.html)
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Billets are pretty straight 31"
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/C6DAA316-0EBB-4176-BC0A-9BDC89959CE7_zpsd3wmvdrn.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/C6DAA316-0EBB-4176-BC0A-9BDC89959CE7_zpsd3wmvdrn.jpg.html)
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/01EF5145-49FC-488F-938E-81E297A948C2_zpswqox54i9.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/01EF5145-49FC-488F-938E-81E297A948C2_zpswqox54i9.jpg.html)
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4 more 50" quarters are all squirrely but could be cut down into 30" billets.
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Could just start by picking two decent pieces, and trying to get to a nice ring below all the bug damage. See how bad the checking is at that point, and decide if you need to chase a deeper ring.
Then you can worry about splicing. That should take you some time anyway.
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and remember what you are calling squirrely- might be an amazing character or snakey stave.
and those are great staves to hold on to- even if they are tough to work- put some pics up of the "squirrely staves"
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I already see some nice snake in some of those billets etc
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If you have a bandsaw, bandsaw them below all those checks and see if you have enough left. You may in a couple of them. I have found that checks run deeper than they appear so be careful. I have had much heartbreak working marginal pieces for longer than they deserve. But you are certainly learning so keep going.
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I do have a bandsaw. What should I do?
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I hesitate to offer specifics as I have been bitten before doing so. You can glean how I would handle it by this link: http://sticknstring.webs.com/roughout.htm
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Only problem is I do not have enough to make an entire bow from a single stave. 50" would be rather pinchy.
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Take your 2 best 50 inchers, pick out the best 36" section on each one, cut that 36" section off and do a Z splice to glue those two 36" sections together.
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Yes, billets are your only choice. 50" is too short for a full draw bow. Shortest I have made is 51", sinew backed, bend in the handle. It was my 175th bow. I would have never tried it early in my experience.
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You mentioned you had used hickory for axe handles.
Hickory is very, very good bow wood.
Can you get some?
Jawge
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Yup 4/8 big ol boards
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Straight grained?
It's a good learning wood. No ring chasing needed and you can learn to tiller.
Jawge
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Yes I can get some
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Wood World here in town has it all. It's the woodworkers' spot to get wood. That hickory board is a BEAST. I've been making axe handles. Now I wish I had a bigger motor on that saw and a drawknife bench.
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What about......20/24":
(http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g69/alexeinspruch/B345CE8B-0101-4A6E-9E90-1E78CFA9C186_zpsnna1orgk.jpg) (http://s53.photobucket.com/user/alexeinspruch/media/B345CE8B-0101-4A6E-9E90-1E78CFA9C186_zpsnna1orgk.jpg.html)
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Osage burns hot :)
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For those of us in Nosage country it's painful to hear you talk about Osage as firewood. Those would make some number of riser blocks or about 6000 arrow footing blanks ...
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Trash?
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Send me the postage and it's yours!
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I have messed with osage for a long time and seen thousands of trees. Maybe 1 in 100 are tolerable bow wood and 1 in 500 are special. The rest are weeds.
Of the trees I have cut for bows, maybe 5% of their mass is bow wood, the rest is firewood. So if my math is correct, at its best, only .05% of the osage growing is bow wood.
One can only make so many walking sticks, riser blocks, and footings with the rest of it :)
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highpoint,
Come up to Mojam and we'll send ya home with some better staves. Plus there will be plenty of folks to coach and help you get started.
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Yeah buddy.
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Originally posted by John Scifres:
I have messed with osage for a long time and seen thousands of trees. Maybe 1 in 100 are tolerable bow wood and 1 in 500 are special. The rest are weeds.
Of the trees I have cut for bows, maybe 5% of their mass is bow wood, the rest is firewood. So if my math is correct, at its best, only .05% of the osage growing is bow wood.
One can only make so many walking sticks, riser blocks, and footings with the rest of it :)
This has been my experience as well. What you have there is firewood. Honestly, I don't see many good riser blocks in there with all the deep checking. perhaps some arrow footing, pen blanks, knife handles or tip overlays. Still, if you live in a place where it gets cold, osage firewood is special in its own right. nothing burns hotter.
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Anybody want to give me the best riser blank dimension and I'll cut some out and run them through the planer. What about the young straight 8 to 10 inch thick trees in the same place as this one that literally go straight up no leaning nothing…?
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A 10"-14" osage tree is my favorite. Those are the ones I cut. I rarely cut anything more than 14".
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Go back and cut those straight 8"-10" trees. They are easy to haul out and split.
My favorite size of osage tree to cut is 20"-24" as long as they are straight and clean. They are tough to drag out but once I get them to my splitting stand they are easy to move around and work on. I can get a lot of belly splits from trees that big. It's nice to pop off a belly split, seal it, and put it away to season. No sapwood to deal with.
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8 - 10" trees are perfect...
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Originally posted by highpoint forge:
Anybody want to give me the best riser blank dimension and I'll cut some out and run them through the planer. What about the young straight 8 to 10 inch thick trees in the same place as this one that literally go straight up no leaning nothing…?
I'd be there with both my chainsaws. That's a good size for staves. :thumbsup:
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Stay tuned. Anyone have a link for risers and footings? I could turn a piece for my espresso machine hadle and my basket tamper!!
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Who is the guy to contact again for custom turned wood tamper handles and portafilter handles.