I've got a couple sunny days coming up so I'll probably start this tomorrow.
So here's the layout:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/layout%20ref_zpsgbxlabe8.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/layout%20ref_zpsgbxlabe8.jpg.html)
Materials:
Red Oak Board
Hickory Board
Titebond 3
Leather Cord
Goals:
40-45# @ 26"
Try a hickory backing
Try heat treating.
Try Inducing a bit of reflex in the working portion to counteract string follow.
Try Incorporateing everything I learned from Roy and Jeff in this thread (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=012442;p=1)
Try a more elliptical tiller as per mikkekeswick's feedback on my last bow (was straight arc of a circle)
Don't overbuild the tips so dang much as per everyones feedback on my last bow.
Plan:
Tomorrow:
Get the last few things I need.
Thin everything down to the starting thickness.
Apply heat and bend into shape.
Cut the the hickory backing from the stock while the board cools.
Adjust my tillering tree.
Glue the backing and core together.
In 2-3 Days:
Finish Cutting out the shape of the bow.
Make and glue up tip overlays
Make and glue up the riser.
In about 10 Days (weather permitting):
Tiller the bow!
The hickory is really the wrong choice to back red oak. Just get a straight grained red oak board.
If you must use the hickory bear in mind that it is WAY stronger in tension compared to the red oaks compressional properties. You would be asking for a lot of set and or chrysals.
Even red oak by itself needs to be trapped to give the belly a chance. If treated right red oak will make really good bows.
As for your profile at the end of the working limbs you should make the transitions much more gradual, when done like this (like handle/limb fades) they will be carrying a lot of excess weight. To start make the levers 1 inch wide at their base with a straight taper to 1/2 at the tips. Also the levers only need to be 1/8th thicker for them not to bend and even this can be reduced during final tillering.
Also there is little point in heat treating a lam bow unless you know how thick the lams need to be pre glue up. Even then it's much better to just pick a good belly wood to start with.
I've done the research on it, there's a lot of hickory backed red oak bows out there. 3 rivers even sells one. I'm aware that the backing needs to be thin and the back should be trapped. Going in favor of this design is the very wide flat limbs which should reduce chrysal issues if I do my job as a bowyer correctly.
Now, I do know that there is still some risk mixing these materials like this. Truth is, the bigger risk to this bow at the moment is me making a major mistake. I got the best red oak board I could, but it's not super great and a strong backing is mandatory. Yes, I could have sought out a better more expensive piece of wood, but when you factor in the odds of me screwing up, the cost benefit analysis of doing that puts it way past the point of diminishing returns. It would be nice if this bow came out perfect and lasted a life time, but that is not in my realistic goal set at this time.
I would maybe go to 3/4" at the base of the levers, but 1" seems way too fat to me. Hell, the handle, where the stress is much higher, on my current bow (modified since its thread) is only a little over an inch thick. On my current bow I've also gone for 3/8" tips and that seems to be the butter zone to me, if not too thick still.
Also, I do have a pretty dang good idea how thick the limbs need to be since I've already made a fairly similar bow. Properly heat treated, the treating should extend quite a ways into the wood (i.e., not just scorching the surface). Sure, it won't be perfect and I know that I won't be able to apply more heat treatments during the tillering process since I'm going to glue up a backing, but it should help and also give me a bit of reflex at the very least.
Well Colonel, it sounds like you know what you want to do. Let us know how it turns out.
Why ask questions if you already know the answers?!? I'm only trying to help! I've already made most of the mistakes your plans will bring you close to and your response shows me that you intend to go ahead and make them regardless. I'd like to think a few hundred wooden bows have taught me something....but maybe not eh ;)
Indeed lets see how it turns out ;)
I wish you the best of luck in your bow making journey.
I don't see any pictures of sawdust yet.. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by mikkekeswick:
Why ask questions if you already know the answers?!?
I didn't ask a question. I said, here's what I'm doing, here's why, and here's how.
I don't question your experience. What I do question is your interpretation of my goals for this project. Even if this bow breaks before I reach full draw, I will have gained a lot of experience and knowledge regarding fundamental techniques used in making a bow and that is my true goal here.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
I don't see any pictures of sawdust yet.. :)
Soon, I'm behind on this for a multitude of reasons. I've already learned a lot though.
For example, I've learned that my table saw blade is very dull. I've learned that my heat gun isn't powerful enough to do the job outside. At least not when the temp is in the mid 50s. I figured out a good way to make sure that I hit the right depth and everything is even when using a belt sander to do the initial thinning of the limbs. I've also been reminded yet again that nothing ever goes quite according to plan ;) .
Oh, one of the more useful things I learned (on an unrelated side project): JB weld doesn't stick to blue painters tape at all.
(http://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/emb/t1841.gif) (http://yoursmiles.org/t-emb.php?page=2)
Pretty much yeah. I could have just made up an excuse, but I'd rather be honest ;) .
Well that was an honest excuse. LOL
Overbuilding can be a good thing,BUT taking it to far isn't. IMO that's grossly overbuilt for the stats your intending
Overbuilt in which sense?
Length and working limb width
Looking forward to seeing it!
Come on Pat.. Only 6 days left and no saw dust yet? :)
he musta lost his gloves :biglaugh:
maybe theyre in hova's sock draw :laughing:
LOL
Been watching this one for that very reason. Too funny
Plan:
Tomorrow:
Get the last few things I need.
Thin everything down to the starting thickness.
Apply heat and bend into shape.
Cut the the hickory backing from the stock while the board cools.
Adjust my tillering tree.
Glue the backing and core together.
In 2-3 Days:
Finish Cutting out the shape of the bow.
Make and glue up tip overlays
Make and glue up the riser.
In about 10 Days (weather permitting):
Tiller the bow!
I love it when a plan comes together... :)
Maybe he's reading up?
https://www.osha.gov/Publications/woodworking_hazards/osha3157.html
AH, I'll bet he is doing this by the book... That explains the delay... :)
LOL
Really, the screwups above blew my window of warm weather.
I think that what I'll do is scratch the heat treatment, and save that for when the weather is better a couple bows down the line. Probably tomorrow, I'll glue up the back. Just going to go for some guled in reflex this time. Then, provided that sundays snow doesn't stick and monday is actually in the mid 40s like it's supposed to be, I'll get on with cutting the shape etc.
Since it's been cold, I have been working on something smaller (but still archery related) indoors while I wait for better weather though. In fact, I just finished putting some finish on it. I'll post a pic tomorrow when it's all dry.
So during that bout of cold weather, I had to quit working on this until warm weather returned (took longer than anticipated). Warm weather has returned so I've been busy working on this!
(Click all images to see full size)
So, here's the initial glue up.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/bow%20ref%2001_zpsgxgxdtov.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/bow%20ref%2001_zpsgxgxdtov.jpg.html)
Out of the form, not cleaned up yet.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/bow%20ref%2002_zpszqxp3bnp.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/bow%20ref%2002_zpszqxp3bnp.jpg.html)
Cleaned up some.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/bow%20ref%2003_zpshl194ob1.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/bow%20ref%2003_zpshl194ob1.jpg.html)
Roughed out.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/bow%20ref%2004_zpsadhmkdvl.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/bow%20ref%2004_zpsadhmkdvl.jpg.html)
Small Parts.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/bow%20ref%2005_zps4f5lv2ke.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/bow%20ref%2005_zps4f5lv2ke.jpg.html)
Much more refined.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/bow%20ref%2006_zps5jq6n5av.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/bow%20ref%2006_zps5jq6n5av.jpg.html)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/ColonelSandersLite/bow%20ref%2007_zpskftudq1r.jpg) (http://s3.photobucket.com/user/ColonelSandersLite/media/bow%20ref%2007_zpskftudq1r.jpg.html)
I've got the back trapped and am ready for the tillering tree. Unfortunately for my bow making, it's raining today and tomorrow. Friday might be too muddy, we'll see. Though, I must admit that we *really* need the rain. About 6 days back or so, we had a massive grass fire start along the missouri river just a mile or so from my house and it burned out of control for a few days. The town of elwood across the river was evacuated and parts of my city where also evacuated as the fire managed to actually jump the river. Hundreds of acres where burned. So yeah, I'm actually pretty dang glad things are wet right now.
Well, spent a lot of time with the tillering tree today. Got the bow to 45# @ 14". Tomorrow should be make or break. From there it's just shaping the handle, thinning the tips, and putting some finish on it. Hopefully more pics tomorrow.
So the tiller is done. It survived and I've taken it to the range to shoot it. It's still unfinished in that I haven't thinned down the tips, fully finished shaping the handle, made a proper string for it (just used the tillering string), or put any finish on it. Based on my initial impressions and observations, I've met many of my goals but also had some failures that I've learned from.
Goals Achieved:
So based on initial impressions, this bow shoots *much* straighter and faster than my last bow of similar layout and this is directly due to the tillering and timing tutorial linked in the OP. I don't have a chronograph, so I can't say exactly how fast it is. What I can say for sure though is that arrows that where over spined for my last bow are in the ballpark for this bow despite the fact that I haven't even lightened the tips yet and the handle is a little bit thicker.
The overall workmanship of the bow is much better than the last with a notable exception that I'll get to later. Everything is straighter and more symmetrical, and just done better. While I thought the last bow was ugly, this one has something intangible about it that I find attractive despite being very similar bows.
Using the glued in reflex, the bow sits almost perfectly flat, but just a hair reflexed after an hour and a half of shooting. After sitting a while, it gains about a half to three-quarters of an inch reflex. This is much better than my last bow which ended up with a good three or four inches, at a rough estimate, of string follow.
One of the things I thought about was that red oak is a sort of mediocre compression wood and needs all the advantage it can get. To that end, I really went to some effort to make the belly side as flat as possible in order to distribute the work along the whole width of the belly as evenly as possible. I suspect that the way my last bows belly was more rounded has much to do with the amount of set that it took.
Now, I'm happy with all of that, but it would be dishonest if I didn't cover the next bit.
Where I failed:
So there I was trucking along on day 2 of the tillering. I was at 20" or so and everything was going pretty smoothly but suddenly, I started completely misreading the tiller for no reason that I can pin down. Maybe I was just getting tired, I dunno. All I know is that somehow things got switched around upstairs and suddenly I thought the bow needed exactly the wrong thing. So I caught this major mistake at about 24". This really just didn't give me enough room to fully correct the tiller. Ironically, this is the first time the tiller didn't turn out exactly the way I envisioned it, despite this being almost certainly the only time it was really right.
So I'm thinking I may bring it down to 35# to give me a little more wiggle room, but it will frankly just never be perfect. At some point I'll have to just live with it and move on to the next, chalking that up to a learning experience.
I'll try to get some more pictures up tomorrow and finish it up in the next few days.
Nice job...
Nice