Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Troy D. Breeding on February 02, 2015, 08:38:00 AM
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Wow!! Just noticed it this morning, but there sure are a lot of threads about glass.
Has the glass gotten that bad?
I want to build a new set of limbs for one of my bows and this is almost scary.
Don't want to spend a bunch of $$$ buying clear glass only to find it streaked and unusable.
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Yep, the quality isnt what it used to be, and the prices keep climbing. All the more reason to make bows without it, imo.
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So it's funny. A couple years ago I bought some "streaked" glass from Kenny at a discount. I basically traded a bow with cherry lams to a friend for nothing because I considered it subpar with the streaks in the glass.
I borrowed the bow back from him as it shot well and I never wrote down any of the specs in my log book. He's barely shot it, and I'm thinking to myself it's one of the nicer ones I built. I looked at the "streaks" that were in the glass and they were barely visible. Nowhere near as bad as what seems to be the norm now. They don't even show up in pictures, you have to hold the bow to the light just right to see 'em. And that was stuff Kenny had culled. Funny how quick things change.
My question was how did Kenny cull them? Just holding up to the light or wetting them a little first? I think that's the answer now. Buy extra glass and pull the best pieces for the fancy bows and use the others for lesser bows. Not that glass is cheap, but the lams and other parts aren't either and then there is the labor into a bow.
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i ordered some glass from binghams- cos jim doesnt do 030 glass- i specifically asked them to check for streaks- they said they did- well it has streaks all over it- that can be easily be seen- their fault or not- i dunno- just indicative of the quality nowadays :( :( :confused:
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I get my glass From Mike at rosewood and haven't experienced any problems other than one set of it. He took care of me no questions asked. I also like the fact that I can get it whatever thickness I want.
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The glass Gordon's has been putting out for the past 8-9 months has been HORRIBLE!!!!!!!!!! The last batch was better, but still is a FAR cry from what they used to put out. I've had many conversations about the glass with Mike at Rosewood and he tells me that Gordon's is committed to returning the quality of their glass to what it was before. He has a new batch of glass coming in the middle of this month and I'm keeping my fingers crossed on it! You sure take it for granted when a product that is critical for the image of your company is manufactured how it should be....until they (Gordon's) send you a bunch of crap and expect you to continue to pay their ever-increasing price for it and be happy with it. I've been sick to my stomach over this for almost a year, sure am hoping they get the problem resolved!
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What is mike at rosewoods contact or website? Just curious haven't heard of him before
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Glad to hear that someone is sticking with it and making every attempt to push Gordon back into the right direction. I'd really be ticked to waste a good set of spliced veneers with streaked glass.
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I contacted Bingham's about this and they said the problem is in the manufacturing process, that Gordon's is working to correct it, but that Gordon's will NOT guarantee their glass. That is less than an impressive statement about Gordon's, IMO. They did say the glass is slowly improving, but that there are still some streaks present, fwiw.
Andy
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This is quite disturbing, and I think sadly the result will be a return to previous quality at a significantly higher price.
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My humble opinion about current quality of clear glass is the manufacturer should be arrested for taking money under false pretenses. 'Abysmal' would be flattering it.
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As long as we are buying the defective glass and paying a premium price, why would Gordon change anything. I have been told that they are doing us a favor by even offering glass to bow builders. Well my solution to the problem is for Gordon to get out of the way and let some else supply quality glass to our industry. I haven't offered clear glass in the past 5 years, that is the way I have coped with the problem. Black or Brown, our choice.
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It's a good thing I've developed a fondness for colored glass bows.
The last bow I made with clear glass turned out as one of the nicest bows I've made - except for the streaks in the clear glass - and that was over non-dyed maple!!! I would have really hated to see what it would have looked like if I'd have used a dark/dyed wood.
I acquired a bunch of black and brown glass and that's what I'll be using until I hear the quality of clear has improved.
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There must be something we can do about this. Does anybody know what actually causes the streaks in the manufacturing process.
After all if it used to be clear...
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Gordon Glass (http://arrowtrademagazine.com/articles/nov_07/Nov2007-GordonGlassProfile.pdf)
Here is an article on Gordon's glass.
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I'll say this... if the glass is going to remain 'defective' I may never build another glass bow... ever. Im mostly ok with that. I'm not going to buy clear glass unless it's clear... just like I don't buy "clear lumber" with knots in it.
Oh, and if they're going to raise the price significantly because they think they're doing me a favor by solving THEIR problem... again, no thanks. Keep it.
I have no interest in colored glass.
I have a few special pieces of veneers and lams I'd like to put under clear glass one day, but they can wait... I've got enough bamboo, wood backings, horn, selfbow staves, sinew, lumber and such for perhaps a hundred bows of various types that will be more unique, interesting and cheaper to make than glass bows.
Until they make clear glass that is actually clear, I'll pass on the glass.
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I received some bad news yesterday from my supplier. looks like the February shipment and the March shipment May not be in until April.
This is directly from Gordons.
They are making an effort to improve things, but this problem didn't happen overnight and it won't get fixed overnight.
I hate the streaks too, but will likely quit building bows if I have to resort to colored glass. Nothing uglier to me than a colored glass bow...but that is purely personal.
If it was so easy to build clear glass, don't you think others would be doing it? You think Gordons glass has streaks, you should look at the Bear Paw stuff.
They are marketing it as being stiffer so you don't require as thick of glass. Henry said you should try it JIm...I said, stiffer thinner glass is nice, but I won't try until it looks better. He understood.
BigJim
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Of course we can all learn to make our bows without glass.
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Kind of strange that a small producer in Sweden was able to make a100% clear glass without streaks and imperfections.
In my opinion the best bow glass ever produced. But because bowmakers bought the cheaper BoTuff---- same old story.
I consider myself lucky who still have some of the Swedish glass. Bue--.
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Buemaker, do you have a contact for the Swedish glass. You are welcome to PM me.
The best I can tell those streaks are glass fibers that did not absorb the resin completely. I already charge an extra $25 for clear glass and will probably go up to $50 in the near future if the situation doesn't change.. Nothing worse that planning out a bow with very expensive wood and finding streaks so pronounced the bow goes into the dumpster.
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I have BoTuff from 20 years ago that is clear, how come they could do it then and not now? :confused:
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Stop buying and selling clear glass, that would get their attention and maybe make them consider fixing the problem.
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If what 7 Lakes thinks is true then it is not only cosmetic but rather structurally unsound also.
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I wouldn't go so far as to say it is unsound Al. Definitely a full matrix of glass fibers and resin gives you the highest strength, as long as there is not extra resin. You want the absolute minimum resin to glass ratio to make a complete matrix. Extra resin adds weight but not strength and in the case of fixed dimensions just diminishes glass content and therefore strength.
Glass fibers are what carry the load. They are all still in the glass. The can all still carry the load as long as they are supported. In tension, this is easy. In compression, you need to keep them from buckling. Getting enough resin in the matrix to adequately support the glass fibers and tie them together is a lower bar than a full matrix that ends up being streak free and pleasing to us bowyers. The difference is something like 99% impregnation versus 100-103%. Strength-wise that won't matter to most of us, but we can sure see the 1% deficiencies.
Unless the streaking is more pronounced than what we usually post here as "bad", I don't think anyone will see a structural failure from this. It really is just cosmetic at this point imo. If you want a little added safety, put the streakier pieces on the back where they are in tension and the resin is less critical. (Besides, which side do you look at the least?)
As for everyone buying less or none until they fix the problem, I don't think that's how the world works. Companies like Gordons respond to market pressure. The market has to be big enough in the overall scope of their business model to exert the pressure. I don't think clear BoTuff is that big for them. I deal with companies like this all the time. I get the feeling that our bow glass is something that their upper management is just as inclined to walk away from as fix. Decreasing demand isn't going to make that better. Contacting the company and expressing demand for a better product instead is the way to go imho.
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Although I agree with your earlier post Al, making all wood bows puts everything back under your own control. There's a lot to be said for that. And I think LittleBen has proven to me that all wood bows can be every bit as beautiful if not more so and perform amazingly well.