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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Double A on January 21, 2015, 09:11:00 AM
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i've been research building simple bows for a while, and i'd like to start by making some board bows for my young kids. couple questions about board bows.. it seems like board bows are either bendy handles or stiff handles with a glued on handle. is it possible to make a stiff handle bow, one piece, without any gluing, just by using a thicker board? i have some thick quarter sawn maple that i'd like to use. my oldest is 7 and about 50" tall. how long of a bow should she be shooting?
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Yes you could make the bow with no glue. You would just have to cut away the limb wood more.
On a kids bow, I lean on making them a little long.
For your 7 year old I'd suggest 60 inches.
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If it's hard maple, I would say ok for a kids bow, not sure on soft maple. I would make it about 58-60 inches long.
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thanks guys. I also have some 1.5" wide red oak flooring, i think its 3/8 inch thick. would i be able to use that? some of its quarter sawn, and some not.
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A lot of us started with red oak. Keep it wide and at 3/8 you could make a bendy handle or glue on a handle. 60" sound about right. Be sure to post pics as you go along, we would be interested in seeing your progress.
James
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Red oak limbs work well at 1/4 inch thick in a pyramid shape for kids bows with glued on handles. 1 1/4 inch wide to 3/8 tips.
48" long
With the 3/8 maybe 60" long, but may come out a little heavy.
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Just got home and measure it, it's actually an inch and a half wide and 5/16 thick, I glue one up at 48 " long, just as a practice now. I have tons of this stuff hope it works have three kids and two nephews, if it doesn't I'll just get the right stuff and build them out of that. Thanks guys. I can see how this becomes a disease
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Should work well. I made about 40 of the 1/4 RO bows.
Now the grandkids have grown so I make bamboo backed osage or IPE bows.
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IHMO, macbow is right about making it long. A longer bow is more stable and easier to shoot, easier to make, and the kid will grow into it pretty quick.
For a beginning kids bow, supposing you're aiming for 15 pounds of pull or so, the handle may not require a glued on riser at all to remain rigid from a regular thickness board.
Red oak boards will make a board bow, but without seeing them in detail, we can't say that *your* red oak boards will make a bow. It depends very much on grain.
There's one thing that makes me hesitate though. Many bowyers will tell you that their first few self bows where of pretty questionable quality, didn't last very long, etc. There is always a risk of a bow breaking. A beginning bowyer's bows are much more likely to break and kids aren't easy on equipment (at least I wasn't). I'm not saying that this isn't a good idea, but I would suggest that you make a few bows for yourself first, so that you can be reasonably confident that the bows you hand your kids aren't going to break and hurt them.
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I agree on the safety, I will make double sure that anything I make is solid before they get them
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On the safety , I just pull the bow 3 or 4 " more than the youngster could pull it. Many times. Usually on my tillering tree first.
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Made some cuts and a little sanding. Trying to figure out where to make the cuts to shape the handle and the sight window
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6uzvcowhed20vju/2015-01-22%2019.21.09.jpg?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/eqyhzo3i7i7r6bl/2015-01-22%2019.21.22.jpg?dl=0
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Started shaping handle
https://www.dropbox.com/s/ehfv46wvxwqsbc8/2015-01-22%2021.11.11.jpg?dl=0
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Have you cut any taper into the limb thickness yet or is it still flat? It can be hard to tell for sure in a picture, but it's looking like it's still flat to me right? Assuming that's right, I very much doubt that piece of wood will make a bow without backing it with something. The grain is just too squirrely. Alternately, maybe you have started to taper the thickness and it's quartersawn so it's deceiving me, but I doubt it.
Then again, with a lightweight kids bow, it might, I dunno for sure.
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It's quartersawn. I have cut the limb tapers but I just realized I cut the tips to wide so I have to do it again, 3/8 right?
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Sorry forgot, I am planning to back it. What's cheap and effective? I read brown paper like package wrapping is good?
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The handle looks to be wonderfully shaped. Looks like lotsa work. Hope the tillering goes well so the shaping effort is not wasted. My handles are just roughly shaped until after tillering.
Also, re the fades ... did ya taper them into the limb thickness, or is riser block (including fades) just sitting on top of belly? If fades aren't tapered into limb ya risk possibility of riser popping off. Been there, done that. Sometimes with low-weight kid bows you're ok, sometimes not.
Good luck!
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Shoot, I don't know what you mean about tapering the fades into the limb thickness
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Tip thickness depends greatly on what style of string nock you're doing and how fine you're willing to go. Thinner is better, up until the point that they break. On my current 45# bow, the nocks are just a hair thicker than 3/8" (that's fairly conservative for the bow type) and you could certainly go a lot thinner on a kids weight bow. Then again, I could easily see a kid tripping or being careless or whatever and breaking too thin of a tip, so it might be best to overbuild them some anyways.
Re fade taper: So, you have the static handle which doesn't bend, and the working limb that makes up most of the rest of the length of the bow and does bend right? The fade is the transition area between the working limb and handle. The taper here would be meaning a smooth transition or a harsh transition. I'm with knoll on leaving the handle until after tillering. It's easier to get it to sit level on the tillering tree when it's flat. You'll see all about that soon. Also saves at least some work if the bow breaks in tillering.
Also, to be clear, when I asked about taper earlier, I wasn't meaning across the width of the bow, but rather had you thinned down the belly side of the bow when those pictures where taken?
I would really like to see a good picture of the grain on the back of the bow. Depending on how good the grain is, brown paper can work. Linen and drywall tape are similar options. If the grain's too poor, something sturdier would be in order. Rawhide maybe, or even changing up for a working backing in the form of a good piece of hickory or something. It just depends.
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I'll post some better pics. I want to make as many of my mistake as possible with this bow since it cost me nothing, I'll get them out of the way before I work on something cooler. Thanks a lot for the help guys
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(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj426/aarongreen123/7DB996AD-AA94-4BED-98A3-E524D451955A.jpg) (http://s554.photobucket.com/user/aarongreen123/media/7DB996AD-AA94-4BED-98A3-E524D451955A.jpg.html)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj426/aarongreen123/CDA0DED5-A8C8-4E28-A236-38BDCE2D222E.jpg) (http://s554.photobucket.com/user/aarongreen123/media/CDA0DED5-A8C8-4E28-A236-38BDCE2D222E.jpg.html)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj426/aarongreen123/27F60723-4CA8-4B85-8C49-BE8158C35482.jpg) (http://s554.photobucket.com/user/aarongreen123/media/27F60723-4CA8-4B85-8C49-BE8158C35482.jpg.html)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj426/aarongreen123/2293E2C3-B477-4444-954E-CB8095476136.jpg) (http://s554.photobucket.com/user/aarongreen123/media/2293E2C3-B477-4444-954E-CB8095476136.jpg.html)
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Do any of those answer the question?
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The back of the bow is the other side ;) . You know, the side away from user. That's where the most stress goes.
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I understand, though you needed to look at riser side to Answe question about the fades
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i have easy access to reasonably priced lumber, if i wanted to make something to back the bow, like hickory, can i use my power planer to thickness it down? how think would it ultimately need to be? If i backed it with Hickory (does walnut work for this?) or similar, would i then have to reduce the thickness of the limb wood? is that a drawknife time thing or gradual sanding?
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If you wanted to put a hickory backing, 1/16 to 1/8 max thickness. And this would add overall pull weight.
On red oak if you have a drum sander it is good to "tiller" reduce the limb thickness. Floor tillering should come first.
Draw knife will also work but is difficult with red oak.
If,the bow hits weight and tiller, backing with rawhide would keep the back together and not add much pull weight.
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ok cool, thanks for that, i have a ridgid spindle sander that should work great for this. can i cut an 1/8th" sliver of wood with my table saw?
is that a no on the walnut as a backing?
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Yeah, don't use walnut for a backing. Some say it makes a good belly wood, but backing I don't think anybody is recommending it as a backing.
Re Hickory thickness, bearing in mind that this is a kids weight bow, I would say 1/16" max. Hickory is very strong in tension and if the proportion of hickory to red oak is too high, it'll crush the red oak like a beer can. If the grain is good enough on the oak, it would honestly probably be better to go for a non-working backing like rawhide for a kids weight bow.
And yeah, seen where other people have ripped hickory backing from board stock on a table saw. Just be aware that the grain on a piece of backing wood needs to be impeccable. No knots and very very straight grain.
Check these out, they'll probably help.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPwZe8x7jm8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBOkMi53YwY
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thanks alot for all the help. i'll try to take some better pics of the back of the bow when i get home tonight. like you guys said, it seems like its going to come out heavy already, i'll see when i recut the tapers in the width to a narrower limb tip. kinda stuck on the handle, just have it roughed in, any rules i should be conscious not to break on handle carving?
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(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj426/aarongreen123/Mobile%20Uploads/F71CC7A5-FE65-4DBB-A997-1ECE1E844A93.jpg) (http://s554.photobucket.com/user/aarongreen123/media/Mobile%20Uploads/F71CC7A5-FE65-4DBB-A997-1ECE1E844A93.jpg.html)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj426/aarongreen123/406FBDBE-0710-4924-B302-309DE48CB3D7.jpg) (http://s554.photobucket.com/user/aarongreen123/media/406FBDBE-0710-4924-B302-309DE48CB3D7.jpg.html)
(http://i554.photobucket.com/albums/jj426/aarongreen123/67CBCD6A-30DD-4DA2-8A2C-094305D4D82D.jpg) (http://s554.photobucket.com/user/aarongreen123/media/67CBCD6A-30DD-4DA2-8A2C-094305D4D82D.jpg.html)
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Best thing to do is leave the handle as a solid block until the bow is tillered. This accomplishes two things, first it gives you a solid flat base to rest the bow on the tiller tree and secondly it saves you a bunch of work if the bow doesn't make it. For a good description of the handle fading into the limb check out Sam Harpers www.poorfolksbows.com (http://www.poorfolkbows.com) web site.
I've made a bunch of kids bows out of red oak and have had good success with them. Paper is a good backing to help hold it together. I use drywall tape.
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I see what you mean, it's gonna be a pain.
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Hey I have some old fiberglass cloth, could I use that to back the bow? I used resin with it before, don't have any left. Is there anything inexpensive to wet that out with?
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Titebond 2 or 3 will work great,with any cloth type backing.
Cloth like old jeans or camo cloths itc soaked with the glue and then wiped clean works well.
Cloth type backings are not bullet proof but keeps the back from being too dangerous if it breaks.
To give you a idea the oak board bows I made were 1/4 inch thick with glued on handles. Some even had a little grain run out, hard. Not to have some.
I would over draw them as a safety check. About 1 out of 4 broke.
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From what I can tell by photos (there's no substitute for examining in person) that board looks pretty good to me.
Given that it's a kids weight bow and the grain is pretty good, I would recommend that you go for something that won't really add substantially to the draw weight just as insurance. I can't say how applying fiberglass cloth with titebond would go, but properly using fiberglass cloth with the epoxy would add substantially to the draw weight I think.
Personally, I would go for either cloth (linen or silk), or paper. If you want protection from injury in the event of the bow breaking, put a layer of drywall tape underneath there.
On my first bow, I went with the drywall tape under linen style. I cracked its back on the tillering tree right near the end. I hoped against hope that the distinctive popping sound was just the tillering tree settling or a twist coming out of the pull line or something like that. It turned out that it wasn't, but even so, with a cracked back, I managed to finish the (bad) tiller and shoot it for about a half an hour before a distinctive white line really showed in the backing and I wrote it off as completely unsafe to shoot. If I hadn't backed the bow at all, I'm sure it would have just shattered right on the tillering tree. That I shot it for a half hour with a broken back should serve as a testament to how safe that setup can really be.
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Thanks for the feedback and advice. Are you referring to the fiberglass cross hatched drywall tape or the simple paper kind? I like the idea of backing it with fabric
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The glass stuff. Yeah, it's ugly, and that's why I hide it under cloth.
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silk works great too- its my second choice after rawhide. glass and resin will overpower the belly, on red oak, i would think- most seem to use the drywall glass weave tape and TB glue-
linen would be awesome too- and a smoother finish
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ahh thats a good idea to hide the tape with fabric. My mom is a fabric hoarding quilter lady so she has a strip of camo fabric for me. i'll go with that. will i need to thin the limbs down at all to compensate or will i have to do that anyway as part of normal tillering?
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The cloth will have little,effect on pull weight.
I would do the tillering first sand everything down then add the cloth.
I do a thin layer of Titebond on the bow back. Then coat the cloth really well and after applying smooth it out towards the edges to work out any air bubbles.
The camo cloth really works well.