Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: lockmanslammin on December 24, 2014, 06:12:00 PM
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Here's the story. I have read the bowyers bible vol.1 and watched a lot of videos and stuff online concerning the subject and have a couple questions .
I started this bow a few years ago with a hickory board. I chased a ring and ended up with enough of the board left to splice 2 billets and have about a 68.5" stave. I wish it were 1 3/4" wide but after removing saw marks off of the side it will be just over 1 1/2" I think. It looked borderline to me as far as thickness down the limb so I got another hickory board and glued it down with titebond 3.
Question 1: can I call this a hickory self bow? Or because I added wood to the belly does it have to be described as a hickory backed hickory?
2: I'm guessing heat bending is out due to the glue layer?
3: due to narrower than optimal width for a hickory bow can I still get a 50+# bow out of it by leaving it a bit long like it is, and leaving in full width for most of its length. I king of wanted to have the last 6" or so of the ends narrowed and unbending.
4: given the above info, what would be an optimal thickness to start at for filtering? I have a bandsaw, so the cutting out part should be simple.
The third shot is thickness at the handle.
thanx for any help,
Chris
(http:// [url=http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1217.jpg.html] [img]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1217.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
(http:// [url=http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1218.jpg.html] [img]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1218.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
(http:// [url=http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1219_1.jpg.html] [img]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1219_1.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
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I will give them a shot...
Question #1 - you currently have a laminated "stave" so hickory backed hickory would be more accurate. With that said, if your last picture is the thickness from back to belly, you have plenty of thickness and I would think most of the belly lam you glued on will be gone by the time you are finished - other than in the handle.
Question #2 - After you cut out to thickness with the bandsaw your glue line will be gone so I would think you could still heat and bend. Are you wanting to put some reflex into it?
Question #3 - Full width to mid limb then taper to 1/2" - after finishing down to 3/8". Or go with a pyramid bow - either way - should be able to get 50 or close to it if the board is good.
Question #4 - What do you mean by "filtering"? Board bows I have made I cut to 5/8 thickness.
Here is a good build along - http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000122
good luck!
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You have a hickory backed hickory. Had you known you could have added a bit of reflex at glue up. You can reduce the back to 1/8" thick before you start tillering. The back needs to be evened up anyway. Keep it full length and keep the width full to half limb like Mitch suggested.
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That's good advice from Mitch and Pat. I'm just finishing a hickory bow from a stave (66" long). Mine is a bit lighter than what you're shooting for, 42#, but it ended up 1 1/2" wide at the handle and 9/16" thick at the fades. I trapped the back a little as well.
Hickory is a bear to heat bend IMHO. I steamed the tips and flipped the last 6" about 1 1/2" but lost most of it between tillering and shooting it in.
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You'll have a hard time heat bending this glue up. Many glues will release with heat and even if it could bend the glue line would restrict the bend I think.
What glue did you use? If it is one of the Tite Bond glues you can separate the backing from the belly with heat. TB glues release at 150 degrees.
Start at one end, heat it and force a screw driver or wood chisel between the back and belly and separate the two as you heat the wood. Go to the fade and start on the other limb and work it in to the fades. With the belly having a splice at the handle be careful not to get too much heat at the joint.
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Originally posted by lockmanslammin:
due to narrower than optimal width for a hickory bow can I still get a 50+# bow out of it by leaving it a bit long like it is, and leaving in full width for most of its length. I king of wanted to have the last 6" or so of the ends narrowed and unbending.
I'm not an expert bowyer by any stretch, but I thought I could clarify one thing for you here. If no other change is made to a bow but its length, shortening the bow increases it's pull weight, not the other way around.
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Wow, lots of quick replies.
Osborn, when I chased the ring on the back board, I lost thickness towards the one end, and when I cut it lengthwise and spliced it I put the thin ends towards the ends. Plus it has a small amount of humps and valleys down it so I think it might have a small amount of the belly lam. left here and there.
The heat question was more of curiosity about the glue loosening, which everybody says it will, so I won't be doing that, but for my first bow, I don't need to complicate things anyhow...lol.
"filtering" was my stupid spell check, it should have been tillering. And thanx for the dimensions, especially the thickness to start at.
Pat B,
The back is slightly un-even, but I painstakingly chased a ring down it which is why it's crooked. I have read that hickory isn't as picky with ring violating, but it was a learning experience to do it, and I figured it is just extra insurance. That being said I will only be removing wood from the belly. It's just going to be an odd duck with a thin belly lam and a thick back lam. As far as the crookedness/slight twist, I guess that will just increase the leaning experience to try and deal with it.
Take five,
Thanx for the reply, nice to know what thickness you ended up at. Btw, what does "trapped the back" mean?
Pat B,
If the heat will melt the glue, I think I will just leave it alone, and maybe try reflex in a future build.
Colonel,
I guess the rational I was using for the length, was that with a longer bow less bend is required to get a particular draw length. So I could get away with leaving more wood on the belly before it is over compressed, and up the draw weight. In this case my weak link is width, so thickness can change. Although I totally agree with your thought process, "if no other change would be made, but length".
Thanx for the insights,
Chris
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Trapping is just rasping some wood off along the top side of the edges. You can take a few pounds off the bow that way and it's not a bad idea with a tension strong wood like hickory, where the bow's back is stronger than its belly.
Keep us posted and good luck on your bow!
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That makes tons of sense. I was wondering about something like that, knowing that it's tension strength is better than comp.. I think I might do that as well, it would also reduce moving weight and increase efficiency maybe? Might be best to do before getting too far through the tillering process?
This whole thing is going to take me a while to finish with the 4 1/2 month old twins that my wife and I have. I don't have nearly the "playing in the shop" time I used too...lol
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You can trap it later during tillering if you're having trouble getting down to the weight you want or if you're sure you have enough thickness, you can do it right off the bat. On the couple I've done it seems to drop the weight just a few pounds.
My daughter is grown up now, but I remember well those nights of just a couple hours of sleep when she was a baby. Hang in there; it gets easier. :)
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All right, more questions guys. So I used my trusty Stanley bedrock 606 plane and straightened one side and then reduced the belly widthwise on the table saw on both sides, and did end up at 1.5" width. I have drawn on an 8" stiff section for a handle/arrow shelf. I'm figuring the very dead center of the bow will be where the meat between my thumb and index finger is, so I drew a curve there to carve out, and then 5/8" above dead center drew in where I will carve in the arrow shelf. I may even glue another piece of the hickory board on the belly for added thickness at the handle area so I can have more fun crarving out a curvy handle and shelf without worrying about strength.
I was wrong about ttt length earlier in the post, it is actually 70", so my remaining working limb length is 31". I marked both ends at 15.5" from the tips and tapered to a 1/2" at each tip.
So assuming this meets with approval so far, I have questions regarding thickness. Since this isn't a normal board bow with a flat back, since I took it down to a single growth ring on back, and the ring has some humps and a little twist on one end, marking thickness wasn't super simple. What I did was use a marking gauge and drag it down the side marking it at 5/8" from the back all the way down on both sides. So the thickness cut line follows the ring curves. Then I will cut just outside that line with the bandsaw, while holding the stave at a slight angle so I end up with a shallow pyramid shape on the belly which I will rasp off and connect the cut lines carefully.
After which I will start tillering.
Mainly my question is, will this plan work so far? Any glaring mistakes anyone sees?
Woodworking I have done... Carving I have done... tillering will be the "never done it" part here, so if my plans will get me too something tillerable, if that's a word I will be a happy camper.
Chris
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Sounds like a plan to me. Good idea to cut outside the line and at the angle you described.
The 8 inch "stiff" section would include the fades. Generally, a handle is around 4" - leaving 2" fade on each limb (this varies from person to person and bow to bow). As you cut your limb thickness down to the 5/8" thickness you will want to rough cut in the fades. I usually draw a pencil mark to show where I want the fades and like you cut outside the line and then go to a file.
Good luck.
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Ok, I didn't have the stiff section including the fades... I figured to get the pressure exerted by my hand and the arrow shelf really close to the center, the bottom 4" was for my hand and the top 4" was to make it equal. Would you just make top limb longer then, or raise the spot for the grip and shelf to make room for the fades? I'm glad I asked before hitting the band saw today.
Chris
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I make kind of an odd handle to begin with, so I'm hesitant to give advice. I cheat my hand placement down about an inch from dead center on the bow. Don't ask me why, 'cuz I don't think I can explain it. My handle isn't centered side to side either because I like to take off more wood where the arrow pass will be, but I still want 7/8" handle thickness to be safe. I'm one of those "let's get the arrow closer to center shot" nuts.
Here are some pic's. Follow along at your own risk. ;)
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/handle2_zps0a3fec80.png)
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/handle1_zpsd5064f54.png)
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/handle_zpse6a6297a.png)
My "shelf" is a leather tab or a small piece of wood glued on before I wrap the handle.
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Or how about a fun experiment. Have my cake and eat it too. I could leave the placement of everything, add more thickness and hide the bottom fade under the handle.
If I'm correct bringing the handle and arrow shelf towwards the archer a bit would be similar to putting a small reflex in the handle in a way. What do ya think?
Chris
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1236.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1236.jpg.html)
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Those are some purty curves takefive. I think I'm kind of trying for the same thing. But with a shelf instead of a tab.
Do you understand the term center shot as meaning center of the bow widthwise or centered heigthwise? Or can it be used for both?
Chris
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I mean widthwise, but I think it would be too dangerous to go true center shot on a wooden bow. On 1 1/2" wide limbs, you'd have to make the arrow pass 3/4" wide. Even if you made the handle thicker, I'd worry that the top limb would twist at the fade and break. Better to leave the handle wider and shoot a little weaker spined arrows to compensate. Hope that makes sense.
If you wanted to make the shelf at the exact center of the bow heightwise, in effect you'd be making the bottom limb shorter. Lots of bowyers have done that, but I haven't found a reason to give it a try. Hoping someone who has will chime in.
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I shouldn't use the term center shot really, as more what I'm going for heightwise and widthwise is just getting closer too center shot.
The weaker spines arrow makes sense.. make up for the paradox. I won't be using a release either, so that will help with paradox too.
Btw, I'm full of questions, and I appreciate all the spoon feeding. I know how question filled noobs are often looked upon on forums.
I also know "failure is a good learning experience", but I would still like to avoid it if I can...lol
Thanx again for the help everyone, this has been a warm welcome to a forum I just signed up for.
Chris
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I might even be able to try my hand at knapping some points to shoot with this project. I was telling my step dad over Christmas about the build and he gave me some stone to use (his late father was a rock hound). From left to right it is snow flake obsidian, goldstone, and two chunks of mahogany obsidian. The two flakes up top are normal black obsidian. And he gave me a couple antlers for tools. I think I might practice with some glass before I bust into these cool rocks though. Yay Christmas.
Chris
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1242.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1242.jpg.html)
That photo didn't do my favorite piece on the right any justice...
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1244.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1244.jpg.html)
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I don't know anything about knapping, but those are some cool looking stones.
As far as bow making goes, definitely ask a lot of questions, especially when you get to tillering. You'll get some answers on here. I've only been making bows for about 2 years now and I'm finding out that I still have a lot of questions and there is always more to learn.
Never made a handle like your drawing, but I think you'd want to make the bottom fade longer and tapered like the top one, if for no other reason than to keep it from popping off.
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I can sure run it up under the handle farther. That was more of an idea sketch so it would be easier to see what I was talking about than a final draft. There should be very little pressure on the bottom portion of the handle anyhow, mostly consentrated on the top. All of the wood in the handle will be good strong hickory too, no decorative wood. I'm sure it isn't original, but it will be the first one I have seen. Wish me luck.
Chris
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@lockmanslammin
That drawing of your proposed handle looks really nice, but I would advise against it on your first bow based on the following:
1: A lot of the less experience bowyers seem to make their tiller as good as they can, and then designate whichever limb is stronger as the bottom limb, as it can be hard to gauge how it's going to turn out until it's finished. That overhang would force you to make that decision from the outset.
2: I'm not saying it can't be done, but I would advise against cutting into the back of the bow like that. If it where a takedown bow, that would be different.
Unrelated to the direct question, but relevant and learned from experience: If you're going for a rigid handle, I would recommend that you avoid doing much shaping on the handle, except for working in the fades until the bow is nearly done and making the belly side flat. If you plane the belly of the handle flat and work it just to where it sits level on your tillering tree, the whole tillering process is a lot easier to work with in the meantime. Additionally, if you screw up in the tillering process, the wood just can't take it due to a hidden defect, or whatever, and it breaks, that at least saves you the effort of doing a whole lot of carving that won't pay off anyways.
Again, I'm by no stretch an expert bowyer, but those are my thoughts anyways. And if someone with more experience wants to say I'm wrong, I defer to their judgement.
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Keep us posted and good luck :thumbsup:
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Colonel,
Excellent advice, which I am both going to follow, and at the same time not follow, kind of. I'm glad you said it because I would have probably roughed out the handle shape when I made my initial thickness cut and taper cuts. However after your advice, and having seen instructional videos explaining the wait till later to pick the top plan, I am changing up my plan of attack.
New plan: cut enough of the fades in to do the trick, on both sides of the handle, symmetrically, so either one could still be the weird undercut one. Then I can still pick the strong limb later on in the process. Additionally, taking your advice and making the belly of the handle sit nicely on the tillering tree (which I have yet to build).
I don't know why but with most things I build I feel an irresistible urge to stray from the norm in some way. Ussually in an attempt to improve the design in some way. Funny thing with bows is, that it's pretty hard to improve on a design ten thousand years into the r&d process. I guess I will just have to settle with weird in this case...lol.
If I luck out and am able to pull off the basic tillering process, the real trick for me will be tillering the slight twist out of the one limb.
Tonight I'm going to cut out and glue on the final layer of wood for the handle and glue it on. With any luck I will have time to rough out the shape tommorow, after I snow blow and shovel.
Thank you for the insight,
Chris
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With the help of some Sierra Nevada pale ale, and some tite bond 3, the last piece of hickory is glued and clamped in place. The yellow stuff is painters tape so I don't have to wipe up all the drips. Got that little nugget off of a YouTube video of a bowyer I don't recall who at the moment though.
Also, and not really related to this post, but I found this video really interesting on the properties of wood glue if your interested. Just do a YouTube search for "can you squeeze all the glue out of a joint?" There are some interesting results. Matthias wandel is one of my favorite youtubers. Anyhow ttyl,
Chris
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1245.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1245.jpg.html)
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Handle undercuts/transitions cut, tapers cut to tip, and thickness roughed out. By the way I bought a surform "file" and a halfround refill for it, and what a piece of crap. The half round cutter for it slides sideways and pops off the handle, even after meticulously aligning with its cheasy holder and tightening it thouroughly. Any of you guys experienced this?
Chris
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1251.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1251.jpg.html)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1249.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1249.jpg.html)
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I had the rasping blade break on a Surform and the replacement blade for it seemed like it was pre-dulled. I went to Woodcraft and bought a Shinto rasp. Much better.
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Surforms will work, but not the best tool in the box - never used the half round on one. I also like the "Shinto" as well as a nicholson 49 rasp. They are well worth purchasing.
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Sad really the level of tool that Stanley is ok with putting they're name on lately. I bought a Stanley plane a year or two ago and had to spend a few hours lapping the base of it to get it even close to flat. It was totally concave, total disappointment.
On another note this beast is working awesome. I found it in a drawer left by a previous owner of my house. Depending on the angle you use it, it will leave a super smooth surface or peel long tendrils of wood off in a hurry. The only way it would be better is if one side was convex. In fact I'm going to start having to wear gloves to use it because it is slicing up my front hand while using it.
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1258.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1258.jpg.html)
Also, I have run into a little snafu. I have a pretty small shop (9'x20') and with a decent bench, a table saw , tool boxes and shelves, etc. I really can't figure out a spot for a wall mounted pulley style tillering tree. I may have to come up with a folding dual pulley tree that you just set on the floor . I will have to whip up a drawing and see what you guys think.
Chris
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Well, I am close to trying a low brace. I purchased the 8 dollar walmart luggage scale so I would be sure and not over stress it when bending it to check tiller. It was under about 50lbs of tension when I snapped these pics. It is taking me a while because I am being overly critical after each rasping. I got pulleys today also to set up a tillering tree.
If anyone sees an issue that I don't see chime in and let me have it.
Here is the pics,
Chris
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1291.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1291.jpg.html)
(http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o75/lockmanslammin/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1292.jpg) (http://s117.photobucket.com/user/lockmanslammin/media/Mobile%20Uploads/IMAG1292.jpg.html)
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Looks good to me. Do you have a Gizmo tillering block? Using one helps to keep that nice even bend thru the tillering process.
Make sure to round off the edges of the limbs.
Good work so far :thumbsup:
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youre getting the best advice out there- the only thing i can add, is: to not draw your bow back on a tillering stick, and leave it there all loaded up , while you take pics etc.
i avoid tillering sticks now a days.
this excessive loading, more than a few seconds, literally; can lead to excessive set (esp. hickory) and possibly breakages!
set up a tillering tree with a pulley and a long rope- best for exercising the bow, and viewing from a distance- to get better perpective.
just my .02c :D
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Thanx takefive, I don't have a gizmo, but I have watched videos on it. So far I have been carefully eyeballing it. I have had to take a lot more off of the outer half of each limb than the middle to get it where it is. Having that big flat uncarved handle has allowed me to lay a long straight edge on it to judge one limb against the other, which has been handy. I have been chamfering the belly edges so they don't split out from the rasping, but I still need to smooth the back edges.
Next task is to put together a pulley and rope tillering tree, and order some b50 to make a string.
Chris
This has been fun, I have wanted to make a bow since I was a kid. The twinned up sticks I made back then we're fun, but hopefully this one turned out a little nicer...lol.
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All over the jig fujimo. I took that stick out as quick as I could, I have read about that problem. I have been carefully to not pull it past its intended final weight though.
I appreciate all the help guys.
Chris
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Here's a link for Eric's Gizmo. It's been a big help for my tillering.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047
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Regarding the drawing of the handle profile I posted at the end of page 1, I was wondering if it will be safe to carve the small curve into the back of the bow where I have it drawn?
Chris
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I think it would be okay as long as your handle is thick enough.