Maybe you who know more (everyone) can help me understand the following philosophy:
So many people go with the philosophy of 10 lbs. per lb. of bow weight to be OK with their arrow setup.
What difference does it make about the bow weight. If the weight of the arrow is so important, which it certainly is, why decrease the arrow weight requirement as the bow weight decreases.
For example, if arrow's "bone busting threshhold" or the standard recommendation is 650 grains then it is "650 grains".
At the same time, in the same breath, why would a 50 lb bow shooting 10 gr. per lb. of draw weight (500 grains) be the recommended thing to do. Or a 45 lb bow shooting 450 grain arrows, etc.
This seems to me to be contradictory. Either a specific grain arrow is the more correct recommendation or it isn't.
A specific grain arrow per lb. of draw weight just doesn't make any sense. That philosphy simply puts all bows with the corresponding 10 grain/lb. draw weight on the same playing field. And that is certainly not true.
Any explanation is welcome
Richie
I believe that all charts and recommendations must begin somewhere. From studies thru trial and error what we have here is a starting point.
There are exceptions to every rule but the bottom line is that we have a starting point. And to the curious, now the fun begins!
Richie,
The 9-10 grains/pound recommendation is intended to achieve a balance of acceptable trajectory, shooting qualities, and impact energy.
Glen
The difficulty in this hypothesis comes when you have a bow with not exceptional cast that likes heavy arrows, like an osage cored longbow versus a bamboo cored bow of the same design. The slower bow even though it would not be as affected by arrow weight does not have the cast to shoot a stiffer arrow. Then your choices get into slower recovering hard woods and suddenly a whole raft of variables come into play. Trial and error fun times.
As laddy mentioned, each bow handles arrow weights differently. The 10 grains per pound of draw weight will get you close.
Here is an analogy for you:
A mean little kid stands at the street with a bucket full of rocks of various weights. With an evil gleam in his eye, he picks a large rock from the bucket and chucks it at your picture window. It is too heavy for him, so the rock falls on the lawn far short of the window. Undeterred, he picks the smallest rock from the bucket and fires away at the window. The rock hits its target but isn't heavy enough to break the thick glass. Finally the persistent little turd pulls a medium sized rock from the bucket, aims for the upper half of the window and puts the rock right through the middle. After pausing briefly to survey his work, the little peckerhead beats a hasty retreat. :wavey:
Okay, that was a long analogy, but the point is the total weight of the arrow needs to match the cast (not just the draw weight) of the bow. Like the nasty neighbor kid, you will have to experiment a bit to find the best combination, but 10 grains per pound of draw weight is a good place to start.
The mean little kid should have snuck closer to the window, threw the heavy rock, and broke, not only the window, but the coffee table on the other side too!! :eek: :D
30...I do understand your point. That has to do with getting a matching arrow based on deceent trajectory, not too heavy, not too light for shooting purposes. It has nothing to do with what it takes to penetrate an animals body. And that is what the intentions are when the bone busting threshhold is recommended to be 650 grains.
It seems like the recommendation or standard to go by should read something like this:
The bone busting threshhold should be a 650 grain arrow traveling at a minimum of 140 fps.
TO ME that makes more sense because it doesn't matter what the bow weight is....you just need to get THAT arrow going THAT fast to get the job done..period.
However, a strong shot out of lighter weight bow even with a shorter draw and lighter arrow can out penetrate the slower flying heavy arrow if it is not flying clean.
Richie,
It depends on the job at hand. If you are hunting whitetails (the most common big game animal in North America) 650 grains is more than sufficient. If you are after Cape Buffalo a 650 grain arrow is minimal (personally, I'd prefer a 500 grain solid at about 2500 fps :D ).
I try to shoot them where the bones aren't. Still, arrow weight is only part of the equation. The broadhead is also critical. Ashby also says the shaft material is critical to penetrating heavy bone (he prefers wood).
Good topic anyway!
Molson :p
:bigsmyl:
oh yea I fully understand all the other factors that go into getting good penetration. Not my point.
For example a common question that comes up is:
"What arrow weight should I use with my 50 lb. bow to hunt elk?"
I have seen answers that suggest 10ish grains per lb. of draw. (500 gr.)
And other answers something like...."you need at least a 650 gr. arrow for elk."
Again...the bow weight is irrelevant if the bow can send the proper weight arrow at the proper speed.....not because it is a certain grain per lb of draw.
Draw weight is irrelevant. It just so happens that most low draw weight bows can't get the job done.
oh well...that grain weight per draw weight is just irrelevant to me (other than the Black Widow warranty)
BTW...I shoot about 11.5 grains per lb. of draw.
Richie, you want a double. That way you can shoot a 400 grain arrow for trajectory and when it arrives it can be 700 grains.
You have to pick a balance for how and where you hunt. I am willing to give up some weight to get a little better trajectory out to 30 yards since I do a lot of open country. Still, I want at least 550 grains out of my 63# bow. With a good two blade and if I avoid the shoulder, I get enough penetration and still avoid the fat rock trajectory.
I have wondered about the same thing Richie.......in my mind a 600 grain arrow out of a 50# bow is better than a 500 grain arrow any day when it comes to penetration.
Trajectory means nothing unless you are using a reference sighting method, and those are fine too-use what works for you.
And even then, trajectory is pretty much non-existant at 15-20 yards with a decent equipment choice.
I think Fred and the gang were looking for a 'marketing simplification' when they came up with 10 GPP.
I think 9-10 grains per pound is about right. That gives me the most proficency from the bow without sacrficing speed or trajectory. Some bowyer recommend this for their bows, on the average. It works for me. :-)
I think the 9/10 grains rule is about maximizing the performance of a given weight bow. A 500 grain arrow out of a 50 pound bow is probably the best match of speed, balance and penetration. Yet that being said, it's till only a 50 pound bow and that's fairly marginal for elk for example. Certainly, if one was only expecting a 15 yard shoot, it would be perfectly fine to shoot the 650 grain arrow out of the 50 pounder. As many have said, your talking about a rule of thumb and not a specific case by case example of what works best.
As we learn more about arrow penetratoion through experments such as Dr Ashbys we learn more and more that in order to get the total picture of arrow performance you have to look at all the aspects not just one or two. AS was said before a statement like "10gr per pound" is only ment to get you in the ball park of trajectory and penetration. You cannot compare a 30lb bow 300gr arrow with a 70lb bow 700gr arrow in penetration.
In the same respect you can't just say a 650gr arrow will always work. Try shooting that from a 30lb bow. Dr Ashby was just saying that 650gr was the min threshold to break heavy bone.
Even if you make a statement like 650gr arrow going 150fps is enough to ... You are still leaveing a lot of info out, what point, what arrow how much FOC.... AS Asby has observed if a point or arrow fails (bends or breaks) your 650gr arrow at 150fps will still not be enough.
Just remember general statements are just that. They give you an idea of what is going on but not the whole story.
The 10 grain per # of bow weight is for bow effinceny you have to choose the correct arrow weight/speed a 40 lb bow is not going to shoot a 650 as fast or as efficent as a 65
I'm not all that sure what this topic is about but ... aside from broadhead efficiency and arrow spine/flight, I wanna use as heavy an arrow as possible at as fast a speed as possible for medium/large game.
"Heavy but fast" - that's an oxymoron that begs compromise, and each of us needs to figure out that equation for a given bow's draw holding weight.
Most bows are happiest when mated with heavy arrows, and I won't go below 10gpp for a deer/hog hunting arra. Lighter than 9gpp and the bow limbs and riser may have a problem absorbing the excess energy that won't transfer to the arrow, and yer bow hand will know that real quick.
YMMV.
I like about 11 gpp and have shot standard FOC until reading Dr. Ashby's report. Now I have ultra high FOC arrows on the brain. Gotta figure out how to maintain my 11 gpp and get the 25% FOC. But that's what summer is for. I will be a lot more comfortable with my 54# bow for elk with this arrow.
Now to get me to go to a 2 blade single bevel instead of my WW. That will be a different story.
So when you go 650 gr. remember it's not just weight, but balance and arrow flight also.
Mike
I'm about the same, Mike - 11gpp and 24% FOC, 29" carbons out of 55# holding weight, WW or Snuffers.
I'm using a 4x4 high back burned fletch but I like what JC's using and will experiment with a low profile 4x4 burn.
I think you are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist. Unless you are hunting elk, moose, or African animals, a well-matched arrow with sharp head is going to give you plenty of penetration. 9-10 grains per pound is going to be a good match out of most bows. If you wanted to hunt elk with low poundage, then you might need to load up a heavy arrow and accept very short shot limitations, in order to get enough penetration. But for general use, a 650 grain arrow out of average bows (45-50lbs) is akin to trying to pull a trailer full of wrought iron with a Nissan Sentra.
So to restate what I thought from the beginning...
10gpp or any other # of grains per lb. of draw is hogwash when speaking of efficient penetration. It is only a romantic aspect of arrow trajectory and flight beauty, which is only a few nothces above hogwash.
I understand. thanks
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
So to restate what I thought from the beginning...
10gpp or any other # of grains per lb. of draw is hogwash when speaking of efficient penetration. It is only a romantic aspect of arrow trajectory and flight beauty, which is only a few nothces above hogwash.
I understand. thanks
I don't think anyone on this thread posted what ya just typed above.
I can only reiterate/paraphrase what I said b4 ...
Aside from using an efficient and sharp broadhead, mounted on an arra of sufficient spine with good flight characteristics from yer bow with you shooting, I think it's wise to launch as heavy an arra as possible with consideration of the game yer hunting and the average shot distance.
Too heavy and arra for a given bow holding draw weight will reduce arra speed and limit yer effective shot range. Choose wisely and within yer physical limits.
YMMV, but it shouldn't.
Diamond Paul,
"Unless you are hunting elk, moose, or African animals, a well-matched arrow with sharp head is going to give you plenty of penetration."
I agree...I personally am well aware of what it takes to get good penetration on an animal. HEAVY AND FAST. That is all me. That is not my concern personally.
My concern is the recommended arrow setup for penetration that is circulating is flawed.
Especially because SO MANY hunters seem to be using as little bow weight they can get by with.
And if any # of grains per draw weight is recommended it is wrong.
Maybe there could be an accurate formula devised for calculating a better RECOMMENDED bow/arrow setup for penetration (aside from broadheads and flight issues). Something that would result in....
The decrease in bow strength being directly correlated with the increase in arrow mass to a point. That point being the flat line of the curve or the bone busting threshhold. Then the arrow mass would stay stable as the bow weight increases.
I am just thinking on paper now. :confused:
I know I need more to do but I am waiting on a land closing so I can take off for turkey season.
Sorry guys. :help:
Rob...that quote is what I am saying not anyone else specifically. That is exactly what I think for any bow with less strength than about 60 lbs.
Where did the 650gn number come from? Why is that the magic number?You sure would not like shooting a 650gn arrow from one of my 40lb bows unless you were shooting fish. :D There has to be some point where you draw the line on arrow weight so you can shoot beyond spitting distance.A heavy arrow that you can't hit anything with it more useless than a light weight arrow you can hit your mark with.There is much more to penitration than arrow weight.It is a combination of proper flight,proper shot placement and a good choice in broadheads.Numbers are great to talk about on the internet but the longer you kill things with arrows the less importance you will see in them. :bigsmyl: jmho
My wife shoots a 45# DAS bow and 500 grain arrows. I make her arrows, as well as my own, with about 200-225 grains FOC. For both of us we have experienced pass thrus on the deer and bear we hunt. I believe that when it comes to designing a hunting arrow it is important to use high FOC, especially if the arrow, like my wife's, are going to be on the light side. I am sure that if her 500 grain arrows were made using weight tubes instead of heavy heads her heavy headed arrows will out penetrate the same arrow with the weight tubes. Bob Morrison has worked with heavy FOC arrows for a number of years now and his findings were that the heavy FOC out penetrated the same weight arrows without the FOC factor. I guess what I am trying to say is that the total arrow weight is not the only factor....it has to do with where the weight is, with weight up front being desireable.
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
Rob...that quote is what I am saying not anyone else specifically. That is exactly what I think for any bow with less strength than about 60 lbs.
Please help me understand what yer trying to say, 'cause I'm just clueless at this point.
I'm going to take a guess at what he's thinking. If your shooting a 50# bow and your arrow weights 550gr, that's a good arrow set up (11gr pp). Now you shoot that same arrow weight out of a 65# bow and now it's to light. 550gr is 550gr..
I hope I'm on the right track......
I think the 10 grain per lb. recommendation has more to do with the longevity of the bow than it is a recommendation for maximum penetration.
A lighter arrow will use the bow's energy less efficiently. But that energy has to be absorbed somewhere...namely the bow. That's why a bow will be noisier with a lighter arrow, and a heavier arrow will do alot to quiet a bow down.
My Turkey Creek is a little noisy with the 580 grain (11.6 gpp) GTs I just tuned for it, but was whisper-quiet with the 730 grain (14.6 gpp) ash arrows I tried. Of course, the heavy ash arrows had the trajectory of a sash weight out past about 15 yards.
I'm sure that the extra energy being absorbed by the bow has got to have some long-term affect on the bow, just like using a FF string on a bow without the nocks being built to handle it. But are we talking about 20 arrows? 100 arrows? Thousands of arrows?
Doug (from Turkey Creek) has a disclaimer on his warranty that states "Use of arrows weighing less than eight grains per pound of draw weight
can damage your bow and will void your warranty." I'm sure most other bowyers have a similar disclaimer in their warranty.
Richie...I get what you are saying, and it IS hard to convey...I've tried it here many time with failure.
A 650 grain arrow IS a 650 grain arrow, and it has a certain amount of energy depending on the speed it travels......the bow is OUT of the equation when the arrow is in flight.
A 650grain arrow going 175 FPS has an 'amount of energy' and the poundage of the bow is irrelevant as far as that 'amount of energy' is concerned. The 650 grain arrow reached 175, but it has no clue what bow got it there, but it still has the 'amount of energy'.
I think what Richie is saying IS......
We should be looking at the arrow weights and speeds for TRUE data of the power an arrow has, and the '10 grains per pound' is not as accurate as a measurment.
45# bow and a 450 grain arrow at 175 FPS - OK
Same bow model at 65# with a 650 grain arrow at 175 FPS - OK
Same 10 grains per pound but NOT the same penetraiting energy...not even close.
Again, I think Richie is trying to seek more accurate arrow weight and speed data for penetration to achieve what he needs, and by measuring arrow wieght and speed he's going to come much closer to true data than just going by the 10 grains per pound.
I hope that made sense, cause I've run this horse through here several times before with no luck.
Personally I shoot about 12-13 GPP; but somebody please tell me about the empirical evidence any bowyer would use to discern if you have been shooting 7 GPP or 9 GPP.
Below is an excerpt from the Part 4 Update. Hopefully, it will help clear up the meaning of the threshold.
******************
"NOTE: Some folks seem to misinterpret the "Heavy Bone Threshold" to mean that only arrows of this mass or greater ever penetrate heavy bone, or that any arrow above this mass always penetrates heavy bone. This is incorrect.
The Heavy Bone Threshold is merely a point of arrow mass where the data indicates an abrupt and marked increase in the frequency of heavy bone penetration. It is present for all broadheads tested, of all types, and is consistently near a mass of 650 grains; ranging from approximately 625 grains for the high MA single-bevel broadheads, to approximately 675 grains for some low MA broadheads.
Above 'threshold value' the probability of heavy bone penetration abruptly increases for all broadheads tested. However, the increased frequency is not equal in either degree or amount for all broadheads. Some jump from virtually zero to 10 or 12 percent, while other might jump from 20 or 30 percent to 65 or 70 percent. In all but extremely massive heavy bone, and when arrow-integrity remains intact, the best overall-design broadheads show frequency jumps from 85 or 90 percent to a full 100% frequency. Broadhead type, bevel type, tip type, main blade profile, broadhead MA and ferrule profile are all strong influencing factors.
For fresh in situ bone, the Heavy Bone Threshold is a definite and persistent, thoroughly repeatable entity. Testing into both 'old bone' and extricated fresh bone proved equivocal, showing poor correlation to in situ results. It is suspected that changes in composition influences 'old bone' results, and absence of supple support from cushioning collateral tissues influences extricated-bone results. Irrespective or cause, these media do not yield outcomes consistent with that shown by fresh, in situ bone.
For a given broadhead, the Heavy Bone Threshold shows little change throughout a fairly wide range of impact forces. It is theorized that this is because the Heavy Bone Threshold represents a time of impulse which acts ('pushes') sufficiently long (time wise) to exceed the structural limits of a heavy bone's supporting matrix; more so than the level of 'raw force' applied. A loose analogy might be: how an armor piercing round applies the impact force it carries is far more important in penetrating a tank's armor than is the level of raw force it carries."
******************
Some recent testing on several fairly fresh-kill (but somewhat more than 30 minute limit usually employed) Georgia whitetails, conducted by Wesley Mulkey with a couple of those 'C-bows' and a series of arrows from 450 to 777 grains, stringly suggest that the threshold persist for whitetail heavy bones too; the head of the humerus/scapula, scapular ridge, hip joints, pelvic girdle and vertebral bones (as opposed to the spinal joints) - even at the very high impact force levels he employed in these test. A 'fresh set' of in situ bones was used for each shot, so 'prior damage' did not affect outcomes. The threshold level appears approximately the same as that shown by buffalo ribs; somewhere between 625 and 675 grains. Hopefully he will collect more such data next year.
For the same BH and like arrow setups, at HIGHLY DIFFERENT impact force levels the 'baseline' penetration rate for a given BH might be SOMEWHAT different below the heavy bone threshold, BUT ONLY MODESTLY; far less than most would expect. Despite their slight difference in 'baseline' penetration rates, at the heavy bone threshold of arrow mass A SIZABLE and ABRUPT INCREASE in the rate of heavy bone penetration is manifest for each.
Having arrow mass above threshold does not guarantee heavy bone penetration. Lots of variables effect the final penetration rate. However, for all broadheads, your ODDS of penetrating on a heavy bone impact gets FAR better when mass is above the heavy bone threshold; for the BH you use. It's there for arrows traveling 119 fps, and those traveling way over 200 fps.
Hope that helps clarify,
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
I think that clears up why any # of grains per lb. of draw has NOTHING to do with penetration.
It is a specific grain arrow at a specific speed (aside from broadhead and arrow flight)
QuoteOriginally posted by Richie Nell:
I think that clears up why any # of grains per lb. of draw has NOTHING to do with penetration.
No, not for bows above 65# if you go by the 10gr/# rule....
Yes, I would agree with Doc's hypothesis that the threshold weight is 650gr...he's got too much data for me to argue with in that regard.
But, for me, I don't choose my arrows solely on how well they penetrate...a major factor yes, but not the exclusive one. I typically shoot arrows in the 550-600gr range out of my lighter (57-59#) bows because I like the trajectory afforded of those weighted arrows out of bows of those weights. And, just for me again here, increasing the odds of hitting the spot I want (by improving trajectory and therefore improving vertical margin for error) on thin skinned game, is worth the potential tradeoff of slightly decreased penetration by losing 50-100gr.
With my heavier bows (63-70#), 600gr+ is the norm, but again, only because I like to balance my preferred trajectory with arrow mass.
Out of all of my bows (lowest 57, highest 70), I have found 9.4-9.8gr/# to give me that best compromise. Now, all of these are typically 12-20% foc, so that fact cannot be overlooked: To date, with Trad gear, using this gr/# and high foc rule of thumb, I have yet to have a complete passthrough on an arrow that hit a big game animal. Purely anecdotal but until that stops happening, I'll keep using it on the animals I hunt. Your mileage may vary...
Hook me up with an Aussie buff hunt Doc and I'm sure you can totally convert me to your thresh hold weight :goldtooth:
That's interesting JC. When I got my Brackenbury Quest this year, I called Bill to ask him a few questions. He inreturn asked me what weight arrows I would be shooting out of it (57#@28") I responded with 10Gr per pound, He informed me that with his testing results, 9.2gr to 9.6gr is what performed best. Very close to your results.
Desert...
"He informed me that with his testing results, 9.2gr to 9.6gr is what performed best."
What did he mean by "performed"?
richie
JC..you say not for bows above 65#s.
Bows above 65# should be fine. That is 650+ grains.
Don't you mean NO to bows less than 65#s?
Ex. 45 lbs shooting 450 grain arrows.
TOO LIGHT
I assume that 650 grain number to coming from Dr. Ashby. I think he might argue that a 650 grain arrow from a 45lb bow might penetrate better than a 450 grain arrow from same bow, even though it would be flying at a slower speed. Probably true. But a 450 grainer (10gpp) will have a more useful trajectory, will absorb enough bow energy to be pretty quiet, and will penetrate sufficiently on the type of game 45lb bows are typically used for. Once the head comes out the off side, additional penetration is not a necessity.
Well said, JC.
For me, it's all a compromise of arra weight and arra speed, balanced by keeping the GPP no lower than 9 and using at least 20% FOC.
I want an arra that exhibits a minimal 15-30 yard trajectory compromise.
Considering 10gr per pound of bow weight a heavy hunting arrow, while paying no attention to what the actual weight is, is nothing more than socialism for bowhunters.
Set up being identical, a 400 grain arrow from a 40 pound bow will never equal the killing power of a 600 grain arrow from a 60 bow. Never... not at any range.
I do not understand "useful trajectory" as it pertains to hunting. My son has a 40# longbow which will happily shoot 600+ grain arrows all day long at 25 yds. It takes perhaps 5 shots to adjust to this bow at that range. At 15 yds, his maximum hunting range, there is no difference in trajectory and no meaningful difference in speed compared to a 420 grain arrow. There is a huge difference in how hard they hit.
Extending range by lowering arrow weight does not equate to effectiveness in the field. It seems to me, the exact opposite is true when using lighter weight bows.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Richie Nell:
So to restate what I thought from the beginning...
10gpp or any other # of grains per lb. of draw is hogwash when speaking of efficient penetration. It is only a romantic aspect of arrow trajectory and flight beauty, which is only a few nothces above hogwash.
I understand. thanks
That is basically what Rob is saying....he shoots an arra that has the trajectory he wants
rather than a minimum grain weight for penetration.
That is my point and what most folks are doing.
There is either flight romantics, which makes arrow weight irrelevant or:
650 grains is 650 grains
I would say "useful trajectory" means that it works more easily at more distances that a slower arrow does. Some people feel comfortable taking shots at more than fifteen yards, in which case it is easier to hit with a flatter shooting arrow. If you like to shoot 3-D in the down times, you spend less time looking for arrows when you encounter the occasional thirty yard target. I guess what I'm saying is that you should strike some kind of balance between fence post and needle when choosing the proper arrow for your needs. I think Dr. Ashby's studies are great, but I also think they have driven some to believe that you need a lead pipe with an ice pick on the end in order to shoot through things that don't take much killing, i.e., deer. I hate to see people thinking that average game animals can't be killed without chucking bricks at them.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:
I want an arra that exhibits a minimal 15-30 yard trajectory compromise.
Rob...I think what Richie is trying to say is IF that IS what you want, then the GPP or bow weight really doesn't matter.
Example...lets say you want a 650 grain arrow that meets your comment above, which for example 175 FPS. You can get that from a #55 ACS or a 65# Hill bow...you pick, and the GPP is completely different. Either bow is getting you there, but the GPP is not the standard, the "I want an arra that exhibits a minimal 15-30 yard trajectory compromise." is achieved 'as your standard' whether you want to shoot a lighter ACS or if you are a die hard HH fan. The arrow doesn't care which bow got it to its flight specs, so the GPP is irrelevant.
OK....there, I ran the horse through again.
GPP means only one important criteria to me - DON'T GO TOO LOW for a given bow holding weight. Other than that, I don't care about GPP as long as my arra speed is good, and if it's not good enuf for me at 15-30 yards then I've gotta change something.
To me, it's not just about GPP or speed or stability - it's all a compromise of the parts and performance and each of us gets to set our own standards.
There is a big difference in the trajectory of 420gr vs 600 gr out of a 40# bow - even at 15 yds.
Run it threw a ballistics calculater.
The differnce is enough to cause a poor hit if your "instinctive eye" sees 13yds and it's really 18 - very common in the woods.
My shooting at unmarked yardages is most accurate with an arrow speed around 185fps. This allows me to make the best shot I can, therefore maximixing recovery. I choose my arrow wght accordingly, 8.5 to 9gr out of my 50 to 53# bows - they are very quiet. Goal is to hit the hair in front of the vitals with a scary sharp broadhead. Do so and the rest takes care of itself.
I will never be shooting a bow powerful enough ( as is the case with many if not most) to bust a 650 gr+ arrow thru a shoulder ball socket, and I have no plans to stop hunting because of it.
Steve
Exactly Rob!!! :thumbsup: Saddle UP!
I've got different standards for different game, and it ALL has to do with arrow weight and speed.
Take my whitetail set up....its my standard go to arrow weight and speed for the trajectory I prefer.....
Now, when I hog hunt, I 'prefer' to up my weight by 100 grains cause I'm not going to shoot at a hog farther than 20 yards cause the goodies are tricky...so the speed don't matter really, but the extra punch does.
When I went to WY to chase antelopes, I wanted to gain 10 FPS due to the perspective out there where I might shoot farther than it really looks to me being use to eastern woodlots. So, I used my fastest recurve, and lightened my arrow...cause lopes don't need the extra punch. It worked like a charm.
I matched my game to the speed and weights to get the job done....not to GPP. And like you said, I never got close to being too low.
Like when you ask water buff hunters what you need to get through....they'll tell you 900 grains @ 170 or better....they don't tell you 10 grains per pound.
IMO, GPP are basically foot notes on a balance sheet.
QuoteOriginally posted by Terry Green:
... IMO, GPP are basically foot notes on a balance sheet.
Yep, works for me ... now where's them HOGS? :D
Well said Diamond Paul, clarified much of what I was trying to say right there!
Whooowheee Molson...socialism? Dang, we're just talking bowhunting here man. Useful trajectory is in the eye of the bowholder...what you consider fine others may not. No one is saying you HAVE to use a particular weight...even Dr. Ashby's comments are SUGGESTIONS. No socialism here as far as I can see.
Richie, what I'm saying is there is no hard and fast rule. Forgive for being blunt but you seem to have an axe to grind and want to prove the 10gr/# guideline as "wrong" for some reason. It's just a rule of thumb...mainly from bowyers who don't want bows to blow up from people using arrows that are too light. 10g/# is not as much of a penetration rule of thumb as much as it is a bow longevity one. Use it if you want, discard it if you don't. Even the 650gr arrow is not a hard and fast rule....out of 25#, it ain't gonna bust no bones! So what's the fps threshold w/650gr arrow....we'll have to wait till Doc gets enough evidence to support that fact. Right now, we simply don't know. However, I know, that my arrow out of my bows, will zip slap through anything I've shot at...and it usually ain't even 10g/#.
So here's the brass tacks from my point of view: My son will be shooting a 45@28 hi-po longbow this deer season, he actually will be drawing approx 26+. I will have him shooting arrows approx 500gr for deer...because at that bow weight, I personally think that's the lower limit for deer, just my opinion, your mileage may vary. But with that weight, he knows the trajectory and he can sho nuff hit what he's aiming at (at least without fur ;) ) His shots will be relatively close (I'll be in the stand, limiting him to what I feel he is comfortable with at the time) at smaller deer (our southern yearling does are not large in body). I feel completely comfortable that this is an ethical setup with the broahead we have chosen (and you can bet it's gonna be foc of 20%+). 10gr/# is not applicable from his lower end of the spectrum, in my opinion. But, it is applicable in the 50+# bow weight category for whitetail, again in my opinion. If, for whatever reason, we run into issues with penetration out of his setup, we'll go heavier. But I would rather him hit exactly where he is aiming than worry about another 150 gr and him miss by 2". But that may be just me. Useful trajectory here is defined as what he hits most with, even after practicing with each differnt setup.
Chad Jones has killed numerous, P&Y whitetails with arrows that weigh far less out of bows of the same caliber....I can't argue with his obvious success. We agree on different minimums...but we agree to let each other to our own opinions. His deer ain't walkin away crippled, and neither are mine. Opinions vary, respect others for theirs.
To some, 10g/# means something....to me, it means don't blow up the bow, not "that's the least you can shoot for penetration". As far as anecdotal evidence, I'll bet there are FAR more arrows going through deer with the 10g/# and even less number than there are 650gr+ arrows. Just from the sheer odds alone.
So, all this is about improving penetration. Doc says 650 is the limit, his data proves it. You've had problems with penetration? Listen to the man, it will probably work for you. Never had a problem? Keep shootin what you have confidence in and quit listenin to the folks hollerin at you that you are doing it wrong.
Whew....when is turkey season again? :rolleyes:
Guess we wuz all typin at the same time :)
Yup Terry, multiple standards depending on game. I likes heavy fer hogs, not so heavy fer deer etc. Now why did you have to splain it so well....you dun kilt the fun :p
Wow...you mean I not only explained it but explained it WELL!!!!
Hot DANG my horse not only got noticed....
It finally placed!!! :jumper: :jumper: :jumper: :jumper: :jumper:
Yep Terry, he placed....but he only paid a buck fifty. :p
Hey SteveB, meant to say "great post". Well put.
Dang, but we got lots of smart folks on here!
Well that's a lot better than my 2 cents!!! :D
Some of these numbers leave me scratching my head. I suppose that's because I keep thinking if I was ever hunting an animal I felt required a 650-grain arrow, I sure wouldn't be doing it with a 45# bow.
Thanks JC - really not trying to stir.
Just want all sides to be seen.
Steve
Socialism was tongue-in-cheek. Guess I should have added one of these... :) It just aint so that 10 gpp can be considered equal across the board without regard to bow weight, arrow weight, what you're hunting, and under what conditions. It is a fine thing for paper and bow longevity, but that's about it. I believe that point has been well made above and I happen to agree with it.
Obviously my previous post did not convey what I meant in the manner I meant it. By useful trajectory, I was speaking of hunting distances. I simply do not believe that bowhunters shooting less than 50 pounds with the bows made today, cannot accurately shoot a 12-15 gpp arrow at distances less than 20 yds. It is my opinion that for the average bowhunter, the potential benefit gained in penetration from heavier gpp arrows out of lighter weight bows on whitetail, far outweighs the potential benefit of increasing shot distance out past 20 yds. Obviously you must strike a balance based on your hunting conditions and obviously there is an actual limit to the amount a given draw weight can push.
And that is the side I wanted seen. Light weight bows are more than capable of shooting heavier arrows and more than capable of killing deer with them. The Good Doc was just shooting 700+ grain arrows from a 54# straight end longbow at 27" and breaking through buff ribs at 20 yds. Scaling down and applying some of that knowlege toward deer hunting when using light bows of modern design makes perfect sense for most less than perfect situations. Or so I would think...
Molson, no harm/no foul...hard convey humor through the monitor.
I think it's not so much increasing distance as it is improving trajectory and therefore minimizing errors in range "calculation" (if you are an instinctive shooter) or "estimation" (if you are a gap shooter).
Healthy balance...that will vary from shooter to shooter. When I start hitting them in the shoulder, I'll go to 700gr (or if I shoot my 70# I might shoot 700 anyway). Until then, I'll stick with what I got, roughly 9.6gr/# cause with most bows, that gives me 185fps at my draw...what I seem to shoot best at. If I shot lighter bows, I might think differently.
It's all a compromise.
Launching heavy (600-700gr) arras, with high FOC's, from holding weights around 45-50#, will have trajectory issues for varied distances from 10 yards to 25 yards, for my kinda hunting. Add in the elevation factor between ground and tree stand hunting. So, that scenario would be a problem for me, with regards to arra trajectory (as an "instinctive" bowhunter).
If I can't consistently hit the game due to the heavy arra/light bow arrangement that greatly varies my arra trajectory, then I'd rather go with a faster/flatter flying arra that'll better cover a range of 15-30 yards (for my hunting) and afford better overall accuracy. Which means a lighter arra.
And yet, I still want my GPP no lower than 9gpp and would prefer 10-11gpp (all with high 20-25% FOC). And I want at least a 500gr arra.
All of the above shows me the direction for setting up my killing tackle - 55# holding weight with a fast r/d hybrid longbow, 540 grain arras with 24% FOC. That should be a good setup for low 15-30 yard trajectory, and should be viable for killing deer, hog or bear.
YMMV.
We're pretty much saying the same thing. I personally consider 500 gr a minimum arrow weight for whitetail. I also agree that, for whitetail, once you hit 500gr at 50#'s, adding additional bow weight gives you more freedom to make choices such as Rob, JC, and Terry have described.
Once you drop below that mark, it seems responsible to go the other way. Increase the arrow weight above the 10gpp "standard" and reduce your trajectory expectations to cover a range of say 10-20 yds. That seems to be what you guys are saying, without actually saying it.
As for accuracy, the single best way to improve accuracy under hunting conditions is to reduce the shot distance. Any error you make at 15 yds is not only magnified, but more likely to occur, at 25.
Yeah, Molson, that's about it for me, too. 500 gr minimum for a medium game arra, and that would dictate a 50# holding weight.
Concerns/problems crop up when going under 50# and launching 500 grains.
It'd be wonderful to have all game stand no more than 10-15 yards away. Ain't gonna happen for me. I need to be able to reach out to as much as 25 and 30 yards. That's where low arra trajectory, along with decent arra weight, enters my equation and compromises. And how confident I feel about my accuracy and shot placement under hunting conditions. It sure gets tougher as I get older, too! :eek:
Like I said, it's all about making wise compromises.
Absolutely Rob. You have reached your goals by increasing draw weight, not by reducing arrow weight, to achieve your acceptable level of performance. In my opinion, that is the correct way to do it. It's when dropping below the 500/50 mark, that a different way of thinking should apply.
So... what did everyone finally agree on? That bowyers recommended 10gpp to cover their hind ends and warrantees? Or that ya gotta shoot as heavy and arrow as fast as it can go out of your bow, and that there are minimums for bow weight and the game we pursue? Shoot 60 plus pounds and 600 plus for all game in North America and forget about it! :bigsmyl:
Here's my take - I don't shoot arras lighter than 9 gpp outta my bows. I don't hunt with less than a 500 gr arra, they're all at least 24% high FOC, and they all have a reasonably consistent trajectory from 15-30 yards (meaning, they be fairly fast).
For me to achieve all of the above takes a minimum of a 50# hybrid r/d longbow.
But then again, I knew all that before this thread even got born. :D
You bunch of high tech rednecks :D ...Van
If you can pull 60 pounds, more power to you! My shoulders would collapse inward and smash me on either side of my face if I tried it! But anyone who thinks he/she can't shoot through a whitetail or similar animal with a 45lb recurve and 450 grain arrow needs to try it sometime. When you pull the arrow out of the ground on the other side of the deer, maybe a light will come on. . . .
I did not read all the posts, but it has been proven as of late that the answer is "NO"!! It has now been proven an arrow with high forward of center will out penetrate an arrow of the same weight without the high FOC. Also the first statement does not make sense. It should be grains not pounds and ten grain per pound of arrow weight is ten grain 45# bow is 450 grains and 60# bow is 600 grains. It makes is not a great idae to shoot a 650 grain arrow out of a 40# bow as it robs the bow of too much perfromance and ya get a diminishing return. Shawn
OK Shawn....is'nt a 650 grain High FOC arrow a 650 grain High FOC arrow?????
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
I think some folks need to actually go hunting! :goldtooth:
T...you're gonna need a bigger horse for that one!!!
:D :D :D
My brain hurts... :knothead:
David
I will think of this thread the next time I am looking for my wife's arrow after it has just passed through a deer and buried in the switch grass beyond. i have not found the last one yet, tapered 5/16'' cedar, grizzly, 36pound wing at 26''.
QuoteOriginally posted by Three Arrows:
So... what did everyone finally agree on? That bowyers recommended 10gpp to cover their hind ends and warrantees? Or that ya gotta shoot as heavy and arrow as fast as it can go out of your bow, and that there are minimums for bow weight and the game we pursue? Shoot 60 plus pounds and 600 plus for all game in North America and forget about it! :bigsmyl:
Heck Chuc...Nobody ever agrees on this kinda stuff. Where would the fun be in that?
I was reading a book on archery the other day written in 1953. Exact same discussion was going on in the book with the exact same arguments for each side. The more things change, the more they stay the same!
QuoteOriginally posted by Diamond Paul:
But anyone who thinks he/she can't shoot through a whitetail or similar animal with a 45lb recurve and 450 grain arrow needs to try it sometime. When you pull the arrow out of the ground on the other side of the deer, maybe a light will come on. . . .
:thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Shawn Leonard:
I did not read all the posts, but it has been proven as of late that the answer is "NO"!! It has now been proven an arrow with high forward of center will out penetrate an arrow of the same weight without the high FOC. Also the first statement does not make sense. It should be grains not pounds and ten grain per pound of arrow weight is ten grain 45# bow is 450 grains and 60# bow is 600 grains. It makes is not a great idae to shoot a 650 grain arrow out of a 40# bow as it robs the bow of too much perfromance and ya get a diminishing return. Shawn
Shawn, read Dr. Ashby's reports...that's EXACTLY what he's saying....650gr minimum, high FOC out of whatever bow you are shooting to get max penetration penetration. Numerous ladies who have harvested elk and such with low poundage bows tend to agree with him. Though it's not much for trajectory, the data is showing it works for penetration through bone.
And as far as "robbing performance" depends on what you mean by performance. It's slower, but it definately has more momentum...the key to penetration in most eyes. The arrows mass is the only constant after the arrow leaves the bow...theoretically, the heavier the better.
For me, I like....awww heck, ya'll heard all that already :goldtooth:
I think that I should clarify the arrows my wife is using, are about the heaviest forty pound spine arrows that Rogue river ever had to send me at that spine. With a 160 grain griz for the weight of the bow that is pretty stout grains per pound. I still have my doubts about the bone busting abilities of light bows with any arrow. although I agree with the report 100%, the parameters of heavy bows versus light bows will always be quite different. I think my wife's setup would be good penetration on ribs and chest to possible bounce offs on heavy bones. i think a lot of us are some where between that and test bow in the report.