In case you haven't noticed, Dr. Ashby's 2007 research, Part 4, just went up here. This part covers research on 54# bow penetration, extreme FoC arrows, single-bevel broadheads, broadhead mechanical advantage and more. Good stuff to make us think. :cool:
Thanks for the heads up Dave. I had not noticed myself. Read the report last night and was amazed at how great the penetration increases were for optimally-designed arrows. Extreme FOC and using the proper BH really improves penetration. VERY useful information for all of us. Well done Ed!
Thanks, John. Coming from someone as technically knowledgable as you, that's much appreciated. After a quarter century of hard work, there's finally getting to be enough data to pull everything together. I'm finally finding solid answers to some of what I wanted to know when I first started doing this stuff.
Ed
TGMM Family of The Bow
Doc, Thanks for all you have done, I think this is what Doctor Saxton and Mr. Young where trying to do when they where proving that an arrow and a bow are truly deadly weapons.
I had stumbled onto some of the things you have proven by accident and several that never even crossed my mind.
From one hard core Bowhunting-holic to another a tip of my camo hat to you Sir.
A little proof.56lb, 550gr single bevel 160gr Grizzly,shot 2-29-08
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3058.jpg)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3055.jpg)
David, can that dark stuff I see on the ground possibly be blood? I didn't think single blade broadheads were supposed to leave blood trails?
:biglaugh: Is that hit just off the scapula's edge, or did it catch the scapular flat? That sort of looks like dirt on the BH too. Did the ground stop its penetration? Any more details? Tell me more.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Ed, since you're visiting the website now I have one question about using LocTite to anchor the BH+adaptor into the insert. I too had wondered about the probability of RH fletch and RH bevel causing the BH to back out during the process of penetration. My understanding is that LocTite offers various "bonding strengths". Which one offers enough to prevent the BH from unscrewing itself yet can be heated sufficiently for removal without simultaneously removing the insert? That seems like it might be a tricky operation. My arrows to BOP are already 31.25", so adding a 3" BH (permanently) makes it hard for me to find rolling duffles long enough to swallow my hard arrow case. Any recommendations for how to prevent the BH from backing out yet still enable (with some difficulty) it's removal without taking the insert with it?
John, it's difficult to apply (for me) but Teflon plummer's tape works fairly well too. I use the original, soft, thread locking LocTite (it's blue). The hard set versions are darned near perminent.
The other option: I use 48" and 52" zipper-open duffle bags. Bought an additional one at WalMart last year. Most of the time I use 4" PVC tubes for the arrows, and some of the test arrows have been on full-length shafts (to get the dynamic spine right). Those will fit inside the duffle bags I have. Option #3, it's east to get a bag made too!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Good stuff as usual Dr. Ed. I'm still waiting for a good left-wing glue on single bevel head to hit the market.
With a 160 grain head and a hardwood footed and tapered 11/32 cedar shaft, I can get about 15% FOC. Think I've figured out a way to increase it though. Tap the shaft with about a 3-inch 3/16 hole and epoxy in a 3-inch section of steel rod, about 100 grains. Not only does that increase the FOC substantially, since the internal footing will extend two inches or so behind the broadhead, it should also strengthen the shaft behind the broadhead. One of my hunting partners and I have started experimenting. Arrows fly real well. Haven't had a chance to test them for toughness yet. Thanks for all you have done. Keep up the good work.
Jerry, I THINK there are possibilities there. I'm also encouraged from things I hear that a HEAVY glue-on single-bevel MAY show up in a few months. One geared at getting higher FOC on the wood shafts. Hang in there.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
I would have thought if you have a rh thread unit, and you use right wing feather with the single bev grizz, as the arrow goes in and turns, on impact, the shaft would tighten up the threads even more, before the broadhead actually starts turning. This would be simple physics. :knothead:
Chuck, the bevel-induced roration is almost 4 times the rotational rate of the shaft in flight. Unless they are well secured, the more rapidly rotating right single-bevel BH loosens the threads on the more-slowly-rotating shaft.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Great read! Just hope some of your test results finds it's way into the compound world. I turn my head at some of the setups I see for the sake of speed!
I use string wax on the threads to keep things from unscrewing.
Blue LocTite works great for me.
Another concurrence, GREAT stuff!
To me it seems as if there are two primary topics in this whole research, one of which the good doctor set out to find (maximizing pentration) and one perhaps unexpected benefit (maximizing the wound channel) due to the "single bevel phenomenon" (of course there are many secondary topics/questions and hundreds of tertiary topics/questions) that have arisen from these studies. The two main topics I see are:
1). Penetration
2). Wound Channel
I may have missed reading one study but it seems the #1 question has been answered thoroughly and decidedly. The second item, "wound channel" being more extensive (than at least I would have first suspected) was possibly unpredicted?
I think where the most likelihood of pulling in rank-and-file bowhunters to utilizing the "single bevel phenomenon" will take demonstration that the wound channel isn't just a slit and that the rotation of a SB thru SOFT flesh can result in more extensive SOFT tissue damage and thus better blood trails than multi-blade heads can provide.
I think bone hits for most NA bowhunters is a lower concern compared to making as large of a wound channel as possible which means soft-tissue damage due to the smaller, finer boned average- sized animal that is hunted over here.
(that said, I haven't created my first SB wound channel yet but looking forward to doing so to verify results of these studies!)
I've enjoyed the entire study. I think this may be the most well received information to date. Certainly applicable (bow weight/arrow performance) to a large portion of the tradbow community.
To me, the most important part of the study is the establishing of optimum penetration performance. If you know what is the absolute best combination, then you know how and where you are giving up penetration performance for other characteristics that may be important to you.
As for blood trails, I don't believe it matters. Hit something that bleeds alot, leave an exit hole, and you will have no problem following the trail. The poor bloodtrails I've followed have been from poor hits, or hits that did not exit. The quality of the bloodtrail has everything to do with the sharpness of the broadhead and where you hit. If you can follow the blood to your deer, it's a good bloodtrail.
There is no such thing as overkill when bowhunting.
I too have enjoyed and learned alot from Dr Ashbys` reports.
The young hunters in my home have, and will continue to benifit from the information put forth by Dr. Ashby. As for me, my arrows are heavier than they have ever been, my front of center is way up, and while I don`t use single bevel heads, my young sons certainly will be.
Thank you Dr. Ed Ashby... I hope someone DOES come forth and asks your permission to name a broadhead after you. You have done bowhunters
the world over a great service. :thumbsup:
P.S. Are those huge buffalo any good to eat once they are reduced to fit on a dinner plate?
I know that my setup has changed based on the many reports from Dr. Ashby-example...no more aluminum inserts. It's fun to hang out here and have fun but (more importantly) this kind of great information has made me a more efficient and sucessful hunter.
Thank you all for the kind words. Ya'll are the folks that make it all worthwhile.
Donald, buff are great eating! The big ones can be a bit tough at times, but that's never been a problem. Just cook them slow and long and they fall apart. Love my Dutch Oven!
Ed
quote:
Originally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
David, can that dark stuff I see on the ground possibly be blood? I didn't think single blade broadheads were supposed to leave blood
trails?
:saywhat: and single blade broadheads can leave good to great blood trails, But I know you already know that. :thumbsup:
They just don't leave a gaping hole like some of the 3&4 blades do.
I will take penetration over any other factor, I want an exit and two holes are always better than one.
The arrow did just miss the scapula but it blew up ribs on both sides before hitting the ground stopping the shaft.
One of the things I do now is that TANTO tip you talk about, WOW!! is that thing strong.
I use to round it off and had far results, but the TANTO tip seems to split or blow up the bones.
As you can see from the hit it was vary strong down hill right through the thickest part of the shield, I still had another 2-3 inches to the right before I would of been out of the chest cavity.
You already know the heart sits right between the two front legs, I wanted a quartering in shot, but settled for broadside :biglaugh: with a few more improvements to my set up, crushing the scapula wont worry me.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3061.jpg)
I just wanted to share with every one how much you have helped me and improved my set up, Thanks again Doc.
For those of you seeking glue-on left single-bevels, they are now available from Eclipse as special orders on their standard 125 and 145 two-blades, left and right at 25 degree bevel with a tip that takes just a couple of file strokes to convert to Tanto. You can order them off the website direct, or through a distributor. In other words, they are set up to start making them but haven't yet gotten any stock into the system. While they aren't factory shooting sharp, they are fairly easy to sharpen with a file and stone, as opposed to those danged Grizzlies. I just got a half dozen and can't wait to try them out on a heavy-boned tom turkey! dave
David, thanks for the details on the photo. I'm always interested in the results other get.
At one point, a few years back, I found myself passing up perfect shots, in favor of pushiung the envelope of what the arrows could/would do. Not something I would recommend, but that was with arrows that I tested hard, and felt certain could take out both shoulders on big hogs, right through the ball joint, and still exit - and felt I just had to prove to myself that they could and would do that, without fail, on real hunting shots. That was with a high poundage longbow (94#@27") and heavy arrows that were right at 19% FOC ... but ones that didn't penetrate as well as the 150 grain lighter higher Extreme FOC arrows I'm using now, from a 82#@27" longbow.
Dave, good news on the Eclipse. After you try them out with a low angle single-bevel, let me know how the edge holds up. I have some No Mercy SB's on the way, to test this year.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
David, what I started out to mention in the above post (before my thoughts got side tracked) was that, if you're wanting to crash through those heavy shoulder bones, it's a good idea to test your setup against those bones on your downed animals before you try them as your primary shot. I almost always have an experimental setup or two along when I hunt, just for that purpose.
Nowadays, most of what I carry along for 'opportunistic testing' are not something for a better setup, but something I want to evaluate, like a particular BH on a setup that I have comparative data for with other BH's from the same bow and similar arrow setup.
For your purposes, develop a test setup that you think might offer and advantage. When opportunity presents, test it side by side against the one you're currently using. Unlike firearms, you can poke a lot of holes into a downed animal with arrrows without any loss of usable meat. There are several potential heavy bone test sights on a downed animal; scapula, humerus, femur, pelvic girdle, and even the skull.
You can get a lot of first hand data that's specific to your setup that way, and the more you learn about your setup's capabilities, the more you'll know about both shot options and likely outcomes when you see your arrow has impacted somewhere you didn't intend.
It also helps everyone else out if you'll post your observations from time to time. You don't have to go to the extremes of data collection that I do. It's still interesting.
Looking forward to seing results from any you come up with.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Dr. Ashby, if you ever get a chance, could you walk us through how you set up to tune a bow/arrow combo? (what techniques you use)
Thank you for your efforts,
Rich
:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
Rich, if you look back to around mid-December to around Christmas it's posted in detail on three of four Pow Wow threads, and has been on a few threads this year, both on Pow Wow and the Dangerous Game and Dark Continent forums. I should have just kept a copy of one for re-posting, but didn't. :banghead:
If you can't locate one or the other of them, let me know and I'll repost it ... and keep myself a copy this time. :)
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Great,I'll find it, thank you sir!
Rich, I sincerely mean it: If you can't locate it, just let me know and I'll write it out ... but I hope you can! I'm a two finger typist. Let me know if you do locate it too.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Hi Dr. Ed: yes, I found one on your 12/13/07 pow-wow thread titled "accuracy and traditional broadheads", and it's just what I was looking for!
Again, thank you for your efforts,
Rich
Thanks Rich. I was actually dreading typing all that out again!
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Thanks Doc. for your replies a big 10-4 on experimenting first on animals already down.
Came across this guy the other day rooting in some strong wind, he was doing a head stand trying to get to some bulbs or roots.
I had a shot at around 25 yards but he was in a hole, so I kept getting closer and closer until I was 15 feet away.
I lined up his body and came to full draw, I picked a spot and hit the clicker and the arrow disappeared in the spot, he was not that big so I knew I could get to the vitals but he ate the whole thing with an exit through the bottom of the scapula
He jumped forward and blood gushed from the entrance wound.
He didn't want to move he was hit hard, he took about ten steps and fell over.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3017.jpg)
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/DSCN3015.jpg)
PS that only looks like blood all over the ground, but you know 2 blades leave a spars blood trail :saywhat:
David, that's great penetration. Blood trail is not as important when they drop virtually on the spot!
On the next pig, after he's down, try a rear shot, somewhat quartering, right into the ball-joint/pelvig girdle. WHEN YOU ARE USING A SETUP YOU'RE CERTAIN WILL BREAK THROUGH, that is a devistating shot on pigs from the rear-quartering angle. Always had enormous blood, and fast collapse-time with it. Many just drop in their tracks. Takes a great arrow setup though. I can routinely get an exit on those, and frequently get pass-throughs, even on sizable pigs.
You'll need to test it on a BIG FELLOW at some point, but if you can satisfactorily do that shot on him, you'll be safe using it on most any hog. It's a lot easier to stalk them from the rear; and to get the shot away. I understand that Ray likes those rear-end hits too and, similarly, has them dropping in their tracks.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
That is impressive penetration. What's your draw weight and other specs on that set up?
Tim, part of the setup is given on the pictures of that bigger pig on page 1. Those were 56#, 550 gr arrow, 160 grizzly. Don't see the other specifics listed; FOC, adaptor, insert.
I'm curious what he'll see on the hip-joint/pelvic girdle impacts; and what effect-difference he would see by bumping arrow mass up to around 650 grains would show on such heavy-bone hits.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
Doc. that does sound like it will take a strong set-up, are you talking about breaking the pelvic ball joint and keep going to the front and exiting, WOW!!! I like that.
QuoteOriginally posted by SlowBowinMO:
That is impressive penetration. What's your draw weight and other specs on that set up?
Slow, I shoot a 56lb Habu recurve it's about 10 years old and beat to death, my arrow is a beman blue jacket ( not available any more )it's vary small diameter about .2300, a grizzly 160 (so sharp most animals just lay down and die knowing it's on it's way) LOL with a Tonto tip
A long 42gr. insert, 3 5" Fletch, my arrow is 550gn for a 10gn. per pound formula.
I am working on implementing some more of the good Doc's ingredients to cook up a true freight-train of an arrow.
This is what I want to cook up...
Going up to 60lb bow.
125grain broad-head steel insert .
4-3" Fletch or 3-4"
This should make a 630gn arrow
If I need more weight I'll put it up front.
I could put some bird shot in the tip of the broad-head or some in the front of the shaft or something else in the shaft.
David, that sounds like a great setup.
If you haven't yet, check the "Fletching and Extreme FOC" thread. As your FOC gets higher, I think you'll be able to use even samller flecthing, while still getting great flight stability and paradox recovery ... plus gaining a reduction in flight sound and a bit of increased arrow speed down-range.
Check out what Ray Hammond is using on his Grizzly tipped Extreme FOC's - low-profile 2" feathers 4 fletched! I'm impressed!
The Grizzly has among the least wind shear effect of any broadhead. I'm not sure that fletching that small (like Ray's) would be enough on a short-wide BH - but we're going to try and find out!
Please keep us all posted on how your setup progresses, and what you find when you performance test it on game.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow
You know Doc. I went to the grizzly head because I liked the 3 to 1 ratio, I never knew that the big advantage was the single bevel.
It is amazing the amount of penetration I am getting, for 56lb's
But the combo of small shaft heavyweight arrow & single bevel cant be beat.
This buck was shot at about 13 yards on the ground with the same set up.
(http://i172.photobucket.com/albums/w27/kingwouldbe/hunting9-22-0510-16-05063.jpg)
Thanks for the update. Ahh, skinny carbons! I used those for a while, they penetrated better than anything else I've ever used! I'm not surprised.
I've not posted on the fletch thread, it makes my head hurt, :knothead: but I have played with higher FOC lately. I too have noticed when the FOC goes up, flight seems to improve as long as the spine is right. I've got some heads that tend to be finicky that will fly like a laser when the point is loaded up.
David,
It looks like you did a job on that deer too! I love testing on big pigs. They have substantial bones. If it works there, lighter stuff becomes a given.
It's going to take a while for folks to understand all the 'whys' behind single-bevels. I'm a bit concerned that so many seem to be rushing single-bevel BH's onto the market. Many are, I think, missing the importance of having a WIDE bevel; which means they need good blade thickness and a low bevel-angle; which, in turn, means steel of high hardness. The surface area of the bevel in contact is a big factor in getting the MAXIMUM benefits from a single-bevel.
Tim,
You have that precisely right. I've been trying to stress how very important it is to get the dynamic spine perfect. I hope it's sinking in. Getting the best performance one can is a package deal - can't just slap a lot of weight up front, put a single-bevel on just any broadhead and expect to get great results. Like most things in successful bowhunting, it's all about attention to the details.
Ed
TGMM Family of the Bow