Well, I hope this doesn't end up rubbing anyone the wrong way, and certainly that is not my intention, so with all due respect to everyone who has participated in years past, here goes:
I think we need to reconsider (slightly) the rules and timline for the bowswap.
Originally it was a 6mo timeframe, then added a 1mo grace period. We're currently approacing 10mo total running time with bows still being made.
None of this is life threatening, but I think it would benefit the swap if we could make an effort to control the stretching of the timeline.
I would like to hear what other people think about how to reign in the timeframe for next year.
Canopyboy had mentioned in the 2013 swap thread that reducing the timeline could help procrastination, and reduce the total time to finish the swap. I think this is a good idea, but I also think that 6mo is a reasonable time, if we can truly wrap things up in that time period. One problem with having the swap run for a year, is that the organizers/volunteers liek KellyG, just end up working al year long every year on this and that's not cool for them, and won't motivate people to volunteer. The swap is impossible without their dedication so we owe it to them to make things run more smoothly.
I would suggest considering the following:
Start on or near Jan 1st as previously, Ship by corresponding day in July. However I would suggest adding the rule that if you have not shipped by 1mo after the shipping date (i.e. the end of the 1mo grace period) you MUST ship the bow you have received, or if you ahve not received yet, your bowyer will be instructed to ship DIRECTLY to your recipient.
Also after the last day of the Grace period, all bowyers and their recipients will be posted, so everyone knows who's bow is going where.
Any arrangements between recipient and bowyer outside of this would need to be made directly between those two people (the bowyer who is late and the recipient who is still waitin). In other words if the recipient is willing to sit there and continue to wait, they can make that decision, but unless the recipient spoecifically states that they are willing to wait for their bowyer (the late bowyer), the bow received or to be received by the late bowyer WILL be forwarded.
The whole purpose here is to ease the strain on the moderators ... Once the late bowyers and recipients are announced, bows will be forwarded as necessary, or they can work it out individually and only need to go to the moderators for any disputes.
Any other ideas, or thoughts on this approach are appreciated. I'd really liek to see a swap where everything resolves in the summer, and everyone can get there bow by hunting season with time to tune and practice if they wish to do so.
Thanks.
I agree totally with the names of the boyers and their recipients being posted.
I have no dog in this particular fight Ben, but a similar one. 6 months is a crazy long time to build a single bow no matter what life deals you. If that time frame feels threatening to a person, don't sign up, walk away from the light. Also, Im a one strike guy. Ship late once and your done in all future swaps. Its ALL about respecting other folks in the swap and especially those who facilitate the swaps. Its no fun chasing people down 8,9 & 10 months later for a single bow. I need to shut up, Im getting mad.
That's my 2.3214 cents on the matter.
As someone who went into and a bit beyond the grace period, I will say that prcrastination is a part of the problem. Other things reared up in my case, but those "things" would have reared up in the case of a shorter timeline as well and still would have been handled.
So, I think we could continue as in the past but put the shipping deadline in the 90 day range. And, as PEARL said, if ya can't handle it, don't sign up!
Just so you know. Ive been in 3 bow swaps and shipped 6 bows, and received 2. That's why Im as hard about it as I am. I wont sign up for another or facilitate one. But Im glad to throw my change in the pile to make future go rounds better for anybody involved.
Ok Keep the ideals coming, we might find a solution that will work.
But I know one who is shipping late to know fault of their own, with out making a super long thread, it was admin errors topped with folks with drawing.
Stiks and I take the late ones on a case by case. I try to communicate with all who have not gotten bows and let them know what I know.
I think one thing I will run by stiks is at the end of the is asking who wants to know who and let them decide. What?
The main thing on my end is for folks to communicate. If they do that I try and work with them.
The last two swaps we only had one person not ship that received and they where from ones who have shipped on time in the past.
But I like the dialog and might find some really good things to add with out to much red tape.
Why not designate a set shipping date or days (say three) for everyone. All bows will be shipped during that time frame. It's no problem to stick a ready to ship bow in the rack while waiting for the set shipping date/dates if you finish early. All it would take to keep everything in line would be posting a simple note stating your finished and ready to ship. If you can't finish and don't post, don't expect to receive anything.
Troy
Troy has a great idea. Why not do a bow swap where the bows are made in advance? Sure not everyone will be able to customize to the recipients specs...but it would make the the whole process easier to manage and much more punctual. Also if the specs are pre-determined it will eliminate any folks that lie outside those parameters. ie. 45lb bow @ 28" (length, material and accessories are variable)
Or reduce the process to a lesser time frame and require participants to agree to a binding contract. Then any dirtbags that can't hold up their end of the deal are financially responsible for shortchanging others. Additionally, maintaining a black list for bow swaps / etc. would be beneficial. Once an individual does not produce as agreed, they are blacklisted from future swaps of any sorts.
Troy's idea sound excellent. It would then be like
Christmas for all at once.
I'm wiff Troy
I like Troy's idea as well. A flurry of bows being received would be interesting and fun. I would also like to keep the swap mostly the way it is. I.E. giving our desired specs and not knowing who builds for us.
Dave.
X2 Troy's idea
I just thought of something that might cause a problem. If everyone were to send all at once, this might open a door for a freeloader who would be able to receive a bow and not send one out.
Sorry, I don't mean to be a downer.
Would there be a way to prevent this?
Dave.
Not a bad Idea. We tend to do something similar now. By asking folks to hold bows for the new folks in the swap.
I think I will compile a few of the ideals has they come along.
And maybe ask stiks and some other what they think. I really want to use the KISS method (keep it simple stupid)
but this year was the worse one about folks going into the grace and beyond. Not the longest but the most.
What I don't want to happen is this over shadow all the great things that come out of the swap.
I mean over since 2011 (my first year tracking) there have been 231 bows made and shipped to almost every state and 4 different countries (Canada, Switzerland, Turkey and Australia.
With only 6 Receiving a bow and not shipping and 4 of those were in 2011, 2 from last year and only 1 so far this year. So roughly 97.5% who enter do so and come through. With the help of other we get bows done to cover for the others. And I will not let us not be 100% if I know about someone not getting one.
So I really mean it when I say thanks to all of you who help us be this GREAT!
I like Troy's idea as well as Pearl's.
I am guilty of being late but would hate to be booted from participating in future swaps. That "threat" would probably make me more diligent.
Perhaps a more harsh consequence would be motivational.
How about 2 swaps? One for those who have participated and shipped on time, someone like Kelly ( if he still has the time and desire)could run this swap and it should be nice and easy, all new comers and people who did not ship on time ( July) no grace period. Will have to be in a beginner swap to prove themselves. After names have been received the beginner swap, this swap could be a little more managed by its participants. If you do not ship by July in the veteran swap you move to the beginner swap next year, if you do not ship by July in the beginner swap you are then banned. Everyone will run a risk of not getting a bow in the beginner swap but once you prove yourself , you should be set for as long as you follow the rules....
I don't know if there is any golden solution. Yes, life does get in the way of well laid plans, and a couple late bows are understandable, but it seems as though life is getting in the way of more and more people each year. C'mon guys, the length of time folks are waiting for their bows is beginning to be equivalent to the wait time for a custom bow from a popular professional bowyer.
I think the deadline should be moved up - say end of April. Winter is really bow building time and as spring/summer approach there are more distractions. If you can't hop on building your bow in the winter and get it done in a four month period maybe you just shouldn't sign up.
Life does happen and if your late, you shouldn't be banished for life, but maybe forced to sit out for at least one year.
I don't care for the idea of making a bow in advance and then finding out who you will ship to. Most of the fun of the swap is customizing the bow for what your specific recipient might like. Also, we'd run into problems with right vs. left handed folks and folks who can handle heavy bows vs. light bows.
I've gotten lucky in the three years I've been in the swap with never even coming close to the deadline on either shipping or receiving. Heck, I was the first to receive a bow this year and I shipped the bow I built out in March. So I've had it good. However, I must admit that I have thought about not getting in the swap next year just because the time this thing drags out each year is a bummer. Not that I'm afraid of not receiving a bow, but it just detracts from the experience and gives the feeling that some don't take the commitment they signed up for as seriously as others.
Just my $0.02
Let me see if I can clear up a few things I may have missed in my first post.
Hold the draw for names as usual. No one will know who has their name. The builder will have the specs and know what they are to build or atleast close to.
When you post the bow is finished and ready to ship, simply post a pic of it as well. That way it will prevent the laggers from just saying so.
I know some may not have the ability to post pics, but I'm sure someone out there can help them out.
Like I said before, if you don't post that the bow is ready and show pics, then the organizers can contact the person who is supposed to build the bow for you and try to work something out with the person you are supposed to build for.
By doing something along these lines, atleast everyone that post and show will know they will have something coming in a timely manner.
I'm sure this want cure all the problems, but it should help a little.
Troy
I think Troy's idea is great. What it does is make the deadline a BIG Frickin' Deal! That will get the attention of us procrastinators. Who wants to be the guy that doesn't ship during the big week? I think designating the last week in June or thereabouts as Ship It Week would be great for all involved. Something to really look forward to that will help keep everyone on track. Heck, what about making it June 25th? 6 months from Christmas?
As for newcomers and those who might try to get a bow and not reciprocate? I don't know, there's always those types in life. If we worry too much about them, we ruin our own enjoyment of the 97% that is good. Besides, I'm in the swap for the making and giving part, not the receiving. My personal vote is to simply ban those who don't come through from future swaps. There are plenty of people here (myself included) who would make a second bow to make sure no deserving bowyer gets shafted.
There will still be a couple of people who have unforeseen issues with either their bows or their lives come up. If they know it as the ship date approaches, they can make arrangements with the organizers: either redirect the bow for them to their recipient if they think they simply can't make it happen soon, or give their recipient the option to know who their bowyer is and wait for them to come through.
Another thought for newbies (would be an added burden on the organizers): we could require that everyone check in the week prior to The Ship Week with confirmation that their bow is done, complete with a picture. (There is always help for those that have trouble posting a pic.) If your recipient is on the newbie list, you need to double check that they've posted (or told the organizers) that they are in fact ready to ship themselves before you send. They could still not ship, but I don't think many really are that devious. I think most just don't get around to or have trouble making a bow that works, but aren't honorable enough to man up to the fact.
Anyhow, to repeat: I think everyone shipping at once would be awesome. I think it would help the current dragging on (which will only get worse next year if nothing changes.) But I also think that the excitement will go through the roof, just like in January when we all await our recipients' names so eagerly.
well... i hope it stays alive. i have been wanting to get in on it.
I wouldn't worry about that Eric. I'm quite sure it will be alive and strong for many years.
Glad so many people have chimed in here.
I think most of us agree that Troy's concept is good. I think one of the best aspects is that it's simple, and shouldn't require any more work.
But I do think that we should shorten the time frame, but I guess thats more opinion than anythign else.
Eric, Like Dave said, I;'m sure the swap will continue, my goal in posting was to try to make sure the next swap is BowSwap 2014, and not Bowswap 2014-2015.
Troy's concept is good and I'd be up for that - everyone shipping at once. However, I can foresee quite a few folks not done with their bows and the organizers needing to scramble to figure out who's bow is going to who. In the end, it's still a deadline that people need to make the commitment to meet.
As one who has pushed the deadline a couple of times, here are my feelings.
Shorten the build period to three, or at most, four months. If there is a definite deadline most everybody (including myself) will make it happen. As mentioned by others, bow building is then kept in the bow building season. Personally, I'd prefer it to start in December and be due March 1st.
I really like the idea that everybody ships at the same time. It creates a concrete deadline.
The current Trade thread is nice, but I quit following it after the end of July; figured if the builder was not interested enough in getting their bow done, I wasn't interested looking at it. Unfortunately, the recipient is the one who doesn't have the enjoyment of sharing.
Personally, I have received nice bows every year. However, I do not care what I receive, for me it's mostly about building something out of my usual comfort zone that fits the recipient.
Regardless, I will be in the trade next year, whatever the of the rules.
Kelly, I will send you a pm.
I hope everyone remembers that by shortening the building time it could cause problem for fellows like myself. I do my spraying in my garage and the temp has to be atleast in the 60's for things to work right. Some of the northern states may not hit that temp until May.
Troy
Well I can assure that short of somthing tragic on my end I will be up for doing it again. I don't know about stiks he had a very ruff year and a move. So we shall see on his front.
I don't think a short dead line will help. The only problem with the ship at once date I can see is if the you build a lefty bow and the next guy or gal is a righty. Or the specs are way off. That could causes some issues.
I could track who posted pics easy enough and is done. I think that if that rule goes in place that the late shippers go in another pole and ship to each other.
I will ruminate on this ideal and run it by stiks also. He is the founder of this swap.
I am glad to see that most remember that this swap is to get more new bowyers building. And the fellowship.
We can still post our desired specs as well as our wishes/preferences when we sign up for the swap. Then the names can be drawn as usual and we can build towards a one week mailing period for all bows.
I don't mind shortening the deadline a bit, but I would also have problems finishing a bow in cold weather as I work in an unheated garage.
Dave.
I don't know what the answer is for controlling the late bows. In my opinion, 6 months is plenty of time to make a bow. But it continues to happens every year. And even if the time allotment is shortened, even if new rules are created, it's still going to happen every year. It's just something we all have to deal with, and like Kelly mentioned a while back, the good far out weighs the bad. I do feel that first timers should be paired with other first timers. Especially those who are fairly new to making bows. Seems to me that some guys are trying to make bows to participate in the swap, even though they have limited experience making bows. I'm thinking they are getting in over their heads, and the frustration of meeting a dead line, causes them to error while getting in a hurry. Thus they get behind and need to start another bow. Bottom line is, it's supposed to be fun and it's better to give than receive.
As someone who would love to get into this, I hesitate because I'm the worlds worst procrastinator.
I would like to make a suggestion though. Since Roy likes thumpin, make him the official thumper. If someone runs past the deadline, send their address to Roy, and let him do his thing.
I would like to make a suggestion though. Since Roy likes thumpin, make him the official thumper. If someone runs past the deadline, send their address to Roy, and let him do his thing. [/QB][/QUOTE]
:goldtooth: :goldtooth:
QuoteOriginally posted by 4runr:
As someone who would love to get into this, I hesitate because I'm the worlds worst procrastinator.
I would like to make a suggestion though. Since Roy likes thumpin, make him the official thumper. If someone runs past the deadline, send their address to Roy, and let him do his thing.
You will need to appoint an assistant for Roy, in case some younger folks are in.... :laughing: :laughing:
I've been in this for the last two swaps. I have received late both years and this year I will be among the last to ship.
How about anyone who has been late in any of the swaps gets less time (say two months less than normal) in the next years swap if they want to try again. Kind of like a penalty for tardiness.
Leave all the other rules the same just give any late shippers less time, then if they don't ship by the earlier date they are out for that year. This will give the rest of the group plenty of time to finish up the swap.
In my opinion there will always be late shippers no matter what you change due to the nature of building with some of the materials and of course to procrastination or normal life curve balls.
I think the more important thing is making sure anyone completing a bow gets a good bow regardless if it is on time, after all this is about FUN right?
Being in these swaps has pushed me to create better bows. I have two almost complete that I deemed not good enough for my recipient due to flaws that may be fixable; however, the third one is looking really good right now.
McKenzie, yer back at the top son:)
Sport I think you might be onto something.
We tried the you can't receive until you ship thing if you were new are a late ship. But you can get string of them in a row. So Stiks and i have to end up telling some of the to go ahead and ship or the whole thing gets clogged up.
I am not saying it will be a rule but lets say all new folks and late shippers had to have there bow shipped 30 days prior to all others.
And let them have a 2 week grace if not shipped we skip them and they come back and try another year.
That might keep things going.
But I have had 2 that always shipped on time and heck I know one even made extra bows not come thru back to back years. (1 last year and 1 this year) both are on my banned list.
Being a first-timer I would have to say that procrastination was indeed my biggest hurdle. Troy's idea sounds good, as does merely shortening the build time allowed. After my experience, there is PLENTY of time to finish a bow. Too bad Pearls (and other bowyers I'm sure) have dropped out of this and other swaps because of the poor decisions of a few. Whatever changes are made, I hope that Kelley and Stiks make things easiest for them. They truly are the heart and soul of this swap. Thanks again boys ! :thumbsup:
This was my first year and I gotta say, I'm all for shortening the build time. When I first read "six months", my mind initially went to the thought that I had plenty of time, no reason to rush. However, I made myself get to it as soon as possible and started building by the end of January. Six months is a really long time to build. Maybe four months would be better. I definitely like the idea of a "ship week". It would really get the excitement flowing, not knowing who has already shipped, or who is still waiting. Having everyone ship at once would really make it a surprise for everyone.
Maybe, instead of having a different completion date for newbies and late shippers, just have them check in 1 month prior to the ship week to check progress. If no progress has been made, give them a 2 week warning, that if they're not going to make the deadline they're out, and re-route their bows. And if they say they will make it and don't, then ban them for a year. It may make for some fast re-routing the week before ship week, but it would allow everyone to get a bow that week for sure.
How about the latest batch of 3 people from the prior year can facilitate the following years swap? Its an eye opener. Something else Ive noticed, folks signing up and THEN trying to learn how to make a bow. That's just not right.
Pearl that sucks. I am hesitant to sign up this year because im still new, and while im getting to where i can build a half decent bow, none of them are time tested. I want to be sure that if im giving a bow to someone its a good one. all you have to do is look at the quality of bows on the swap thread, and if you have an ounce of common sense, you shouldn't sign up if you can't (or don't know if you can) build a solid bow. i assumed it was understood, but maybe it just needs to be spelled out in the rules, you know, an honor system.
I'm with PD on this too. The bow swap is probably not the place to learn HOW to make a bow.
I mean everyone has one that explodes from time to time. Heck I must have had 3 bows fail this year. But I also completed 4 successful bows including my swap bow, and conpletely retillered/reduced weight and refinished a glass bow. You've got to be able to reasonably expect you can deliver.
The way I see it Ben, we can sit around patronizing or we can speak the truths. In my 41 years of living I found speaking the truths to be more helpful for the majority.
Would that limit the field to only certain types of bows? I have read these bow swap threads and never dove in because I was learning.....still am. Now I'm thinking what I produced would pale in comparison to what I see the others make....hope to be there someday but still learning. Maybe a newb swap would be beneficial....was thinking of going for it this year.
ordcorpdw, I dont think bow type needs to be limited. I received a fairly simple oak bord bow my first year, and frankly it's one of the better tillered bows I own. Certainly the bowyer was capable, and the bow more than functional. So i don't see a need to tell people what they can and can't make. I think most poeople try to do their best and really make somethign which is better than their last one.
Sport hunter is spot on it does drive you to build a better bow that is why in my opinion it takes the allotted amount of time because you work on another one another one trying to achieve a better finished product that you can present to somebody With pride
QuoteOriginally posted by PEARL DRUMS:
How about the latest batch of 3 people from the prior year can facilitate the following years swap? Its an eye opener. Something else Ive noticed, folks signing up and THEN trying to learn how to make a bow. That's just not right.
Procrastinators herding procrastinators! :eek:
Seems a bit like herding cats!
I agree Monterey, that does not sound like a good plan to me either. Sort of like prison inmates acting as guards ...
Ord, I like the idea that the bow could be any type of bow. That is part of the thrill of the trade. LittleBen is right, the workmanship and craftsmanship is key in the trade.
Whew!!!!!! I have some ipe, hickory, padauk and olive wood from Bethlehem for my first jump....I'm hoping to get in this go round...been planning for about a year.
Ok I really would like to remind all of something.
This swap was set up for novice and veteran a like.
If you are new to the hobby and would like to join in do so. Post your work and let the veterans help out.
If you have a bow or two under you belt the swap is for you. If you have never built on it is not for you.
Again some can build a bow a week other take a lot more time. I broke 2 this year and put out two shooters. One I was proud of and was happy to send it. The other was my best bow to date. Heck my wife even noticed.
But I am new and I know I am not in the same league as 99% who enter but I get better with every bow and shipping one to someone makes me want to build them better then the last and challenge myself to one a bit shorter or different wood. I really want honest feed back on the bows I ship. So I can get better and some day join the 99% and that is what this swap is for.
I have really rambled to much.
Now keep the Ideals coming. And in late DEC I will look at it and see what we can use and what might work with out adding a lot of extra work on my end.
Looks like Kelly addressed my concerns in his first 2 sentences.
If you're in this swap to receive a top end bow, then I think you're in it for the wrong reasons. Requiring people to have a certain level of demonstrated experience before entering kills one of the greatest benefits of the swap in my opinion. If I were to get a bow that a new bowyer had worked hard on that still amounted to a modified 2x4 with a string, I don't think it would change the the satisfaction I get from participating. Nor would I want people to feel pressure that they couldn't try to push themselves with a new style of bow or other attempts to up their game during the swap in order to eliminate any risk. Having a recipient, a deadline, and the comraderie of the swap thread has gotten many successfully started on the bowyer path.
Don't loose track of what's important in the swap. It's the advancement of bow making on the collective level and the fellowship that goes with that.
The question I think we need ideas on is how to try to encourage people (myself included) to put the level of effort they find in June/July into their bows back in Feb/Mar so that this doesn't drag on. I don't think limiting participation or grouping people into experience levels does anything in this respect. And in all other respects, I think the swap is about as good as it gets when using my prior paragraph as an objective.
X2 -Mr. Canopy. Well said. Exactly why I jumped in, instead of testing the water. I challenged myself with design changes I had never attempted before. And will do the same next year. The brotherhood at tradgang is second to none. That's why we are here.
QuoteBut I am new and I know I am not in the same league as 99% who enter but I get better with every bow and shipping one to someone makes me want to build them better then the last and challenge myself to one a bit shorter or different wood. I really want honest feed back on the bows I ship. So I can get better and some day join the 99% and that is what this swap is for.
Well said Kelly! :thumbsup: . My swap bow was the best I've ever built just because it was going to go to another member. I thought long and hard and tried several different ideas before settling on the build. When I shot it the arrows went magically to the point I was looking at! Wanted to keep it for myself. :o
Not trying to be a braggart! The bow still did not come up to some that I see in the swap threads, but the swap inspired me to try to do the best possible.
IMO, that is what the swap is about. Could be wrong on that but it worked that way for me.