Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: marahat on February 07, 2013, 12:36:00 AM
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My parents' property in eastern OK has red cedar, hickory, oak, elm, ash, maple, osage orange, locust, black walnut, persimmon, and I don't know what all else. They have that though. Dogwood and redbuds everywhere too. The hickory has been seasoned for over 5 years, the red cedar and some locust over 10. And I think the black walnut and ash in the back has been there for three or four years. I have my choice. I started with traditional, a recurve 15 years ago when I was a kid, and now I'm really getting into it again. I really want to make a bow. Should I just pull up some reading and reference materials and just dive right in? Any advice on those wood types or anything else at all would be greatly appreciated. Also, can you make one out of wood that's green? Is that what causes the bows that I see that are "curvy" or "twisted up"? Or did the maker carve them and heat treat them to be that way? I just started researching this stuff today, so I'm pretty green myself. Help!
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Sounds like you have plenty of really good bow wood waiting for you. You can learn most if what you need to know in here. Check out the bowyers bench forum.
If you were in a hurry you can cut and split some staves, rough out a few bow blanks and let them dry inside or in a hot box to really get into it quick. Or just buy a seasoned (dry) stave and start today. Then you can season your wood when you get around to cutting some and build yourself some stock.
Some reading: Traditional bowyers bible series, Dean Torges making the osage bow etc..
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Move this over to the Bowyers Bench and go crazy! You will love it!
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Awesome guys, thanks. I'm freaking pumped! I can't wait to get some time to mess with this stuff. I want a "real" bow, as you guys call 'em. I do have a 47# dan quillen (Archery Traditions) recurve that I'm currently in the process of getting setup for hunting and I'm still pumped up about that. Gotta save a little more money for the proper arrows. This is so much fun, I love these archery websites. We have rattlesnakes and copperheads, too. So if I can get a few bows made and get to where I feel like I've made a good one, I can deck that thing out with snake! I also have a little bit of rabbit skin glue, I can use that for a lot of different things, right? I was using it to prime canvases for painting pictures
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Books;"Bows and Arrows of the Native Americans"by Jim Hamm,"Making Indian Bows and Arrows",byDouglas Spotted Eagle,And" Traditional Bowyers Bible"Vol.1,(for Starters").You need these.The Bowyers Bibles are usually available at most libraries and are a must.You have some really great bow woods at your finger tips,and the want.Primitive Archer magazine also has alott of good info.You will be building many fine bows soon!If you get too many copperhead skins give me a shout.I would trade good wood shafts ,etc for a couple.I am excited to see your selfbow evolution and welcome you to the gang.
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FYI, Mar 21-24 near Perkins, OK there is an "open to the public" get together hosted by the Oklahoma Selfbow Society. It's called OJAM (Oklahoma Selfbow Jamboree) and it's the 9th annual. It's family friendly, available primitive camping (free), a lot of different primitive skills classes (flint knapping, cane arrow making, fire starting, etc.), archery vendors, 3D range and a fun "Clout Shoot" and of course bow making tools & instruction. I went for the first time last year & plan on going back this year, joining the society and trying my hand at it myself. Try doing a google search on the society for their website for a map & other info. Great group of people. Hope this helps & hope to see you there. -Tony
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What Tony said
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Gary Davis has a great DVD on bowmaking. I think it is called Rattlestick.
The bows that are curvey and have a lot of character is just how the wood grew. When you split out a stave it will follow the grain of the wood. When you make the bow you go along with the grain. If it is wavy then the bow will be wavy. You can use heat and steam to bend wood. Osage bends great with dry heat.
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Awesome, thanks guys. I guess I need to figure out "tiller" and other important things like that. I was watching a step by step earlier where a guys was shaving little areas at a time to get the bow to bend correctly. And he had the bow horizontal facing upward on the wall, with a long string attached at both ends and some weight in the middle. I suppose this is pretty standard for testing the flexibility? Can I just rig something up in the barn for this? I'm getting ahead of myself, I know. First thing I need to do is locate my best dried wood and knock some staves out of it. And be reading these materials you mentioned in the meantime. Once I get this going (which it might be a little bit, I'm presently kind of busy), I'll post pics of my progress. Thanks again, guys.
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Don't forget to make a tillering gizmo. It's easy to make and there are instructions on this site.
Dave.
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http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047#000000
Try this.
Dave.
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Awesome, I'll take a look at that, thanks!
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That looks easy enough. It appears that how you make your gizmo can vary. Would it being longer or shorter affect the weight of the draw? I want to make sure I understand how to use this. You create some sort of device that will draw your bow back for you, and then, once it is bent, you run that along the bend and whereever that pencil touches the wood, you know you need to shave off a little bit. I guess the shorter one would be better then for when the bow is at a full draw? Do people ever make three different lengths and switch down to the shorter ones as they go? Do you always shave from the inside there where the pencil mark is? Or can you shave on both sides..
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If you need the Gary Davis DVD, I have them available for sale. Gary and I are close friends. I had him over just today. The DVD is a great tool, especially on your first bow. The books mentioned above are also great. Read and watch all you can. It will definitely help you, and get you pumped even more. If it were me picking which tree, I would go for the osage.
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I wish I had Gary's DVD when I first started out
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Hey Mark, what part of eastern oklahoma are your parents located? Im just west of Fort Smith a few miles, maybe we could get together and I could help you get started on the right track.
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Dang, the osage is probably the only one that we don't have cut and stacked... I would have to cut some down, How long would I have to wait? You can't make it outa green wood can you? I think we have locust. Btw, my parents have about 70 acres of all those trees I just mentioned. Plus I have alot of other areas that I could potentially cut. One of the sycamores has a big burl in it about 30 feet up, I know people like to make different stuff out of that. I've often thought before of trying to get a small portable mill out there and selling some of the nicer wood. If I had a lot of good bowmaking material, and maybe invested in a wood kiln or something like that, do you guys think it would be worth my while? And I don't mean to get rich or really even to make a profit, I just mean to support my newly forming habit!
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Hey okie 64, I didn't even see your post (I was still on page 1 of the thread!). I'm in Tahlequah, I teach part time at the university.
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Osage is the best bow wood hands down. But any of the woods you mentioned will make a good bow. Black Locust and osage are pretty much the only woods that you can leave outdoors or in a wood shed for any amount of time and still make a bow from them. All the whitewoods will ruin in a month or two if the bark is left on them and they are exposed to the weather. A few years ago I had a huge hickory log that I left on the ground for a couple days in the summertime and by the time I got back to it and got the bark off of it the whole thing was eat up with fungus. You can quick dry a stave but its better if it is seasoned properly, we need to get together and I'll give you a good piece of seasoned osage to get started on while you're cuttin and seasoning other woods. If you wait about another month to cut your hickory the bark will peel off like a banana or sometimes it slips off in a couple of huge pieces. I work up close to your neck of the woods around tenkiller pretty much all the time. I'll shoot you a pm with my number and we can talk more.
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Welcome! Wow! That's a who's who of bow woods. I'd start with hickory. Cut it during the growing season. Seal the ends, split into staves and remove the bark before the hits the ground. That bark will pop off quickly. You are looking at the back of the bow. As okie mentioned, white woods (all except osage and BL) do not survive the weather well. Osage is an excellent wood. BL holds a special place in my heart and will prepare you well for using osage. They both work best with a heartwood ring as your back. Please refer to my site for more. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/index.html
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Ok, let me just ask a quick stupid question. Which part is the back of the bow? The part that's facing you when you shoot? Or the part that's away from you when you shoot?
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Oh, and I may not have any wood ready to go based on what I'm hearing here. It's been under a lean-to and up off the ground but I didn't wax the ends of it. I'm sure a little moisture can probably get to it. The red cedar I have is up off the ground but it hasn't been sheltered. It's a HUGE straight cedar tree. I hope it isn't ruined. Most all of what I'm talking about is either up off the ground or in a shop building entirely...
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Hey, I got one other thing. I'm filling up my own thread here. I was taught to make knives when I was in grad school in south carolina. I don't have a proper grinding wheel right now, and honestly, I'm just not as into it anymore. I didn't really get to learn from the guy for very long either, I'm not sure how good at it I am. It's hard. You have to be very precise when hollow grinding. But I still have quite a bit of knife making supplies. The amount I have I bought at a shop in georgia for a little over 300 dollars, so it's good stuff I think. And I believe that was a highly discounted price, that's why we made the drive. I was looking to either get rid of some of it or trade it to someone who could make me a knife or two in return. Are there any knifemakers in my area? I'll probably go post this same question on a new topic, or try to find a site that deals exclusively with knives. Although I do think some of my material could be used for making a gizmo, or horn nocks and what have you. Stuff for bows!
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The part that is facing away from you when shooting is the back of the bow. Treating bow wood correctly from the time it is cut is super important. White woods go bad very quickly.
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What can I do to treat it? Do you rub parafin in to the ends? What would you recommend is the best way to treat wood after you cut it? Does adding the snakeskin help to stiffen/strengthen a bow a little bit (aside from looking really slick)? I would think it is similar to sinew...
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A lot of things will work to seal the ends; shellac, polyurethane, glue, paint, etc.
Snake skin is mainly for decoration and to provide some moisture protection on sinew or rawhide backings. It will not stiffen or strengthen the bow. Some of the large python skins might be thick enough to add a little protection from lifting splinters.
You really need to watch Gary Davis' Rattlestick DVD. It will answer a lot of your questions.
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Scrub doesnt mean using an actual wood treatment on the wood. Hes talking about handling the wood correctly from the time it is cut. After you cut any wood that is intended for bowbuilding the ends should be sealed with shellac, wax, polyurethane, paint or anything that will keep the moisture from escaping too quickly from the ends and causing it to split. With whitewoods, I cut it, seal the ends with shellac, split it into quarters or halves depending on how big the log is, peel the bark and seal the back with shellac. With osage or black locust, I cut it, seal the ends with shellac and split it and then let it sit for a year or so. If you peel the bark from a fresh cut osage or black locust log you need to take the sapwood off at the same time or it will crack all over the place, learned that the hard way. You really should check out Georges website that he posted earlier, it has tons of great info on it.
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Yeah but to cut a large python skin down to fit the bow, you would likely lose the pattern. I guess you could use the "sides" of the snake where the smaller patterns usually are. I don't plan on using snake right away though. I want to make sure I can do it before I ruin a good skin, ya know. So I'll keep it simple at first. I may even make a bow that is somewhat of a toy first. A little one. I suppose that means I would have to have a smaller tillering gizmo though (?) I'm going to look for that dvd and go look at some others that were mentioned. I'm going to my parents place tomorrow, I'll try to get a survey of all the resources available. I know for a fact that they're getting ready to cut down a couple of walnuts, and an ash and hickory that are both standing dead. They just died though, would they be okay? I hope so. There was an ash out there that was probably 4 foot in diameter and was straight as a string for 16 feet and they let it rot. Unbelievable. I heard my dad telling someone that it was the biggest ash he'd seen. I'm going to make sure that doesn't happen again. I'm going to start saving for a portable saw mill. For one thing, I have a ton of family in the area as well and they all have alot of property too. I'm sure I could work something out for timber.
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Oh ok. Yeah that's what I meant by parafin. I was going to melt wax and put that on there. I have rabbit skin glue too. I guess those standing dead trees are no good? We have black locust that I could cut tomorrow. It's all over. I'm actually thinking we may not have any osage but I have plenty of family in the area that does. My friend in mcalester has an enormous osage in his yard. Hey, does anyone else call osage orange a "bois d'arc"? pronounced bow dark.. That's what I always called 'em.
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We actually have more hickory than anything. What is the smallest diameter you can use? If I have a hickory that is 3 or 4 inches in diameter, can I split it down the middle and get two staves out of it? Or do I need to find a bigger limb/tree? I know I need to go buy the dvd, and I will. Just have so many questions now...
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I wouldnt mess with any standing dead whitewood trees. They died for a reason and the wood would be questionable for bowbuilding.The drought over the last couple of years has killed a ton of the hickories and ashes around here so you have to be careful cuttin them this time of year since its hard to tell whats alive and what isnt. Theres tons of osage around stilwell and tahlequah you just have to know where to look for it. Most of the time it will be growing along creek banks around cattle pastures in the valleys. Ive cut a bunch of it up around Fayetteville. Now that you're lookin for it you'll start noticing it all around you. Ive made hickory bows from trees as small as 2 inches in diameter. If you're dead set on cutting some wood right now I would suggest cutting some black locust and waiting another couple of weeks to cut your hickory. As soon as the buds start popping out on trees the bark will peel off very easily. If uou cut it now you're gonna work your butt off gettin the bark off.
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Heres a few hickories I cut last March up around tenkiller and notice how the bark peeled leaving a perfect back right underneath it.
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/7dcadce7.jpg)
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Man, we got hickorys like that all over the place. That's cool, I'll look for the locust for now. I'm not going to get to go out there today, hopefully tomorrow. If the back is the outside of the tree, like splitting the bow would make two staves and the outside is the back, that makes perfect sense to me. But what did that guy mean when he said that osage is great when you can have a "heartwood ring" as the back? Wouldnt' that be in the center of the tree/limb?
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George said that. Sorry, George, I couldn't remember who said it. Sorry I called you "that guy". I apologize for that. But, what do you do to make it where you have the heartwood as the back? Do you end up shaving off a lot more wood that way?
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Do you leave it as a little stripe running from tip to tip?
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Some wood (typically called white woods) you use the sapwood and therefore can peel the bark and that is the back of your bow. Others - like Osage - typically you remove sapwood and work your way down to a single ring of heartwood. Often referred to as "chasing a ring". With the hickory I would suggest sapwood.
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Ok I see. So he wasn't saying to have the ring as a back, but to work your way down to that ring. Has anyone ever cured their wood under water. I just heard today that there was a man around here that would sink his in a pond for a year. How bout that? I got a pond...
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Theres no need to put your logs under water. Ive heard of some of the oldtimers doin that but Its not really necessary. Wood submerged in water is protected from fungus and decay but obviously it cant dry out which is the main thing you are trying to do. If you handle it properly and keep it out of the elements you dont have to worry about fungus or decay. I would suggest you order the bowyers bibles volumes 1 and 4. They have tons of good info in them and will answer a lot of questions for you.
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I did order something already that I saw because it was cheap. It's really old though. I plan to order a few more instructional materials, including rattlestick and the bibles you mentioned. Have you ever made one out of dogwood? I saw a few made out of that and they looked pretty good. Hey, I have a stupid question here, I've heard alot of people talking about how long the fade should be. I wanted to make sure I knew what it was. Is it the part where the handle transitions to the limb? And is 2 to 3 inches pretty standard?
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You are correct on the fade. Handle length and fade can vary but a fade of around 2" in fairly common. I would second the DVD rattle stick. - that is the one I used to get started. Also got "the bent stick" by Comstock and the TBB series.
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I have never tried dogwood but it will make a fine bow,Ive just never found a tree tall and straight enough to use. Most any hardwood will make a bow some just have to be longer and/or wider than others. You're correct on the fades and I usually make mine about 2" or so but they can be longer as long as they are a smooth transition. Its hard to make them much shorter than that as they would be too steep and wouldnt make a smooth transition. I'll try to dig up a pic for ya.
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Heres what mine usually end up looking like. You can see the ring lines tapering away from the handle and into the limb.
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/F3CA9A8D-BC92-4859-A117-0EA445E081D5-9677-0000182C37A1DFED.jpg)
(http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee503/Jamey_Burkhart/EC45D3FF-96FC-4832-9015-9EF133C311F5-9677-0000182C3DBEAB0E.jpg)
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Marahat, as said earlier you need to attend OJAM. It is March 21-24 between Stillwater and Perkins. You are only 2.5 hours away. PM me for details, the event is free. We will have everything you need to learn.
Tommy
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I sent you a pm. I'll definitely try to make it, I hope I can.
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Hey, I read that ALL wooden arrows are made from Port Orford Cedar. Is that true? You can't make them out of local timber? I was wondering how people got the spine and weight correct, I thought maybe they used the same wood that they made the bow from.. I don't know why I thought that, I just thought it made sense.
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Take your time ... i rushed the tiller on my first osage attempt and ended with a snapped limb and lots of foul language.
shes a 2 piece take down now =)
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Oh yeah, definitely. I'm planning for this to be a very long project. I have some experience working with wood, I make woodcut prints. And I've made a few other things. But I'm definitely not going to try to get an immediate result with this. Also, it's my understanding now that you can do everything right and still have a piece of wood break occasionally and have no idea what went wrong. So I'll probably try to have several going at the same time, maybe all from different woods. I don't know, is that a good idea or not?
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Mine was a crime of passion..... Dont know that I could work more than one piece with my form off a.d.d. (Impatience). I wish you luck though!
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Yeah I don't have a whole lot of patience either when I'm trying to make something. I usually tend to seek immediate results. But I'm going to have to control that with this, it seems.