I have read so many posts on here by people wanting to know how much arrow weight ya need to kill deer. I shoot 50# at my 29" draw length. My arrows weighed in at 392 grains and i like to shoot snuffers. Now will this be enough to kill a whitetail?
Well i went out hunting this evening to field test this combo as that is the only way i could think of to find out if it is enough weight to get the job done. I had fawns running around playing and acting like they were scared to death of the squirels. At 5:30 i looked to my left to see a doe and fawn coming in. She walked up to 7 yards and stopped broadside. I figured it was now or never and brought the zipper to full draw. At the shot i thought the arrow looked to be a bit back of where i was aiming. I didn't hear a crash but i figured she didn't go far. I went back to the house to get the camera and to get some traking help.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/cjones/100_2050.jpg)
We returned to start tracking and found blood right away. I only went about 30 yards before i could see her lying about 40 yards ahead. So the end result of my field test is that at 7 yards the shot was a total pass through and stuck about 3 inches into the ground. Now maybe with more weight i could have penetrated into the dirt a lil farther. :D 7 yard shot and 70 yard recovery for my first deer of the season.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/cjones/100_2074.jpg)
Way to go ;) I know way too many people I respect that shoot light arrows with GREAT success to deem them inadequate. I like a 400-450gr. arrow out of my 52#@30" DAS.
Great shot on the doe! She'll be good eatin!
Craig
"A deer can be killed with most any combination if no heavy bones are struck but what is needed is something that will crash through where the going is tough." – Fred Bear; "Hunting Arrows"; published in Ye Sylvan Archer, 1943.
"all else being equal, penetration is the name of the game" – Howard Hill; referring to the success or failure of any given hit; "Hunting the Hard Way"
I've got a collection of broadheads recovered from rifle-killed whitetails, collected for me (still imbeded in the tissue) by commercial game-meat processors in Georgia. Somebody, somewhere is using arrows that aren't penetrating enough; at least on some hits on some whitetails ... and it's more than just a few! :)
Ed
Way to go bro!
Nice deer, just under two weeks before we get our chance.
Way to go Chad. Me, however I like heavy so my hunting and target arrows weigh 800gr+. Out of 60/65# bows. I never need to ask if I have enough bow or arrow,LOL.
Danny
Nice job Chad...Congrats.
if you hit ribs on both sides or a leg bone, you'll be disapointed with the results. Remember, penetration = mass x velocity. My favorite analogy is; throw a golfball into a snowbank then throw a pingpong ball into a snowbank.
But I like the way you baited us on the origiinal question :-)
Hey Chad I was gone for the weekend and meant to email you wishing you luck for the season opener. Guess you didn't need the well wishes ha ha. Congrats. Was that at the farm or behind the house? See any bucks?
Gosh your little girl is growing like a weed! Dianne and I need to get up and see her.
Great Job Chad. Shoot what your comfortable with.
Well done Chad, you certainly have made light arrows work for you.
Doesn't take much to shoot through a whitetail if everything goes right. Personally, I rather push the envelope in the other direction--I've never heard of too much penetration. Hunting ain't target archery--think Jason Westbrock has (or at least had) that in his signiature. Even my rabbit arrows weigh in at 600 grains or better.
Congrats on scoring early on--glad it worked out for you.
Chad
Congrats. It looks like your arrows work ok, my only concern reading this was your bow. 392 is enough by factory standards? Would hate to see a pretty bow get hurt. Nice shooting, and good luck on the antlered variety.
Way to go Buddy! Don't take out too many before I get there in a few weeks.
Chad
What took ya so long to kill one brother. I mean the season has been open for almost 2 days now.
Went out Sat and saw an 8, a 6 and a 4. I coulda spit on the 6 & the 4. Not a doe in town.
Great shooting Chad.
For me, the best wght arrow to shoot at most game in NA is a combination of the one with the best flight and most accurate for me at unmarked hunting ranges (up to 35yds or so). To choose an arrow that might do slightly better on a bad hit, but be less accurate for me at unknown yardages would only serve to increase my need for that arrow.
In other words, for me using an arrow to be prepared for bad hits would only cause more bad hits.
Deer and elk this year with a 420gn ACC from a 51@28 DAS Elite.
Steve
congrats on the scientific experiment :) . That is a good looking set up. And a better looking little Girl.
Ok here is a formula for us scientific types.
grains/450,800m x arrow speed squared= ft lbs of energy. 40= good for deer 50=good for elk. your case
392gr / 450,800 x (your arrow speed squared)=ft lbs
And remember Dead is Dead no matter what formula you use
QuoteOriginally posted by hoebow:
Ok here is a formula for us scientific types.
grains/450,800m x arrow speed squared= ft lbs of energy. 40= good for deer 50=good for elk. your case
392gr / 450,800 x (your arrow speed squared)=ft lbs
And remember Dead is Dead no matter what formula you use
nice analogy where did that come from but yes dead is dead and shoot what is comfortable with you I have heard of a friends daughter getting one with a 28lb bow with a rozor sharp broadhead it all depends on the hit
Nice Chad. Good eating there. But here you are hunting with bait. :p
People don't usually plan for the best possible outcome in any area of life, otherwise, no one would buy insurance. Life is peachy, I never have wrecks, I am in complete control, lightning will never strike my house, no one will ever slip on my wet sidewalk, a tornado NEVER has hit my town before.
Life doesnt work that way, though, does it? Plan for the worst possible outcome, and you will be pleased with the results when THAT happens.
If everything goes perfect, you will STILL kill the deer, and yes, your arrow will be sticking a little further int he dirt on the other side.
Well said Ray..
Congrats on the deer! I am with Ray and the others for the reasons stated.
QuoteOriginally posted by hoebow:
Ok here is a formula for us scientific types.
grains/450,800m x arrow speed squared= ft lbs of energy. 40= good for deer 50=good for elk. your case
392gr / 450,800 x (your arrow speed squared)=ft lbs
And remember Dead is Dead no matter what formula you use
My setup comes to 35.42.
According to the formula - not good enough for even deer? :eek:
51@28 - 420 gr arrow at 195fps - not enough for deer?
Either I did the calculations wrong
or
the formula is wrong
or
the interpretation of the number needed is wrong.
Can anyone tell me which it is?
Steve
I think "insurance" is very important and the best "insurance" is shooting a setup that gives you the greatest chance of a hit right in the sweet spot at unmarked yardage. A "light" arrow in the breadbox will kill 100% of the time. An arrow anywhere else... maybe if you're lucky, you'll still hit something vital. I've shot at unmarked yardage long enough to know just how important a flat trajectory is for minimizing the high and low misses that are, far and away, the number 1 cause of "oops missed again" syndrome.
Trajectory at unmarked yardage is incredibly valuable. It minimizes the difference between the point of impact when we think our target is a few yards closer or farther than what it really is and that difference is often the difference between an ugly miss and a clean kill.
But everyone has to call their own shots on this and play the odds the way they see fit to play the odds. If they think they're better off with a really heavy arrow that they think might improve their chances of a kill no matter how badly the deer is hit; that's one way to look at it. Another is to play the odds for making a good hit and flat-shooting, lighter arrows may be just the ticket. Your game. You choose. :)
But ping pong balls and golfballs are very, very bad science. There is literally no comparison whatsoever between that and heavy or light arrows. I really wish everyone who ever thought that was a good way of explaining their preference for heavy arrows would think about it a bit more. You'll throw both just about as fast but one is 17 times heavier than the other. Ping Pong balls weigh 2.7 grams and golf balls weigh 45.93 grams. That would be equivalent to a comparison between a 400 grain arrow and one weighing 6800 grains (approximiately one full pound). Golf balls and ping pong balls and snowbanks tell us nothing at all about archery, I'm afraid, because the comparisons are so grossly exaggerated and improperly applied as to be completely meaningless.
All that said.... once again, the real point, I think is that if you shoot one arrow weight better than another at unmarked distances within which you plan to hunt, use that arrow, whether it be 1000 grains or 350 grains or anything in between because when it all comes down to the moment of truth, any arrow within that weight range from a hunting weight bow will provide plenty of penetration for a clean kill as long as you hit the kill zone and if you don't do that.... all bets are off and we can only hope lady luck gives us a clean miss, instead.
Hey Chad...lighten up and smile next time! :D
QuoteOriginally posted by cjones:
I have read so many posts on here by people wanting to know how much arrow weight ya need to kill deer. I shoot 50# at my 29" draw length. My arrows weighed in at 392 grains and i like to shoot snuffers. Now will this be enough to kill a whitetail?
Make some freezer space and fire up the grill! :thumbsup:
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
"A deer can be killed with most any combination if no heavy bones are struck but what is needed is something that will crash through where the going is tough." – Fred Bear; "Hunting Arrows"; published in Ye Sylvan Archer, 1943.
"all else being equal, penetration is the name of the game" – Howard Hill; referring to the success or failure of any given hit; "Hunting the Hard Way"
I've got a collection of broadheads recovered from rifle-killed whitetails, collected for me (still imbeded in the tissue) by commercial game-meat processors in Georgia. Somebody, somewhere is using arrows that aren't penetrating enough; at least on some hits on some whitetails ... and it's more than just a few! :)
Ed
Ed, some thoughts for you on this.
Re: Quote #1... I think this was the same Fred Bear that shot at animals as far as he could see them even if he couldn't see them. At that point in time, I think Fred was hoping to bludgeon beasts to death no matter where he hit them and he wasn't always very successful with that approach.
re: Quote #2. I couldn't agree more with this one. But I have to say that the "everything else being equal" part really tells the tale but is often overlooked. Changing the weight of an arrow changes it's trajectory and changing trajectory affects how likely the arrow will or won't be to hit our mark when we inevitably shoot for the wrong distance. In fact, we almost never get the distance quite right and can only hope we're not off far enough to miss the mark completely. That's where it pays to pay attention to arrow weight. A rule of thumb I believe is good to follow is that the bigger and tougher than animal, the bigger and more forgiving the kill zone - err on the heavy side of arrow weight. The smaller and lighter the animal, the smaller and less forgiving the kill zone - err on the lighter, faster, flatter side. With Cape Buffalo, there's a very large and generous kill zone - getting adequate penetration through the ribs is the real challenge. With whitetails, the kill zone is the size of a sheet of paper and you're shooting at unmarked distance. Hitting the kill is the biggest challenge; penetration is the easy part.
Re Quote#3.... Ed, I'd love to get figures from you regarding where those arrows were located in the deer that were rifle shot and recovered. How many of those deer had arrow heads extracted from their heart or lungs or even the chest cavity? My point is that the chest cavity is where we're supposed to hit the animal. Arrow heads recovered from shoulders, hips, spine, etc., only tell us that an archer missed. We don't know what weight bow he was shooting, what he might have hit first with the arrow and I'd wager that based on recovering only an arrow point buried in bone, we can't really know bow weight, arrow weight, distance shot, arrow flight, etc. etc. etc. and, therefore, really can't make any solid conclusions except that the deer suffered a non-fatal hit from an arrow that wasn't shot into the heart/lungs.
Well that arrow isnt light for a light weight bow. :bigsmyl:
If he were shooting a 40# bow which IS legal here in Ohio, that would be almost 10 grains per pound of bow weight
If a 10 grains per pound of bow weight on a 40 pound bow is enough to kill a whitetail,(and the state has determined that it is, and the experience of many has determined so as well) certainly that same arrow, shot out of a heavier bow flying much faster than it would if shot out of a 40# bow, would/should be plenty lethal.
Am I advocating shooting sub 400 grain arrows? Certainly not, and would rather see guys shoting arrows in the 500-600 grain area (which are what my arrows weigh shot out of mid 40# bows) but at 400 grains it's not a a soda straw for petes sake. If it was a 200 grain arrow I'd be screaming with the rest of you , but 400 grains is certainly adequate for deer sized game.
Congrats!!!
Mickey,
You know what gets me is guys complaining about someone shooting a 480 grain arrow from a 60# bow and then reccomending a 480 grain arrow as being PERFECT hunting weight out of a 40-45# bow. LOL!!! Something tells me the deer don't get out their slide rules and calculators to make sure the arrow that just went thru their lungs is capable of killing them before they fall over DEAD! I would also suggest that a 400 grain arrow out of that Zipper has more KE than a 500 grainer out of the same poundage string follow selfbow. I personally have no problem with guys using HEAVY arrows or Light within reason. I hunt with an arrow somewhere in the middle, but have a good friend that uses SUPER HEAVIES. If you are just shooting whitetails and such, I say shoot them if you got them.
Disclaimer- If you are hunting the BIG critters Dr. A is studying, I highly reccomend paying very close attention to his studies and being prepared with heavier arrows and maybe the single bevels. Whitetails and BUFF are apples and oranges in my humble opinion. Millions of dead deer can't be wrong. LOL!!!
I also think arrow tuning and FOC may make more difference in penetration than 100 grains of arrow weight if the tune is not as perfect.
I am going to go attempt my own experiment in a bit. 570 grain Carbon with Razorcaps shot out of a 55# @ 29" DAS. I wonder if I could shoot thru a Buck and a Doe tonight???? I sure am going to try. I already put a moose and a whitetail doe on the ground with that set up and I have a couple more deer tags buring a hole in my pocket, so I will sacrifice for the cause of Science. LOL!!!
"Now will this be enough to kill a whitetail?"
Errrr . Seems you answered your own question ther CJ.
"I went back to the house to get the camera and to get some traking help."
Was that pretty little lady for tracking or just a nice picture? Good job CJ.
CC I also agree that if you were going after elk, moose, brown bears, polar bears, musk ox, large boar hogs, any of the large African game I'd want a bit more in both bow and arrow weight, but whitetail deer? Doesn't take a lot to kill a whitetail.
Mickey,
Thank You......!!
Folks sure do get bent out of shape re the arrow weight issue, almost as much as they do when talking about bow weight. I'm amazed at the speed at which people have become experts on both topics.
Papa Bull,
there is no such thing as an UGLY miss....only an UGLY HIT
With all due respect, if someone needs to worry about arrow drop at twenty to twenty five yards, they have other problems far greater than arrow weight/bow combination.
No one said anyone needs to shoot incredibly heavy arrows. On the other hand, a 51 lb bow at your draw and a 394 grain arrow? Is the bow as quiet as it can be at that weight arrow? I bet not.
Is it going to HURT anyone to shoot 100 grains more in that scenario? I think not. Unless you are a spot shooter at extended yardages and a hunter SECOND, or a hunter who likes shooting stuff at black powder ranges, I don't think your argument works.
Shooting a lighter arrow doesn't guarantee you are going to hit anything any better than shooting a heavy arrow does..and you cannot shoot animals as if they are spots on a target- because animal movement is a variable we CANNOT control...and sooner or later its going to happen to everyone.
When it does, I know I am shooting the most arrow weight I can, and if I don't kill it, it won't be because I didn't give myself every chance by shooting as much arrow weight and momentum possible-still maintaining great arrow flight, given my setup.
Respect for your quarry trumps EVERYTHING in this discussion because we are talking about taking lives.
Robert, you made my point for me. NONE of those recovered heads were from inside the chest cavity - because their penetration stopped before they got that far. Yes, some were stopped on shoulders or spines, but some were also stuck into entrance side ribs. Judging from appearance of the imbedded head in relation to the bones involved, I would say most were on angling impact. Was the angle selected by the shooter, or did the deer jump? Was the arrow deflected by a bit of grass or leaves? Doesn't matter. The outcome was the same; a non lethal hit on a shot where the angle of impact indicates it could have been a killing hit ... if the arrow had penetrated enough to reach the chest cavity.
The others? All they show is that bad hits are going to happen, no matter what. That's even more reason to use an arrow setup that will perform even on the worst of hits. It might not turn every single bad hit into a clean and humane kill, but it will do so for more of them than a lesser arrow setup will.
It is never wise to hunt with a setup that REQUIRES the shooter to make a perfect hit in order for his shot to be lethal. Animals are not practice targets. When we shoot them, our purpose is to kill them. Unlike a poor hit on the range, a bad shot on an animal ends up with more than just a poor score; and it makes no difference whatsoever WHY the hit was not 'dead center'. Your arrow should be capable of killing on ANY hit that's HIGHLY LIKELY to happen, not just on the ones you are fortunate enough to 'hit perfectly'.
Among the bowhunters we guided in Africa (none of which can be called bad shots, in fact, most were WAY above average – at least on targets); on hunts were multiple animal taken were the norm; I can not think of A SINGLE ONE who did not make at least one poor hit ... but CAN think of a few who didn't make a single perfect hit, and some who didn't even make a single 'well-placed' hit. Virtually every 'non-recovered' animal was a result of poor arrow penetration. That's not based on just the appearance of the penetration at the time of the hit. Many of these animals subsequently required putting down with a rifle; either after a long follow-up, or later, by the game scouts. I got to actually examine many of those non-lethal hits.
There's no penalty when you err on the side of 'too much'; there's definitely is a penalty when it's "too little". The 'I can hit more accurately at longer ranges with a lighter arrow' or 'using a heavier arrow will give me more poor hits at longer range' arguments shouldn't even be raised. Bowhunting is not about hitting at longer ranges; it's about the challenge of pitting your hunting skills against the animal, beating them at their own game. Well, unless you're one who bowhunts only so you can kill an extra deer or two.
If one is not bowhunting for the joy and challange of bowhunting, or doesn't have the desire, time, patientce or skill to learn to get close to game before shooting – please, please, please - just use a rifle.
Ed
Wow....this snowballed quick! Congrats anyway...Im happy for ya no matter how much or how little the arrow weighed.
Question? At what GPI is an arrow considered Heavy? Or is the GPI index a wrong place to measure it from? If a 50# bow shooting a 600gr arrow is @12 GPI. Most would consider this an arrow on the heavy side (not super heavy) for a 50# bow. Now the 600gr arrow becomes to lite for a 70# bow at only 8.57 GPI.
Mark
You guys keep making the leap from deer sized game to African sized big game...BIG difference. I believe we were talking deer sized game here. Going by your requirements none of us would even be here because our ancestors weren't shooting "enough bow or enough arrow" to kill game. Our ancestors would have all starved long before we were born.My research indicated our ancestors used bows in the 45-50 pound range and arrows in the sub 500 grain area.
"There's no penalty when you err on the side of 'too much'"
This is not entirely true.
I've got a buddy who shot an elk in the shoulder with an 82 pound compound and a 2419 arrow. Got a couple inches of penetration and the arrow broke off, un recovered elk. Now you can't tell me that 82# and a heavy arrow like a 2419 isn't enough for hunting elk.
While it's true you can't count on each shot being perfect, it's also true that you can shoot more than enough bow and more than enough arrow and still not kill the animal your after.
Maybe we should all be shooting rifles..oh wait..animals are wounded with rifles too.
Ed, the only thing those broadheads can really tell you is that bad hits and bad shot selection results in unrecovered animals. We don't know what bows shot those. We don't know what archers shot them. We don't know their bow weight or arrow weight. We don't know if the arrow was tuned or flying near sideways. But as you said, we do know that there weren't any deer that survived a broadhead to the heart/lungs.
Without even going into the KE vs. Momentum arguments, which have yet to be satisfactorily resolved in any hunting sport yet, there's no question that regardless of KE/ME, it MUST be delivered where it belongs in order to do any good at all. And that's where the penalty comes in when you assume that heavier arrows will provide extra insurance. You end up with an arrow that's harder to deliver where it's supposed to go and will only deliver "extra" penetration if the model that promotes ME over KE is actually correct. Ultimately, what's ideal is enough/adequate KE and the good shot placement.
The very people you quoted in your previous post were among the longest range shooters of all time and though times have changed, I still thik they would consider what they did "bowhunting" even though many today feel that any shot over 20 yards isn't what bowhunting is about. I think the 20 yards and under line of thought came with tree stands, blinds and unprecedented numbers of deer, not just because that's what the essence of bowhunting; albeit I can understand anyone who feels that's what it is all about for themselves.
400 grains is PLENTY of arrow weight for deer, particularly when you're approaching 50 pounds or more of bow. The archer who gears his equipment to shoot the very best for him at unmarked yardage will invariably have a higher shot to kill ratio than a hunter who goes for the most arrow weight his bow can launch when it comes to deer hunting. The latter is so unforgiving of distance estimation that it's guaranteed to cause unexpected low and high misses.
I feel that preaching for the use of the heaviest arrows a bow can launch for hunting may have caused more wounded and unrecovered animals than anything else that has happened recently in this sport.
Using a reasonable weight is... well, reasonable.
Perhaps we just disagree on the definition of "reasonable", because a 400 grain arrow going 190 fps or better packs an incredible punch and is perfectly reasonable for deer since more often than not, you'll end up with two holes in any hapless deer that is between that arrow and the ground it will end buried in after passing through.
Those are my thoughts but I have one question remaining....
QuoteAmong the bowhunters we guided in Africa (none of which can be called bad shots, in fact, most were WAY above average – at least on targets); on hunts were multiple animal taken were the norm; I can not think of A SINGLE ONE who did not make at least one poor hit ... but CAN think of a few who didn't make a single perfect hit, and some who didn't even make a single 'well-placed' hit. Virtually every 'non-recovered' animal was a result of poor arrow penetration.
I have to say I'm flabbergasted to hear that with all the animals you've examined, virtually all were unrecovered due to inadequate penetration meaning virtually none went unrecovered due to poor shot placement. With all those bad shots, I'd think you'd have seen a few that didn't result in recoverable animals simply because they went into meat or bone or intestines or stomach instead of vitals. There's a lot of area on an animal that we don't want to hit.
Show me someone that does everything they can to improve their chances of putting the arrow into the small part of an animal that you DO want to hit and I'll show you someone who will increase his shot to kill ration.
I've lost a few deer, myself and I can assure you that 100% of those losses were due to poor shot placement because they were complete passthroughs. More penetration couldn't have helped because more penetration was impossible. Better shooting fixed the unrecovered problem that great penetration in the wrong part of the animal caused.
Well I guess all this could be tested. Just find 2 people that are close to equal in shooting skills. Tie up 30 live deer through the woods out to 30 yards and let one guy walk through and shoot at them with an 50# bow and a 800gr arrow. Then tie up 30 more live deer and let one guy walk through and shoot at them with a 50# bow and a 400 gr arrow. Or we could just use 3D targets which I already know a lighter arrow = more kills shots at ranges of 30 yards. Yep. My money would be on the 400gr arrow guy.
BTW! Congrats on that deer Chad! Was hoping to see you at the Rarden/festival shoot. It was a fun time
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
With all due respect, if someone needs to worry about arrow drop at twenty to twenty five yards, they have other problems far greater than arrow weight/bow combination.
With all due respect.... do you know an arrow traveling 160 fps drops approximately 68 inches between 0 and 30 yards? Did you know that it drops a full 29 inches just between 0 and 20?
I know for a fact that it's vitally important to worry about arrow drop at 20 to 25 yards. We need to be intimately familiar with our ballistics. The difference between 20 and 25 is denough distance to miss a large buck completely if you shoot for one and it's really another and you've got an arrow velocity 160 fps.
Get the arrow speed up to 195 fps and the drop is still 20 inches, but that's a full 1/3 more forgiving of the inevitable error in judgement.
Shooting 3D for a few decades taught me things about shooting and distances that isn't easily learned any other way.
Let's think about this a minute. The kill zone on a whitetail is 8-10 inches high and about 12 inches in width. Width isn't the problem. It's that up and down that causes us problems unless we just flat screw the pooch on the shot. If it's a very large deer and you aim for dead center, you've at MOST 5 inches high or low that you can afford to miss. One inch outside of that and you've got heartbreak instead of a filled tag. Increasing arrow speed from 160 to 195 means if you saw/guessed/perceived the distance wrong by 5 yards, you BARELY make the kill with the 195 fps arrow. You completely missed everything with the 160 fps arrow. And while that complete miss might sound like an OK outcome, it's only because you missed by 5 yards in estimation instead of 3 or 4. With 160 fps arrow travel, if you think that deer is inside your 17 yard comfort zone and it's really 20, you're going to find out what kind of blood trail you get with a shot to the brisket.
This isn't just paper theories. This is how ballistics work in the real world.
I never could accept the notion that shot placement is so random that it's better to worry about shooting the biggest, heaviest, most awesome arrows we think we can launch. I believe we're way better off worying about taking the right shot at the right time and putting it in the right place.
Chad posted his kill over on the site where I hang out most often, and I congratulated him, and also mentioned that the insurance most speak of when it comes to heavy arrows isn't much of a factor in my mind.
I don't know much about the heavy arrow thing actually, because I've never hunted white-tailed deer with an arrow heavier than 525 grains out of bows up to 60 lbs. Is this heavy arrow thing something new? I didn't know anybody 20 years ago that was using really, really heavy arrows.... most aluminum and cedar arrows being used were in the "normal" weight range of around 400-500 gr. with a 100-125 gr. head. Seems as though there are a lot of trad guys that shoot really heavy arrows these days. Does this mean there are more deer being killed with marginal hits today? Has a deer's anatomy changed or their hides and bones become tougher?
It seems odd to me, that even with the many confirmations of how a 40-50 lb. bow and 400-500 gr. arrow brings down deer after deer... there are still those that say it is flirting with disaster and it shows little respect of ethics in killing a deer humanely. Traditonally, there have probably been more deer killed with a recurve or longbow setup like that, than any other. It's disturbing to me that such a setup seems to be questionable within the trad bowhunting ranks today.... to the point where the "ethics police" do not approve.
See what you went and started Chad. Bet you'll be laughing in the office tonight. :D
How the heck did you feild drees that doe, when I have your knife?
Congrats!
so Papa Bull,
your point is, WHAT? I have shots thousands of arrows at 20-30 yards...if anything I shot dropped five and half feet at those distances I'd give up and buy a gun.
I'm sorry, but all your statistics don't make a difference for me. Whatever my arrow drop is...and it isn't much at 20 and 25 yards...I know what that is without thinking about it..as most instinctive archers do.
Your supposition is that with a light enough arrow we can get flat arrow flight, eliminate arrow drop, and thereby kill everything we shoot at.
All you have to do to disprove that is to watch saturday outdoor channel programming - there are literally dozens of shots every day on there that are misses, bad hits where they slide the camera back to a fist-pumping hero proclaiming "yea, baby" to know that even a sighted bow shooting 300 feet per second soda straws will not guarantee results.
Not once in my post did I name a magic number- but Chad said 394 grains at 51 lb draw and I still say he could increase his arrow weight to 494 grains and not hurt a thing..and if he did hit bone it WOULD make a difference in penetration.
I stand by that.
Match the arrow to the game! 900 gr arrows and skinny single bevel broadhead are not neccesary for deer!
Some of this arrow weight stuff is going overboard.
You don't need to sacrifice trajectory to have a deadly deer set-up.
My Tapered POC are about 575 gr finished. I use 60#@31" and penetration has never been an issue.
I assume most guys POC weighs less than that and doubt they ever question their penetration either.
Tedd
I couldn't help but laugh my way thru the last 4 pages.....Papa Bulls ideas, while I respect his right to state them, make no sense in any practical bowhunting scenarios at all. And all the "I know a guy" instances are incredibly riotus.
Ray's posts are right on and I even have to agree with Ashby's posts....
Hey Chad.....nice deer, good thread, you have us all barking!
I'm going to chime in again, but first I'll say this. I helped a guy get his light-weight set-up together just today. He knows his limitations, and I believe he will stick to them. He's shooting what he can handle now, and it's legal for deer. We discussed the fact that he needs to wait for "the" shot, because he doesn't have a lot of room for error.
Back to the trajectory thing. If you don't know your bow, and/or stay within you own effective range, it isn't going to matter if you are getting 350fps.
I shot with a fellow at a tournament just this past summer. He's one heck of a good shot--within his effective range. He was shooting a bow that is touted for it's speed, and was shooting very light arrows on top of that--it was a smoking fast set-up. When we got to targets that were a bit further than he was used to shooting, he shot low. That fast arrow wasn't magic.
If the shot isn't within your effective range, don't take it--it's that simple. Doesn't matter if you are getting 150 fps or 350 fps. Some people can make a 35 yard shot with a 150 fps selfbow, some can't with a 200+ fps recurve.
I say this because I'd hate to hear about someone hitting the woods thinking their range is automatically extended because they have a fast bow, only to find out the hard way it isn't.
Chad
Good statements Chad
It isn't that those shooting a little more speed feel that it extends their range.
When more speed helps is when you "see" a shot in the woods at 22 yds and it turns out to be 27.
In this case an arrow traveling 195 fps will have a much better chance of staying in the kill then one at 160 - therefore making a better hit.
Steve
Good statement Steve
I will say that Papa Bull's statements are NOT, well...Bull ;) I find that I am more accurate with a certain weight and speed arrow out of my bows. I shoot measurably better, even at 20 yards! To say that extra accuracy, ESPECIALLY at unmarked ranges doesn't mean poo to hunting is off base IMO, and I've shot a LOT of different weight arrows.
Nice deer, done with a 391?. Do I hear 375.
I do not believe that the motive for the light arrow is to compensate for any small errors in yardage estimation on shots 20yds and under more like 40yds and over.
About ten years ago I shot a real nice buck with a 57# longbow,Black Diamond Delta heads with total arrow weight of 505 gr. I hit the lower part of the shoulder blade and the arrow only got 2" of penetration. Did`nt get him. One year later I shot the same deer,same bow,same broadhead,different arrow.This arrow was a Graflex shaft,total arrow weight of 630 gr. The arrow went through both shoulder blades close to the joint and dropped him in 50 yds. I dont care what is said about speed over weight,I know you would kill deer you would`nt kill with a lighter arrow. But shoot what you want,I`ll stay with heavy.
I shot a 700lbs+ bull elk a couple weeks ago w/ a full metal jacket axis shaft tipped w/ a 190gr ace 2 blade.Total weight was 560grs.Out of a 66lbs @ 27'' bow it passthru the shoulder blade and broke the underside rib and burried under the skin on the opposite side.The shot was at 30yrds.(if I could load the disk w/ the photos I would post them)
5 years ago I shot a large bull at 30+ yrds w/ a vapor carbon w/ a 160gr snuffer.Total weight 390grs.Bow was 64lbs @ 27''.I centerd the rib cage and the penatration was way less than disireable.Lost at elk.
So you guys can see where I stand on arro weight issue.
Nice shot Chad! One point to ponder guys,Chad is shooting skinny carbon arrows.I don't care what you say but I have seen the difference in penetration with small diameter carbons.You might also check out Ron La Clairs web site and look at the pic of a shoulder a skinny carbon blew through.carbons don't flex as much as wood or aluminum and penetrate better.Just something else to argue about:).
CB
good job on the deer Chad! and thank you for the free entertainment this post has created. I was having a bad evening but reading this senseless bickering about what arrow weight is BEST to kill a whitetail deer has cheered me up. I think I'll just give up the bow now and buy a granade launcher just to be sure.
:biglaugh:
I don't think that it's about the heaviest and most awesome arrows out there in terms of lethality, but I do think that responsible hunting requires a strong command of the current body of evidence, a complete familiarity and competence with the bow to be used, and a meticulously tuned projectile. In addition, every bowhunter needs to know their limitations and the limitations of their chosen bow/arrow combination within the context of the game they are hunting and the conditions they are hunting in.
It is a complete over-simplification to try and reduce all of the complex variables of successfully taking game with a bow and arrow to discussing arrow weight in a vacuum. Many factors exist that ultimately are a part of this equation. For example, Chad's bow weight and draw length offer him advantages that I do not have at my draw length and weight. Thus, I opt for a much heavier arrow and intentionally restrict my shot distance to under 20 yds to improve my odds of making a killing shot.
I guess that my point is that within reason,there is no absolute truth in terms of hunting weight arrows. Instead, there are pieces of the truth that many people possess based upon their own unique perspective and circumstances...and it should all be assimilated within the context of balance.
This discussion should be less about whether or not Chad's arrow weight was sufficient to kill the deer he obviously killed, and more about congratulating Chad on his achievement and focusing on what works for any one of us given our unique set of characteristics as hunting archers.
When I am hunting, my personal preference is a moderately heavy arrow with a high FOC, and a strong (usually two-blade) BH...but that's what my years of field notes have proven works best for me with my draw weight and length. I have even managed to break bone with my 47# bows with this set-up. Recently, Ed Ashby's studies have validated my findings, but with much heavier bows, arrows, and critters.
So...let's not get too judgemental about this whole issue. I like a minimum of 10 GPP of draw weight, others like 12 GPP, and Chad seems to like a bit less...maybe with a 29" draw I would to :) . Let's just remember that when comparing arrows from archer to archer, we are not comparing apples to apples...so all generalizations go completely out the window.
Claudia
All good "food for thought"..
Been a long, long time since I killed a deer with a rifle, but I did kill a few and a LOT of hogs that were in crops.. Killed them with everything from a .22 long rifle to a .338. I guess more is better, but----a dead hog is dead.
I can't shoot an 80+ pound bow anymore.. I did years back and killed a lot of game. I've also killed a lot of game with 45-50 pound bows. I don't have any experience with arrows lighter than 500 grains though.. Looks like they worked fine in this instance.
Nice doe, CJ.... So tell us, did you intend to lure everyone into this discussion?
Good job, grin...
PineL - Thanks.
QuoteI do not believe that the motive for the light arrow is to compensate for any small errors in yardage estimation on shots 20yds and under more like 40yds and over
Believe it or not - its true for me. The fact that it would make a difference at 40 and over means nothing to me since my limit is several yards under that. If you will reread my post, you will see how it can make a difference at shorter ranges when your "instinct" sees the range wrong in the woods.
Steve
Well said Claudia. Though I doubt you'll stem the tide with common sense. Regardless who's common sense is applied. lol
********
"The archer who gears his equipment to shoot the very best for him at unmarked yardage will invariably have a higher shot to kill ratio than a hunter who goes for the most arrow weight his bow can launch when it comes to deer hunting. The latter is so unforgiving of distance estimation that it's guaranteed to cause unexpected low and high misses."
********
Next year marks a half-century since my first big-game bow kill (a Texas Whitetail). I didn't start keeping a record of every shot until 1982 but, excluding small game (which I've never kept records for), using the best penetrating arrow I could assemble - along with careful management after the hit - has allowed me to achieve a wound-loss rate well below 1% (0.66%, to be specific).
That wound-loss rate reflects a TOTAL of four hit but non-recovered large animals since starting to keep kill-records (out of over 600 HITS). None of those four non-recovered animals can be attributed to a lack of arrow performance. One was purloined by other hunters and three simply went where I and my shattered knees could no longer follow. Despite that I'm looking to improve on arrow penetration. Why? Because some of the bad-hit kills I made still had marginal penetration, requiring difficult follow-ups. Lady Luck smiled several times, but there were anxious moments; times when I would have given a lot for just a couple more inches of penetration. I've never lost an animal because my arrow penetrated too much - nor has anyone.
Lady, my favorite hunting longbow, racked up just over 300 consecutive kills, without hitting and losing a single big game animal. The average distance for all the shots was just under 16 yards. FAR over half were taken while stalking; not from blinds or tree stands. A flat-shooting arrow was required for none.
For those who think buffalo testing is not applicable to lighter big game such as deer, consider that the scapular ridge on a mature whitetail buck can easily be an inch thick. The head of the scapula on most any mature whitetail, does included, is often an inch or more in thickness - and the head of the humerus (the shoulder's ball joint) on virtually any shooting-size whitetail will be 1" to as much a 2-1/4" thick. Even a moderately steep angular impact on a deer's scapula or elk's rib can require that your broadhead penetrate an inch of bone before reaching anything vital.
Game animals are not 'targets'. Whenever we shoot one, our purpose is to kill; and kill as quickly and humanely as possible. A 'bad hit' on a target only results in a poor score. Every single 'bad hit' that results in a non-recovered animal has far greater implications; from both a practical and moral standpoint, as well as for our sport as a whole.
It is never wise to hunt with a setup which requires a near-perfect hit in order to be reliably lethal, yet many seem to consider such a setup as representing 'adequate'; which they generally qualify by adding, "as long as you do your part and put it in the right place." To be adequate your setup should be capable of killing cleanly and humanely on as many of the hits LIKELY to occur as possible; not just on near-perfect hits.
Consider that the VAST MAJORITY of today's bowhunters ARE using fast, flat shooting arrows, yet every shred of data; and every study of bowhunting's wound-loss rate; indicates that that they are still making a lot of poorly placed hits, many of which ARE resulting in non-recovered animals (which is not necessarily to say that the animal doesn't often recover from such hits); and EVERY bowhunting wound-loss study indicates this. Saying that a faster arrow results in more killing hits simply does not correlate with the results of ANY researcher's data.
Ed
Ed, I also think that a lot of todays hunters don't devote nearly enough time to practicing that they should. Many think that 300+ fps and a set of pins ensures good hits. Traditional equipment takes devotion to putting in the time shooting be it targets, stumps, 3d or whatever gets you shooting. 1000 grain arrow isn't going to help someone who doesn't know their limitations or can't shoot worth a whit.
Of course I shoot telephone poles pretty much from my bows. LOL
You're right SteveB it probably doesn't apply to everyone. How much trajectory difference is there with a plus or minus 100grains between 20 and 25 ? Wouldn't an arrow that hit too high be the same as one that hit too low? Couldn't you error the other way in your yardage judgement thinking that it was further away than it actually was?
The primary motive is for the longer yardages.
Dave, I coundn't agree more! I think that the time and devotion that Trad equipment requires TENDS to make us more mindful of these things. That's not to say that all guys shooting wheel-bows are not true bowhunters; or that everyone who shoots with a trad bow is a 'true bowhunter'. I've many wheel-shooting friends who are excellent bowhunters too. However, there's no doubt that an awful lot of those who 'casually hunt' with a bow (of any sort) are simply doing so because rifle season is closed!That's why I try to make a destinction between bowhunters and those who simply hunt with a bow because they cant be using anything else at the moment.
Ed
I am only gonna post one more thing. As I stated I shoot 800+ gr arrows out of 60/65# bows and I shoot in my practice round from 10 to 40 yards. I do not notice any drop. Now that may be cause my internal computer has seen the sight picture enough that it knows when it looks right for any given yardage. Saying that you need a light arrow to shoot a flat trajectory just does not compute. My arrows fly pretty flat out to 40 yards, I would not shoot at an animal that far away but I know if that was the only shot I had and it felt right I could put the arrow in the right place. Even at closer ranges things just sometimes do not go right no matter how hard we try, the animal takes a step just as we release and such. This happened to me and if I had been using a light arrow the results would not have been good. But with my heavy arrow and sharp 200 gr Ace i split the elbow joint of my bison and sliced through the heart and he was dead in 20 seconds. I was aiming at the crease just above and behind the elbow and he stepped forward with the off leg at release bringing the elbow of the near leg into play,25 yard shot. So I will keep using my heavy arrows and big broadheads. If ya want to use light arrows then that is your perogative.
Again Good Job Chad, glad it worked for you.
Danny
Ed,
So whitetail hunting should be done at 16 yds and under with very heavy arrows or a hunter may not be a bowhunter - just simply someone who hunts with a bow?
I would like to feel that was not your concious implication, but it is real easy to read it that way.
Ed,
To further make your point....I worked as a whitetail guide at a bowhunting only commercial operation for 2 years. I met and hunted with hundreds of compound bow hunters from all across the world. 99% of those hunters shot very fast (300 fps) arrows that were very light, short and had 90-125 grain broadheads. I spent many days and nights trailing deer. Very few hunters made pass through shots. The large majority of the shots resulted in the following:
1. deer were found half dead by trail dogs a long way from the shot site, in which dogs completed the kill or 2. dogs finally caught up with the barely wounded deer and killed the deer that would have never died or 3. the deer were never recovered due to nonfatal wounds.
Rarely were there good clean kills from the bows mentioned above. The only hunters that routinely made the best kill shots were the guides that used fast compound bows with heavy arrows and 150+ grain broadheads. I personally used a 73 lb. recurve with fairly heavy arrow/broadhead setup and never had trouble cleanly harvesting deer.
I wish I would have kept good data each day. I am quite sure of two things that I learned from that experience. If it weren't for amazing trail dogs we would have never found nonbleeding deer resulting in extremely low recovery rates, and lighter, faster bullets from a bow is not the way to ethically harvest a whitetail deer.
The game laws where I live do not accurately reflect or encourage ethical hunting with a bow.
Richie
Rico,
My primary range misjudgements in the woods are to see an animal as closer then it is. Therefore the speed I chose to shoot does not drop as much as one 30 fps slower when the animal/target is a few yards farther then I "see".
Well you shouldn't feel that way Steve. The good Doctor and I have been having a conversation about this in PM. If you want to know who he is talking about, go visit an archery shop or a Wal-Mart the week before season and watch how many new bows get sold and tags. Just like the week before rifle season when all those bore-sighted rifles leave the store and hit the woods unfired. I have a much longer effective range than I discuss on the boards as do a few others I know here, but I also usually practice at least 1-3 hours a day.
Sorry if it reads that way Steve. Note that the "just under sixteen yards" is "the average". However, I do try to keep all my shots at a self-imposed 22 yards or less - even though I can 'point directly' at the target up to almost 30 yards and still not have enough arrow drop to miss the kill zone on most of the smaller big game animals. I build in those 'extra yards' to allow for any error in range estimation on my part. Years of practice and hunting in a wide verity of terrain tells me that that's enough to allow for my worst range estimation.
There's a huge number of physiologic-optics studies (most by the military) showing that very, very few people can accurately estimate even 20 yards when 'viewing conditions' are not what they are THOROUGHLY accustomed to - even when given all the time they'd like, prior to taking their estimated guess.
If one is trying to shoot at the limit of their arrow's trajectory, there's just too much room for error. Rangefinders work, if that's what folks want to do, but they won't stop animals moving ... or intervening twigs from going unseen.
Ed
Richie, thanks for that bit of information. I too wish you had kept careful records. I think the only way one can comprehend what you're saying is to have either hunted a great deal, or to have been a guide watching others hunt ... and I think the guide is the one who sees it most clearly. He gets to see a lot of different setup in use (and deal with the aftermath). It doesn't take long to see the difference.
Ed
QuoteOriginally posted by Biggie Hoffman:
if you hit ribs on both sides or a leg bone, you'll be disapointed with the results.
I don't want to appear to be argumenative Biggie, but I have used a setup nearly identical to Chad's, and have broken rib going in and/or going out on more than several occasions. Obviously, I wasn't too disappointed with the results.... like a dead deer with holes on each side. I think Pinecone has pretty much talked the most sense in all of this rambling actually. Thank you Claudia.
A deer is, indeed, a target. Or to be more precise, the kill zone on a deer should be the bowhunter's target. We can quibble about semantics till the end of time but it won't change the definition of "target", which by one of the primary definitions is: "something aimed or fired at". If deer aren't our target, we're not deer hunting.
All clean kills require one of two things. Pure dumb luck, or better.... a shot to the kill zone. There is no "almost perfect" shot. An "almost perfect" shot on a deer is a bad shot. Anywhere in the heart-lung area is a perfect shot. Almost perfect shots all too often result in really long blood trails that peter out to nothing and some may believe heavy arrows will fix that, but I've done a fair bit of hunting myself and I don't buy it. If you hit the kill zone, you're in. If you don't.... you better hope lady luck is going to give you a big peck on the cheek.
Different strokes for different folks. If someone wants to shoot deer with fishing arrows at 10 yards, that's fine with me. I'll stick to my 400 grain arrows going 195 fps. As I hear so often "works for me". And it works for me extremely well. In fact it works for a lot of people extremely well. Everyone has to make their own choices. I go for "light" but flat shooting and have yet to lose any animal I've ever shot due to "lack of penetration", but then again.... I'm a whitetail hunter, my setup is for whitetails and it's matched well for whitetails. I wouldn't shoot a buffalo with a .270 and I wouldn't shoot a deer with a big bore double rifle. I take the same approach to bowhunting.
Thanks everyone for the congrats. Looks like i went and kicked the hornets nest. Btw, What will this set up do when it hits shoulder bone and ribs? It does this and i have witneses! :D
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v81/cjones/chadshunt3.jpg)
:campfire:
Dr. Ashby, I have to say that is the most impressive recovery ratio I have ever seen. You must be an outstanding tracker. Have you had any clean misses?
QuoteOriginally posted by Rico:
You're right SteveB it probably doesn't apply to everyone. How much trajectory difference is there with a plus or minus 100grains between 20 and 25 ? Wouldn't an arrow that hit too high be the same as one that hit too low? Couldn't you error the other way in your yardage judgement thinking that it was further away than it actually was?
The primary motive is for the longer yardages.
A flatter trajectory will reduce BOTH high and low misses. Guess it too short or too long and both will be closer to your mark with a higher velocity arrow. And it does make a difference at "short" yardage under 25 yards. That's one of the things 3D will teach you that you aren't going to learn any other way. Lots of those "damn, missed right over" or "damn, missed right under" have a lot more to do with mis-guessing yardage than it does looking at a deer's feet or looking at the air over his back.
You can think it's b.s., but thinking that is going to cost you. Remember that the next time you miss high or low.
Once again, Congrats on the nice buck.. Is that where the arrow exited or entered ?
Got a good season going there.
Pat, That is the buck i killed last season. That is the entrance wound and the arrow exited between the front legs right where the ribs all come together.
Hello, still looking for an answer to my question on page 3.
Thank You Mark
I thought it was rhetorical Mark.
Chris, I'm a fair tracker. It's getting tougher as I get older though. I need my 'tracking glasses' on nowadays. And, yes, I've had misses; but not so many as I did many years ago. I FINALLY learned to 'hunt close' and try only the high percentage shots; and FINALLY worked out what type of arrow setup it took to turn the highest number of hits into kills. I also learned a lot about how to manage follow-ups after the shot; and that's a HUGE factor in animal recovery.
In years past, I did a goodly amount of terminal ballistic field studies for Barnes Bullets, and was on their Technical Advisory Board. On poorly placed hits, a TRULY SHARP broadhead is far more lethal than a bullet - if the arrow penetrates - and they give a higher recovery rate too!
Ed
Not at all Dave, If we are to use the GPI as a standard, what is considered a heavy arrow?
Thank You, Mark
I think you'll get as many answers to that as you will to a what is the best bow/broadhead/etc thread.
I would use GP# instead of GPI though personally. I am more along the thoughts I thought you were presenting on page 3. 9-11 GP# is a moderate weight arrow by the way most go on here it appears. So I would say anything over 11 GP# is entering the heavy side and less the lighter side.
I like to shoot arrows that fly well from my bow at a speed that clocks well with my brain shooting and will do what I need on the size animals I'm after at the time.
Clear as mud ain't it?
Mark, Are you asking about GPI (grains per inch) or GPP(grains per pound)? If it is gpp, i consider 10gpp to be heavy and 6 gpp to be light!
Yes GP# sorry... I have always tried to get as close to 10 GP# as a starting point. Right now at 520gr 56# at my draw (9.2) Perfect flight...Thanks for your response......Mark
Chad,
It's pics like that buck, as well as others with lighter arrows going straight through elk ribs, Ron LaClair's pic of the shoulderblade hit, and many others that tell me there is something more to it.
IMO, it has much more to do with #1 Arrow Flight and #2 Broadhead design. I hope that with more experience I can confirm this hypothesis.
Craig
Mark, I don't use grains/pound of bow force as a "standard". To me, it's nothing more than a reference point; just like static-spine is; or the way we archers measure arrow FOC. The 10 grains/pound guideline dates all the way back to the time when almost all bows were self-wood. Bow efficiency has changed a lot.
As you increase arrow mass, a bow's efficiency continues to increase. However, at a certain point of arrow mass, though bow efficiency is still going up, the RATE AT WHICH IT IS INCREASING shows a marked decline. Using a chronograph lets you find this point for your bow; with you doing the shooting. That takes in everything, including how good your release is.
In the 'old days' I think folks just came up with the 10 gr/lb. rule of thumb simply because they could notice the difference in how arrows shot off the typical bows used when they reached that 'drop-off' point. They merely used the heaviest arrow they could until they noticed an ABRUPT change in arrow flight at long range. ("shooting the wand" was done at about 120 yards!) Over the years it's likely that they just put two and two together; noting that, for most bows they encountered, the relationship between the two was a 10 to 1 ratio.
Interestingly, for virtually every self-wood bow I've tried this with, the chronograph indicates that this 'drop-point' is right around 10 grains of arrow mass per pound of draw force. On the other hand, with some of the high-performance bows, such as Cher's ACS-CX, it just over 15 grains per pound of draw-force.
Troy Breeding did some similar testing with his ACS-CX (at his much longer draw length than Cher's 26") and came up with well over 16 grains of arrow mass per pound of draw-force before there was any decline in the rate of increase in efficiency. That difference is likely the difference between the quality of each individual's release.
Today, there's not a clear-cut rule for what constitutes a 'heavy arrow'. The old 'rule of thumb' isn't as applicable as it once was, but such 'common knowledge' dies harder than a toad in mud.
Most modern trad bows will cast an arrow with a mass or 12 to 15 grains per pound of bow-force (and often, even more) with a trajectory that would have been considered increadibly flat-shooting just sixty or seventy years ago - for any arrow.
Don't know if that answers your question, but it's the best I can offer you. I'm sure O. L. could be a lot more precise!
Ed
Thank you, The 10 GP# is what was passed down to me when I first started 20+ years ago.
Mark
Norb, I was killing myself trying to get behind the deer and situated before the self timer went off!
Joe, Luckily i had another knife to use. Leroy made one for me as a gift back in june and i broke it in on this doe.
Mickey, I killed this one behind the house. I do have good news as the people who were buying my grandparents' property had some trouble and we should have it for the rest of the season!
QuoteOriginally posted by Dr. Ed Ashby:
In the 'old days' I think folks just came up with the 10 gr/lb. rule of thumb simply because they could notice the difference in how arrows shot off the typical bows used when they reached that 'drop-off' point. They merely used the heaviest arrow they could until they noticed an ABRUPT change in arrow flight at long range.
Ed, the popularity of Port Orford cedar as the de facto standard of arrow wood indicates to me that archers actually looked for the lightest wood hunting arrows they could shoot, rather than the heaviest. All the really tough hardwood shafts are much, much heavier but weren't popular shaft materials until recent years when people became obsessed with "heavy arrows".
Increasing arrow weight will likely increase a bow's efficiency in single digit percentages. How important is it to do that? I'd say it depends on how minimal the bow setup is. For cape buffalo, I think it's more important than it is for whitetails. Whitetails are regularly killed by bows in the 40 pound range. 50 pounds is a 20 percent increase and 60 pounds is a full 40 percent increase. Shooting 8 grains per pound instead of 12 or 15 or whatever might reduce the bow's efficieny by 5 or 6 percent, but that HARDLY makes it marginal. It's still serious overkill. And if the goal is to maintain more than enough penetration power with a flatter, more forgiving trajectory, the guy shooting a 50 pound bow with 8 grains per pound achieved that.
We are about the same size as a deer and I can't imagine anyone thinking they'd fare any differently if they got shot with a 400 grain broadhead tipped arrow instead of an 800 grain broadhead tipped arrow.
As someone already mentioned. The 400 grain arrow that is 10 grains per pound out of a legal 40 pound bow is only that much more deadly coming out of a 50 or 55 pound bow that much faster.
Nice shooting Chad. Now you can relax and concentrate on those bruisers you have running amuck in your area.
okay, is this ENOUGH for whitetail?
my longbow is 46#s. I shoot a 450 grain carbon arrow at an 'average' of 182fps.
my recurve is also 46#s. I shoot the same 450 grain carbon arrow at an 'average' of 188fps from it.
I use very sharp multi-blade cut on contact heads (my arrows fly great from both bows) and I keep my shots within 20 yards. I also practice about everyday. This will be my 3rd season with traditional gear. Filled all my tags the past two seasons plus, I hunted with wheels 30 or so years prior to switching with MANY, MANY kills so I'm no beginner. In my mind I already know the answer but am VERY curious what the experts think about my set-up.
thanks in advance :thumbsup:
Funny thing is Danny, you and Chad are producing very close KE with your set-ups. You have plenty as we both know you already know. For whitetails that is. :p
Papa Bull, your supposition regarding cedar shafts is actually inaccurate. Port Orford USED to be a high quality arrow wood that was heavier on average than it is now.
It is one of the reasons I got out of the arrow business...when I got acme premiums in big lots years and years ago they were much heavier than today's cedars.
POC is not cut down now like it was in the first half of the last century (man that makes me feel old to say that)and hence wood quality is not what it was.
Fire killed trees, downed limbs, essentially picked up wood is all that gets used now if my sources are right...even as short a time ago as the mid eighties cedar was much more readily available in heavier shafting than it is today.
Talk to anyone of the ol'timers like Kelly for example and he will tell you the same thing.
QuoteOriginally posted by Ray Hammond:
Papa Bull, your supposition regarding cedar shafts is actually inaccurate. Port Orford USED to be a high quality arrow wood that was heavier on average than it is now.
It is one of the reasons I got out of the arrow business...when I got acme premiums in big lots years and years ago they were much heavier than today's cedars.
POC is not cut down now like it was in the first half of the last century (man that makes me feel old to say that)and hence wood quality is not what it was.
Fire killed trees, downed limbs, essentially picked up wood is all that gets used now if my sources are right...even as short a time ago as the mid eighties cedar was much more readily available in heavier shafting than it is today.
Talk to anyone of the ol'timers like Kelly for example and he will tell you the same thing.
Ray, my supposition is that cedar is lighter than ash, maple, dogwood and even chundoo and that it's always been less dense than these other favored "heavy wood" arrows, by it's very nature. I think we'd be hard pressed to argue that in the good ol' days POC was the premium "heavy shaft" material. It was just a premium shaft material and has always been one of, if not THE lightest of all the wood shafts.
Granted, I wasn't making cedar arrows 50 years ago, but I was making them 25 years ago and they were still the lightest wood shafts of any type at that time.
In fact, it's primary advantage was "light to moderate" weight, whereas everything else, including yellow cedar is "moderate to heavy" or just plain "heavy". POC is the easiest to break (least durable) of all the arrow woods. Maple is much tougher. So is Ash. So is yellow cedar. And yet, POC was the de facto standard. It had "good cast" and that was a result of it's light to moderate weight and despite the advantages of the other woods in terms of toughness, straightness and durability, the lighter POC was "the" arrow wood.
Port Orford Cedar has always been a premium arrow wood for qualities other than weight, such as ease of straightening, abiltity to stay straight, good recovery from paradox, and believe it or not the abiltity to make a desired weight hunting arrow. It just so happens that up until 25 years ago archers shot mostly 45-50 pounds in draw weight (which is why so many old bows.Bears, Pearsons etc, of that weight are still available ). It's rare to find a 55#er or heavier. Port Orford Cedar easily made a 450-550 grain arrow with a 125-150 grain head which would have given them the desired 10 GGP.
That's good news Chad :thumbsup: :clapper:
It was not uncommon for me to have many dozen POC shafts that were in matched dozens exceeding 550 grains as raw shafts.
That is not true any longer.
This thread is so funny! CJ posted what I took as a tongue in cheek thread and man did the "authorities" come out of the wood work. They would seem to say, "my opinion is correct, yours is off base"! I STILL say nice job CJ. You must gave your equipment "TUNED" to perfection! Kind of surprised the thread live this long.
QuoteOriginally posted by the Ferret:
Port Orford Cedar has always been a premium arrow wood for qualities other than weight, such as ease of straightening, abiltity to stay straight, good recovery from paradox, and believe it or not the abiltity to make a desired weight hunting arrow. It just so happens that up until 25 years ago archers shot mostly 45-50 pounds in draw weight (which is why so many old bows.Bears, Pearsons etc, of that weight are still available ). It's rare to find a 55#er or heavier. Port Orford Cedar easily made a 450-550 grain arrow with a 125-150 grain head which would have given them the desired 10 GGP.
That's good news Chad :thumbsup: :clapper:
I hope you didn't think I was implying that there were no other positive qualities for POC. There are, but those other qualities are not exclusive to POC at all. It is important to note, however, that I completely agree that the recovery from paradox is a good quality of POC and that corresponds to it's stiffness to weight ratio, which is better than other shafts. I.E. For a given spine, it can be lighter and that's why it recovers so well. While it's possible to get arrows of "medium weight" out of POC, it's also possible to get "light" arrows out of POC and it's that light to medium weight combined with other good properties that made it attractive even though it's not nearly the most durable of the wood shafting materials.
I'm bowing out of this thread. I think there's been enough for anyone to think about. Whatever choice anyone makes is theirs and theirs alone and there's no "right" or "wrong" choice. I do not imply there is and hope we all are gracious enough to allow the next gentleman to make his own decisions and respect him for doing so.
Actually both Sitka Spruce and poplar will generally run lighter than POC. There may be others--I'm no arrowsmith, and there's lots I don't know about wood.
POC will usually break easier than some hardwoods, but quality arrows aren't easy to break--especially if you keep them on target. I've found that if you miss, no arrow material has dibs on which one is easier to find (without a metal detector at least, where aluminum has a slight edge).
I prefer POC for the reasons Ferret described. Of all the woods I've tried--maple, ash, sitka spruce, douglas fir, logepole pine/chundoo, laminated shafts, and probably a few more I don't recall off-hand--POC has had the best over-all qualities for arrows. One of the unique qualities of POC is most of it's moisture is not water, but oil. The sad part is good POC is getting harder to find.
My experience with hardwoods is they are a royal pain in the butt to straighten and keep straight. The one time I tried maple shafts, several of them broke on the first shot while bare-shafting into soft foam. Probably bad shafts, but enough to steer me away from them.
FWIW, I have no problem getting arrows in the 600-650 grain range with 125 grain points, and I don't do anything extra to add weight.
Back to the topic though.......no doubt killing shots can be made with lighter set-ups, and as long as it's legal I won't condemn someone for using what works best for them. I just don't feel comfortable pushing the limits myself, and speaking for myself and my personal experience in shooting and watching fast, light arrows being shot, there is no real advantage--at least within what I consider reasonable hunting distances. I've probably seen (and made) as many shots go high as low when they were mis-judged. I guess the mental aspect could be accounted for--if you think you will shoot better with a certain set-up you generally will, even if there are no physical advantages.
When you get right down to it, nothing will replace time behind the bow as far as being able to put the arrow where it needs to go.
Again, I hope that nobody reads this and gets the idea that they can magically add 10-20 yds to their hunting range just because they swapped over to a faster set-up; or think "well, I'm not real sure, but since I'm getting X-fps I'll give it a try".
Chad
Ted, the only authority on this thread is Ed Ashby. Some of the rest of us just have a lot of miles on us....I've been in on 400-500 hog kills, and over 1000 whitetails. Seen a lot of stuff during the journey.
You know what they say about opinions....I got one of them too.
I don`t know that much about arrow weight ,I got cheap scales BUT.in MY experience carbons with BIG two blades and 100 grain adapters work better than anything I`ve shot. I shoot around 50lbs. My next favorite set up is 2020 aluminums with the same broadheads. Mag1 ,zwickey delta or simmons landsharks.My experience with a carbon without heavy insert was . The first deer I hit throught the ribs it was a pass through and recovered easy. the secound I hit shoulder blade with a landshark and the arrow went in and broke at the insert.No recovery.You guy`s do really good with the light side of it and I`1m happy for you. I don`t do so well so I shoot little more arrow weight.I have killed one or two...RC
I've never had the need to know the yardage inside of 20 yards. So what difference would flatter trajectory make-----it would only make a difference if I were a gap shooter. Even if the yardage was 25 I wouldn't know it. I am not the most experienced instinctive shot by any means, but I have taken several animals with instinctive shooting.I do know that I have killed animals at 25 yards and slightly beyond and never thought about what the range was. I do realize what is close and what is far, but that's about the extent of it. It is MHO that practice is critical so that my mind recognizes familiar scenarios as I come to full draw. This will work no matter what arrow weight I choose, so why not shoot something that is more likely to split a scapula in two than not? Hope I ain't buttin in here. :bigsmyl:
QuoteOriginally posted by cjones:
Pat, That is the buck i killed last season. That is the entrance wound and the arrow exited between the front legs right where the ribs all come together.
Chad, you seem to have the deer-killing part down and this photo you ALMOST cracked a smile. Guess we need to send Vance down to take your hero shots to loosen you up a bit... :thumbsup:
Beautiful deer Chad, congrats!
This thread reminds me of something that happened a few weeks ago when some friends and I were hanging out at the local archery shop, as we often do. My friends are staff shooters who work there one night per week. I'm just a bum who likes to talk about bowhunting.
A customer came in and wanted to buy a 70# Bowtech. They had a lot of 60# bows on the rack, but nothing 70#. We asked what he needed a 70# bow for. He said he was going to hunt whitetails and needed lots of Ke.
My buddy Dave looked at me and asked, "What did you kill that bull moose of yours with last year?" Kind of a leading question really, since he and I went on that hunt together.
"A homemade recurve."
"And how much Ke did you have?"
"I don't know exactly. My arrows were 520 grains going about 194fps, so I suppose that's somewhere around 47 foot-pounds or so. Probably about what you'd get out of a 50# compound."
"How much penetration did you get?"
"In one side, split a rib vertically, out the other side and way off into the cutover. It took us longer to find the arrow than the moose."
Dave looked back that the guy and asked, "So how big are those whitetails you're hunting this year?"
Chad, next time ya wanna stir the pot just get a little bigger spoon lol.Now if ya shot that deer with a das and a sight on your bow.ya better be ducking.
CB
Congrats Chad!
:clapper:
Nice deer Chad any deer at any distance is nice, If some of you guys and gals come out here to the southwest you mite think about shooting more than 20 yards, you just don't have the cover, or a tree to sit in, 20 to 40 yards, is the norm. :banghead:
The formula is just that a formula. There is a scientific formula for everything. There is a scientific formula for walking across the street. That doesn't mean that a 30lb bow with a razor sharp broadhead won't do the job. That is the beauty of bow hunting. The critters die from blood loss, not kinetic energy. That is why we are quite in the woods and gun hunters are not.
CB, If it helps, I am a gap shooter! :bigsmyl:
Good job, buddy!! :thumbsup: Got home from a trip yesterday and couldn't find a doe to shoot at... did pass on 5 different bucks.
Charlie, I wish i had that problem, all i am seeing is does. I shot this one out of the stand behind the house where Vance demonstrated his tree climbing ability!
Neat spot and I remember it well... you ever get Vance's finger marks out of that steel ladder? :D
No i didn't but on the bright side, i have neat finger grooves for when i climb. :bigsmyl: