Trad Gang

Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: OzarkMatt on March 29, 2012, 12:01:00 PM

Title: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 29, 2012, 12:01:00 PM
I just started tillering my new bow and after working with it for a while and getting a few inches of movement on the longstring I noticed that one of the limbs had taken about 1/2" of set while the other had taken none. I looked very carefully for hinges but can't find any. I have it tillered right now so that the limb without the set bends even with the limb with set.

What should I be doing here? Should I tiller the limbs separately so that the one with the set ends up about 1/2" lower then the other at full draw? Should I make the limbs come to even at full draw?

Bow info: Red oak, drywall tape backed, Flipped tips set in with heat, 70" OAL, 1 1/4" wide at the handle continuing out to 12" from the tips where it starts narrowing to 1/2" wide tips.

Pic with few in. of limb movement. The limb on the right has the set.     (http://i.imgur.com/Ijjdo.jpg)
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: SportHunter on March 29, 2012, 12:16:00 PM
Looks like your limbs are very stiff & the only bending is at the fades. You need to taper the limb thickness slowly from thicker at the fades to thinner at the nocks & get more of the limb bending. Just to give you an idea the limb at the fades may be 9/16' to 3/4' thick then thin to 1/2'' thick then to 3/8'' by the time it gets to the nock area.

You want the thicknes to be gradual and smooth.
Also look up how to make a "gizmo" (its in the "How to" forum) that will help you tremendously with tillering.

Of course if you are working with a pyramid style design the thickness taper will be very slight.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 29, 2012, 12:21:00 PM
SportHunter, I forgot to mention it in the original post but I did taper it almost exactly like you said, starting at 3//4" thick then narrowing to 3/8" thick at the tips.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: SportHunter on March 29, 2012, 12:42:00 PM
Just making sure you get the concept. Just keep thinning the limbs that way. The limbs will start bending more. I like using a scaper at this point so wood removal is controlled. Scrape with the grain. I would start scraping your mid limbs say 4''-6'' past your fades to get the mid limb bending, leave the outer 6-8'' stiff for now.

Take it slow, take it slow, take it slow... scrape, test scrape test etc. I stick the bow in a vice on its side this early and test each limb so I can see movement & try to get both limbs bending by hand a bit.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 29, 2012, 01:17:00 PM
Ok, I thinned the midlimbs some more and basically ignored the fact that one limb has slightly more set then the other and here is how it looks:
   (http://i.imgur.com/bAEWV.jpg)

Better, maybe thin the right limb some more... Time for short string soon. I don't like how this bow wants to pick up set, I'll stick with the wide and flat design next time.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: SportHunter on March 29, 2012, 01:36:00 PM
I think the set came from having too stiff of limbs which overpowered the wood near the fades which is also where you can pick up set rapidly. The design layout is sound, although with red oak the limbs probably should have been a bit wider to start to minimize set. The left limb is just starting to bend, the right still very stiff. Keep going...
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 29, 2012, 02:30:00 PM
Yep, that right limb was just starting because it is the one with a bit of deflex to it. As I work the bow though it seems that the set is evening out.   (http://i.imgur.com/P0AJV.jpg)
That's at 6" of string travel.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: George Tsoukalas on March 29, 2012, 02:48:00 PM
Get some bending mid limb to to tips. Set happens.  :)  Jawge
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: k-hat on March 29, 2012, 03:00:00 PM
Red oak will take an inch or so of set with even the best tillering.  Unevenness is probly due to differences in the limbs, small as those differences may be.  Sporthunter's diagnosis is right, your set is probly all in the near handle area due to stressing that area so much early on.  And the design is quite narrow, so you're gonna end up with probly 1.5 to 2" of set in the end, even with good tillering.  Red oak ideally needs to be about 1-3/4 to 2" wide to minimize set.  

Hope i don't sound put-offish there!  That said, she'll still make a great shooter and even Howard Hill swore by a little stringfollow/set to make shooting more pleasant   :archer2:  

Keep moving forward and posting progress!
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 29, 2012, 09:50:00 PM
I think it's coming along pretty nicely now, still a little work and I need to lose some weight still but here it is strung and unstrung.   (http://i.imgur.com/MLYiI.jpg)
  (http://i.imgur.com/Sc8p8.jpg)
Btw, the last red oak bow I made had 3/4" of set  :D  This is an experiment though, I am making a bow more suited for hunting then my other bows. This is my first time with the flipped tips and I also don't usually make them this narrow or with as high of a draw weight(I'm going for 55lbs.) Hopefully it'll be a sweet bow    :pray:
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: fujimo on March 30, 2012, 09:42:00 AM
remember she will tell a different story with the short string on her.
i always make my "long string" as short as i can possibly make it!!- right from the beginning.and in fact my progression to the short string in an incremental one- as i keep shortening my long string until it eventually becomes the short string. i dont have a long string, that i remove and then put on a short string.
i have come very close to missing weight when i started like that.
as thge short string gives you a very different bend profile, and then suddenly there are not very many #'s to rectify the profile..
yup, on the fades being stressed, and yup on the very narrow design.
but hats off for being adventurous, having a goal and working towards it. it is really starting to look nice !
enjoy the journey!!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on March 30, 2012, 12:09:00 PM
The bow needs a short 2-3" brace now. It will pull the tips down and in which will change your "flat" mids considerably.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 30, 2012, 12:56:00 PM
It's strung at full brace in the last pic, I just left the stringer on to help show the tiller. Here's more pics taken after a lot more work. I still have plenty of weight to take off so if you see something, let me know please  ;)  It is a little funky because of one limb having a little more set then the other, but I'm tillering it so that the limbs are even at full draw. The limb on the right is the one with the extra set.

  (http://i.imgur.com/A0qq8.jpg)  
  (http://i.imgur.com/rpgcu.jpg)
  (http://i.imgur.com/JuLRO.jpg)
  (http://i.imgur.com/z1HuE.jpg)
  (http://i.imgur.com/Ag9sT.jpg)
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on March 30, 2012, 02:06:00 PM
Perfect so far. Go SLOW and stay about 5# above your target. When you get there shoot it several hundred times. It will lose some more weight then and when you sand it.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: k-hat on March 30, 2012, 02:41:00 PM
Lookin real good there!  Keep it up   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: SportHunter on March 30, 2012, 02:48:00 PM
Looking good Matt.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 30, 2012, 05:21:00 PM
Well, I've been reducing the draw weight, I shaped the tips and narrowed them as well. I'm going to go ahead and shape the handle and cut the arrow notch and start shooting it. The bow is pulling about >55lbs right now. Here's some shots of the tiller. I think it could use a little more off of the bottom(right) limb's tip... What do ya'll think?

  (http://i.imgur.com/uGyS6.jpg)
  (http://i.imgur.com/y4u8H.jpg)

I didn't realize my belt was that loose when I took the picture...  :knothead:
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: Roy from Pa on March 30, 2012, 05:24:00 PM
Dems some purty undies. LMAO:)

OH, the tiller looks nice...
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 30, 2012, 06:39:00 PM
Got my handle roughed out, I took photos but they turned out blurry so I'll try again later.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 30, 2012, 07:16:00 PM
Wow, this thing shoots hard! The 3rd and 4th shots went within a 1/4" of eachother, same with my 6th and 7th.    :banghead:
And finishing, which I really do enjoy.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on March 30, 2012, 07:46:00 PM
Looks good. Shoot the tar out of it before you put hours into finsihing it. Trust me on that one.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 30, 2012, 08:04:00 PM
Pearl Drums, I'll do that. I've never had a bow fail on me after I've gotten it to the point where I feel safe shooting it. First time for everything though  :p
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: Roy from Pa on March 30, 2012, 08:54:00 PM
It looks real nice.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: John Scifres on March 30, 2012, 10:40:00 PM
awesome!
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: SportHunter on March 30, 2012, 10:58:00 PM
Looks like you cut through the back of your bow making the nocks which would weaken the tips. I would avoid  that in the future with some overlays. Nice job on the rest, congrats on another shooter.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: George Tsoukalas on March 30, 2012, 10:58:00 PM
Very nice tiller. Did you cut into the back at the nocks? Jawge
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 31, 2012, 09:32:00 AM
SH and Jawge, yeah I cut through the back for the tips. I usually use a tip overlay but I wanted to get the tips as light as possible for this bow. Also, this board is edge grained so cutting through the back isn't as important as it would be on a self bow. I did leave the tips there pretty thick compared to the rest of the bow.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on March 31, 2012, 06:20:00 PM
Alright, got my sanding done and I sprayed a camo pattern on the drywall tape back. The back needs some sanding and I'm still going to stain the belly wood. For my sanding I smoothed everything with 80 grit followed by 120 then took my scraper and lightly scraped the wood. Then I took a burnishing rod and polished this bow smoother then an androids butt.    :biglaugh:
  (http://i.imgur.com/sswFg.jpg)
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: red hill on March 31, 2012, 10:10:00 PM
Nice bow, Matt. Good job.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: k-hat on April 01, 2012, 03:23:00 PM
Well done, like the camo pattern   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on April 01, 2012, 04:45:00 PM
Thanks for the kind words guys  :)  I got the stain applied, its mostly a Colonial Oak color with a darker ebony on the handle and tips. It didn't come out as nice as my last bow but hey, it's just a hunting bow  :p
  (http://i.imgur.com/SFxfE.jpg)
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on April 03, 2012, 03:51:00 PM
Pearl Drums, you jinxed me.    :banghead:   I've been shooting it for the past few days and just noticed that my handle is starting to delaminate. Oh well, I'm just going to pop it off, clean it up, glue it back down and then redo the stain there. Good thing I don't have the finish on yet.  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 03, 2012, 04:24:00 PM
I didnt jinx you buddy. I was just trying to save you hours of finish work. It will pop off again. Just leave it off and wrap the handle in jute or hemp twine rather. Let it bend.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on April 03, 2012, 04:39:00 PM
I can't leave it off with that arrow cut out. This is the first time I've had a handle pop off and I think it's because my hand was getting sweaty and the humidity is high. TB2 is water *resistant*, it's TB3 thats waterproof. I'm going to try regluing and possibly wrapping the whole thing with fishing line and putting a wrap of some sort over it...
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on April 03, 2012, 05:16:00 PM
It seems that it is delaminating in one small section, I'm going to try to get warmed super glue into the crack and see if that holds up.
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on April 03, 2012, 09:30:00 PM
Well snap... literally, the handle cracked through the shelf, the super glue came apart... Is it possible to make a bendy handle bow with an arrow rest cut into it? If not, I'll have to resign this one to the scrap pile. Possibly I can cut off the old handle, sand it down and then glue a new one on.

Regardless, I need to get more wood and make another  :D
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: Steve Kendrot on April 03, 2012, 09:56:00 PM
See the following website if you havent already for solutions to prevent your handle from popping off. Need to extend your fades into the belly wood.  http://poorfolkbows.com/ipe1.htm
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: OzarkMatt on April 03, 2012, 10:03:00 PM
Steve, I made my first 10 bows based on the red oak tutorial there. This is a narrower high draw weight bow though and apparently it couldn't take the stress. This was a bit of an experiment. so I'm not that upset.

Live and learn!
Title: Re: Tillering Problems - Fixed, now a build-along
Post by: Steve Kendrot on April 03, 2012, 10:39:00 PM
Yep. We learn more from our mistakes than our successes don't we?