I've got an elk hunt planned this fall. I just got a new 2 pound 7 counce bag (my old one was 4 pounds 12 ounces) - $100 for that bag, so its costing me about $50 a pound to drop in backpack weight :eek:
Okay, not THAT bad - but realistically, on a backpack in hunt, I'm wondering if I can take in enough for 6-7 days and get below 40 Pounds total weight ?
Anyone else here bivy or backpack into wilderness areas ? I take no GPS, no bino's ..... I try to trim weight everywhere I can. My tent is an REI nitelite I think its names, about 5 pounds
40 pounds is pretty lite, but if you like oatmeal three times a day for seven days why not. But what if you kill an elk? Your loads out are going to be a whole lot more then 40pounds so going in with a 60 pound pack doesn't seem so heavy.
Smart wool socks, Ex Officio "Give-n-Go" boxers. They both wick away moisture. And the boxers can be washed by hand and dry in less than 2 min. I took a couple of pair on a 2 week trip with my Forestry class to the MN Boundary Waters. you could wash them, swing them around and put them on in no time. Kept alot of bulk out of my pack. The smart wool socks/liners are great. I do alot of trompin through the woods and they keep your feet dry even in heavy boots.
What kinda of meals are you taking? from our trips we have come up with alot of lil things to save bulk and weight.
Light weight sleeping bags weigh only a couple of ounces which are OK. Light weight tents are good too. Heck a tarp could be substituted for a tent.
Flash lights can be heavy, take a cheap LED clip on (the type w/ 3 lights) to put on your hat. A heavy duty Trash bag (lawn bags) make good rain gear and are only a few ounces compared to a pound or more for a poncho.
Ill see if i can go through my records and come up with some more of the things my bro and i did to save bulk and weight on our trips. Being gone for 2 weeks at a time and having to hike w/ full gear with the rest of the class several miles every day we wanted as light as possible but as comfortable as possible.
small stuff like cutting the handel of your tooth brush in half, taking a spork instead of silverware. all this seems silly but it makes a differance.
Brad -- Just my day hunting pack (an old Dwight Schuh which empty weighs 5 pounds), with everything I need to care for meat, runs 30-35 pounds. That's the rub with backpack hunting -- on top everything you need to camp safely, you have all your hunting and meat-care stuff. I did an opening weekend backpack solo hunt last year and my load weighed precisely 50lbs., with the daypack tied on top the backpack/meat frame. I carried cheap freeze-dried food from Walmart (as good as more expensive brands in fact), a water filter bottle which is lighter and handier than a pump filter, a small pot to boil water for coffee and food and a plastic insulated cup for eating and drinking. You can get a couple more pounds off your tent, if you want to spend more $$$. My heavy items are the two big heavy cotton elk game bags I always carry, which will hold an entire elk quartered and thick enough to hang, drag, and keep bugs and dirt off meat, my hunting pack, knives etc. And a pint of George Dickel in a plastic flask ... gotta have SOME nocturnal comforts! I'd planned to stay 4 or 5 days but some jerk on an ATV came roaring through and shut the elk up and put 'em on high alert--this is a no-ATV area but those clowns don't care. I really don't see how one guy can get much below 50lbs for several days without risking safety -- you have to have warm clothes and raingear, just in case. Find a friend to come along and split the tent and other items between you and you can probably knock another 10lbs off. But I know of no better way to slip quietly into really prime elk country than packing in alone ... just take your time and hike in uphill so you can pack the meat out downhill! dave
It has been awhile since I have done any backpacking but here is a list I put together a few years back. Keep in mind that this list was put together for pleasure backpacking and not for hunting.
Do an internet search for ultra light backpacking and you will probably get some hits.
The numbers are in ounces and at the bottom I show the total weights in pounds.
Top Pack
Lighter 1
B-day Candles 0.5 was 1
Extra Batteries 1
Knife 2
Toilet Paper 1
Zip-lock Bag Total 5.5
Middle Pack
Tent (1 Person) 43
Sleeping Bag 23
Sleep System 66
Stuff Sack 4
Pant Legs 3
Heavy Socks 4
Light Socks 1.5
Long John Bottoms 7.5
Long John Shirt 9
Sweater 21
Gloves 1.3
Stocking Cap 1.9
Clothing Bag Total 53.15
Kitchen Bag 2
Small Pan
Pot Grip
Stove
Fuel Pump
Lighter
Kitchen Bag Total 26
Bath Bag
Toothpaste
Toothbrush
Soap Powder Soap
Wash Cloth (Red)
Wash Cloth (Blue)
Bath Bag Total 4
Food Bag 3
Bottom Pack
Tarp 9
Rope 3
Rain Jacket 18
Rain Pants 10
Gaiter 10
Pack Cover 3
Bottom Total 53
Side Pockets
(2) Water Bottles 1.2
(2) Liters of Water 64
11 oz. Fuel Bottle 2.7
11 oz. of Fuel 7
Plastic Cup 2
Sleeping Pad 14
Headlamp 2.5 Pezel LED
Camera 10
Water Filter 8 Katadyn Mini
Frist Aid Bag 6
Side Pockets Total 120.4
Backpack 32 Golite
Total W/O Food 363.05 Weight in lbs. 22.69063
Total W/O Water 299.05 Weight in lbs. 18.69063
Food for 5 day trip 168
Total W/ Food& H2O 531.05 Weight in lbs. 33.19063
Food for 3 day trip 120
Total W/ Food& H2O 483.05 Weight in lbs. 30.19063
What 2.5 pound pack are you using for a 40# load and I assume to haul meat? (I'm not being a smart***, I'm really curious). :)
Varying weather is my problem. Cold one day, hot the next, monsoon the next. :(
"I took a couple of pair on a 2 week trip with my Forestry class to the MN Boundary Waters".
posted by pintail_drake2004
Pintail,
A summer trip to the boundry waters in no way are you carrying the gear you need to be safe at 10,000 feet in Sept in the mountains . Conditions can vary greatly you need to be prepared for sub freezing temps to 70 degree + day time temps. Mother Nature is not very forgiving.
Here's a neat resource: Ultralight Backpacking (http://www.backpacking.net/index.html)
A neat book is "Ultralight Backpacker" from Ryel Kestenbaum.
You can defenitely get under 40 pounds. I'm going for a base pack of under 20 for my Idaho trip this fall.
You can do it. Just work on it from now until then. Make sure and practice with what you plan on using.
The big 3 are shelter, pack, and bag. Get rid of as much stuff as you can. Rely on yourself...not your stuff.
Your shelter is too heavy fisrt off. I have an REI Sololite that is less than 3.
QuoteOriginally posted by Lost Arra:
What 2.5 pound pack are you using for a 40# load and I assume to haul meat? (I'm not being a smart***, I'm really curious). :)
Varying weather is my problem. Cold one day, hot the next, monsoon the next. :(
http://www.golite.com/product/product2.aspx?sc=112&s=1
It was not a summer trip to the boundary waters, rather a fall trip. and quite cold, rained/snowed like hell and hiked in mud a foot deep up hill until the last day. I did my research on the area, got average temps and decided to go the extra weight for the comfort and take my down sleeping bag. I had it easy though, my brother was on the trip w/ me so we split alot of the gear. Since i knew what the average weather was like, i packed for it. I knew my feet would get wet, so i opted for the smart wool socks because if your feet get injured in the wilderness you could be in a world of hurt.
The weather was more of a concern than the black bears who were suprising the people on the "logan short drops"
I know the weather can change in a instant espically when you are up in the mountains, or wilderness. We had to chopper 2 people out because they did not give too much concern to what we were suppose to be doing (weather and envronment wise) and they got hurt. I would bet that what i had in my pack could keep me safe in the mountains in september for a week or longer. Because i come prepared. I was only giving some recommendations on lightweight options for a trip, not necessarily the exact gear i would carry.
I learned a long time ago backpacking into wilderness areas - ounces make pounds.
I have a pack for 10 days solo, including spotting scope and tripod that is 52lbs for Dall sheep in Alaska
For 5 or 6 days I'm sure you could easily get close to 40lbs. Two places I plan on dropping a couple pounds off that total is my tent and bag. The tent isnt bad at 3lbs, the bag is heavy at 4lbs.
Alot of my choices depends on when I'm going, where I'm going, solo or not, and how long.
If i was to hunt WY in sept for elk again I know I could hit 40lbs for 6 or 7 days.
But you are definatly right, it WILL cost you!
The other question is, what do you NEED, and what can you live WITHOUT for a week.
well what will help is a buddy of mine is going with me. I'll carry 1/2 the camp weight - like the tent and he'll carry the equivalent in weight like the cook stove/tarp and so on.
I wear .... uh, panties is what my wife calls them :) ... they're dinky silk-like undies. I've done quite a bit of elk hunting, we'll be about 5-6 miles from the trailhead, not a terribly long way in.
we'll be using freeze dried meals, using a jet-boil to reheat.
I've got my Schuh pack, it fits me. I can't carry a lot of weight with it, but 2 of us packing meat makes it twice as fast for sure. I'm pretty good at deboning at this point in the game :)
Gatekeeper - good list. I can't take much off that to be honest. But having Joey with me will help 1/2 the neccessary stuff. I can't wait until summer to start packing/trimming etc.
I'm looking at maybe an expensive pair of lightwear footwear too. I like my Russells ... but they're heavy !
Brad 40 lbs is a good goal, I have had trouble staying under 50 for a week, I have a hard time leaving binocs at home, If ya go with a buddy you sure need to look at sharing items, like said above every ounce counts, but dont scrimp on the essentials..
Brad -- They not great backpacking boots, since they have nearly no ankle support, but my favorite huntings boots are LL Bean Hunting Shoes. Unlined, they are scentproof, waterproof, very quiet, and if it gets cold just wear anothe rpair of socks. I wore them on the pack trip I described last year, no trubba, and since I always hunt elk in them I'm always wearing them to pack elk. Nothing I know of but mocs are lighter.
anybody camp in the mountains with just a tarp for a tent ? What are your thoughts ? good / bad ?
ChuckC
Chuck,
I was really considering the kifaru bivy tent which is basically a tarp for a solo shelter. Friends of mine have done it, I'd atleast like to have something big enough to close 3 ends. Problem is by the time you get a tarp big enough to do this you can buy a bivy and be "comfortable" if you will. For nostalgias sake you could look up tarp bivy sites as there are quite a few out there.
Kifaru paratarp (11oz). Great tarp shelter.
The open end does seem to grow when it rains hard but they sell a separate 6oz "annex" which is a door that closes it off.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/LostArrow/Paratarp03.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v628/LostArrow/Paratarp01.jpg)
I can get down to 30# for 3-4 days. That said I have the minimum gear. Tarp, hammock, pack and bag come in at 12#s. Like some above I use down, wool, dried food but I take little water when I can usually access to water once I up on the mountain. One change of socks and one upper garment only.
I do carry a light 3 oz stove and fuel though. I have found that after a couple of trips I start out carrying less and less. Just inventory your pack after to see what you really don't need. Safety items are always there.
I have spent cold, wet, windy days out at a time.
On line backpacking sites have tons of ultra light tips and lists. Good luck Bill
"hammock"
I've wondered if a light weight hammock and a kiffaru type tarp over it wouldn't be the absolute best way ? but then if the temps drop below freezing I imagine a guy could get pretty cold ?
mobiltoy seems the lighter I want to go, the more expensive it is :)
if I could find a good overhang I'd just camp under it, but not sure there's one in the new area I'm going into
Hammock Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjKiKES5Ja8&feature=related)
There are all kinds of cool videos on youtube about ultralight camping.
Here is my Idaho Elk Camp. That is my tent and my buddy's tarp. He has used it all over and loves it. I will be using a tarp this year. This was at about 9500 feet on the top of a mountain in central Idaho, 2006. It was wicked cold out but we both slept well in our respective shelters.
(http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/06elkhunt70.jpg)
Here's my tent with tarp vestibule.
(http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/06elkhunt49.jpg)
A closer view of my friends tarp with poncho door.
(http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/06elkhunt50.jpg)
The view from inside after a wet snow dropped about 6" during the night. Silnylon will bend but it won't break.
(http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/06elkhunt48.jpg)
I would highly suggest some sort of hammock. I use a military jungle hammock(2lb 6oz)if memory serves. Hammocks keep you off the ground and away from rocks. I have been told that when using one, that your sleeping bag rating changes a little. IE last time i was out it was around 29-34deg, but my bag is only rated at 45. I did cheat and bring some fleace. My total wieght on the pack was 18lbs. Food(oatmeal and hot chocolate), water(2.4qts), stove(Snow peak),Pan(snow peak) sleep system(hammock & a marmot summer bag, gregory pack and finally some clean undies. We only went for 3 days and we were not hunting, but what a great expierience good luck Jason Fedora
I am trying to get up the gumption to go the tarp / lean-to route this year...at least for part of the hunt. I have never done this before and appreciate the info. Kifaro stuff looks great, but really, I find it difficult to justify the expense (for me....others don't seem to have that problem). John...thanks for the pix.
We all have our goblins in the night. Mine is bears. I am not (so far) afraid of bears in the light of day, and have had a couple pretty close encounters... but come dark... maybe not fear, but a real uncomfortable feeling sets in with the prospect of something out there "messing with my stuff" or God forbid...me or my hunting partner...and I can't see to protect it / us.
That open end, or open side is a hurdle to overcome. Silly cause I had a recent experience of a small mammal, we believe a squirrel, got between the rainfly and tent of my...pretty pricey nylon tent, and it basically removed one whole wall. Once it started to go, it went... big time. That said, having a wall like that provides no "protection" from a bear at all, but there is something there to keep the boogeyman out. Guess I need to practice is all.
ChuckC
I have a few questions and please excuse my ignorance; I have never been on a 10 day mountain hunt. Do you bring an Ax/saw to cut fire wood and such? Are you allowed to start a fire in these areas? Some of the items people omit, like binoculars and such I think I would want or need? If you trained with a pack of equal weight/size and felt comfortable with it is an extra pound or two matters? Just asking?
No ax or saw for me. If fires are allowed, and that really depends on a lot of things, then you can gather wood easily enough. You don't want or need a big fire on a bivy style hunt. Mostly, I don't use a fire.
I take my binoculars. But your question...
QuoteIf you trained with a pack of equal weight/size and felt comfortable with it is an extra pound or two matters?
...can easily be asked in reverse. In other words, do you really need that extra pound or two? We take too much stuff in the woods with us. There is nothing wrong with being a gear head. But it does weigh on you on the trail. Keep it simple.
Yeah man you need to drop that heavy tent and go with a bivy from REI. You could lose 3 pounds easy right there.
* KIFARU for the tent over all the REI stuff, especially with the stove which adds heat and comfort. Their customer service is top notch ,too. You don`t have to carry extra fuel either. If you have the good stuff, you will never go back. I usually spend the whole elk season in camp and did it the hard way (1/2 of an austrian Army tent one year and luckily the weather was clear all the time). You will be fine for a couple of days, but then your body will feel tired without an external heat source.
* Since the weather is unpredictable in the mountains use clothing out of fibers which still keep you warm when wet.The stove will dry them quite fast either. More thinner layers are better than a few thicker ones.
*Elk hunting without binoculars is not very vise and will lessen your chance to spot them before they´ll spot or smell you.
* I use one of the new lock-blade swiss army knives and it has a saw as well(Rucksack model). For the small stove that is plenty. Saw is great for firewood and for splitting the pelvis bone while field-dressing.
* Dried foods with a high fat content for food
(pemmican) about 4000 kcal/day or a little less if you want to loose some pounds :-)
just my 5 cents...
I hunt wilderness areas here in Colorado, I would NOT skimp on a GPS or binos. I would however, lighten your shelter by about half, 5 pounds is really heavy for shelter for one.
With my heavy Eberlsestock pack, packed for 8 days, was 42-43 lbs. This coming up year, I am going to lighten my pack up by getting rid of the Eberlestock and getting a technical pack from REI or the like.
Your overall sleeping system should be no more than 6-6.5lbs.(including bag, pad, and shelter), bring lightweight food (mountain house, etc). Dont need to have multiple sets of clothes (I carry one base layer, one layer of Microtec, and a lightweight goretex outer-layer. The only thing I bring multiples of are socks and underwear). Use the Lithium AA's for your GPS, and only fire it up to mark wallows or rubs, and to find the tent in the dark.
This doesnt cover everything, I know, but I think the your biggest weight items are your backpack, sleeping/shelter system, and clothing, so thats where you concentrate on reducing some weight.
Here are some pics of my hunt last year. (If you hunt somewhere with a 2000ft elevation gain on your hike in, 5-6 miles will feel much further than you think!)
(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/Titan_Bow/DSC01741-1.jpg) (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/Titan_Bow/DSC01748.jpg) (http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d92/Titan_Bow/DSC01235.jpg)
I say no on the hammock - save the weight for something else. Being cold and not on the ground means you will be colder..... ground insulates.
Lots of menu options - check the equipment stores for the "do-it-yourself" books. Store food isnt tasty.... non-camping prepared foods are excellent and cost less too.
Think multi-use items.
for my clothese, it layers, layers, layers. If it is cold, everything is on, warm, and it is packed. Not multiple outfits for different conditions.
Though I haven't combined it with hunting, I've done early spring in the Boundary Waters, and October/November, January/February in Algonquin.
40# should work for you.
Have a good time, and also do a thread afterwards to continue the discussion.
You will freeze your butt off in elk country in a hammock. Near treeline, the air is thin with low humidity, and it doesnt hold heat like the air does back east. As soon as the sun goes down the temps start dropping fast. If you are in a hammock, you will need more sleeping bag than you would if you had a thermarest on the ground. A good 20 deg bag will do fine, but in a hammock, in a 20 deg bag, you are likely to freeze to death :-)
Titan-Bow - good to know that, thanks !
I don't take bino's or a GPS. I figure those to be luxury items I don't need.
we'll build fires at night I imagine, if nothing else to smell like smoke and use it like a cover scent.
I swear I don't know how ya'll keep your sleeping bags dry under just a little tarp like those !
Brad,
In my opinion, the GPS is not a luxury item in the mountains, especially if you are going solo. I can take my mind off land nav a little and hunt, and at dark find my tent easily. Also, this is big, big country, and looking across a drainage at the far hillside can easily be hal a mile or more. Alot of times you will be lucky to spot a deer or elk like that with the naked eye. I would say during the coarse of a hunting day, I use my binos and GPS more than probably anything else besides my feet :-)
Brad:
Lots of good advice offered so far. To mirror John Scifres suggestion- start with a good book on the subject. Similarly, get yourself to a specialty backpacking outfitter and talk to experienced backpackers. More than likely, you won't find them at Walmart.
40 pounds is definitely doable. I've hiked longer with as little. Much of "going lite" has to do with structuring your pack based on the principle redundancy without duplication - meaning, each item you carry should be able to serve as a backup for something else. For instance, a rain jacket is not just a rain jacket, but it's a bucket, a vestibule, a ground cloth and a day pack (roll it around other gear, bungee it closed and tie it around your waste). Likewise, a bivy rain fly can also be used to carry/collect water, to keep your pack dry during a wet hike, or as a backup rain poncho.
Remember too, that your pack will quickly become lighter with each passing meal. To save weight to allow for some other "luxuries" on your trip, often you can get by with just a single quick "meal" on day one (romain noodles, "bullion soup" and tang for desert- mmmmm good!). Also, if your level of fitness will allow you to endure a heavier pack for the first day or two - when you're at your strongest - you can often take more than you originally thought was possible because by day three you'll be carrying significantly less food weight.
Part of the "fun" of backpacking is trying to get by with as little as possible- within the realm of staying safe.
Titan-Bow I know, I just never used them and don't see a need to start now. My buddy thats going with me will have his GPS for certain.
Labs4me I guess this spring what I need to do is get my stuff down, lay it out, pack it tight and weigh it, then start trimming stuff from there.
We're not so much bivy hunting as lightweight camp hunting. That we're walking in a few miles makes the lighter packs more desireable and if we need to move after a couple of days thats an option to.
I know where we're going wont' be more than 4-5 hours of hiking - thats a full day (in/out) if when we get an elk down.
Two of us sharing the weight of the camp will help too.
>>>Labs4me I guess this spring what I need to do is get my stuff down, lay it out, pack it tight and weigh it, then start trimming stuff from there.<<<
Please don't take this as being argumentive but why weigh it? Why not get your stuff laid out, pack it tight and go for a hike. If it's too heavy start trimming. If it feels good, go with it. Who cares if it weighs 35# or 45#? Proper weight distribution and a good pack can make a heavier load feel fine, especially with some training.
Labs makes some great points. The heaviest load is the first one.
Good info by the founder of Kifaru:
http://www.kifaru.net/possibls.htm
Lost Arra - I dunno, seems like less than 40# is a goal. I'd rather it be 20 pounds but that won't happen ;)
I'll be hiking all summer, adding that condition to my cardio work outs. I'll want me pack the way it will eb when I leave the trailhead -
I think I'm gonna work backwards this year. I'm going to start with a tarp, 20 degree bag, and a 2500 cu. in. pack. Add a couple meals and hike 3 miles in for a weekend. See if I need anything I don't have and then add it for the next trip. How dead can I get in a weekend 3 miles from the car?
I recommend a horse and a mule. One to ride and one to pack. Faster, more comfortable, and as someone said, hauling out even one elk will make even the toughest group of dudes into a pile of jello. An outfitter can pack you in and out, and you will have more energy to stay after em'.
Mike
I agree with the comments on distribution.
I exercise with a very small daypack that I reinforced to handle weight. I put 60 lbs of lead shot in it. I walk several miles a day and use it on my treadmill.
It really shows me the magic of center-of-gravity. That 60 lbs is snug to my back, making it seem as easy as 45 lbs in my hunting pack.
So on my last trip I hooked a front pack on my shoulder straps and I put the dense stuff in it - stove, fuel, heaviest food, knife, gps, etc. Doesn't save weight but just moving the C-o-G forward makes a huge difference. Plus you have easy access to day stuff.
Also move the heavy stuff as close to your back as you can. Even though the weight is still on your thighs and ankles, step after step you are using fewer balance muscles and it makes a big difference.
I can't go without binos and some reading material.
All that being said, I still am shopping for a lite pack. My old one is 6.5 lbs.
Good thread!
take an emergency space blanket. I use mine as a sleeping mat. It keeps the moisture away from me while I sleep, then the silver side radiates my body heat back to me. Keeps you way warmer, you'd be amazed how much heat radiates off your bag while you're in it.
You can also signal with one if you need to, use it as a poncho, rain flap, or tarp for all kinds of uses.
All right, all right, all right.
I'll comment because I have spent more time in elk country than most, although most of the time was purely spent in the country for the sake of being in the country, elk are always a bonus.
Lightweight. Good. Double or triple usage= real good. EVERY trip I take I pile my gear at the end and remove the stuff I didn't use. BUT you can't skimp on some things. Elk country is HUGE. You can get into trouble quickly if you do skimp.
That said, here are MY rules and the gear I WON'T skimp on.
Stay warm. NO cotton. Synthetics or wool. Period.
Have multiple types of ways to start a fire. I like ferro rods. Lighters over matches.
Don't skimp on food. On my elk hunts I can eat like a pig and still loose weight.
DRINK lots of water. Make sure it is ALL treated. Nothing like getting beaver feever in the middle of your hunt. Now THATS a treat. I use "Potable Aqua" pills. Light weight, and no real taste disadvantage to me. I do also drink some "Nuun" electrolite drinks during the day as well. Really cuts down on cramps and sore muscles. I got mine at REI.
Weight issues... if I don't use it or it can't supply me with warmth or shelter, it doesn't go. I don't bring much in the way of clothes. Water is the heaviest thing you will carry, it makes food heavy, and if you're lucky, it makes meat heavy. As much as I like camel backs, I carry one nalgine bottle and one platypus flexy canteen. By carrying less it forces you to stop and drink.
Food... try to google some backpacking recipies. There are tons. Good ol' GORP is my snack during the day. I don't really do lunch. I also eat a lot of jolly ranchers.
Remember, less is more.
In my opinion, 45-50# is about right for a weekish- long backcountry elk hunt. Less is possible, but you are going to comprimise something... durability, emergency situations, etc.
Good luck, PM me if you want my gear list, it's fairly extensive.
Also, a good website is www.nesmucking.com (http://www.nesmucking.com)
Mike
With a 15 degree bag and a thermarest pad in the bag I have slept well in sept at 11000 feet during storms in the hammock. It all depends on your tarp pitch as to the air flow under you. You just have to try it at home to get the feel for it. There is nothing better than being able to sit up and swing off the ground to rest or cook your food. I must be getting old to lay on the ground. I have used both in the mountains and will stay with the hammock. If need be you can always go to the ground under the tarp.
Well said about the tarp. Just about the most comfortable way to sleep. You HAVE to have insulation under you when in a tarp.
Mike