Any tips for a black locust stave?
Frank Bullit dropped me of a nice one yesterday more of a blank I guess than a stave. Cut in 1993, it's ready!
It's got a slight twist to it, does locust take dry heat well?
I'll try to get some pictures up later today.
Thanks again Steve I'm looking forward to starting this one!
i have tried to work with black locust. it has lots of knots and for me it was hard to work with. on the other hand, i have seen in web, it is said that it is the best limb wood.
look at the values:
id|tree|elasticity
32|Honeylocust|1.63
33|Locust Black|2.05
elasticity value is over 2. perfect.
good luck anyway.
Zero nots on this one! It's a great looking blank. I am just trying to gather information before I start on it, especially on the slight twist. Trying to decide if I can use dry heat or if i will need to steam it.
I'm pretty inexperienced with making bows and have only worked boards and osage staves so this is very new to me.
Dennis,
Dry heat for dry wood and wet heat for wet wood.
Locust has to tillered spot on or it will fret.
"Dry heat for dry wood and wet heat for wet wood."
Is "dry wood" wood that has been properly seasoned as opposed to "wet wood" which still has too much moisture content; or are different species of trees either dry or wet and which is which.
Can I safely boil a seasoned Osage stave or should I use dry heat?
Dry wood is well seasoned wood, no matter the species. Wet wood is freshly cut wood with the tree moisture still in it of dry wood that has taken on moisture from the atmosphere.
First off, don't worry about the twist. With selfbows it won't hurt anything and you can remove it when you heat treat the belly if you want to. Locust benefits well from heat treating.
For your first bow make it 68" long(for a 28" draw), 1 3/4" to 2" wide at the fades and out to at least mid limb before tapering to 1/2" tips(for now). Locust is susceptable to fretting like Stiks said so limbs that bend smoothly and evenly are critical. The heat treating will help increase the compression strength a little.
This is a locust Eastern Woodland Style Bow I built for the PA bow trade. I used light green and yellow dye on the back but note how dark the heat treated belly is...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/PATradeBow2011003-1.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/PATradeBow2011002.jpg)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/PATradeBow2011003.jpg)
..and I went with single side nocks, a traditional nock style...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/PATradeBow2011001.jpg)
Very nice Pat!
This blank is 66" but I noticed a small crack on one end that appears to go all the way through to the back. I am going to have to cut off just under an inch from both ends. So I will have about 64" in legnth. It's down to one growth ring, limbs are 1 3/4 tapering to 1 1/4 at mid limb, then tapering to half inch on the tips.
Limbs are at 7/16 thick as well, and it has just a bit of reflex.
The twist is slight, but I am confident if I can use dry heat (which appears I can) I can get it out. I have had great luck untwisting osage here lately and gained alot of experience on the last two bows I made. I have only made 2 from staves but several from board bows. So while it's not my first bow, I am still pretty wet behind the ears!
Here's a few picturs of this black locust blank.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/blacklocust001.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/blacklocust004.jpg)
I'm really likeing the grain! My camera flash brightened it alot in the picture though!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/blacklocust003.jpg)
The twist
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/blacklocust006.jpg)
I'm shooting for a 45# at my 27" draw out of this one, anyone see any issues with that weight right off?
Will you post pics of the crack? Is it running parallel with the bow or across the bow?
That looks like a nice stave. Locust works similar to osage but is less forgiving. At 7/16" thick I'd go ahead and cut temporary nocks in the tips and put a long string just to see if or how it is bending.
Here you go, I had to hold it at a pretty good angle to be able to get a picture of it.
It runs parrelal with the bow about 3/4 of an inch, I can see it on the end and both sides so i am sure it goes all the way through. Probably just from drying. The wood was cut in 93 and it was brought to the current shape in 1996.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/blacklocust2001.jpg)
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/blacklocust2003.jpg)
As far as bending it is still very stiff when i flex it on the floor. I was suprised at how stiff it is to be as thin as it is. no way near ready for a long string yet!
Leave it there and thin the tips and put an overlay on if you are still worried. That should take care of it. Or cut it off, but imo the extra length would help you.
Twist... what twist.
Twist may be the wrong word I guess, one limb bends off line compared to the other and also twists just a bit like a propeller. I am going to go out to the shop and put some heat to it and straighten it out good so that I know my string allignment will be dead center through the handle.
Hey Dennis! When I showed this stave/blank, to Gary about 5 years ago, he suggested using some oil, and the heat gun. Along with a form or caul!
Please, don't cut the tips short. If any fill with super glue, and use!
I agree with Pat on longer is better, but did't have anymore wood to work with on this stave!
I love Locust! The bow I have that Gary built in 1991, is from billets he got from Al Herrin.
Can ya say Mojo :D
You will do good with this one, I'm sure!
Enjoyed visiting with ya yesterday , too!
Steve, yesterday was a great time hanging out with you! Fell free to drop by anytime.
I just got it clamped down and did use oil (Veggie) along with my heat gun. It looks good at this point but won't know how well it holds it until tomorrow.
I will get that crack super glued up tomorrow as well. I just wanted some reassurance it wouldn't be fatal leaving it in. And that seems to be what everyones saying.
I will get some pitures up tomorrow when I unclamp it. I may end up building a caul with some curve to it for this one before long.
Saturate that check with thin super glue and clamp it shut. With an overlay you will never know it's there.
You won't really know how the string will track until you brace the bow. Thats why I suggested you cut in the temporary string grooves and see how she bends on the tiller tree. After that you can deside which way to proceed.
Adeeden I had the same issues with this osage stave but a little worse it was my first successful bow. thanks to patb and many others. It is not finished and I want finish it here. Just to dry. But I had some of the same nagging issues and did not use a lot of heat to get out the bends just the deflex in one limb. take a look and see if my issues look like yours.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=004885;p=1#000000
Pulled the clamps off today. The propellar is gone! However It doesn't look like I pulled the bend out quite far enough. My string indicator is still showing I am off center by about 3/8" or so from center.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/black3002.jpg)
I corrected the string to true center of the limb tips between these two pictures as it was off on one limb when I took the first picture.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/black3003.jpg)
I got back to work tonight for the next 3 possibly 4 days. Thats 15 hours from the time I leave home until I return each day. But I am planning on reheating it and clamping it again possibly tomorrow between work and sleep and will get the crack glued and clamped as well.
I'll get more pictures once thats done.
Looks like you're on the right track. I'm workin on a black locust bow myself right now too. Mine has quite a bit more character to it than yours though. I'm anxious to see how yours turns out. Good Luck.
:)
You really can't tell how the string will track until you brace the bow. Start reducing the limbs and get them bending good. Once you hit about 8" to 10" of tip movement, low brace the bow at about 3". Then you will see exactly how the string tracks under tension.
Pat I agree with you on how it will track, but I figure if i get it going straight through the handle from the get-go It wil be easier to correct after it's braced. Thats whats worked for me in the past anyway.
Pat B, on your bow did you remove the sapwood?
James, Yes! I'm sure with the right piece of locust you could leave a ring or 2 of sapwood but I didn't on this bow.
Ok, I super glued and clamped the crack and I got it scraped down and bending pretty well on the floor.
I heated it twice the last few days between shifts at work, but am still not completley satisfied with the straightness. It is much better but still not quite there yet. I am going to give it another heat clamp ritual tonight. This locust seems much more difficult to straighten then osage. This may be from the age of the stave though, propbably drier than anything I have tried before.
I will get some pictures up tomorrow. Hopefully tomorrow I can also file in some nocks and get it braced low around 3 inches or so and then go from there.
Ok I got her to low brace today of about 3 3/4 inches.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/lowbrace001.jpg)
Here's the string alignment after 4 sessions of heating and clamping. It's much better then when I first started but still about 1/8 off from true center of the handle. So I plan on making the top limb specific to favor it being to one side. It will put the arrow closer to the string that way. That probably makes no sense but you all know what I mean!
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/lowbrace003.jpg)
Anyone see any issues right off? I am going to scrape the top limb just a bit as it appears just a tad stiffer then increase the brace height a bit. I will post more pictures when I get to that point.
And ignore that fancy string..........poor people have poor ways!
Got her to a brace of 7 1/4 inches measureing from the back of the bow.
The right limb is what I am hoping for the top limb. It still looks a bit stiffer than the left to me what do you think?
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/brace001.jpg)
Looking real good there...
Its hard to tell just looking at it at brace height. They look about dead even to me. Maybe try taking a pic of it on the tiller tree.
Okie, I am trying to not use a tree on this one. Just gonna use a pully system with a scale like Gary Davis does. My last two came out pretty heavy as I just used a tree and no scale 62 and 64 pounds to be exact!
I will get a picture of it on the pully here before long as I have not bent it other than floor tillering and braceing yet.
Do you guys think it looks close enough now to start bending a bit on the pully?
Let it set braced like you have it now for 30-40 minutes to let some initial weight drop. After that, start drawing by hand a few inches at a time. Recheck tiller measurements after each drawing session. It's OK to check and see how the limb's bending on the tree from time to time, but once you have an even tiller, it's pretty much just getting the weight where you want it. Good luck.....Art
Hey Dennis, looking good!
My only ? is, the 71/4", is that from back of handle? I recommend a brace height of about 6.5" or around, lower myself, for selfbows.
Looking foward to the Shooter!
Steve, Yes from the back of the handle. I didn't measure from the belly side of the handle but would guess it's just shy of 6" there.
I may start bending it a bit this evening, right now I got some boys who have talked me into raiding another tradgangers swimming pool for a few hours.
Dennis, I'm still a novice but I think you're right about the right limb looking a little stronger.
Pat B, I've read several suggestions of using "thinned super glue" to fill a crack. What do you thin the super glue with?
I scraped the right limb some more then strung it up and let it set for awhile.
Strung it up and started bening it a little on my pully/scale. Right limb which is going to be the top is still stiff on the inside third for sure and maybe a bit on the outer third as well.
Please speak up and let me know if thats correct!
The lighting in my garage is terrible for pictures after sundown but hopefully this will give you an idea of where i am at.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/tillering1005.jpg)
It's right at 50# at 19 inches in the picture according to my scale.
I think you're right on where to scrape.
Red, super glue comes in two forms that I know of...thin and gel. I use the thin to go into checks, cracks, knots and voids. You can heat the wood a little and that will allow the glue to penetrate better.
If it were mine I'd use the right limb for the bottom limb. I never shape the handle until I have tillered out the bow so I can choose which limb will be which by the way the wood bends. Alsao I make all of my bows symmetrical these days for this reason and I can see proper tiller better with a symmetrical bow design.
adeeden, I've been following but just came back from Denton. I could not see with and length of the stave. It does look like you need to get more near handle wood moving. For the record, I've never bought into leaving layers of sapwood on osage and BL because it looks good. I've left layers of sapwood only when I didn't have enough heartwood for a bow. It has been a few years since i made a BL bow. I need to get bak to my roots and I have some staves getting ready. Jawge
What draw length are yo heading too. I apologize if I missed it. :) Jawge
Jawge, I believe he said he was going for 45# at 27" draw.
Jawge, who said anything about sapwood? :readit: :bigsmyl:
Thinking out loud again? :D
Your on track, Dennis. 50lb at 19" gives you plenty to work on good tiller and reach your desired weight!
Look at the string angle in the pic. This also tells alot of what's going on!
I don't know, Frank. The man asked for tips so I gave him some. Gotta problem with that? :) Jawge
I have a 27" draw George, and originaly said I was going for 45# but decided to try for 50. It has not been bent past 50#.
I go back to work tonight but will get a better picture up while there is still good light.
Steve, Someone asked Pat early on if he left any sapwood on the awesome bow he posted pictures of. There's no sapwood on this one as you know.
Ok got a better picture. I had scraped the inner third on the right limb a bit last night.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/tillering2002.jpg)
50# at 20 inches.
Still looks stiff near the fades on both sides to me with the right stiffer near the fade as well.
I agree!
Well, I will work on it some more after this next shift.
Looks Like I will take Pats advice and make the left limb the top limb. I have not done anything to the handle area so thats not a problem.
I will also scrape the heck out of the inner areas near the fades with a little extra on the right limb.
Any other advice?
Yeah, George, this is my Baby! :laughing:
...and a fine baby it is, Frank. adeeden, is doing you proud. Jawge
Proud? well will see about that, theres many a slip betwenn a cup and a lip!
Anyway I scraped quite a bit near the fades when I got up today (lonnnng night at work). Keeping track of my scrapes and working the right limb way more than the left and this is where I ended up. were at almost 22 inches now.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/tillering8-5004.jpg)
It's looking pretty close to me what do you think? Work the fades more or take even wood off and just drop the weight?
When it's setting at brace the right limb is showing about 1/16 more depth in deepest area than the left. Measureing from string to belly.
Left limb looks great. Right limb looks to need more scraping in the near handle area. It looks stronger than the left anyway. If it were my bow that is what I would do. I'd leave the bow strung. I'd take a few scrapes ...like 10 or so...give the stave 20-30 pulls at low draw, 12 in or less, for the change to register then check tiller. Time to slow down. It really is easy to develop a hinge in that area. I always check tiller by turning the stave around to make sure what I am seeing is not an optical illusion. Check the tiller from both sides and then decide. I also mark a heavy pencil line right at the end of the fades where I want the bending to start and work that area as described above to make sure the stave is starting to bend there where I want it to start. I always stop 1 inch lower than my draw and work it in that extra inch by shooting it in. The way it looks at brace is not as important to me as how it looks at full draw. There are buildalongs on my site. You could make the right limb the bottom limb but get the bending starting at the end of the fades in both limbs. One more thing ...I leave my bottom limb about 1/4 inch stiffer BUT at full draw as checked by digi tillering. I have my wife take a pic or 2 or 3. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
George thanks!
I am getting ready to take my youngest to his hunter education class for a few hours. When we get back I will give the right limb 10 scrapes by the fade and see what happens.
Dennis, looking good. What's she look like unbraced? Take much set?
I agree with George, turn the opposite way and have a look. Your bearing block, is flat, square, unlike your hand. Draw it, in front of a mirror, and take a pic.
Might be suprised to see "tiller", now!
Where is your buddy John at? He has a good tillering eye!
Your a great "Baby Sitter", too! :D
Steve, It's got about 1 1/4 inch set. I have been excersising the heck out of it after every wood removal. A little more than I expected but not bad for a part timer!
I did try to take a hand drawn picture earlier today before I started working on it but had to fire my camera man even if he is only 10!
Here is that picture but I have scraped it a good bit near the fades and have it bending a little better now. This is with the right limb up.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/tillering8-5002.jpg)
and this is with the left limb up.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/tillering8-5003.jpg)
I am heading out to the shop now to scrape a bit more on the fades but am gonna take it slow. I won't get much done but just can't seem to stop myself from having at it for a little while!
9 more hours tomorrow of hunters ed with the youngest, but I have all day sunday and monday to play.
Oh man that second picture is bad bad I sure needed my belt! Dang full time job has had me shedding the pounds like crazy!
look better in hand don't she, just a little stiffer on one limb yet, that bottom on in the bottom pics but heck I am just happy I made my first one that will sling an arrow.
That first pic looks real good!
I had to lay on the table, to get a better look! :biglaugh:
Yes, that top pic looks great!
update! Youngest got his hunter education card this morning so it looks like every squirrell within a mile of the house will soon be bow shy!
Ok here is where I am at after i worked on it last night. 50 at 23"
First picture is with the right limb on top.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/tillering3001.jpg)
Second picture is the left limb on top.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/tillering3003.jpg)
I am a lefty and the string favors the right limb (first picture) as being the top as it is off center from the handle just a bit that way.
What do you think?
looks good to me but what the heck do I know. That top pic looks really good.
You are doing a great job, Adeeden! Are you close to the weight you want? Are both limbs of equal length? The bow appears to be balanced in the upper and lower limbs. The first picture looks good. Top limb looks good. The bottom limb looks excellent but just a bit too strong. I'd give it a few scrapes and check again. :) Jawge
Weights on track George and yes both limbs are equal lengnth. I still have adout 3 inches to go so I still have a little shaving room. I'll take a few extra scrapes off the bottom limb as you suggested here shortly.
Thankns again.
I had some free time today so I worked on her some more.
Finaly got her to my 27" draw showing right at 50# on my scale. No Idea how accurate my scale is but it feels pretty good to me.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/fulldraw001.jpg)
Tiller is not perfect but It's close enough for me to live with. I'm learning alot over these last three bows and each one is getting better.
I'm going to run some arrows through it tomorrow to see how she shoots.
Now I just need to work on shaping the handle area, decide if I want to cut in a small shelf or not, shape the tips, put on a small overlay and sand it out.
That is a great tiller. Congratulations!
Don't cut in a shelf! You don't have enough wood on the handle. On my current bow the arrow rests on my hand right at the top of the arrow covering. That may be a bit primitive for some but it is highly effective. Another option is a few pieces of leather for arrow rest. More on my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/leatherhandle.html
I agree with George, tiller looks great, just look at the shadow on the ground, it doesn't get much better than that.....Dan
Good job on that bow, it is so pleasing to release and arrow from a bow you built. I just hope I get a chance to test it on a wily o whitetail.
Great job on that one. Tiller looks pretty dead-on to me.
I agree, your tiller looks really good. I've stopped cutting in arrow shelves. I'll use a piece of antler if I have it, or leather for a floppy rest.
I finaly got it finished the other day.
66" end to end and 64" nock to nock, floppy rest, leather handle, and finished with beeswax and a hair dryer.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/finishedblacklocust002.jpg)
Strung profile.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/finishedblacklocust008.jpg)
grip and floppy rest.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/finishedblacklocust010.jpg)
stained darker on the back and added a little black with a sponge just to break it up a bit.
(http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l87/adeeden/finishedblacklocust004.jpg)
belly and fade.
No finished full draw pictures as I am home alone today but there's one on the previous page.
It has about 1 1/2 of set after shooting and goes down to just about an inch after esting overnight.
Thanks for the help! And Steve thanks again for the stave it was a fun one! Hopefully I can get it over to your place soon for you to inspect.
Well that is a great looking bow. Love the back colors. I don't think any one tackled a black locus at all during the trad.
I really like the sponged on black on the back!
Fine bow!
Cool and Sweet, Dennis! Ya did her fine, man!
Can't wait to pull her back, and feel her over! :D
Love the back, too!
Love the sponge effect on the back. Sweet bow.
:clapper: