Post by: oneraindog on July 21, 2011, 02:50:00 PM
what?
why?
what if there is no splice?
im always confused why people recommend doing something in a book but dont go on to tell you why that is the way to do it. :dunno:
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on July 21, 2011, 02:55:00 PM
Post by: oneraindog on July 21, 2011, 03:03:00 PM
but im still wondering WHY? what is the intended purpose and rationale??
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on July 21, 2011, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: Osagetree on July 21, 2011, 04:30:00 PM
Just can't see our Native American's worrying about limb length or positive tiller... They hit the mark when it counted & long before we met and befriended Ishi. I don't know about the English. Maybe, the asians were fiddling around with such back then.
I like primitive, which in my mind is a simple design of all wood. Like in the Cowboy & Indian movies we watched as kids. I know the picture in my mind is distorted & mostly due to Hollywood but that was the environment I was raised in. As a child, that is what got me interested in archery and I can't see them worrying about 1/8" positve tiller or one limb longer than the other,,,, unless by chance or mistake.....
Someone here once said, "I alway's use K.I.S.S. when making a selfbow".
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 21, 2011, 05:09:00 PM
I kind of feel like by putting the arrow 1 1/4" above center (almost exactly 2 fingers worth) then shooting with 2 fingers under in effect creating a positive tiller on the bottom limb, may be the perfect balance for my bows?
Whos to say.
Just use what works for you and if it's working, keep doing it.
Post by: oneraindog on July 21, 2011, 05:57:00 PM
now i feel dumb because that seems self evident.
how long do you guys make your grip section to allow for the arrow rest or sight window or whatever
?
Post by: Don Drake on July 21, 2011, 06:17:00 PM
On my posts under making my fourth bow in the bowyer's forum, I have pictures of the design drawn on my current project stave.
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on July 21, 2011, 06:30:00 PM
Post by: oneraindog on July 21, 2011, 06:49:00 PM
teacher: "just use this formula and dont ask too many questions"
me:"SKDJFAJHSDFJKASDF"
i lose my sh*t. haha
thanks for all the help.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 21, 2011, 11:24:00 PM
I'm no expert by any means, that's just what I've settled on that works for me.
Post by: Shaun on July 22, 2011, 11:08:00 AM
Even in stiff handle flat bow design the bow tends to be better balanced and positive tiller on the upper limb and limb "timing" work better if the top limb is longer.
This is NOT a matter of "opinion", it is born out in practice and tradition. I don't know any experienced bowyers (100+ bows) who make equal length limb bows.
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on July 22, 2011, 11:19:00 AM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 22, 2011, 11:39:00 AM
But here's the thing, I think by the position of my hand and putting the arrow pass 1 1/4" above actual center of the bow the limbs react as if one was shorter and one was longer..........in principle that is. I think I'm actually making the bottom limb stronger by building my bows the way I do, so in effect it acts like a positive tiller on the bottom limb. If that makes any sense?
I know this debate could probably go on forever because everybody interprets information differently. Bottom line is do what works for you.
No matter how you arrive at the same destination, the desired result is the same for everybody. To make a smooth, accurate, shootable bow as close to perfectly tuned as possible, right?
Post by: Art B on July 22, 2011, 01:05:00 PM
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on July 22, 2011, 01:18:00 PM
Post by: Art B on July 22, 2011, 02:12:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by PEARL DRUMS:I design mine for the way I grip my bows, and then grip a bow for the way it was designed. Now, does it get any simplier than that Pearly? Art
How do you build 'em rookie Artsy?
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 22, 2011, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on July 22, 2011, 02:30:00 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 22, 2011, 02:34:00 PM
Yes equal length limbs bowyer boy... :)
1/4 pos tiller for 1 finger over here.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/agsbow1.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/agsbow3.jpg)
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on July 22, 2011, 03:12:00 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 22, 2011, 03:17:00 PM
Post by: J.F. Miller on July 22, 2011, 03:49:00 PM
if you make bows with limbs of equal length outside of a 4" handle, you will likely need slight negative tiller(lower limb weaker, i.e., the upper limb stiffer) to achieve proper balance, not the other way around, which is a regretfully common misconception.
Post by: Art B on July 22, 2011, 03:57:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by J.F. Miller:
if you make bows with limbs of equal length outside of a 4" handle, you will likely need slight negative tiller(lower limb weaker, i.e., the upper limb stiffer) to achieve proper balance, not the other way around, which is a regretfully common misconception.
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Art
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 22, 2011, 05:44:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 22, 2011, 06:27:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Art B:
quote::thumbsup:
Originally posted by J.F. Miller:
if you make bows with limbs of equal length outside of a 4" handle, you will likely need slight negative tiller(lower limb weaker, i.e., the upper limb stiffer) to achieve proper balance, not the other way around, which is a regretfully common misconception.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 22, 2011, 06:32:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by PEARL DRUMS::saywhat: :nono:
Is that pink dye Royboy?
You kids play nice.
Post by: oneraindog on July 22, 2011, 09:59:00 PM
waaaaaaay better than any math class i ever took, pink dye and all.
thanks.
Post by: Shaun on July 22, 2011, 11:09:00 PM
Unless your hand is 2.5" wide at the grip... you are making the top limb longer.
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 22, 2011, 11:17:00 PM
Doesn't really matter, I'll still keep building them the way it works for me no matter what theory claims to be "correct" depending on who came up with it.
Post by: J.F. Miller on July 23, 2011, 08:50:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:one of the best things, to me, about building and shooting wooden bows is the myriad of possibilities. seeking out the cost/benefit relationships of bow designs that best serve the purpose is half the fun
Doesn't really matter, I'll still keep building them the way it works for me no matter what theory claims to be "correct" depending on who came up with it.
there is no shortage of correct ways to tiller a bow, and there is no shortage of incorrect ways, either. I'm not sure we are all talking about the same things all the time when we discuss balance, timing, tiller, etc.
one thing I am sure of is that the laws of physics work the same in your shop as they do mine. we all work within those confines.
put your bow on a tillering tree with a single point of contact, taking care to rest the handle on the contact point as near you can to the place where the pressure of your hand grip is centered and see where it balances at full draw, making sure to pull the bowstring from the place where your middle finger would be if you were pulling it yourself, and see what you need to do to make it balance where you want it to.
balance, it ain't just for teeter-totters, fellas.
Post by: Art B on July 23, 2011, 09:37:00 AM
You need only to study the many full draw pics that folks post to understand that the greater strain is on the lower limb. Be it even limbs or longer upper limbs. For many of us, a tillering tree is considered a lying tree. We can't mimic by hand what we see on the board by what the tree tells us. Our thinking on this subject will continue to evolve, as I'm sure yours will too. Just keep an open mind to everyone's thoughts.....Art
Post by: J.F. Miller on July 23, 2011, 10:07:00 AM
to each his own. my thinking on the subject never stops evolving. lots of right ways to make a bow. this thread started a question as to why anyone would make a bow with a shorter lower limb, I offered an explanation based on the facts as I see them. I'm not challenging anyone elses opinion. after 15 solid years of making and shooting wooden bows, and with well over 200 successful bows of various designs and materials to my credit, I thought I had enough perspective to offer some of my experience as viable input on this forum. my mistake.
happy tillering everyone.
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 23, 2011, 12:15:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 23, 2011, 06:02:00 PM
I appreciate everyone's opinion and I usually take a little something from all of you. I'm still fairly new at this and if it weren't for some of these guys I would never have gotten as far as I have in such a short time.
Even you Roybert! :knothead: :goldtooth:
Only thing that ever gets under my skin is when somebody starts quoting from books or tries to tell me that what I'm doing doesn't work when I've proven that it does.
I think everybody needs to understand that there's many different ways to arrive at the same destination whether it seems right to them or not and we all have our own style of how we get to the same end.
Afterall, if it weren't for evolving ideas and thinking in a different direction we may still think the world was flat?
Post by: Art B on July 23, 2011, 07:11:00 PM
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 23, 2011, 07:21:00 PM
Post by: Tiabnogard on July 24, 2011, 04:58:00 AM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 24, 2011, 08:07:00 AM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 24, 2011, 08:08:00 AM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 24, 2011, 08:14:00 AM
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 24, 2011, 08:28:00 AM
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 24, 2011, 08:50:00 AM
Post by: Adam Keiper on July 24, 2011, 08:51:00 AM
http://www.bowyersedge.com/organic.html
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 24, 2011, 08:56:00 AM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 24, 2011, 09:24:00 AM
I don't, nor ever had the desire to do that and I don't see how it could be any good for the bow, especially a self bow.
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 24, 2011, 10:54:00 AM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 24, 2011, 12:56:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Roy from Pa::biglaugh: Now that just ain't right Roybert! :nono:
I think the only reason some bows are made with a shorter lower limb is so short guys can shoot a long bow... :knothead:
Post by: George Tsoukalas on July 24, 2011, 02:10:00 PM
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on July 24, 2011, 02:14:00 PM
Post by: oneraindog on July 24, 2011, 03:02:00 PM
but i figure that wont get much clearer until there are many more bow building years behind me. which i am very excited about.
so i guess ill just build this bow and see what happens!
Post by: Roy from Pa on July 24, 2011, 03:13:00 PM
I used to make my bows with the bottom limb 1 1/2 shorter than the top limb. Now I make my bows with equal length limbs. In my opinion, my bows shoot better with equal length limbs. But that is just my bows and my shooting style. Trust me Joby, you can't just make one bow, it will never happen. You make one and you make two and then three and it never ends:)
Just don't listen to anything Semo Elmo says, cause he from Missouri:) He can't bass fish either:)
His biggest Bass. LOL
I use them for bait here in Pa...
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/aafish.jpg)
Post by: oneraindog on July 24, 2011, 03:34:00 PM
trust me this is far from the last one. this will be my 4th (3rd is still in progress, sinew curing)
my biggest problem is making myself slow down and not rush just to get the next project started :)