Trad Gang
Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: SEMO_HUNTER on March 26, 2011, 09:29:00 AM
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I've got a good stave with a real bad ugly spot dead center of the stave. I've studied it from every angle and there's just not any good way to work around it. I've decided that it's too good for firewood, but that center section has got to go. I'm thinking about cutting that 6" section out and splicing the two halves together, which are each still going to be at least 36" long. I'm sure that is plenty to do a splice and have plenty left over since I make my longbows around 64" now with good success.
Any of you all with experience splicing want to offer some advice, tips, links to good info, ect. on this subject?
I need some grey bearded advice on this venture cause I've never attempted such a project before. :saywhat:
One last question.......After the splicing, is it ok to go ahead and put it on the caul to add my curves to it as long as I don't heat the mid section where the splice is?
Thanks!
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Semo I have been cleaning up two small mulberry limbs I considered using my precious supply of sinew on to make a couple of short bows. My neighbor talked some good sense into me and told me I should make one good bow instead of a couple questionable bows. He suggested cutting and fitting the handle splice then boiling the splices, then forcing them together while they are hot and plyable. He just uses TB3 for glue, but he says after it drys a couple of days he puts a small hard wood pin all the way through the center of the splice from the side. I havent tried it, but after seeing the nice piece of ERC in the other thread I think I will, because it reminded me why I was saving my sinew.
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I have made a couple and it is pretty easy. Just make sure the two pieces lay flat when you lay it out. After you cut them I use urac 185 because it has a gap filling capabilities. It will have a wrap on it so it won't be seen. You can also put in some reflex when you glue it up.
(http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm216/ranger500us/IMG_0572.jpg)
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Gary Davis uses the urac and said in his self bow DVD that you can still heat the bow the same way because the urac is waterproof... He states that there is no difference between the two when he is completed and they shoot just like a one piece bow
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Thanks for the info guys.
Jeff- I had actually thought about the dowl pin idea. I remember reading about a guy on TG that was replacing the handle wrap on a bow that was made years ago and he found out that it was a splice bow with dowel pins through the handle splice. He said it shot great and had shot great for years and he had no idea it was a 2 piece bow. That's a great idea, and I think I will incorporate that into my splice. I'd also thought about a white oak or red oak lam over the splice while I'm at it. With those 2 added safety measures I don't think it should ever come apart.
Ranger- That looks real nice. I can only hope that mine would come out as good as the one you have pictured.
One question about that. How do you chase your ring through the splice section? Or do you just chase a ring from the splice end out to the tip?
Justin- I've heard that they actually shoot better sometimes because you can somewhat control the grain when you splice? I guess I'll find out. LOL
If this turns out nice it may either be my swap bow or I may have to keep it for myself?
Afterall, aren't we supposed to step outside our comfort zone for the bow swap build? By trying something totally new.
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Semo, the handle really don't bend so there is no need to chase a ring. This bow was one that one limb broke so I took a piece of scrap and made another limb and spliced them together. I am sure you will turn out another fine bow.
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Chris, Here is a link to a splice along that Terry posted about five or six years back: http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=2;t=000045 . I have used his method on over a dozen bows using either resorcinol or Urac 185. I pinned the handles on the first couple of bows I spliced, but have since found it is unnecessary.
Here is a picture of three sets of billets curing by the fire, that I glued up last month (sorry for the poor quality).
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/RobertsonVisonFalcon070.jpg)
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SEMO - these guys are spot-on! I have spliced several bows the way described, using the hard-wood dowel and without.... never had a failure.
For uniformity of the limbs, I actually like spliced bows better'n full stave ones. Given a choice, even though there's more steps to completion, I'd use billets every time. This helps to use questionable staves too. Mike
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Just remember Chris, the center of the splice may or may not be the center of your bow/handle. Leave the billets a little long to start with and after glue-up just lay it out like a regular stave to be on the safe side.
Where's your arrow pass going to be in relation to the center of the bow?
I rough shape both billets close to a floor tillered stage before glue-up. This allows me to match the surface planes of both limbs right out in front of the handle fades. If you misalign these planes then it's like having a twist in the handle. Gotta get it right the first time.......Art
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Wow, ask and ye shall recieve! Thanks Guys!
Lot's of great info here!
Walt- I did come acrossed AZStickman's website when I did a search and read it thoroughly before I posted here. I'm glad you mentioned it because that's the way I was going to do it depending on what you Gents had to say about splicing.
Crappy pic or not, that's a happy scene right there! :thumbsup:
I got a few pics for y'all.
Here's what I started with, and I already cut one end off before I realized that I didn't get any before pics, so you'll just have to use your imagination. LOL
Please pardon my own crappy pics, these were taken with my cell phone.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceStave007.jpg)
Here's the problem area in question and you can see that these 2 major anomolies didn't leave me a whole lot of choice. If it were just 1 knot I would work around it, but 2 knots spaced apart like they are.......I just couldn't imagine any good way to get through there.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceStave006.jpg)
Here's the first half peeled and chased down to the first ring. It's not the one I'm going to keep, but I usually chase the first one I come to just to see how the grain turns and what I'm dealing with, then I'll move on from there.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceStave001.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceStave002.jpg)
More to come later...........to be continued.
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Originally posted by Art B:
Just remember Chris, the center of the splice may or may not be the center of your bow/handle. Leave the billets a little long to start with and after glue-up just lay it out like a regular stave to be on the safe side.
Where's your arrow pass going to be in relation to the center of the bow?
I rough shape both billets close to a floor tillered stage before glue-up. This allows me to match the surface planes of both limbs right out in front of the handle fades. If you misalign these planes then it's like having a twist in the handle. Gotta get it right the first time.......Art
I've been wondering about ya Art, I know your a splicer cause you had mentioned some billets in one of our conversations. I haven't seen ya around here for a few days.
I usually go dead center of the bow, for the center of my grip, then the arrow goes right above my knuckle. So just guessing off of that, I'd say the center of my arrow is about 1" to 1.5" above actual center.
You make a good point about matching the planes up, I had wondered about that but figured I would work through that stage when I got there. It makes sense to get each billet worked down to nearly a bow blank before glue up, thanks for bringing that up.
I'll need all of y'alls help with this as I go along. This is completely uncharted territory for me, but it's exciting also.
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Actually, Gary Davis uses resorcinol. After it cures, it's perfectly alright to steam and use a heat gun on it. To get the "plane" right, flatten the bottoms of the billets parallel to the back of the bow using a belt sander. That will give you a solid surface to use your bandsaw. You don't want it rocking back and forth. If it doesn't have a perfect fit, resorcinol's great at filling small gaps. Here's a template that I made up for just this event:
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0ByVgFy-gsQnrZDBlZmI1YmUtMjA2ZS00MWI1LWFiM2YtMWM0YWE2ZWUwYTdj&hl=en&authkey=CJnVkxw
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"So just guessing off of that, I'd say the center of my arrow is about 1" to 1.5" above actual center."
Here, the center of you splice can't be the center of your bow. You wouldn't want any joint showing above your leather grip, now would we :readit: ...........Art
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First, here is a picture of the critter in the upper right hand corer of my previous picture:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/MountainGoat001.jpg)
Here is a visual of what Art is referring to making the bottom of the tree the center of the handle. I didn’t want the big knot hole in this stave to be in the middle to upper third of bow limb.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/RobertsonVisonFalcon059.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/RobertsonVisonFalcon063.jpg)
So cut the stave in half and reversed the knothole closer to the handle:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/RobertsonVisonFalcon064.jpg)
Here it is redue in size, cut out and ready for the glue up:
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/RobertsonVisonFalcon065.jpg)
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/RobertsonVisonFalcon050.jpg)
In addition, especially if you have narrowed the limbs, be sure to align the tips with the handle (both before and after the glue up). I use a piece of B50 with a large castle nut on one end and a clamp on the other.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/RobertsonVisonFalcon068.jpg)
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Thanks for the visuals Walt, that really helps alot to be able to see some examples to go along with the advice.
BTW- Thanks for the pics of the Goat, man them are some tuff buggers to go after ain't they?
I've only watched it on TV hunting channels, but they live on the edge of sheer cliffs!!
How the heck a guy could ever get close to one is beyond me?
I got what your saying Art, my splice will need to be low enough that my handle wrap will cover it up so it needs to be slightly off center. I'll figure that in when I lay it out.
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Art- Look what I found on the stump end of the other billet when I cleaned the bark and sapwood off.
This will work out perfect, the knot will be just above the fade and shouldn't pose a problem, but add a little character. There Osage fairy has smiled upon me. :goldtooth:
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceStave.jpg)
The direction of the arrow will be my splice and I'll butt it up with the larger ring end of the other billet.
Does that sound like a good plan to you all?
Seems logical to me.
I'm going to chase my rings and narrow my staves down and get them prepped for gluing this evening hopefully. Then tomorrow I'll lay out my splices and cut them in. I don't have any of the glue you all mentioned, all I've got is TBII so unless I can use that, I'll have to order some of the glue you all have mentioned.
Where do you guys buy your glue from?
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You don't want to use that TB glue Chris. I've used two-epoxy (it can't take any heat unlike the urac) a number of times without any problems but I would recommend you order some urac-185 from Three Rivers. You can order straight from Nelsons Paint but shipping and wait time is kinda out of line IMO. 3R's cost more but shipping is reasonable. So you'll end up paying about the same either way you go but you'll get the urac way quicker from 3R's.
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That's probably what I'll do Art, I need some anyway for other stuff like backings, handle overlays and such. I just hate waiting ya know?
3Rivers is fairly quick at getting my stuff out to me though, it shouldn't take more than 3 days to get here. What's the rush anyway right? The billets ain't going anywhere.
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Just ordered some this morning and after comparing shipping charges from a couple of places 3rivers was the cheapest.
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i just wanted to show a pic of an old indian archery flatbow that was given to me. the pic shows that it is a spliced bow. i also thought you might be interested in the way the handle is pinned with a dowel. the bow is lemon wood(degame). don (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h356/donny-szymanski/refinishing%20indian%20archery%20flatbow/refinishingindianarcheryflatbow006.jpg) (http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h356/donny-szymanski/refinishing%20indian%20archery%20flatbow/refinishingindianarcheryflatbow005.jpg)
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A dowel through a splice is a bad idea and doesn't make the joint stronger or more stable.
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Originally posted by Living_waters:
Just ordered some this morning and after comparing shipping charges from a couple of places 3rivers was the cheapest.
Thanks for that tip, I was just wondering if anybody place else was cheaper. Like I said, I'm going to need it anyway so I'll just go ahead and get it ordered on Monday. It's not just every place that carries bow building supplies anyway, so bow builders are kinda limited as to where we can get our goods.
Don- They sure did a good job on the splice, I can barely see the lines in the handle. I think you were the one that I mentioned that I remembered reading a post about that bow?
What do you all think about a White or Red Oak lam over the handle portion? I know it may not need it, but I thought it might make the transition between the ring on each limb a little bit easier. Just thinking out loud.
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Geeze Elmo, oop's Semo.. What kind of Bowyer doesn't have Urac185 in his shop? LOL
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
Geeze Elmo, oop's Semo.. What kind of Bowyer doesn't have Urac185 in his shop? LOL
Well Roybert, I haven't need it so far since I've only built one piece bows from a single stave.
But now I've got more billets than staves left so I need to learn how to use billets.
Wish me luck, I know you'll be lookin out for me. :rolleyes: :saywhat:
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LOL.. Well now Elmo, if you are over stocked with billets, send me some son... All I ever use are billets and I have spliced prolly a hundred together with URAC 185.
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
LOL.. Well now Elmo, if you are over stocked with billets, send me some son... All I ever use are billets and I have spliced prolly a hundred together with URAC 185.
Find me a tanned beaver hide and I'll match you up a pair of sisters......Deal? :thumbsup:
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Now ya want me to get ya some beaver? LOL
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A Beaver for 2 sisters is a pretty good swap in my book! Your gettin 2 for the price of 1....LOL :biglaugh:
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:)
I'm working on it son...
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Ok, I got my Urac yesterday and was going to make a splice yesterday evening when the bandsaw blade broke in mid stream.
So I was dead in the water until I made a trip to Lowes today and got a new one.
Back in business and got my first splice glued up this afternoon @4:45pm and the temp was 72deg.F in the garage. Can says let sit for 6hrs, but I'm leaving it overnight.
BTW- Can says to refrigerate, but it didn't say anything about the hardner (powder) whether it needed to go in the frig or not?
Here's some pics of the glue up.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp004.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp003.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp001.jpg)
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Nice job Chris! Looks like you got the hang of things. Splicing isn't that big a deal as you've discovered. And I think you'll really like working with limbs of similar working properties.
My powder sets out in my building winter and summer and works just fine....Art
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Thanks Art. It really wasn't that big of deal with the actual gluing and splicing. It's the stave preperation that takes a long time to get it flat and just so for the proper location on the glue up.
It's also going to get some red oak or white oak overlays when the splice is cured.
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Looking good Semo!
Watching this one with interest.
CJ
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Why the overlays Chris? If you done things correctly, your splice will be stronger than a solid piece of wood. Hey, I cut shelfs into mine without any hesitation....Art
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Oh yeah, I think it's plenty strong no doubt about that. I just wanted some contrast around the grip area. I'm stepping outside my box a little on this one. It's still going to be a basic one piece Osage bow, just a little somethin added around the grip area.
These two pieces I splice were what I had laying around under my bench that were just left overs and were barely more than slats, so there's not much meat around the handle area for a grip anyway. The oak will beef it up so I have something to shape into a handle basically and hopefully it will look nice?
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Never really trusted overlays on these selfbows myself because they still bend in the handle somewhat. I like to add a handle piece to the back of the handle to fill it out......Art
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Looking good Semo! Is this going to turn into a "build-a-long"? (hope so) :coffee:
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Nice job Chris.
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Good job Chris....... but where is the part about spending half a day straightening the billets? OOOOHH yeah you have straight wood, my bad I was thinking you only had this nasty tangled crooked mess like me. LOL
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Thanks guys, I think it turned out pretty good? I'm going to open the "Package" this afternoon and see what I got. It's like waiting on Christmas.
Originally posted by Living_waters:
Good job Chris....... but where is the part about spending half a day straightening the billets? OOOOHH yeah you have straight wood, my bad I was thinking you only had this nasty tangled crooked mess like me. LOL
Not always my friend, I have my share of crappy wood. :knothead:
I just take it all in stride and work around it like we all do. Each one is different and I've made some sweet shooting bows from staves that were ugly as sin. Staves that most guys would cut up into firewood. I've also made lots of firewood.
BTW- Did you all know that hedge burns awesome? It burns hot and leave very little ash.
Don't ask me how I know this.
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Originally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:
BTW- Did you all know that hedge burns awesome? It burns hot and leave very little ash.
Don't ask me how I know this.
Heh, Yep, according to Wikipedia it has the highest BTU content of any wood.
Osage Wiki Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maclura_pomifera)
I use all the scraps for heat. Not that I get that many scraps. Osage is a premium around Colorado. I use as much a I can for the bows.
CJ
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I can believe it, and I though Hickory or Locust was the hottest wood you could burn?
Since I cut my own hedge/Osage I have lots of end cuts and scraps from debarking, removing sapwoood, and general prepping. There's always some offall from the logs and such that don't get used in the finished staves and we don't waste anything around here. As a matter of fact I ran out of red oak firewood just a few days too soon and the cold weather came back. I burned almost 100% Osage for nearly a week every day I was working out in the shop.
I got some more pics of the splice stave coming shortly.
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Ok here's the results. I guess this looks good? My first one so I really don't have anything to go by, but I do like the gap filling properties of the URAC 185. I did find out that 72deg. is borderline being too cold in the shop to use this stuff, unless maybe you could add more hardner? It took a long time to set up and when I peeled it open today it was still a tad bit tacky. So I put it in my hot box for a couple hours and it got hard as a rock.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp008.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp009.jpg)
Here's the oak handle over lays, I used TBII on these. Hope that doesn't interact with the Urac??
I had a nice piece of Red oak planed down smooth that was laying under my work bench and also a piece of White Oak that was planed. I couldn't make up my mind which one to use so I used both. Red oak on one side and white oak on the other. Should be an interesting combo. :goldtooth:
I don't even know if this experiment will make it all the way to the end or not? It's more or less just practice work, the Osage is rather thin and I'm hoping to get at least 45# out of it, maybe not? Hopefully it will at least make a nice bow for my nephew's birthday? Which really doesn't need to be anymore than about 30# or so anyway.
Even if it doesn't, it was just scrap that almost ended up being firewood and I needed the practice run, so I really don't have anything to lose.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp005.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/SpliceGlueUp007.jpg)
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Chris, just my opinion, but I think you should have used the urac for your handle pieces...........Art
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Here's why I went with TBII.
It's a heck of alot cheaper than the Urac, I can buy it locally and don't have to order it and pay shipping, and there isn't that much stress on this area with a board on both sides. This area isn't going to bend, and I've used TBII on things of this nature before and couldn't tear them apart without ripping the wood all to pieces.
So I'll save the Urac for the jobs that only Urac can do, and use Tite bond for all the things I "know" it's capable of doing. :D
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Splice looks nice Chris, and why didn't you use Urac for handles?
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Originally posted by Roy from Pa:
Splice looks nice Chris, and why didn't you use Urac for handles?
Don't mess with me Roybert, it's early and your billets haven't made it out of my garge yet, so you better be nice to me this morning. :coffee:
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I remember testing for bond on Osage to Osage with the Tite-bond II and got less than desirable results Chris. Maybe the TB III has better adhesion to oily woods like Osage. Don't know, looks like we're about to find out :coffee: .......Art
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That splice looks good Chris. I got a bunch of 3' pieces of hedge I might have to try that with.
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Oh well, if a handle lam flies off I can always put it back on with the Urac. This was and is a practic project anyway.
BTW- I glued a Rosewood/Osage riser together with TB glue and it's still holding strong, I glue all my tips on with TB glue also, have yet to have one of those fail on me. But that's not to say that it can't happen?
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Unless you make a bunch of backed bows, 6 or more in the next year, your urac will dry up(get thick) or go bad before you use it up.
You don't need to put the hardener in the frig.
Had you used urac for your handle overlay you could heat bend the handle to fine tune your string alignment, not so with tite bond.
Use urac for all your bow gluing, use it up, buy some more. With all the work we put into bows, using a bomb proof glue is worth the trouble acquiring it.
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Good point, I hadn't thought about it going bad. I may use it up doing splices, but chances are some of it will get tossed eventually?
I don't plan on bending the handle, but I will put some shape into the limbs when it's time.
At any rate this is good practice for me and I may end up with a shootable bow out of it?