hi everyone i am going on my first elk hunt.wood you take a 30 yard shoot with a 50 pound long bow. i shoot out to 30 yard will, but dont no if it wii kill that far.i am new to trad started about 7 mounts ago. i took a doe at about 25 yards this past hunting season. thank you guys & have a great day.
Frank
If your arrow is shooting straight; not off to one side or the other; or hitting up or down- then your bow will be fine with 30 yard shots.
Make sure your broadheads are super sharp; and your bow tuned ( by adjusting the string nock and the spine of the arrow) so that the arrow shoots like a dart; and you should do OK.
If your bugling elk; or cow calling them in; you might get more 15 yard shots or less- then you think.
Congratulations on your deer !
thank you brian for the help. i shoot 19/16 with weight tubes with 125 broad head.i bear shot then & they go weight next to the fleathed arroes & straight.
Frank, to add to Brian, with that lower poundage I would suggest a 2 blade. On a quartering shot, elk are thick animals. Good luck and congrats on your deer.
Absolutely not. This is not a judgment, but just a straight answer to your uninformed but straight question. Esp. with a bow pulling at the very bottom of realistic and ethical possibilities for an animal as big and tough as elk, you need to go full-out with Dr. Ashby recommendations, including a minimum of 650 grains of arrow weight (and my long personal experience says that's too low with such a light bow as 50lbs). Can you shoot consistently, tired and under great pressure, to a 6" bulleye at 30 yards with a 650-grain arrow? Do you want to spend all that money and effort on a hunt of a lifetime, knowing you're pushing the limits really hard and will likely return home with no elk and bad memories? If the answer to either question is NO, then bring the gear you need to get the job done properly, and hold your shots to the universally accepted 20-yard max for trad gear. Otherwise, no offense intended, but I have more concern for the elk than for you, so please stay home. The question should not be "Is this possible?" but rather "Will this setup assure a fast humane kill and recovery even if the worst happens and I hit heavy bone?" Again, this is not just a matter of personal ethics ... it's a matter of good sense and getting the best bang for your bucks.
50 lb bow doesn't say enough to me. Someone shooting 50#@26 has alot less energy than someone shooting 50# with a long 30" powerstroke. A 50lb selfbow and a 50lb super-modern recurve certainly have a huge performance difference. Pay more attention to how many fps you can get out of the 650 grain arrow, and how perfect you can tune.
As far as what you should do, your ethics are your business as long as its legal. Colorado only mandates 35# bow for elk, so that's where they stand. From a pure management perspective, some areas are actually overpopulated for what their habitat can hold, so its not like you risk completely ruining everyone else's opportunity with a bad shot, though it would sure make me sick to have it happen. Consider going after a 500 lb cow instead of the herd bull for that type of shot. But, its really all up to you.
Their vitals are much bigger than a deer (maybe 15" circle), but so are their non-vitals, making a clean miss much less likely on a bad shot. The bigger the animal, the smaller the vital to non-vital ratio.
I have to second Dave's opinion. Get close you'll enjoy it more- doing your self a favor and you'll be less likely to have a wounding shot - doing the elk and all of us who love to hunt a favor.
Sometimes we have to forgo our own success? to achieve success in the bigger picture. If we don't police ourselves we best not be upset when others step in to do the job.
Hey have a fun hunt and I hope you find success!!
After an arm injury, I've had to drop 15#'s of pull weight on my hunting bow. I now shoot a 51# Black Widow recurve. I was a little leary hunting elk for the first time with that light of a bow. I got a 15yd. shot at a quartering away cow and got a complete pass through with a 2 blade head and carbon arrow. She ran 40yds. and fell over. I would limit yourself to 20yds max. and a broadside or quartering away shot and you should be ok.
I've killed a few elk with a 50# @ 28 PSE Impala. My draw is a full 30", so at my draw I was at 55#.
Elk don't like to bleed externally. Even when you double lung them with a snuffer. They have such a huge chest cavity, that the chest cavity usually has to fill with blood before they start to bleed externally much. The animal is usually dead before this happens. I've never been on an elk blood tracking job, where there was an over abundance of blood, therefore, I feel it doesn't matter if you use a multiple or 2 blade head. If you are using 3 or 4 blade heads because you want a blood trail, there probably isn't going to be much of a blood trail regaurdless. I recomend you stick to a 2 blade head for penatration reasons.
Also keep in mind that, if you don't take out a major artery, BOTH lungs, or the heart with your arrow, your chances of animal recovery are very VERY small. If you single lung an elk, you have a 98% chance of loosing it.
However, if you do manage to take out one of the aformentioned vitals, the elk probably won't go further then 50 to 100 yards before expiring.
I do believe 30 yards is a little far for your set up. If you set in your mind that you will not shoot past 20 yards, it's not that hard to get that close to elk. Patience, patience, patience, patience,.....and oh ya,..wind in your face,... you won't have a problem. If you hunt thick cover you have no choice but to get close.
Don't risk it, man. It's not worth it. Like Dave2old said,... you can get lucky and kill an elk at 30 yards with your set up. But,... If you're depending on luck for your setup to be efficent, you are better off staying home.
That being said, I would love to see you have a wonderfull time.
Todd
Whether you should shoot at 30 yards is a question only you can answer. There are many reasons not to stretch your range.......but lack of power is not one of them. When guys talk about limiting shots to 20 yards or less because they think that their draw weight is marginal I fear that there is a lack of real understanding of how arrows function. It is actually quite likely that your arrows will penetrate better at 40 yards than they would at 5 yards. --Not because they gain power downrange (they ARE shedding energy in flight and slowing down) but because the arrow shaft is still oscillating rapidly at close range-At longer range it has stabilized more and has more of the available energy driving directly in line with the broadhead. Broadhead tipped arrows are extremely lethal to the full length of their flight.......but hitting where you want to gets progressively difficult as range increases.
I agree that an arrow may be flying straightet at 40 yards - assuming no cross wind. It will also be MUCH less likely to be on target.
This thread began with a question of up would you take a 30 yard shot at elk and would this set up kill at that range. There seems to be no disagreement of the killing ability - it could happen.
The question is would you do it. If that is the question asked by someone with out experience then I think it needs to be answered and leaving that up to the person does not serve anyone - certainly not elk and elk hunting. The more wounding stories, the more we allow our excitement and desire for killing success? to overcome reasonable restraint the faster we will lose our hunting rights.
I can't imagine a more disappointing and unsuccessful first elk hunt than wounding and losing any elk. It's still is the process not the product - first trip or 100th.
Have fun and enjoy the whole experience.
Only you can answer this but I'd suspect you do not have the experience or confidence to do it. Keep it under 20.
Frank,
I was more concerned with the reference to a 1916 arrow. Even with the weight tubes, way too light. Depending on the bow, 50# should be OK. Just get close(closer than 30 yards) and make sure that your arrow is flying straight with a good cut on impact 2 bladed head. I regularly hunt elk with bows around 50-52 pounds. I shoot 645gr heavy front weighted GT 75/95 carbons with 160gr Grizzlies or Stos'.
A personal pet pieve, proof your postings. It was very hard for me to follow them with all the gramatical/spelling problems. Good luck and hunt safe.
A change in mindset is in order here. Rather than thinking about how far you can shoot, a better approach is to think about how close you can get. I second Dave2old and Mark's advice.
I have read to many stories of women taking elk with 45 lbs bows and less. In the fifties and sixties, 50lb recurve bows were the most popular and used to take just about everything on the north american continent! These were the old models with dacron strings, and we not the fastest bows. Just remember, a well tuned bow with arrows matched to your bow, and very sharp two blade broadhead, and of course a well place shot is the perfect storm for success! Good luck! :thumbsup:
take teh shot you think you can make
if you KNEW you could slip an arrow between 2 ribs at 60 yards, your setup would be fine. But you can't garuantee it vs the animal moving and you hitting him in the thick shoulder bone quartering to you.
somewhere there is a balance, each hunter has to figure it out on their own
That said I took a 30 yardish shot at a big bull with a 52# longbow a few years back and I shot high
hi everyone thanks for all the help. i am very new to trad gear. i wood never take a shoot i could not do. i was just asking what you all throught, now i know. i will take my compound on this trip & use my trad bow for white tails. when i asked the was to see if the bow had the power, i draw 28". when i put the bow on the press it was 53 pounds. thanks everone & have a good day.
Frank, tree man is right about the penetration issue, so the only limit on distance is your ability to place the shot.
nice work everybody. Turned a trad hunter into a compound hunter by assuming he can't hit the ribcage of an elk at 15 yards. :knothead:
I am speechless to what I just read, maybe they didn't want to sound native, but that's what it looks like. Sorry but that's what I got out of it. I second the motion Brian :confused: :confused: :banghead:
He'll probably take his compound and have 10 yd. shot, and all the way home, he'll be thinking about this thread.
Frank,
Put that compound down and practice with your recurve.
Keep shooting and then shoot some more. You will become very proficient and you will be able to kill an elk.
I speak from experience.
You won't regret it.
The only reason not to hunt elk with your recurve is because you haven't practiced enough.
It will have more than enough oomph for elk. plenty
Just tune your arrows perfectly, get well designed sharp broadheads, and don't take shots beyond your effective range and you'll be fine. Some peoples' effective range is 15 yards, some trad guys can shoot over 40 very well, it just depends.
What specific bow are you shooting?
I generally agree with A4C ... but ... there are a LOT more elements to "effective range" than just where we can "generally" (we can toss out those occasional "fliers," right?) put arrows on a practice range under perfect conditions, including wind, the shooter's mental and physical state (did you just climb a mountain, and are you hyper-buck-fevered because this is your first close encounter with a 700-pound deer?, etc.). I don't give a hoot whether we recruit new traditional "shooters" or not, sorry. As Don Thomas says, "anyone can buy a longbow." True traditionalists aren't recruited, we are "created" by some mysterious internal difference that makes us want to do things simply, ethically, and well, no matter the costs to our "success." Guys, I've lived this drama very personally for a very long time, and come to the point near the end of my run where I don't give a hoot about quantity of hunters, including trad hunters, but only about quality. I don't give a hoot about your or my "chances" of doing this or that at the far edge of probabilities ... I care about the gorgeous animals we work so hard to kill, and what our view of their worth reveals about our view of our own worth. What we do is justifiable only when we prepare for killing game as we would prepare to kill ourselves or our closest loved ones, should it have to be done: fast, clean, painless, and as close as possible to ZERO chance of leaving a cripple behind in pain. If you care less than that about the animals we "harvest" (a stupid euphemism, as deer and elk are NOT turnips!), then please go bowling, as you are not an ally, but the enemy. This is not some computer game; this is REAL -- life and death. You want to recruit ANYone to trad hunting at ANY cost to the game and the self-respect of our proud minority -- not with my blessings. I want fewer and better hunters out there. The biggest force calling for more hunters at any cost is the industry, who wants to Sell Stuff to us, and the paid flunkies of that industry ... and well-meaning but suckered-in followers. This guy had it right when he said he'd take his compound hunting again this year for elk, and save the trad bow for whitetails where he knows he's in the ethical ballpark. Trad hunting is not up for election. We don't need votes or delegates. We do need to hold to the highest possible standards, as no one else is these days. Dave
I think we successfully ran Frank off for no good reason. His 50# LB would have been more than enough. Regardless of what you shoot from stick-n-string to 300 mag, if ya get in the shoulder bone your singing a sad tale.
guys i did not what to make this tobe more then it is. i have been hunting with a compound for 30 years took numers pope & young white tails. spot & stocked manny pope & young black bears. was up in alasks on grily hunt & had one about 12 yards away let him walk. was looking for boone & crocket.so as for a hunter gos i have been around. I just wanted to try something differnt, so i went to trad archey& was just asking about the power of the bow. thank you for all the help & have a great day.
I can't believe what i just read. Challenging the ethics of shooting a 50lb longbow on elk @ 30 yards?
That's it...after reading this post I am moving to the coast to live in a redwood tree like Butterfly did, that way they can't cut it down with me in it. Are there any tradgangers on the coast that could bring me food to my tree? Vegan only please. I now have lots of good gear for sale. Anybody want a few bows and lots of other equipment?
Or maybe I will go the other drastic route...anybody want to trade all of my archery equipment for a .416 Rigby, I am going squirrel hunting tomorrow and don't want to be under gunned. I mean really I don't the squirrels to suffer or be unethical about my hunting practices.
frank the hunter - if ou've accomplished that much, then I suspect deep down you're looking for a more personal challenge anyway, right ? killing more animals with a compound is gauranteed, but with a trad bow ? THATS CHALLENGE isn't it ?
Shoot your 53# bow, take shots you feel you can make, and enjoy a helluva hunt. If you kill an elk with that bow, imagine the accomplishment and satisfaction ? and if you dont imagine the story and the thrill of that trad elk hunt you'll have ?
No one is turning anyone here into a "compounder" BTW
Frank.....I just got thru reading all the post here and it looks to me a hornets nest was stirred up. :readit: I wacthed a fellow shoot an elk with a 51# longbow @21 yards and the elk went less then 50 yards and was down. you have enough bow, but shot placement is critical.
We have to respect Dave2old opinion, just like we would want him to respect ours. But it's just that...an opinion? I just don't understand this comment:
"This guy had it right when he said he'd take his compound hunting again this year for elk, and save the trad bow for whitetails where he knows he's in the ethical ballpark."
Are whitetails any less of an animal? Do they not demand the same respect as a Colorado Elk? And last time I checked the vitals on a deer are smaller? High standards are a must, but it could have been communicated in a better way, maybe offering some friendly advice or even a phone call to hash this out. Then you would have known his experiences and could have judged his skill level before making assumptions. Just my OPINION.
Good Luck with any decision you make. And keep shooting!
My $.02 worth..As far as I'm concerned it's about the "hunt" not the kill. Sounds to me that traditional archery is not his thing ; it's either in your blood or it's not.True traditional archers make a commitment to the challenge.Getting in close is a BIG part of it.We should all limit our distance to be ethical and effective.In my opinion 50# is plenty at the "right" distance with the right (man or women) behind the bow.JUST SAYIN'...Doug
I've tried staying out of this one, but I'm going to "weigh" in here, and keep it to the point.
Whitetails are definetly "lesser" animals than elk....as far as body size and difficulty to kill. Take this from somebody who hunts them regularly and has hundreds of friends who do so as well. Dave is one of them, and simply cares dearly for the resource. He is from CO, I am from MT....we are not from NJ, MO, or any such state where an elk hunting endeavor is an occasional occurance by ourselves or our buddies....so take this "opinion" as you may.
Elk being bigger, require bigger gear, with optimal performance regarding broadhead selection and tuning. Anything less is disrespectful to the game.
Frank...your settup is at the "bottom" in terms of bow poundage, and you need to use heavy arrows and good two-blade heads. There I've said it. I tell all hunters who ask, the same thing...to "challenge" them to improve their settups. They ask....we tell them what we think!
Frank...you should limit yourself, especially with a lighter bow weight settup, to close (less than 20 yards) shots and broadside only! I have concerns for folks, especially at the low end of the bow weight spectrum, shooting quartering away shots at elk, because an elks full stomach is the size of a bale of hay...thats a lot to get through to reach vitals. Keep it in mind. By the way, I tell every bowhunter that asks, the same thing.
A poorly hit elk is simply a nightmare. They can go for miles, and you will not be able to keep up. Blood spoor most often is sparse at best. Keep that in mind, I tell every bowhunter that asks the same thing.
I'm sure everyone here, myself included can relate a tale of an easy elk kill. I can also give you examples of twenty bad ones for every good one. And many with folks with much better settups than a lot of you guys on here are advocating. A hunter from Jersey, or anywhere back east, upon seeing an elk for the first time at close range, is likely to be overwhelmed. Just because you can pull of a 30 yard shot at a deer, does'nt mean you can repeat your success at 20, or 15, or 10, or even 5 yards for that matter. It happens, and it happens a lot. I've seen very experienced elk hunters get rattled and miss the whole animal at less than 15 yards. Bigger, don't mean easier.
I would'nt dream of going to Africa to hunt african game, without talking to folks who have a great deal of experience in the matter. Their are some on here who need to learn to "yeild", IMO their limited experience a bit, and listen to those who have done it quite a bit. As a guide out west, I saw half the bowhunters I guided be overwhelmed with the experience of elk hunting, despite their preparations. My best advice is learn from those who know....and plan for the worst scenarios, and then you won't be surprised when they happen, and if they don't, you will have had a much better hunt in the end for the extra preparation you put in.
It' gonna be a challenge, but hey, that's what it's about for us trad guys anyway.
Frank, I wish you luck on your endeavor...and hope that you choose to take your simple stick and string to hunt with.
As for me, I have never killed an elk with a bow. I do however know what my equipment and I are capable of....so I wouldn't hesitate to shoot at (and I believe cleanly kill) an elk at 30, maybe even 40 yards if the conditions were perfect and that "green light" went off in my head. Of course I'd prefer 10...but I know I could do it further if everything felt right. Your mileage may vary...
From Mark Baker
"that's what it's about for us trad guys anyway"
Does that include others that are not from Montana or Colorado?
It sounds a little bit like categorizing, experiencizing people. I know that we have to know our limitations, and calculate our abilities. But aren't we making a mountain out of a mole hill, when we're talking about a 50 lb. bow, and a 30 yd. shot. The gentleman hasn't even given us a scenario, a lot of comments have duped him for failure.
And that maybe exactly what happens, but isn't that a part of experiencing, can each of us by giving advice, assure him of success !
Isn't that a part of traditional hunting, are we saying those that have the experience are better because they will not fail? I think were stretching it, and this isn't about one person, think of all those that may have wanted to go elk hunting, and they come across something like this, and we dashes their hopes, gives them a lack of confidence in their abilities, just because they've read something by those that say they have " more experience" because they have shot an elk.
In the time I've been here, which is years, this is the first time, I feel disappointment in any advice that has been given. And in some cases or comments a taste of arrogance. We all have to start someplace, and I realize, not on elk. But this gentleman is not a newbie. I think we should evaluate ourselves, and then looked down at our feet, and see whose shoes we are wearing.
Pastor Carl
I've killed several elk .... 7 I think ... none with traditional. They die pretty darn quick if hit right. I'll also say they're tough as nails if hit wrong.
A guy I know hit an elk with archery tackle (compound) and it struck the outside of the last rib, quartered up on the outside, into the top of the shoulder and came to rest in the back of the neck area. 1 1/2 GPS miles and they found that bull bled out - dead.
If I were archery hunting bulls this fall, I'd be taking my 54# Zipper recurve, and an arrow combo that flies best out of that bow. I'm thinking a 650 +/- grain total weight carbon weighted shaft with a 130 gr No Mercy single bevel broadhead (steel inserts)
And I'd shoot bulls at 1 yard to 45 yards or something like that, feeling the shot as it comes and making the decision when its there. I've passed some dandy whitetails at less than 10 yards, shot at others at 25-30
Very well put Carl!
Carl...he asked for our advice, and that is mine. He can take it, along with my credentials and the others who opined, for what it is worth. I'll make my arguments with anybody...and I can back them up with the experiences too. Sites like this exist for the "newbies" to learn from. Sometimes advice is not necessarily what one might want to hear...does that mean I should "sugar coat" it for anyone. NO WAY!
We all make our mistakes in life and bowhunting. I've made mine, and I'm sure you've made yours. Frank can take the info on here, from the thread he started, and sort it out for himself. A very regal game animals life may depend on it....and his experience with the same - that he takes home with him and shares with everybody that asks "How was your hunt" will be colored by it. He has plenty of experience as a bowhunter....but bowhunting with trad is just what I said, a challenge, and that is precisely why we take it up. If it is about just killing an elk....use a rifle!
Why would anyone, when setting upon a journey that already takes such introspection....trad bowhunting...and the practice and work that goes into it, not do the job right. As hunters we owe it to the game. As bowhunters who care about the future, our actions are being closely watched. I would not go hunting with a selfbow that I thought "might" kill an animal, and "might" break, or might not. I would want to know that I would have adequate equipment, and take adequate shot choices and not leave those things that I could control to chance in such instances....whether it be whitetails or elk or rabbits for that matter.
Trad bowhunting IS about challenges, and how else do we know what our limits are without the challenge. There is nothing negative about knowing what your up against...in fact, it helps one to overcome the obastacles. Frank will do OK...if he has a mind to. In fact he is the better for asking. Do you doubt that?
This isn't about arogance, I assure you. But I think that lately there has been a rash of poor advice and poor choices on here and on other trad bow sites. I know that it comes with the new people that are drawn to our sport...but they are drawn to it for a reason, and it ain't because it is easy. Learning curves are fine....but when an animals life depends on your choices...and you ask, I am gonna tell you like I see it.
I mean no disrespect to new folks in this sport at all....but I do care about where it is going, and I want to see it stay around for awhile, and this site is a great place to ask questions and get good answers....in a respectful manner, too. But there is also a lot of good intentioned folks that are giving marginal advice...and passing off for truth what really is conjecture and gossip. Get the facts, and do the work before you take on the challenges...and be the better for it. That's dedication...and that's traditional bowhunting.
Mark Baker...I have only hunted elk one time(last September) and I totally agree with your post.
I believe it is unethical and pure nonsense for a traditional bowhunter to try to hunt with less bow weight than he or she can accurately shoot. Not accurately shoot for 5 hours each practice session, accurately shoot 45 minutes or so each time. If not, I feel the hunter is leaving too much on the table as far as unused ability and resources. I think that is just wrong.
If a hunter has to ask the question "Is my bow too light to hunt elk with?" Then YES it is. Usually that question is coming from someone who wants to see what they can just "get by with" rather than "how much can I pull(maximizing my resources) to increase my chances of making a clean kill...with traditional equipment.
As I have mentioned in previous posts, it seems that so many trad guys are forgetting that the bow and arrow is an extremely lethal weapon to pursue game with not just a portable piece of furniture to shoot 3-D.
Richie
once again guys thanks for all the help. Mark baker could not have sais it any better. when i dont no something i ask so i can be a better hunter. i went to trad because i was looking for more challenge. i have done very well at the aminals i have hunted & now its time to move onto a new venther. guys all have geat & save hunts. ps sorry guys for some of the spelling i will abmit that i stink at it.
QuoteOriginally posted by frank the hunter:
hi everyone i am going on my first elk hunt.wood you take a 30 yard shoot with a 50 pound long bow. i shoot out to 30 yard will, but dont no if it wii kill that far.i am new to trad started about 7 mounts ago. i took a doe at about 25 yards this past hunting season. thank you guys & have a great day.
He's not in the woods, his Arrow is not nocked, he is not a full draw, there is no elk standing in front of him.
He asked if you would take a 30 yd. shot with a 50 lb. bow. That's all, he did not clarify if it was the elk was broadsided, if it was quartering away, if it was a downward shot, if the elk was laying down. Just would you take a 30 yd. shot with a 50 lb. bow. I don't think anyone answered that question !
And since it's a political year, the music was playing and the feet were moving. But no one answered the question.
I would have to say yes, if I was capable, and confident, and efficient with a 50 lb. bow. Yes I would take the shot, provided the animal was not looking at me, and was distracted, most of all relaxed.
Would I take any shots closer than 30 yd., he asked, most definitely, but the question was would it kill at 30 yd., no one expounded on the position of the elk, when I read that thread they gave me the impression that 50 lbs. was definitely a very limited, minimal, poundage for elk hunting, I disagree, I would hunt elk was a 50 lb. bow.
No one mentioned the skills of the man, because he did not expound upon his talent. Don't get me wrong Mark, I understand your commitment, I understand your passion for hunting properly, ethically, I am not challenging that at all. I admire that you stand up for what you believe is right. I was just trying to get a point across that we do not know anything else about him and his skills until he told us.
I'll help you understand more on were I am coming from;
I have a box in the corner my office I brought home last night. because at the bow shop, we received a shipment in, of compound bows, I brought the box home, it's for a Black Ice Bowtech compound bow I purchased last year.
I brought it home to box it up, so that I do not have "crutch" to fall back onto when I start shooting my new "whip" because I can't stand failure, I passed on 7 deer this year, one was a beautiful chocolate buck, 6 pointer, I would have loved to take him, but the rules did not allow me, I was hunting on somebody else's land, I know how to follow rules, I know how to follow my heart, and there is consequences when you follow the rules, or when you break them, you live with those choices for the rest your life, because they stick in your mind one way or another, either to haunt you, or to bless you the rest your days. And that is what traditional archery is about.
Rules and regulations that a man sets in his heart, not from others, not from a book, not from the best video out there. If the man can't make those choices in his heart, he dare not step into the woods. I have people that will hunt with me, because they know that when it comes down to the point of taking a shot, they can trust that I will make a good one, or I won't make one at all. I guess what I'm trying to tell you is I understand your commitment. I was just trying to get others to see the whole thing from his side. It's what I do for living, some people think it's a bad habit, some people think it's good. Those that think it's a bad habit, will think again when they find out their decision was wrong.
But then it will last for eternity. Not just a moment on a thread.
I'm sorry if I offended you, I would rather stand up next to a man that knows his heart, then one that is just along for the ride.
Pastor Carl
Frank,
If you are capable of making a clean shot at 30 yds with your equipment then by all means go for it. Your bow is more than enough to do it. Truth is..you equipment is deadly well past 30 yds...even on elk!!! Take a range finder and be absolutely sure of the distance and do what you know you are capable of.
Brett
I agree that the equipment could be boarderline.....don't know, never shot an elk.
Some 60# bows of yesteryear are now today's 50# bows. A 50# HH is not the same as a 50# MOAB (not knocking HHs BTW) IF I shot that weight bow, I'd make sure I had a 650 grain sharp sharp sharp 2 blade. I will say I'd feel a lot better shooting 55# and better at 60#s.
Yeah, I can shoot 60#s just as accurate for 6 hours, while standing on one leg - whistling dixie - in the pouring rain - after midnight - during a full moon. Just kidding. ;)
As far as the shot distance, wow, lots of gavels being dropped. I've shot plenty of 90-100 pound doe at twenty yards, so I don't see a problem with me shooting an elk at 30. 1/3rd longer shot and 3 times bigger vitals.....just don't see the problem.
If I was 'into the hunt' like I normally get, I wouldn't know if the elk was 25 or 35 yards if the light turned green as JC said. I don't run around with a tape measure, nor do I expect myself to go into some range gauging guesstimate when I need to be immersed in aiming and executing the shot when window of opportunity opens. Nor do I need someone along to tell me when its OK to shoot.
If you are confident in your shooting, then you gotta make the shot when you feel ist right, and pass when its wrong. Who am I to make that decision for you? You have your own inner voice, and its usually right....if you'll just listen to it.
Have fun!!!
"If you are confident in your shooting, then you gotta make the shot when you feel ist right, and pass when its wrong. Who am I to make that decision for you? You have your own inner voice, and its usually right....if you'll just listen to it."
Well said Terry & Brett
Pastor Carl
I have shot elk. I have seen the gamut- a compound hunter I was in camp with had a five yard shot at a 350 bull, uphill, steep angle, and bounced his carbon speed demon arrow off the side of the bull.
I've seen experienced traditional bowhunters shoot the dirt between a herd bull's legs at 10 yards.
I've seen a compound shooter hit a bull at 50 yards dead in the goodie box and it went 15 yards and dropped.
It sounds to me like you have a lot of experience shooting animals- I think you will be OK, with a 10-12 grain per lb of draw arrow with a really sharp two blade head: pick your shot, make it good and you should be OK.
You are near bottom of the acceptable range of bow weight...I've had a guy I built arrows for shoot an elk with a 44 lb @ 28 straight limbed longbow- I paired him up with some danish oil soaked cedars and 135 grain Zwickeys to get his arrow weight up to get the maximum energy from the bow and it worked very well- because he did not hit bone.
There's some good advice and some bad advice in this thread because it mirrors life. Some folks know, others think they know, and others just want to 'get in the game'.
Take it for what its worth, trust your feelings, and do what makes you happy, and obviously respect the life of the game you're chasing enough to be honest with yourself at the moment of truth...life's too short, friend.
Doeboy wrote: "Are whitetails any less of an animal" than an elk?" In the sense I was talking about, they are in fact on average 3/4 less the animal. The distinction I was making had nothing to do with relative value of an animal's life, but physical size and toughtness and what sort of gear it takes to consistently penetrate and kill them humanely, even with a less-than-perfect shot. I've lived and hunted and guided elk country for nearly 30 years, and it's an unavoidable and far too obsdrvable a truth that All hunters consistently wound and lose way too many elk -- rifles, all types bows, and the worst are blackpowder. Some of this is because some people always shoot first and think later, if at all. but a major cause of the excessive wounding rate on elk by well-intended ethical hunters is optimism that the gear that works well for them on deer will "be enough" for elk as well. Too often, it is not. Consequently, to encourage such optimism is not only disrespectful to our prey, but leads to a lot of disappointment among hunters when they find out the heartbreaking way. Exceptions don't make a rule. If you examine the group of questions Frank asked about -- bow weight, long shooting distance, and a suggestion of light arrows (no mention of broadheads) -- and add them together, we do NOT have a high-odds gear setup for elk. Possible, of course. Something to encourage? No. The good news, even with our disagreements, is that at least we seriously discuss these things and those of us with concerns are allowed (for the most part)to air them for consideration. Meanwhile, the Moon Unit training-wheelers just go glumly along shooting 350-grain toothpics with frail mechanical heads at 300fps at almost any animal they see at any range. THAT is where the majority of elk wounding by bowhunters comes from, not from us.
As far as distance is concerned- an 800 + lb elk at 30 yards has a larger kill zone than a 150 lb whitetail at 20 yards.What should limit your range is your skill at that distance.
dave2old i rspecet what you say but i am the most ethical hunter you will ever see. i have past on white tails in the 180" were at 20 yards away just because i did not feal good about the shoot. belive me i wood have no problem with taking a 30 yard shoot & hitting the mark, just was not shore of the bow. and for the broad head 2 blade magnus 125 grain with insert total about 150 grains.i wood only take the shoot if the amial is broad side. thanks again everyone & god bless you all.
I have two simple rules when it comes to elk killing equipment. First, if you can consistently place 6 arrows in a 8inch paper plate at thirty yards and the elk is broadside and you feel good about it, take the shot. Secondly, a 650+ grain broadhead/arrow combo topped with a single blade broadhead is an incredible killing instrument on an elk. When things go bad, and they will from time to time, a heavy arrow will do the animal justice. I personally believe that a 50 lb bow is a tad to small for killing elk, especially at thirty yards. Now I know of plenty of bowhunters who have killed elk with 50 and less lb bows. Still, elk are larger game and they deserve heavier equipment. If a 50 lb bow is all you can muster, than practice self discipline and keep your shoots to less than twenty yards. T
I say go get em' Frank and have fun doing it. If the shot is there, you will know it and take it and I bet will do well. With the hunting experience you have, you will know if and when the shot is right. You have all summer to practice and get everything lined out. Good luck this fall and be sure to get back on here and post some pics.
Rob
QuoteOriginally posted by Dave2old:
Meanwhile, the Moon Unit training-wheelers just go glumly along shooting 350-grain toothpics with frail mechanical heads at 300fps at almost any animal they see at any range. THAT is where the majority of elk wounding by bowhunters comes from, not from us.
Dave, You know that I have the greatest respect for you and your experience and expertise but, it sounds like that is just what you are encouraging Frank to do?
I have spoken with Frank at length on the phone about this upcoming hunt and I can assure you that he's is a very ethical and experienced hunter with many deer and bear kills. He is very aware of his responsibility and very much an ethical hunter. Frank has a great apreciation of the value of every animal's life. Ask him about letting a PY brown bear walk at less than 10 paces because he wasn't comfortable with the shot presented. He also practices his shooting for too many hours every day and is keenly aware of what his effective range is. This is not a "poke and hope" hunter/shooter.
Frank's motivation in switching to trad gear is not unlike that of many of us "converts". He enjoys the hunt itself as much or more than the kill, he's tired of his training wheels and wants to advance.
After talking to him a few times I can tell you without any reservation that Frank will make an excellant addition to the trad comunity.
Perhaps the answers to his question might have been different if he had asked: Is a 50 lb bow in the hands of a thoroughly experienced hunter/shooter capable of killing an elk at 30 yards?
No disrespect intended,
-Ron
There is a factor that counts a whole whole lot; and that is the ability to take a shot.
Oh yeah; there is a whale of a difference between holding back a compound with a release aid; and pulling a trigger... and shooting a traditional bow.
But the thing that makes the shot perfect is the shooter: over everything.
Frank has killed a lot of game; turned down shots on game; he knows when to let go of the arrow; and where to aim.
His chances of 'buck fever' are way less than most people regardless of the weapon used.
My late Uncle Dan; who was a rifle hunter- once sighted in his gun; and made the foolish mistake of letting me near it. I put a blank round in it; and when he pulled the trigger; the end of that gun went up in the air; and he fell over backwards off the bench he was on. He rarely missed a deer; but it seems he did his shooting with a bit of tension in his system to deal with.
Frank seems to be able too- to pull off shots on game.
That means a lot a whole lot.
I once had a neat ambush setup on an elk trail; and as I approached it; an elk walked out in front of me. It was a huge bull. I was totally in the open and he just stared at me. For well over an hour he just stared at me. He finally moved and I had a shot; but I could not pull my bow back. Not even an inch.
I was a great shot with that recurve and had taken a LOT of animals with it; but I couldn't draw back the bow at all.
My adrenaline burned me out.
I have taken great shots at close range and far range; but I have missed at 6 feet.
I think the ability to take a shot at a live animal counts more than a kazillion perfect shots at targets.
I seem to remember a world champion with a bow that missed a buck completely at 20 yards.
If you have a 90 pound bow with 900 grain arrows; and can neuter a gnat with it at 50 yards; there is not one bit of guarantee you could hit an elk or a deer at 10 yards.
Its not about the strength of the bow; the weight of the arrow; the range; as much as it is the ability to make a shot when it counts.
If Frank has made all the shots he says he has; then I think he is a qualified candidate to shoot a 50 pound bow at an elk.
NOBODY knows whats going to happen when they shoot 100% of the time; yep 99% perhaps - but not 100%. I often will draw back and then let up and not shoot if I just don't feel the shot is right.
Then too; I have made some classic misses. I can miss as well as anyone. Not bragging [sic]; just stating the facts.
What makes me feel qualified to use my bow is my experience; and my ability to shoot; and I am still working on that. I have taken many black bears and still don't believe I am ready for a brown or grizzly bear.
If Frank knows himself; and when to shoot; and what to aim at; and how sharp to keep his broadheads; then only he knows if he can take a shot; and the bow is enough to take an elk if he does.
Geesh.
Pastor Carl summed up what I was trying to say. I thought this sight was all about friendship and a family community? I guess constructive criticism is what you get when you ask the wrong questions....just my 2 cents from New Jersey.....
And unfortunately some destructive.
Agreed!
There is one thing I would like to add to this discussion for yall to ponder: Frank's 50 lb bow is probably more lethal at 30 yds than at 3 yds.
Why??? Because from 0 yds to say....10 yds his arrows are still recovering from paradox which will greatly affect penetration. By the time his arrow gets out to 30 yds it should have stabilized and should be sailing along quite nicely and will blow through an elk easily, assuming a broadside hit and a 2 bladed BH. Of course this is also contigent upon his setup being well tuned. Add to this the fact that an elk at close range is more likely to react at the instant of the shot than if it were farther away. So...an arrow recovering from paradox + a moving tensed up elk = poor penetration. And that applies to any weight bow!!!
So what the heck am I try'n to say??? Let's say...hypothetically....that if Frank is good enough to make say....a 100 yd shot on an elk with his 50 lb longbow and he had to arc his arrow through the sky such that by the time the arrow reached the elk it was at a 45 degree angle and was more or less falling out of the sky at terminal velocity and, most importantly, the nock end of his arrow was following directly behind the point end....I guarantee you it will zip right through the rib cage of that elk...rib or no ribs!!!! Excuse me please...but I think that was the gist of his original question....whether or not his setup was sufficient for a 30 yd shot on a elk. Nothing at all to do with the whys, wherefores or ethics taking such a shot. That's his business.
Whadaya think???
Brett
Good post Brett
Very will said Brett,
If a man is not ruled by his heart, his head will not help him !
Pastor Carl
Pastor Carl,
I have never read such a good post as your earlier post on this thread. You made a great point we should all live by. "I think we should evaluate ourselves, and then looked down at our feet, and see whose shoes we are wearing."
May I use that at my fire station?? (seriously)I want to post it on the door to my office!
Brett your point is very good as well.
Past that I will stay out o this one! it is an educational thread though so I hope it doesn't get whacked???? perty please. LOL
Jason
You are more than welcome to Jason, and I have to agree with you, this is an educational thread, both about people and their convictions, and their commitment to the animals they hunt. But hopefully both of these lessons come together and gives them more understanding about who created both. Every personality, and every talent, is given to us for reason, may we accomplish it.
Pastor Carl
I'm lost here can soime one explain to me how limiting your shot distance is some how pushing someone into using a compound?
Isn't that a personal choice? Isn't that what I keep reading it is up to the shooter to decide(what a an effective range is)? If that is so then so is choice of weapon. A 50# bow can kill from much farther than 30 yards.
Folks with lots of experience have said limit yourself to 20 yards, other have said shoot whatever distance you want and somehow this has become a discussion on pushing someone into a compound? Who cares? Use a rifle it has an even longer range, or choose to limit your range - all a personal choice. If frank looks at all this and chooses a compound - its his choice, if the chooses to go traditional and limit his shots to 40? 30? 20? yds. it's his choice. He asked for opinions and got many now it is his choice.
Frank, where are you going elk hunting? Guided or non-guided? Just curiosity questions.
I can relate to your thought process, because when I first started elk hunting back in 1970 (or 71?) I worried about a deer rifle being enough gun for elk, and thought bow hunting them was impossible. Killed quite a few, so went to the wheel bow and killed three with it. Experience helps. Felt I was missing something, so in '81 went to a recurve, learned more about elk, missed a lot, killed some, but at the end of the recurve era had a total of six hours elk hunting in three years for three elk. Went to a longbow in '93, thinking to extend the seasons some. Didn't happen, still had short seasons. Frank, the point of this is that you're probably a skilled hunter who has turned a page. Take your longbow elk hunting and use your experience.
thanks mark. just what you said, is why a am going with the long bow. i am going with pioneer out fitters. thanks again mark, have a great day & hunt saft.
Okay FrankfromNewYork, I read the other boys post and its now time for my 2cents, IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHERE YOUR ELK IS FROM! Sit back on this :campfire: and take note. Here in Arizona,#50 LB, nope. Story #1. On can't remeber the date at approximately 0600 hours I was dispatch to whack an elk. I arrived on scene at milepost 183.3 on westbound Interstate 40 and observed a freakin huge bull with his legs taken out by the 80,000 lb. 5 axle parked down the road with the driver scratch'n his head looking at the smashed frontend. I take the trusty 12 gag.pump out walk up and boom, put the pump back in the rack, Holy Smokes! He's back up. I am sad for the elk and myself,because I have to pull a DR, write a report and clean the weapon. Another slug,boom, start to drive off and NOWAY! He's back up! I check the sights to see if I bump them.They are fine, Boom #3. I check and sure enough, three big holes. Our elk are super tough. Now a #50 stick on a AZ. elk. NOPE.
Now a Montana elk, Yeah. Due to our lack of trout here in AZ. I had plenty of looks at Montana elk. I think your better off hunting our famous Jackalope than a Montana elk. They taste better and your hunting boys will surely drop their jaw more so than any Montana elk as they walk past in your dead-head-room. I think the Jackalope have a bigger score in the P&Y than those scrany Montana elk.
Colorado: I also seen the elk up there. Since we can not get drawn in our own state, we see alot of Colorado elk. #50 stick in CO., nope! Here is why. They climb freak'n mountains that you need a ski lift to get up! Tough as nails! Arrows would bounce off. Those boys, dave2old and Mr.Durango hunt them elk over the mountain next to Mancos. They are pen-up and they give them the Clemmons juice(you know that NY pitcher)racks like a catus and body like the hulk.It could be the Bond juice also. Now a #50 stick/longbow may be okay if your lost, tie a fish'n line up to it and catch some trout. There is a wheely bow CO. starts with an M makes good ones for that.
BUT; if you are using one of those O.L.Adcock's, send it to me and I will test it till next fall and let you know. I hope this helps put thing is place for you.
thanks highcountry for the help. might take that fishen poll bow that starts with M. sorry but i love ny M bow. had a high country, but did not like it. thanks again for the help. i love trad & wish i could pull more weight, but i cant. have a great day.
Frank, I was jus playing, never shot an "M" longbow yet. Messing with the CO. & MT. guys too, cabin fever you know, not joking about that! :scared:
(http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l182/highcountry_photos/P2230274.jpg) living room view of mountain? (http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l182/highcountry_photos/P2230269.jpg)
Frank,
Ask yourself these questions:
1)Why are you switching to a longbow?
2)Why did I asked the question I did?
3)How many deer have I killed with this 50# bow?
Answers:
1) The challenge.
2) Because deep down I have doubts.
3) ?
So be honest with yourself and keep it under 20!
thanks guys. i will keep it under 20 yards. have a great day.