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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: broketooth on September 20, 2010, 09:06:00 PM
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this is something ive been working on for about the past 4 months. ive been taking my time but its something ive always wanted was a 2 piece take down long bow. shaping has been slow, but ive been following shawns build-a-long for the same project. this bow has a natural deflex. to me it is in the young stages of floor tiller. i dont want to lose the deflex, but i dont want to much set . i think i need some help.i really dont want to screw this up.the following pics i think are the best i could come up with do give you an idea of what im dealin with. all opinions welcome negative or positive thanks for lookin ruddy
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry005.jpg)
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry004.jpg)
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry007.jpg)
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that pic was a little out of order due to technical diffaculties (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry001.jpg[/IM[IMG]http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry006.jpg)G]
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im having photobucket issues be back soon
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From what I see it looks good so far, Ruddy. Can't wait to see the rest!!!
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I am building one of these as well and noticed you did the same thing I did. I trimmed the wood to the smaller internal sleeve without thinking. I have since glued on a little wood for my "mistake" and trimmed the wood to the outer sleeve with the two parts fitted together.
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttr[IMG]http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry006.jpg)y008.jpg[/IMG]
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry002.jpg)
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry008.jpg)
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry009.jpg)
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sorry about not rotating the pic. i hope nobody snapped their neck (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2piecetakedownfirsttry010.jpg)
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mr eric, both halves of the stave have a small 2" brass sleeve that fit inside the steel sleeve.i used 2 part epoxy to glue the brass peices to the stave halves. the mistake that i made is when i was shaping the bow. i think i pinched the sleeve a little to hard in the vice. the limb that is in the steel sleeve now was supposed to be the bottom limb. i also think i went with a more simple design,basic pyramid design 1 1/2" wide@ the fades tapering to 5/8"@ the tips total length is 64"
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Some sleeves have two brass components. The one I built just had one, so the lower limb is glued directly into the steel sleeve.
My sleeves started out tight, then got too loose so I built it back up with JB weld and re-fit them. My wood was wet I think, then shrunk when it dried and believe it or not took the brass with it (as it has not separated from the sleeve that I could tell. It has held up fine, although I ain't looked at the bow in several years. When they suck up moisture and get tight it can be a real peach to get them apart. Worse yet, in the very dry winter if too loose they'll kinda click on you early in the draw.
Looks like you are off to a great start.
Why do you not want to loose the deflex?
It's not as bad as set, but it does nothin for the performance of the bow, at least not in the form that limb has. Ideally you'd put it on a caul or rig up some apparatus at this point, put some heat to each limb and clamp them into about 2" of nice even reflex. Then tiller that reflex back out, leaving a nearly straight bow.
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I see, mine had one brass and one metal sleeve so by timming one side to the brass I had a pretty big step down from the steel sleeve to the brass one.
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its been stated by howard hill " all things being equal, a string follow bow will be mor acurate" doesnt a deflex longbow qualify as a string follow bow without taking any set? ruddy
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With most osage bows if you start with 2" of reflex your bow will shoot in to even at best or a little string follow.
If you start with an inch of deflex your bow may have some serious string follow after it is shot in. It depends a lot on wood density, light wood lots of string follow, dense wood, not so much.
My current bow started with 3" of reflex(heated in) before tillering, after thousands of shots it has 1" of string follow now. Shoots real sweet.
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i understand what you're saying mr eric, and i stand corrected. is there any way you can post a pic of the bow your workin on? its cool if you post it on this thread , i mean we're both workin the same project, ruddy
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update... ive been able to work a little bit on this project. for those who know about the little something special i have planned for this bow ssshhhhhh. ive been doing some shaping and more floor tiller work and was just wondering about the looks of my progress positive and negetive comments welcome. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry001.jpg)lower limb fade (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry002.jpg)total lower limb.
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upper limb fade (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry003.jpg)total upper limb (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry009.jpg)
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Ruddy, you have become quite the bowyer since we first met at Hickory a few years ago. This looks like it is gonna be a very special bow. Looking forward to seeing her when she is done. Keep us posted!
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mr pat, i sure do appreciate it. its hard for me to work on osage im using a dust mask now when i work on it. before the mask it would make me feal terrible im also taking frequent breaks. beleive me i want to finish it soon but i know i nee to take my time. upper fade side profile (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry011.jpg)total upper limb side profile (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry012.jpg)
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lower limb side profile (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry013.jpg)total lower limb side profile (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry014.jpg)
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That is going to be good one for sure. Cant waite to see her finished.
Kelly
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Good lookin' bow, Ruddy. Osage is a gorgeous wood. I love the grain and character of your stave.
Stan
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Lets see her bend Ruddy! Having her all dressed up ain't no good if she can't dance! d;^)
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well mr pat, you asked me for a few pics on the tiller tree. so i came up with this (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry016.jpg)this is the bow @ rest. the grid is 6' wide. 3' to the center. the grid is 3"x 3" squares. 3 is a prime number and easy to work with.every thing is level, and plumb. as you can see in the pic i have some deflex to heat out (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry019.jpg)this pic is getting the limbs to move 3" on the long string with tiller boots. tell me what ya think. ruddy
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I got to see this bow Ruddy is working on, up close and personal, Thursday before we went hunting (or freezing - LOL). This is going to be a beauty of a bow, IMO. I was real impressed as soon as I saw it resting in his bench vice. Even more impressed after handling it and watching him show me his floor tiller progress. If he keeps going as he is, this'un is going to be a real "Doosey". I bet it will shoot sweet too. Keep up the good work, Rudy.
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One suggestion for you Ruddy. Make a shorter tillering string out of para cord. Mine has a slip knot on each end and I cut shallow temporary nocks in the limb tips; just enough to hold the string. When it comes time to finish the tips the temporary nock grooves will be removed and the final ones added. The long tiller string should be just long enough to go over the tips and be slack. With a longer tillering string like you have you pull the tips almost straight down. With the shorter string you pull the tips more inward like with a short string. This early on in the process it isn't so critical but soon it will make a big difference.
So far things are looking fine. Like I told you on the phone last evening all of the leverage is on the inner limbs so care has to be taken not to remove too much wood from the fades and just out past them. Once you get your limbs bending a bit more, evenly and together you can work back into the fades to get them bending with the rest.
Try to overlook the deflex in the limbs for now. Concentrate on getting each limb bending evenly. When you get to 8"or 10" of tip movement and everything looks good, go to a low brace height of about 3". Then you will be able to see how the string tracks and if the limbs are infact bending evenly and together. Until then you are just removing wood to get the limbs to bend.
Also remember you are not building a Swiss watch. This is just a piece of wood that you are trying to get to bend evenly. You can easily over thing the process and that can be as detrimental than underthinking.
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i did what you suggested mr pat. i filed some temp shallow nocks . and a shorter long string . i also had to drill a new hole for my peg due to the shorter long string. is this better (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry020.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry021.jpg). ruddy
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Start scraping near the 4th vertical line on the left limb and the 3rd on the right limb.
How thick is each limb now? Scribe a line about 1/8" below the belly but parallel to the back on each side of the limbs and bevel from that line to the center of the belly(making a facet) then flatten the belly again, exercise the limbs(only short, 2" to 3" pulls for now)after each wood removal session. Your limb thickness will eventually taper from fades to tips so think about that as you remove wood but don't over do it. You still have a long way to go.
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Now you're logging, Ruddy - you can't get a better "guide" than Pat is - just make sure you understand exactly what he is telling you before "doing" it - LOL. (He already knows what he means when he is saying something - we just have to make sure we know what he means - LOL) I am glad you are in touch with and talking to him. As I've told you before, he has all the good stuff in his headbone, and is always willing to help.
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Hey, I resemble that remark Bernie! d;^)
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LOL - I know, I know, Pat - but you know I am a firm supporter of your abilities and knowledge. At least with Ruddy, when you impart something to him, he can remember it, while I'm lucky to remember stuff from minute to minute - let alone when I lay off for a year or so :D
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Bernie, the boat I'm in ain't too far from the boat you are in. Now, what were we talking about...and who is Ruddy?
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:laughing: thats pretty funny pat and bernie. mr pat , i did what ya told me and made a 1/8 mark down from the belly on both sides of both limbs and i scribed a mark down the center of the belly of both limbs. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry026.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry025.jpg)
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i also scraped wood away to the lines on each limb. i started at the point on each limb like you had told me earlier. i checked it on the tree and im showing significant limb movement especially on the limb with character which would be on the right (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry027.jpg)
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now work from the 3rd vertical line out on the left limb and between the second and third lines on the right limb. Leave the the fades and out to those lines alone for now. Get more bending out both limbs. The left one will be a pest because of the reflex on the last 1/3 of the limb. Take care there as to not take too much off. Exercise plenty after each wood removal. You need to get to about 8" of tip mivement and then go to a low brace. When we see how the string tracks it might be time for some heating, removing the deflex and adding even reflex to both limbs.
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Neat, "watching" this (on a rainy day and night) transpire. Keep on keepin' on, guys. :thumbsup:
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Sorry guys, maybe it's just me, but is there a hinge developing on the left limb, pretty much right at the riser? I would say between the second and 3rd verticals on your left limb. Or is that natural character? I like the 2 piece idea tho, very beautiful choice for a stave too. Keep the pics and results coming.
Jon
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There is a little natural deflex right there near that fade. That's why I suggested he work out from that area for now.
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i did some more work on both limbs today i started on the left limb first. i did 20 scrapes at a time and checked it on the tree. between each session i exercised the limbs 100 pulls. i did a total of 4 sessions on the left limb alone. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry028.jpg) i worked on the right limb some, only 2 sessions so far 20 scrapes at a time. and exercised the limbs 100 reps between sessions (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry029.jpg). i worked the areas that pat had told me and im starting to see that the limbs are starting to work together just a bit. what do y'all think. ruddy
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Scrape some out beyond the 3rd vert line on the left limb and full length on the right.
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i hope i wasnt to early for this mr pat but i think i got bold and went to the short string. i think i need to file the temp nocks a little deeper though. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry030.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry031.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry032.jpg)
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Looking even better with each session, Rudy, to these ol' eyes - and our friend Pat has the good eye and advice on your efforts - can't beat that with a big (Osage) stick - LOL You're doing good work and nice, slow, and easy, buddy - the way I like to work a bow.
Next time I make a bow I plan to set up shop right on Pat's door steps, from start to finish ;)
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From this angle the braced bend looks good, Ruddy. No sudden surprises! d;^)
Trace where the string tracks now on the nock and follow that line to make your string fit the nock better. How does the string track from tip to tip?
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i traced the string where it contacted the belly and filed in better nocks (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry034.jpg)and this is how the string tracks mr pat i dont think its too bad. right now its braced at 3" (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry036.jpg)
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(http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry035.jpg) this is just another pic of the tracking sorry about the string silencers.
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Looks right down the center to me. Now start reducing weight til you get what and where you want to be. Still work in incriments and exercise the bow after wood removal. Once I get to low brace I like to "sweat" the bow by leaving it strung starting with about 15 minutes. As the draw gets longer and the weight reduced I leave it braces longer to at final full draw it sometimes stays braced for 4 hours or so. This replicates keeping your bow braced while hunting or at the 3D range.
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That's some neat tracking going on there. Getting to the fine points now - that pretty Osage "stick" will become a bow before you know it, now, Rudy. Be careful - they can sneak up on ya over night - :eek: LOL
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i really appreciate alll the advice and support! this like heading into dark unknown territory with a weak flashlight :scared:
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Rudy, you have the difficult parts beat and heading towards a very cool bow.
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Rudy she is looking good, your flashlight is brighter than mine!
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LOL - Yep, like Kelly, I think your flashlight is holding up pretty well, bud. Good job on the pics for us too.
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ive been out chasin critters the past few days so work on this has been slow. another factor that has slowed me a little is ive stopped using steel tools of any kind . ive noticeted a trend here as of late that a lot of fellas have been using sandpaper to tiller.. im also see what mr eric krewson was talking about , natural deflex starting to take some set.i also see pat b's point of waiting to do final heat treatments to heat in reflex before final tiller. here is what i have so far the bow at rest (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry038.jpg) im still using a long string on the tree, i have to admit im still nervous of the short string on the tree (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry037.jpg)let me know what ya think. ruddy
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well thats way cool ruddy much better than my 7 blowups so i stopped buying wood. might have another go some time. keep it comming its looking good. :clapper:
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Looks pretty even to me, Ruddy - so far, so good. Every time I got nervous I leaned more toward either scraping with a stout knife (Kbar, etc.) or back of a piece of industrial hacksaw blade (I think I have a couple extra of those pieces - I'll check), or sandpaper. Nothing wrong with that, IMO, to keep your nerves in check. However, don't let it bulldoze you. Though no one wants to lose one (stave/bow), especially at this stage (when things are looking so good), it is still just a piece of wood you are turning into a bow. It is not your boss - make it your partner if you can but stay in control. Just like you do on the cabinets you build. Keep on keepin' on, buddy!
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I do still have those (aprox. 12" long) pieces of Industrial Hacksaw (machine) blades. Actually, I knew I had them somewhere - it was just a case of could I remember where I put them and/or find them again - :D You are welcome to one (or two). They are a little over an inch from back to teeth. I cover the teeth with a couple or three wraps of good ol' duct tape (could be ground off), and they act just like a furniture/cabinet scrapper. (You also can use them to make a thin/fillet knife blade out of too.) BTW, I also received that Christmas present Osage Bow I told you about and, when you get to see it, there are a lot of good visual examples of how the bowyer ("Stiks-n-Strings") worked over, and around, knots and pin-knots - (it isn't named "One Eye" for no reason ;) ). Might ease your mind some in that area too - just a thought. I'm not that far away.
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cool bernie, i cant wait to check it out.mabe we can get together soon. we'll have to work something out. ruddy
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Ruddy, I'd think that trying to complete tiller with sand paper will be more furstrating than with a scraper. If you take your time(I know you will do that) and think about each scrape you will get things working well. Take 10 scrapes from each limb, exercise and check tiller. Adjust your scrapes depending on how the last batch worked out and go again.
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That is comming along nicely. :clapper:
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I'd have to agree with Pat about (the frustration part of) using sandpaper. Been there, done that - and usually wound up going back to scrapers of some kind. I like to go slow but I do get antsy when nuttin' seems to be happening/changing - and then that can get you in trouble at just the wrong time - Oooops LOL.
We can get together most anytime, Ruddy (as long as it isn't to freezzzzzz - LOL).
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With a good scraper you can either go gingerly and remove a tissue thin piece of wood or hunker down and remove a stiff curl or somewhere in between. That has to be worked out by the bowyer for each situation.
When I talked to Ruddy this morning I also told him about not only scraping with the blade perpendicular to the stave but also at a 45deg(mol)angle from the right and left to help prevent the washboard effect you will get from just using the scraper perpendicular to the stave.
When building a bow I mostly use a scraper from floor tiller to completion. By doing so it slowed me down enough so I had time to think what I was doing and where I was going. The closer you get to tiller the more thoughtful each wood removal has to be.
Ruddy, you said on the phone anout it developing a bit of twist. Check limb thickness from side to side alone each limb. If one side is a little thicker than the other it will usually twist. By making the limb thickness even you can eliminate the twist. I use my thumb and fore finger as a thickness gauge by lightly pinching the wood between my fingers and sliding along and across the limbs. You will be amazed how much better you can feel a change as compared to trying to eyeball it.
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mr pat , i appreciate the conversation we had on the phone this a.m. it dispelled a few mysteries that i had of using steel tools through the tiller process. i am however exercising extreme caution at this point and trying not to excede the speed limit for lack of a better term. ive been exercising the bow inbetween scraping sessions. at this point im to 4 1/2" brace (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry039.jpg). ive had to make a modification to my treeclamp, to make it easier to place the bow in the tree during brace. this is the bow at 15" draw on the tree (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry041.jpg). i can see im starting to get more bend. at this point i have just exercised the limbs 100 reps to 15" draw. thanks for lookin
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oh i forgot to mention i was advised to go back to the short string which i have done. the character limb is to the right, as has been through the entire build. im also seeing that i need more bend at mid limb towards the tip in the character side i have to study it more myself but what do y'all see. ruddy
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A little more off the right limb between vert line #3 through #8. Looking good though. What is the weight at 15"?
You should stay with that string and brace height until colser to final tiller then go to full brace height. For me that is about 5 1/2", my fistmele.
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i have no idea of the draw weight , mr pat. i still dont have a pulley and i dont have that kind of scale i guess i need to get up with batman so i can use his tree and scale for a few days. im realizing that im getting close. im thinking i need to start paying close attention to a target weight and draw length from here until its finished. am i right? ruddy
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Come'n along nice...... :coffee: ... Take your time look at your progress and your gonna have a real nice hunting tool!!!
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I have one here in my carport also, Rudy, with the scales, rope, & pully, if you need to use it, or even borrow it to use at your place with your tree awhile. I'm not using it right at this time. I'll show you how i use it with mine (I keep it in a Tupperware bread saver when not in use) and then you can hook it up with yours real easy I would think. It makes everything a lot easier, especially the exercising of the bow (and safer for the bow - and the bowyer perhaps - LOL).
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i went to the hardware store this morning and bought a pulley that was rated to 100#. i attached it to the wall and rigged up some parachute cord woth a t-handle, and a latch so i could work the bow safely on the tree. i also made a short video of the limbs being worked to 15" draw. watch. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/th_IM000096.jpg) (http://s602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/?action=view¤t=IM000096.mp4)
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Ruddy, the left limb is stiff from mid limb out. Be careful at midlimb as to not get a hinge there. The right limb looks pretty good but needs a little off at the fade.
See how much better it works with the right set up! d;^)
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as im doing some scraping of the limbs and working it on the tree ive noticed ive lost 1/8" in brace from the 4 1/2" as im going through the tiller process do i need to check before going to the tree to make sure i stay at 4 1/2 by adjusting the string does the wood start to settle in or does this keep the wood from becoming too stressed before reaching final brace. when am i supposed to start increasing the draw length on the tree in concert with checking for target draw weight.
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As the limbs begin to bend together the draw length can be increase. You really need to check your draw weight to see where you stand with it. Don't worry about the loss of brace height. A few twists of the string will fix that but it isn't hurting anything for now. Remember this aint a Swiss watch or brain surgery.
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The video makes a nice (and handy) "graphic tool", Rudy - good on ya! BUT why are ya pickin' on "Jack" the purpdog??? He probably just wanted to "hep ya" - LOL
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hahaha lol i didnt realize there was sound to the vid. my dog jack was fixin to get his wiskers hung up in the pulley, he's too curious for his own safety sometimes. just too funny that you caught that bernie lol. ruddy
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You'll be so glad you took the time to rig the rope and pully (Jack, not so much, if he does get his whiskers caught - LOL). You can still borrow my Bow scale to use with it, you know. It just gives you that much more info on keeping track of your progress, and helps in the learning process - IMO. We're all pulling for you on this one, bud, and loving Pat's valuable input.
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i got the chance to work on this project some more. i see what you were talking about pat. i think the left limb ( the straight one) is showing signs of wanting to hinge. here are some pics. at rest (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry042.jpg). 15" draw (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry043.jpg). and the culpri pin knot i think is where the hinge is starting to form (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry044.jpg) this pin knot goes from back to belly. i also think i still need more work at the fade on the right limb. bernie i think i'll take you up on your offer to use your bow scale for a little while. it would definately be a help. ruddy
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Put a pencil mark across the left limb at the second vert line and another at the 4th line and lots of "X"s between the lines. This should keep you from taking any wood from that area. d;^)
A knot right in a hinge can result in frets so be careful with it until you have removed wood from both sides of where you mark to eliminate the hinge.
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Good, your certainly welcome to, Rudy
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its looking nice Ruddy :thumbsup:
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Let us know what the weight is at as soon as you get, it is looking good.
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ok did i miss something? im thinkin that i should have had a bow scale a long time ago. one of the other things im thinkin i should have done is heated in some reflex. before im at the point im at now.i visited with bernie today and he was kind enough to let me borrow his bowscale . come to find out, we did some tests while i was at bernie's that i have definately overshot the mark on draw weight. i will have som pics later, as i have done some expirimenting with raising the brace hieght some and drawing further than 15" what are some suggestions as far as increasing draw, im willing to sacrifice some draw length in the process i do have sinew and from what i understand if properly applied for each layer it does increase the draw weight by 5# a layer what are your thoughts. ruddy
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Ruddy, If your limbs are bending well at 15" pull them to 16". If good there go to 17", ETC until you get to full draw. You might want to exercise it a few times as you increase the draw to help "educate" the wood to bend.
How much short are you from your intended draw weight? You could easily loose 2" of length and that would increase the draw weight some. Also you can put it back on the reflex form and temper the belly as you add the reflex. Doing it again won't hurt anything.
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i did some more experimenting, i raised the brace to 5". i have not scraped or sanded this bow inbetween sessions. after raising the brace i brought the bow to 18" draw for 100 reps (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry046.jpg). then i gave the bow a rest restrung it and this is a pic after a draw session to 21" (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry047.jpg). i then gave the bow another rest restrung and this is a pic at 24" (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry048.jpg)at the 24" draw i measured 37 # :banghead: im sure this bow needs some fine tuning and quite a bit of it. i was shooting for 50-55#@28"draw do i have a chance. ruddy
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It is a sweet drawing bow, and looking just as good (if not better) than in the pictures. However it did surprise me that It seemed to be considerably lighter than either of us expected it to be. We discussed a lot of options that ruddy has, including some of the ones mentioned (pikeing, reheating, etc.). Like I told Ruddy, if worse comes to worse it looks to me like he will still wind up with a very nice bow, even if it winds up in a lady or youth weight class, and will be able to be proud of the job he's done on it. I think with the good advice of folks like Pat, etc., he still may come out OK and perhaps not too far off his desired weight in the end. Good luck in any case, Ruddy - and I enjoyed the visit and varied gab session we were able to share.
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i had to enlist the help of my wife so the pics arent exactly perpendicular to the camera. i appreciate her help, it wasnt exactly warm in the garage, the cold aint her cupof tea.
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Ahh, you posted some new pics while I was typing.
LOL - Been there, done that (where would any of us be without the occasional help of our good wives).
Dang - to these ol' eyes that tiller is really looking good at the longer draws on the tree, Ruddy.
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I always liked to think (depending on the bow) that it could be 2-3# of draw weight per inch. So Based on that if you're getting 37# @ 24" wouldn't you still be looking at from 45-49#@28"? Or am I thinking wrong. AND it isn't really fully exercised in or settled in yet.
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It looks good Ruddy. This is where I get confused, I mean I try to get a feel for the wood and don't want to over draw it but how do you hit the weight you want. Hopefully we will get the answer.
Merry Christmas,
Kelly
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Guys, as long as a bow is bending well at a certain draw length while tillering it can be drawn farther. There is nothing in the rule book that says you can't. So when you hit 15" and it is bending well, pull it farther and see how the bow reacts.
Ruddy, Looks like she needs to bend more in the outer 1/3 of the left limb. Right limb looks good. Tiller this bow out so you have nice bending limbs. Don't worry about the weight for now just work on tiller. When you have her tillered out then we can decide if she can be a 60" 50#@28" bow with piking and heat tempering and adding reflex.
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That sounds like an "answer" that we can put in our ditty bags, and take to the bank. Best part is it sounds like one that even I can remember - for when having that/this problem towards the final tillering. You're a good man, Pat, I don't care what those Bounty Hunters said ;)
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i have to admit, ive been nervous about getting the bow to bend. there are various pin knots in both limbs. i didnt want to cause a hinge in any of these spots. i also didnt want to get myself in a hurry, you know the " im really gonna take some wood off this time" syndrome.im realizing that there are certain risks that have to be taken to get to the next step in the process. im definately learning alot.its been a challenge just to remember each situation, im constintly questioning my judgement.ive also learning to see what everyone else is seeing in the bend of the limbs. im sure glad i have pat and bernie lookin over my shoulder. im gonna do some more work on it today. im sure i will have more questions to ask later, matter of fact i already do, but i will wait. so far im havin alot of fun. ruddy
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That enjoyment is the main thing, Ruddy - it's what keeps us all "coming back home" - LOL
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If you heat temper the belly be sure you leave it alone for a time and (DO NOT) touch it like someone I know did (LOL)
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Ruddy, when you walk up to a job site do you have to contemplate and fret about getting this new home framed in or do you take control and get-er-done?(rhetorical) After a few bows you will be able to walk up to a stave, take a little wood off, exercise a little and the next thing you know you are outside shooting her. We are all a bit hesitant with new stuff but after we get familiar with it it's a breeze...then it bites us in the arse! d;^)
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:laughing: Ya got that right!
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Pat, what's an arse?
Looking real good Rudy!!! Keep it coming!!
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Joe, that's the Queen's English for butt! d;^)
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:biglaugh:
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Keep it coming Ruddy, I'm working on a two-piece as well and have been following your progress. Thanks for the updates.
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C'ville where are your PICs. :)
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Working on it KellyG I'm going to post my bbo first then ill get the two piece up. Keep it coming ruddy!
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ruddy what have you been doing? You got any more done on her?
Kelly
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ive been chasin critters hard! got one day left of deer season, gonna be chasin them today too, ive been in the woods every day this week. gotta get the freezer full. :pray: i'll have some more work done next week i promise. ruddy
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Hey now that is a true reason not to be working on a bow. I hope the lord blesses you with a chance at one of his gifts.
Kelly
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The alarm clock is ringing, Rudy. Time to go back to work, we are anxious to see the "rest of the story" and the end results. :archer:
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i hear ya bernie. i have to take care of some family stuff this a.m. going to be building a caul this week and start heating in some reflex. give me a call im awake this a.m. ruddy
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LOL - Sorry I missed that, buddy (we were out "running around" this AM). Maybe I'll call this evening. Good luck with the caul & bending, that'll be interesting to watch.
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i got some more work done to the bow today. ive built a caul, with a very easy elipse. about 2 1/2" of reflex for 36" measuring from the center of the handle. this should handle up to a 72" bow , if i so choose to build one that long. i used olive oil to to protect against any scorching. i also used tin foil as a heat sheild between the bow and the form. so far i have one limb done. here are the pics. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry051.jpg)my starting point. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry053.jpg)midway through. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry054.jpg)one limb done. i did 6 " at a time like mr pat suggested. i have some questions. how long do i need to let this sit , clamped to the form. am i going to have to repeat this process on this limb. and how do i clean the oil of before i sand tiller. thanks for lookin. ruddy
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IMO,,,,,
Overnite or until it cools... Your choice.
Doubt it very much.
Wipe it with a rag and sand, or scrape it a little with your scrapper. Clean with acetone if you plan to apply finish or glue's.
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Now you're loggin', Ruddy! Nice job on the caul and good pics and proceedure too. Verrrr-ry interrrr-resting.
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this is the first limb i did today . i did let it cool for a few hrs before unclamping. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry058.jpg)starting the second limb (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry055.jpg)this is the first heating of the second limb (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry056.jpg)i let this cool and unclamped it to see what i was working with. i did a second heating this is where i stopped for the night. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry059.jpg). i learned a lot from the first heating of each limb. after unclamping i could see where i needed to put heat and clamps for the second heating.i was very amazed on how fast and how much the wood retains heat. learning to work the the clamps fast while at peak heat was a trick too.once you start dont stop until the limb is finished, to retain heat through the entire limb. very cool stuff. i'll unclamp her in the mornin and see what it looks like. ruddy
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I am learing a lot just from what you are doing. Nice notes ruddy. you will be shooting her before long.
Kelly
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after 3 heat treatments on the straight limb and 2 on the character limb this is where im at. note the character limb is on the right as has been through the entire build. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry060.jpg). i have noticed that the character limb has been excepting the heat a little better than the straight limb. i do have a question. is the goal to make each limb follow the form ? in other words, when you unclamp the bow from the form its not supposed to move at all. or is this a misconception from seeing glass bows being built. ruddy
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Ruddy, when you unclamp a bow from the form it will go "back" a little bit from the form. When correcting bends and twists you want to go a little past the ultimate place so it will settle in where you want it. Same with adding reflex.
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Now, I well remember Mike, my actual (bow) building mentor, telling me that self-same thing, (that Pat B just said) back when we were doing some "movement" on a bow/stave, early on in my "lessons". Keep up the good work, Ruddy.
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Great, great thread guys. Just finished reading the whole thing. Really just motivated me on the whole process once again. Used to make them myself till my layoff 9 years ago. May just have to get back into it.
Ruddy, can't wait to see the completed bow.
Sorry for interupting the flow of the thread.
Earl
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nice work heat treating. That osage can bend a lot with the right amount of heat. Nice looking bow so far.
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i did another session of heating the character limb and let cool. i did work on it some today. seein how i couldn't string it today i worked on shaping the tips and cutting in new string grooves. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry068.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry067.jpg)this is what the tips started out as. time to remove the excess material . i tried to make the tips look as good as possible. i think there is room for some fine tuning. any how here are the pics. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry063.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry062.jpg)these pics are the belly side of the nock grooves both tips (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry070.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry069.jpg)more to come. ruddy
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coming a long nicely
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Looking good, Ruddy. Are you gonna put on overlays. Not necessary, mostly cosmetic.Do round over any sharp corners or edges so you don't cut the string.
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good question about the overlays mr pat. ive been curious about using deer toes as an overlay. i was wondering if anyone has done this? if so whats the procedure.the other thing im questioning is putting sinew on as a backing.ive read in another thread here on tg that sinew shows its benefits on bows 60" or less. my bow is 62" n-n.63" tip to tip. would i be wasting my time and effort on sinewing my bow?
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I've never used deer toes(hooves). If you can get the glue surface flat they should work fine.
This bow is not a good candidate for sinew. To get the full potential from sinew a bow needs to be over drawn so to speak so if you were drawing 32" or more sinew would benefit a bow of this length. Save the sinew for it's own project and finish this one up as is. She is nice enough as she is!!!
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deer toes now you made me curious, I think it would be similar to buff horn or gemsbok horn. I hope you try.
Kelly
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she shoots!!! is started workin on her at 4 a.m. this mornin, sorry couldnt resist. i did some more sanding on the bow. filed in the nocks just a little deeper and sanded the rough edges so's not to cut the string. strung her up and got her on the tiller tree for a workout. did some warm ups out to 24". then i raised the brace to 5 3/4" and exercised her out to 28" draw. i put the scale on her and she came in 49#@ 28" draw. here are some pics (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry072.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry073.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry075.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry076.jpg)sorry about the last pic not bein rotated i dont know how to do that. ive already put 3 dozen arrows out of her i have to let batman and bernie shoot her some and see what they think. she aint ready to get all dressed up yet got to shoot her in for a little bit there is some small detail work to take care of first. let me know what ya think. ruddy
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oh the last pic , the bow is canted so the arc might look funny. ruddy
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Excellent tiller. How much set did you end up with?
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:notworthy:
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i dont know yet on the set. its still strung on the tree.i guess mr pat calls it " sweating the bow". i'll unstring it after lunch and give it a rest and get back to ya on that osagetree. ruddy
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a few more pics (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry077.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peicebowbuildfirsttry078.jpg)
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I just knew that bow was going to come out looking as grand as it does in the last pic on your tree and in the FDs, Ruddy. You've done a great job and can be proud of your work. Now a little TLC in a simple finishing up.
I'll be honored to get a chance to shoot it, buddy, as I am sure Don will be too.
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Excellent job! That bow will be capable to take any game animal you want to pursue.
BTW, I experimented with deer hooves last year but the shell of the hoof was too thin for an overlay. The quick of the foot was much thicker than I would have thought. Maybe a big bucks hoof if more suited for the job.
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i want to say a big thanks to batman for gettin the stave. to mr pat for walkin me through this build. to bernie for lettin me use your bowscale, and lettin me look at the awesome selfbow collection hes got.and to everyone else who gave advice and encouragement. this was a lot of fun i should be finishing this up soon. i will post pics when she's all dressed up. ruddy
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That is a good lookin bow! Been foolowing this and have to say congrats on a fine bow! :thumbsup:
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Real nice Ruddy, one to be proud of for sure. :thumbsup:
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Well done Ruddy!
I have used deer hooves as overlays but you have to use a big mature animal and cut just right to get the thickness needed. They look great when polished up.
Sean
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My pleasure to be of some help, buddy. With any luck at all, I'll get to see (and shoot) the bow this coming week one day :jumper: (I was just talking with Ruddy on the phone). When you come down, Ruddy, I have some various "colored" woods (small pieces) that work well for overlays, especially on Osage, and/or some various bone/antler materials. We might find something you'd like to use, if you don't find something before then. Looking forward to you (and your bow) visiting.
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Ruddy, great looking bow. Looks like you nailed it, congrats. Can't wait to hear what the set is on it.
Earl
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from the way it looks to me , so far just an inch. im guessin that it takes about 100 arrows for the bow to settle in? am i correct ?
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Ruddy, I also meant to say that, while you are here, you will get a chance to look at the wood/primitive bows I have on hand again, and pay close attention to some of the overlays, if you are interested. Some I've done, and (naturally) some others have done. Of course, as Pat said, they are basically just for looks/dress in any case.
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Ruddy, if you only have 1" of set after "sweating" the bow for hours she should be pretty broke in. I still like to put 100 arrows through a bow before it is done but seeing the results after sweating I can usually tell just "how" good a bow is.
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Ruddy
Thanks for the adventure. I learned a alot...I appreciate you sharing your work.
Great job!
><>
Glenn
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That is a very pretty tiller. Nice job!
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Jod well Done Ruddy, Now get on over to the swap thread and get signed up.
Stiks
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fantastic job,you can be proud of that bow...awlsome....john
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thanks fellas! im still amazed/stunned for lack of a better term, that im shooting this bow.im still undecided about what finish to put on her.i also have a much greater appreciation for what all the more experienced bowyers here at tg do.a lot of serious talent here. ruddy
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AND - you're a part of it now, buddy. :thumbsup:
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Great job Ruddy. You can indeed be proud of your accomplishment. Now take it out and kill something with it. later. Don
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Ruddy, great job :knothead:
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i just finished this bow.it has 4 coats of tru oil gun stock finish. it is 63" amo 47#@ 28" finished weight. i sacrificed a corovan tab to make a strike plate. the handle wrap is distressed furniture leather with #4 brownell black serving as the stitching. im not satisfied with the stitch. i will not be using nylon serving for stitching again. im open to suggestion for a better stitch material. i am however a big fan of the baseball stitch.let me know what ya think. (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peiceselfbowfirsttry004.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peiceselfbowfirsttry003.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peiceselfbowfirsttry006.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peiceselfbowfirsttry007.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peiceselfbowfirsttry008.jpg) (http://i602.photobucket.com/albums/tt101/broketooth/2peiceselfbowfirsttry009.jpg)
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Again Ruddy, you did a jam up job on this bow. Your learning curve is way shorter than mine is!!! d;^)
I've used heavy artificial sinew with good results for stitching handle wraps.
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Looks Grrrr-rrrreat, Ruddy. Love the look of it (even in takedown mode) Can't wait to see, handle, and shoot it later this week. We'll get some pics of us shooting it if possible, and post those here also.
I was thinking the artificial sinew too for stitching. I have a 1/4# spool of it and could give you some but I think mine is only medium and may be too small - we'll compare it.
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Just double up on the lighter artificial sinew if you don't think it is thick enough.
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FANTABULOUS!!!!!!!!!!!
Nice stick Ruddy! Give me a call Friday around mid afternoon.
Stiks
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A 1+ job there, congrats.
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Outstanding job!!!
Shawn
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Beautiful work, Ruddy...
Stan
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VERY NICE!!
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Good thought, Pat; certainly worth considering, Ruddy. Mine looks like you could maybe even use three strands together if you wanted to. You can tell when you look at it.
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Real nice.
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Looks great Ruddy, nice work.
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:thumbsup: Nice job!!!
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Nice Bow!
I use leather boot laces for stitching on the knife sheaths I make. Get most of mine at WalMart.
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Very nice ruddy ! Can i ask where you got the take down sleeve from ?
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Where did you get your sleeve? I guess I missed that?
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i got the sleeve from 3 rivers archery about 8 yrs ago.may isuggest , if you do get a sleeve i would inquire if it comes with 2 brass inner sleeves. this way when you put the stave back together with the sleeve, as you tiller it gives you time to let the bow decide what limb will be the upper or lower limb. then you can take a brass pin and perminantly attach the upper limb to the sleeve. im in the process of getting another sleeve.when i do i will do a thread on the insallation of a sleeve. ruddy
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That makes perfect sense!
jeffB is looking to make his selfbow a two peice. I tink his handle is too small. What were the inside dimensions of the sleeve? Also, lenght?
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Joe, there are two size sleeves. I think Ruddy used the larger one(oval shape) and the smaller one has a round cross section.
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actually mr pat mine is the small D shaped sleeve. the flat partof the sleeve is where the back of the bow is. look at the butt of the limb and you will see the d end profile. i think its the first few pics of the build. mike yancey of pine hollow longbows also offers these sleeves but he has an oval model too.
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Ruddy looks great. I hope mine turns out half as good.
Kelly
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Today I was honored by the fact that Ruddy brought his newly finished 2 Piece Osage Selfbow down for me to see and for us to shoot a little. We had a ball, both shooting the bow, and shooting the bull about bows, arrows, etc. I tell you in all truth that I was really impressed with Ruddy's bow - and I have some very nice all wood Primitive and selfbows in my collection.
I found the bow to look great (as we've seen in the pictures) but also to draw smooth, shoot with little or no noticeable hand shock, and be very quiet (even with no silencers yet applied). The bow seems to require a pretty good cant - at least with either me or Ruddy shooting it (a little bit more so with me). It is a sweet and accurate shooter, as long as the archer does his part. I grabbed two each of some of my River cane arrows, Tonkin Cane arrows, Cedar Arrows by Bill Stroup, and some Ramin Dowel arrows That I made about 5 or 6 years back. The bow behaved very well with all of my arrows (mostly in the 40-45 spine range and weighing close to 500 gr each, w/ their 145 gr tips). The bow really liked (as did Ruddy) the two river cane arrows (by Art B), and the two Tonkin canes (by StringStretcher). We shot at targets from about 8yds out to 41 yds both from the ground and from my tower. I think it is safe to say we were both impressed and enjoyed the afternoon of shooting - his was the only bow we shot today.
We did take a few pictures and I posted some in his thread under Pow Wow but all of them will appear in Ruddy's thread here in the Bowyer's Bench Forum. Wish you could have been there to soot this fine bow with us - but for now, enjoy the pics - LOL. Oh, Ruddy draws about 28" I believe, and I draw about 25".
Our first round groups weren't as tight as we might have wanted but as we got our stuff together between the bow, the arrows, and the shooters, we both tightened up nicely and were more than pleased with our shooting and the results - LOL
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc004.jpg)
Now for some looks at the bow in action:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc003.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc001.jpg)
And from the other side:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc009.jpg)
In this one, Rudy held the bow with a little less cant - just for viewing:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc010.jpg)
(more pics to come in next post)
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Some of my turns (and pleasure) - LOL:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc005.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc006.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc007.jpg)
AND a more or less head-on:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc008.jpg)
And one more of Ruddy up on the tower (I think he liked that - LOL) I very much liked the way the bow shot for me from up on the tower.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v689/ber643/R2Pc011.jpg)
Thanks for the visit and the pleasure of shooting your fine piece of work, Ruddy. We made some good shots with her, didn't we, buddy?
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bernie, i had a ball! i cant tell you enough of how impressed i was with the art b. rivercane arrows. the beauty of their flight from this bow was amazing. osage and rivercane is an icredible combination. after 1 or 2 shots i was dialed in and made some pretty respectable shots, at distances that i really dont care to take in a hunting situation. bernie took to this bow rather well. i looked at bernies selfbow colection rather closely. alot of bernies bows have a classic narrowed handle section, which in turn make them closer to center shot, if this makes sense. the bow that i made resembles shooting a cross between an american flatbow with a rounded english longbow handle section, with just a strike plate, arrow pass area. bernie it was truly a pleasur to shoot your range. im honored that you got to shoot a bow i made. im truly grateful to all the tg members here that helped make this build possible. ruddy
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My pleasure, Ruddy, and you really deserve how well that bow came out. I dare say it is one you will never forget.
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that looks real good Ruddy! like wow!!!! :thumbsup: :archer2:
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all i can say is sssaaaawwwwweeeeetttttt!!!!!!!!
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You guys are having way too much fun. She looks good Ruddy. I bet she shoots sweet also.
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Great bow!
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That ain't right! No snow, out having fun this time of year, just ain't right I tell you :readit: :bigsmyl: ! I'm eating my heart out guys!
You bow looks great Ruddy! Bet it performs just as well. Hey, you need to get Burnie to show you where he hides his cane patch. Lord, you guys are blessed with fine arrow material. Next challenge perhaps? Enjoyed the pics........Art
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mr art b, i enjoyed shooting the arrows you made. they are beautiful functioning works of art. ruddy
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Thanks Ruddy, good to hear that they shot well for you........Art
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LOL - Art, Rudy was so impressed with my canes, that were made by you, that I felt forced to shake the poor guy down 3 times between the front door and his car before I let him drive away - ;)
We have made a little deal re cane arrows and bows. Rudy wants to make a bow for me out of a real nice TN Osage stave I have here, (I told him I'd be honored to have him make me a bow, when he brought it up), while I make him a few cane arrows to shoot out of his Osage 2Pc bow.
He wants to get started on another bow right away and needs a stave for it, and while my cane arrows aren't near as pretty (spell beautiful) as yours, they shoot well and are forgiving (as all canes are). So I guess we have a deal. I have another Osage stave, from old friend, Linc, that I need to start work on (been procrastinating way too long since my "It" bow broke - just took the heart out of me), before I would ever be able to get to the TN stave anyway. Ruddy called me yesterday evening about it and the upshot of that is that he will get down here again (SOON, I expect :D ) to pick up the stave to start on. I believe he plans to do another build-along with it on here too, so that will be neat. Maybe I'll loan him a couple or so of my other old cane arrows to shoot until I get his done LOL
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That sounds like a great deal for Ruddy! Perhaps you're going to need a little boot though..........cane arrows heap much work :D !
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Ummm - how well I know, Art - but Ruddy realizes it too and is only asking for 3 shooters and 3 hunters, plus he's providing the points, BHs, and feathers. Besides he's got a good heart :) . (Also I hope to get him headed towards doing some himself in the future :D )
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"Besides he's got a good heart"
That's all that's required!
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Thanks for sharing the day with us. Looks like too much fun, the only thing better would be hunting with her.
Did you name the bow yet ruddy?
Well gulp that is a hard act to follow but I will try to get something looking and shooting as near as good as I can.
God Bless and Happy Shooting,
Kelly
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That's the spirit, Kelly!
I knew you, of all folks, would understand that, Art - bless your heart.
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kelly with the soldiering and the bow building you got goin on you got your plate full bud. the tools are on thier way. your doin fine you have alot of good help here. just take your time. if you feel frustrated just stop and wait till another day. beleive me it will be there andf always be on your mind.i couldnt tell ya how many nights i layed awake thinkin about the bow i was building. ruddy
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LOL - It's a common malady of those who pursue the elusive wood bow that lurks in innocent looking staves. :archer: