It seems so many here feel that going traditional requires barebow shooting. While some may hunt successfully that way it seems a phase stickbow hunters are stuck in. Those of us who shot recurves back in the 50's and 60's remember that shooting without sights was the exception, and rare at that. Nearly everyone I knew who hunted then used sight pins. And, if you look at any old catalogs from then you'll see all kinds of sight systems being sold. So what has happened to make nearly everyone today feel that they shouldn't be using them?
I like shooting without sights. That is what happened for me.
Dan
for me it is just the magic of having the arrow go right where I'm looking that makes me love shooting without sights.
Because sights go out of whack when they get bumped, and take way too much time to set up the shot.
If that turns your crank, enjoy. I like simple and quick.
For me it was just the challange of shooting a stick bow without sites and doing it like my Dad did it in his day . A big added bonus was that I was able to take some shots that I would not have been able to take with sights such as low light conditions and situations where the bow had to be canted . In alot of ways I think the more simple stick bow with instintive shooting gives me advantages I didnt have before .
Mike
Those phases are just cuffs on trousers, and right now we are predominately cuffless. There was a lot of revenue to be had by persuading archers that sights were good.
Personally, sights would not be for me.
I was shooting recurves, and longbows, back in the 50's and 60's. I guess Me, and the guys I hunted with, were the exception, as none of us used sights. I have never used them. Nothing wrong with using them, if one wants to though
:archer:
I like the simplicity and ruggedness of a barebow. Less dependence on technology and more on skills attained through hard work and persistent practice. It sure is cool to see that arrow fly right where you intend it to. I have nothing against other guys using sights, they're just not for me.
No sights on any of my tradbows and took 'em off my wheelbows two years ago. "K.I.S.S." works better for me.
I shot with wheels for so long with sights. There is no comparison. No sights is the way to go. Like Buff said. It is watching the arrow go where you were looking is what makes it.
Back in the old days, shooting form for many of us was something we invented as we went along. As the films and television shows showed more archery, I saw how Hill shot. There were also those folks who were trying all kinds of new things. Most of the sight shooters I knew jumped to the compound. I used sites for target, but hated them for hunting. things just were not that predictable the way I hunted and they are even less predictable now. I hate tree stands, so things happen quick.
I've been shooting a bow for 40 years and hunting with a bow for 35 years. I used sights on target recurves but I've NEVER hunted with a sight on a stick bow. Instinctive shooting gives you an advantage in the field, IMLTHO.
Yep. I remember sights. I think about half the folks I shot with in the late 50s early 60s used them. I tried them as well. Got quite accurate with them. I stopped using them long ago because they're not as quick or versatile as instinctive shooting. They don't work as well if one has to shoot from awkward positions, canting the bow, etc., and perhaps not as well on heavy bows which can't be held as long. However, on moderate weight bows, they do generally improve accuracy, or enable folks to attain a higher level of accuracy with less effort. I think we might see a little resurgence in their popularity.
Another, related observation from that era is that folks took much longer shots, both at game and on the practice range. A lot of field archery courses had 40 to 80 yard targets. They still do, I guess, but few traditional people shoot them nowadays. Maybe as our target shooting and hunting ranges became shorter there was less of a need for them.
I think part of the "return to traditional" movement is not really the point of sights or wheels or easier or even much-more-accurate as much as it is just plain simpler. This is a very real thing for some.
For many of us sights are not needed, and because of that, they are not wanted. But also take note. Nearly none of us condemn you for wanting to use them, if you so desire.
It is really a pretty neat...maybe even a nearly miraculous thing for a person to be able, in this day and age of using computer sighting systems, laser controls etc. to be able to actually draw back a bow, and using only "the force", make the arrow hit something you want it to hit. It really is.
It is truly magic and I like that magic feeling.
ChuckC
There is a great simplicity when it comes to the bow, the arrow and the archer. Because I make all my own tackle, my acheivements are purely mine. When concentration and focus is rewarded by success the moment is absolutely majical. My favorite thing to do is to watch that pingpong ball smack into the range wall on the end of my arrow. :goldtooth: :goldtooth:
There's absolutely nothing like it! Put your scope on your high-power rifle, and sights on your pistol, but reward yourself with your own success with your bow. My two cents worth, anyway.
-Brett
I don't use sights because that is what I choose. If you like sights, by all means use them. I don't care about being an elitist or what ever. If you want to shoot wheels I wouldn't care either. The way I do things is my choice not a conformity issue. I use aluminum arrows, some guys wouldn't think of it. I like challenging myself to the skill of just looking at some thing and shooting it, and hitting what I'm looking at.
Sights are just another item to go wrong right when you really need them! :knothead:
Yes; the indians used sights - like Ishis famous poison sumac twig system ( you never stole that one twice !!)
And the English won many battles with zippo lighters glued to their bows ( you save your matches for lighting the stove for tea).
In my bow collection; all my bows are drilled and tapped for sight systems.
:saywhat:
Yes; people used sights; that is ~some~ people used sights; but not all people- ever. I figure those inclined to rely upon sights had moved over to the path of the compound bow. Yes; Fred Bear did tape on a sight; he did not become Fred Bear with the use of a sight though; nor did Howard Hill; or well; so many others.
If you cant your bow your sight pins would have to look like the letter 'C'. I really don't think using sights on recurves and longbows were ever THAT much of an item; yes target bows were; some bear takedowns have sight systems made right into the riser. But I don't recall sights ever being that popular; and I think a check of the different shooting divisions in archery tournaments separated sighted bows and non sighted bows a long long time ago.
And Mr Chuck is right; its just something to fix when you least need to fix things...
:campfire: :archer:
anyone here shoot point-of-aim or gap?
couldn't one consider the arrows tip or the arrows shaft a sight aid?
i don't use "sights" as in a fixed type but i do sight using what i have in front of me.
:confused:
"Who would hunt without sights? "... I think a few people do :bigsmyl:
Funny that,when I started shooting in 1968-69,nobody used sights.
And most stickbow shooters today still don't.
Nice troll though,please carry on.
Never tried them on my longbow, but if they work for ya........... hang em on yer stick an kill ya a big fat critter ta ett!! :thumbsup:
"Nice troll though, please carry on."
John 4, I agree 100 percent. This was the point I was attempting to make on another recent thread entitled, "Am I at Risk?..."
Someone tosses out the bait and "trolls". Then there's a little polite discussion. Then a few divergent opinions are offered up. Then someone will say that using sights is far more accurate and in the name of being ethical we owe it to the animals we hunt to use sights. Then someone will say, he knows a guy who routinely shoots in the upper 290s on a 3-D league and he doesn't use sights. Then there's less polite discussion. Then the anything-goes cavalry comes charging in yelling- "Shoot what ya wanna shoot! Hunt how ya wanna hunt! Who is so-and-so to say what is or is not traditional?!" Then there's considerably less polite discussion. Then the thread gets locked or pulled. Then three days from now, someone will ask why we've moved away from using stabilizers on our trad bows. And then...
Here's my opinion about sights. They're unnecessary for 5-15 yard shots and they look ugly as heck attached to $1,000+ custom traditional bows. Sorta like a booger hanging off the nose of a supermodel.
Discuss amongst yourselves. Huck and I are going to take my sightless longbow out to do a little rabbit hunting.
Nope, sights are a waste of money for me. Even back in my compound days I never used them. I never had a sight on my hammer so I figured I didn't need one on my bow.
If I had to use sights I think I'd give up shooting all together. ( Well Maybe Not ) Shooting instintivly is all the fun, and the total package. Yesterday at the local indoor range it was me and a buddy with trad bows and everybody else with wheelie's. We had some great time's sharing our bows with them as is the case, and shot respectivly. Even with the one local champ shooting the 10x ring at 35 yards I could be happy for him and yet completely content with my equipment.
When I started I was using a wheelie bow with sights. Now I only have a long bow with no sights. I feel like my shooting ability got better
I personally won't use a sight, in my opinion, that's for the compounds. If you like them, go ahead, but go to a trad shoot and see if they let you compete. Better yet, go to a shoot with rolling and aerial targets and use that sight. I'd like to see how many you can hit.
"who would hunt without sights???"
I would, and I do it sucessfully.
Compound bows happened. Thats what did it. Thats just what I believe anyway. If you are going to use sight pins then I wouldnt call it TRADITIONAL then. There is just somthing about shooting a trad bow whether it is a recurve or longbow that just makes you feel closer to nature.....
Some very interesting responses. I guess I have a different recollection than some as in my early years of shooting recurves sights were common. And not just for target shooting. A cursory search of old catalogs will show numerous sights designed to rotate to account for aiming down out of tree stands as well.
And contrary to what some may think my interest is not in stirring up issues between those who do and those who don't. My concern is that there are plenty of trad shooters who could benefit from a spell of sight shooting but who for some reason feel it would be frowned upon by others.
As someone who used sights for a number of years back in the late sixties I remember how much my shooting improved when I was forced to concentrate on my form the way sights require.
Sorry Labs but I have not seen anything uncivil or out of line with this thread...until the troll comments showed up. There was no discussion about ethics , high 3-D scores or anything else you listed in your post, until you posted. I do agree with you about sights on a trad bow but the rest of your post is nothing but speculation on your part IMHO.
A simple longbow with simple wood arrows and a close shot, that's what does it for me. Adding a sight would take away from the simplicity of my way of hunting and shooting a bow..
QuoteOriginally posted by John 4:
Funny that,when I started shooting in 1968-69,nobody used sights.
And most stickbow shooters today still don't.
Nice troll though,please carry on.
All those holes in old used recurves must be from worms then........
:rolleyes:
I agree with rabbitman Labs if ya do not keep bringing up your point about these type of threads it would be a forgotten issue on most of them. I do not like sights on my bow as I cant the bow quite a bit and sights only make things complicated. I also find it hard to say guys could benefit from shooting with a sight, when the bow has to be pretty much straight up and down and I see very and I mean very few guys shooitng this way in the field. If you are talking Olympic shooters and such than yes that is their style. I just do not see it at the shooots I go to. If ya want to use sights great, if it helps ya kill more critters I am all for them, but for most as ya see by this thread they are not. Shawn
I've shot for 31 years and never shot sights, I'm terrible and judging yardage primarily because I never had to. Couldn't ever imagine shooting sights.
Trapper
Dan-
All the holes in old recurves aren't from worms, they are from sights that were put on, taken off, and thrown away. The old recurves with holes for sights rarely have the sights.
Most of the old sights from the sixties are in landfills now.
I went out and shot my trainer bow, that has a sight on it. Jeepers it's cold. Anyway, with a raw beginner it does cut down on how much caulking i need to do to may garage, but man do you need to watch your form. My instinctive twitches do more to keep the arrow on the mark than I thought. Take a bow with a sight on it and tilt your head or the bow just a bit, look out garage wall, here I come.
I snap shoot way to fast to use a sight and I agree with Labs besides I like his dog pic.
Dan knows what them holes were for in the older recurves .
Mike :campfire:
The reason I left the compound bow to go to the recurve was because of all the gadgets: sights that light up, tell you the range, shoot laser beams onto the target, fall away arrow rests, 85% let off, one cams, two cams, one and a half cams, it just got so complicated.
The trad bow eliminates all these gadgets and makes for a simpler more enjoyable time afield. Yes it means that you may not take home as much game but when you do it will be a lot more fun and a lot more meaningful. If I wanted to shoot sights I would have stayed with my compound with the gadgets.
Boy, there are days when I wonder why I don't use sights, and there are others where I am content with my shooting.
I believe there is alot of truth to what BAK said,
"My concern is that there are plenty of trad shooters who could benefit from a spell of sight shooting but who for some reason feel it would be frowned upon by others."
I think some people, no, I know of people who would truelly benefit from using a sight and they know and admit to it also. But the particular individuals who I personnaly know and am referring to, have let their sense of pride get in the way of making that decision to go with a sight because they are sure they will be looked at differently by the people in their trad circles they hang out in.
For me, I haven't used sights on any of my trad bows. But, lately I have been thinking that my accuracy is in some need of improvement. I am thinking I might get a bow that is already tapped with inserts and I might get one of those sights that DAS makes.
I was shooting in the late 60"s too, like a lot of you. What I remember was battles back then between sight shooters and instinctive shooters.
going a step further, there was a fight between all of the classes, including gap shooters, string walkers etc etc. It all came down to competition.. sound familiar ? Then the compound came along and made it even easier for everyone to compete.
Anytime you add a sighting device, you can possibly increase total accuracy. Add more or better devices and accuracy can go up. Add stabilizers, two point aiming (peeps), I am surprised nobody allows the use of a gyroscopic stabilizer... anyway. Back then it totally split certain groups or clubs, mine was one of them. Target archers did one thing hunters did another thing and they nearly never mixed.
Why ? Competition.
MOST instinctive shooters cannot compete with MOST sight shooters... at least in target archery, which of course is nearly always what you have if points and scoring is involved.
And they were always on us about... you know what...here it comes...another blast from the past...
Remember buying into that phrase..." you owe it to your quarry to use the best, highest tech, most accurate, most deadly (add some more stuff if you want)...in other words...I am a bad, uncaring person if I don't buy the newest matthew's bow each year, plunk 1,000 dollars worth of extras on it and be the best I can be. Remeber...I owe it to the quarry.
Then those same people take this highly accurate stuff and go and shoot out to 100 yards or so. Why ? competition of course.
"Heck, it was the only shot he gave me so I took it." "He wouldn't come in any closer (than 60, 70 80 yards) so I took the only shot I got...isn't he a beauty..Pope and Younger for sure." " He was getting away so I shot".
I owe it to the game. ?????
Can someone please tell me something. Now, let me preface this. I am as good a person as anyone. I cried when Old Yeller was killed. I give my dogs table scraps when they look up at me with those pretty brown eyes... I have been known to stop and help an old lady across the street (a long time ago. when it was OK to do that)....
Where does it say in the rule book that I owe any critter anything. I am out there to kill it.
I am trying to push a sharpened stick thru its vital organs and cause it to stop being alive, and I am doing this so I can eat its flesh.
How and why do I owe it anything ?
Justification for this competition ?
ChuckC
Quite simply, there is no need for them.
A lot of people shot with sights in the 60's after they started marking the yardage on the stakes of the Field courses. Before that sight shooters had to guess the yardage and then adjust their sight after the first arrow went high or low. On the NFAA Field Round you shot 4 arrows at each of the 28 targets which were from 10 to 80 yards. Shooting that many arrows in a round most people shot light weight bows, 32 to 38# was the average bow weight for Field Rounds. When these people switched to their hunting bows in the fall the average weight was 45#. A lot of people still used sights on their hunting bows because they weren't use to shooting without sights.
There were still a lot of people that shot barebow for hunting as well as Field Rounds. Then there were people like me that shot sights for compition and no sights for hunting.
My "target bow" was 40# and my hunting bows were 55,60 and 70#.
This picture was taken in the early to mid 60's...the TV didn't have a Remote.. :biglaugh:
(http://tradgang.com/ron/ron37.jpg)
I learned to shoot without sights using a fiberglass 35# bow with twine as its string. When I was older, my dad bought a compound bow for me and I thought it was soo cool but I continued to shoot without sights and even won a few 3-D competitions in my class (youth compound, no sights, no release aid). About 8 years ago, I upgraded my compound with a PSE model and it came complete with all kinds of goodies that I wasn't used to like sights, overdraw, peep-sight, release and increased let-off. I worked with that bow, sighting it in and getting it just right.
My first hunting situation was an elk hunt in Colorado and I was lugging around this bow, up and down mountain slopes for days. It was real heavy after four or five hours. So my dad and I sat down for a break and our first elk came marching down a trail, caught us off guard, but he was heading right for me. My dad didn't have a shot and as the elk turned and stood quartering away from me, I let the arrow go and it hit him high in the shoulder. It was a horrible shot and I screwed up an opportunity of a lifetime. We trailed him for a few miles until the blood became non-existent, we never saw that elk again. I recounted the events that led up to the shot. Long hiking, heavy bow, heart pounding, and all of those things that have to be lined up just right to get the arrow in the kill zone. I haven't hunted with that bow since.
My recurve is light and hardly cumbersome even with a four-arrow quiver attached. The mechanics of pulling the string to anchor and releasing when I'm focused on where I want the arrow to go is so much easier! I need to sell the compound due to lack of use!!
Some people should be encouraged to use a sight. For example:
"Ya know Buford, you've been shooting that recurve for what, going on 15 years now? I really have admired that bow, she shore is pretty. You shoot pretty regular don't you? Yep, I thought you did. Dang near every day or every other day for that matter, right? Thought so. Hey, about those groups you been shooting, I've noticed they've stayed pretty consistant over the last 15 years now. They got a certain kind of shotgun pattern to them. Oh, you already knew that? Ok. Ever try anything to tighten up that blast pattern, err, group? Tried it all huh? I hear ya. You know if you ever go out deer hunting, you might want to try something that will make things a little more consistant. Oh, you have been hunting. For how long? The whole 15 years huh? Any luck? Too bad buddy. One of these days, one of these days. Hey, if ya ever need any help tracking or dragging one out, give me a call. In fact, let's make that a priority for next season! What do you mean how are we gonna do that? Well, you said you tried everything to improve your shooting right? Ok, but have you ever tried using a sight on your bow? Yes, I'm well aware that it is a recurve Buford. Why are you grasping your chest and breathing so hard by the way? Anyway, so what? Your buddies? What about your buddies? What do you mean they will ridicule you? No they won't! You really believe that, huh Buford. So your saying that your buddies will say that your setup isn't traditional if you ad one of those so-called thingamajiggers there. Well Buford, I've known you for many years now and you've always called yourself a traditional shooter. And, I say this with all due respect Buford, in all those years you missed just about every target and certainly every deer you've ever shot at. Yep, I know that you know that, I hear ya. The romance is great and all, I'm just suggesting something that might improve your shooting and it might make things alot more fun too. Nah, don't worry about your "buddies" Buford. They'll still let you hang with the group. They'll get over it. Well, maybe."
we forget that it is about having fun, not about making rules. I am an archer. I hunt and do not put restrictions on having fun. some people will never be able to shoot bare bow very well, and others will. you should be able to do what ever it takes for you to shoot at your best. if that means a sights then great, if that mean bare bow, great. just have fun and shoot your best.
tinkering with sights, rests, stabalizers, etc. is the reason I quite the compound. i would spend half my time adjusting and the other half worrying that i adjusted them right. you guessed it, that left me with no time to actually shoot. i'm not bashing sights though if that is your style of shooting go right ahead, its just not for me, thanks, Dan.
I shot a recurve with sights for many years until the late 70's sometime when I bought a used Damon Howatt Hi-Speed. It was so pretty that I couldn't bring myself to drill it and started shooting barebow. Never went back to sights.
Well, I'm not quite "vintage" enough to be able to say I was shooting recurves back in the 50's or 60's but I did start in the 70's when compounds were pretty new and there were still a fair number of folks shooting recurves. I had ears and I listened to the grownups when they talked about anything about hunting and I've read hunting stories since I first learned to read. Personally, I recall some of my cousins had sights and some didn't. Can't really recall which ones did better on deer but I was pretty darned young then.
Funny thing though, it really wasn't much different than today. Some guys were stubborn and others were easy to influence. Guys who had lots of time might have learned to shoot bare bow where others would try sights to get better accuracy sooner. Maybe they'd try sigthts then try bare bow or vice versa. As already stated by others, there were target archers and hunting archers and marketing ploys for both groups. Advances in archery equipment were usually made on the target range and MOST people believed that anything that made you shoot better at targets would help you shoot better at animals. Applies to rifle shooting right? That's still true today. If a guy spends eleven and a half months shooting at a range and goes to a couple of field meet whenever he gets a chance but then gets only a week or two to actually HUNT deer, I figure he's gonna go with what he knows. I figure that's why so many old recurves have sight holes in them. the owners spent far more time shooting target and field type archery than they did hunting, of course most of them at least would try sights at some point.
Ask yourself though, what is the best teacher of what works in real life hunting situations?
Well that would be actually hunting and taking a shot at a deer (hit or miss) wouldn't it. But way back in the 50's and 60's just how common were deer? My old hunting buddy told me he remembered reading in the paper here in Missouri that a deers track had been found by a farmer! The paper actually sent a reporter out to take a picture of it for the paper. So, how many average bow hunters ever even got a legitimate shot at a deer? How many magazines put out useful information about deer behavior that could really be used by hunters? Remember when the terms scrape and rub were interchangeble by most hunters? Remember when most hunters thought deer rubbed trees because the velvet got itchy? And just what does any of that have to do with using sights? Well, as I recall, damn few hunters back in the day new much about deer. They didn't get to see lots of them and observe behavior and learn. Most importantly, shot opportunities at real deer were so few and far between that not many hunters figured out that unknown shot distances taken at a live deer under high stress, heart pounding conditions were not always best taken with sights. Sure, there were guys in some parts of the country who had lots of opportunities at game animals and from what I can tell by stories I've read, most of those guys were instinctive shots. Guys like Chester Stevenson, Ben Pearson, Fread Bear, Howard Hill etc. I'm lumping all bare bow styles under "instinctive" even though guys like Hill shot split vision and many shot some type of gap style. Even Hill made it plain that a hunter should choose early on whether or not he wanted to be a target archer or a hunting archer because the two styles surely didn't mix.
I think it is the inherent difference between trad and compound that has changed things today. Before the compound and "letoff", it was simply more efficient to shoot a fluid style without wasting time at full draw and instinctive (or any form of barebow aiming) worked best with a trad bow in hunting situations. With the invention of the compound and improvements in letoffs it rapidly became more efficient to draw a bow earlier during a hunting encounter, hold longer and therefore aim better in a hunting situation. But how many guys had the hunting experience to figure that out? Shorter and shorter compound bows have made the canting of the bow totally unnesessary in all but the worst conditions. The speed of todays lightweight arrows out of a compound and the complexity of most of the elevated rests make shooting one instinctively a poor endeavor. Heck, the few times I've shot a compound in the last couple of years I couldn't even see the arrow go to the target. Basically, compounds have made sights on a bow a very functional aide.
Oh, but we were talking about stickbows huh. Well, then we have to remember the length of the bow and the need to cant in many situations, the lack of letoff and honestly, the simplicity and pure joy of shooting a bow with no sights. Then there is the "backlash" effect Asbell writes about where guys just want to get rid of the gadgets or return to their childhood. Sure it takes longer to get good but we're not in this for instant gratification. At least I hope not... We don't even attempt the ridiculously long shots that were common back then. We have it drilled into us to get close and learn our effective range. I think todays bowhunter has SO much information available wether he or she wants to shoot compound or trad that the learning curve is totally different than 50 years ago. Just about anywhere in the country a bowhunter can get into a decent hunting area within about an hour from their house and they'll actually have a real chance at a deer or other large game.
Todays trad bowhunter is on average far more experienced in deer hunting than when I was a kid. Most of us know that there are trade offs to shooting trad wether barebow or with a sight and we make our choices accordingly. The nice thing is I don't think very many trad shooters would actually ridicule another trad shooter for shooting with sights. Give him a good natured ribbing sure.... but ridicule? Naah.
I always say, shooting instinctively isn't so much a method as it is a goal. Ya gotta learn the basics first and if it takes a sight and a clicker to get it right, by God use them. I keep an open mind about other shooters use of sights and I expect the same in return about my use of no sights.
As Gene Wensel said in one of his articles, "There's no shame in aiming."
So who would hunt without sights? Why, I would.
I hear this alot..."I dont use sights because if I bump it up against a tree it will break or bend or work loose and I dont want to have to worry about that"...you guys must use your bows for machettes...lol...I never had a problem with a sight working loose when I used them...once its set add a drop of superglue and its SET
I'm going to toss this into the mix. Using the common rationale that instincitve is just like throwing a baseball, shooting a basketball, throwing a football, etc...
In all of those things there are various skill levels for every person. Otherwise we'd all be multi-millionaire sports stars.
Given that fact, why is it such an issue to use sights? There is no way every archer on this board is either pro, AAA,or even AA level and no matter how much some people practice they just are NOT going to get there. (or once again we'd all be millionaire's) So why is there shame and ridicule applied to people that want to shoot better?
How much fun do you have on the days you can't hit squat? Do you still shoot for two hours or do you hang it up early?
If someone wants/needs equipment help to get to the skill level they desire let them. It's no skin off your nose and really makes no difference to the rest of the world.
it's a traditional thing, i've always shot barebow even with compound, but mainly because i started out like that
There is no way every archer on this board is either pro, AAA,or even AA level and no matter how much some people practice they just are NOT going to get there.
But everyone can play baseball or what have ya. And when you are the one inventing the rules like bowhunting you can move the plate were ever you see fit in order to be the pro.
Most of my cohorts in the 60's used sights, but I never wanted nor needed them. I've always been able to hit well without them and think it just takes a big "want-to" more than anything else. Hunting without sights is another way of freeing one's self of excessive fiddling. It does take some committment, which seems to be in short supply nowadays.
"I'm going to toss this into the mix. Using the common rationale that instincitve is just like throwing a baseball, shooting a basketball, throwing a football, etc... "
Exactly. Who would put a sight on a baseball, a basketball, or a football?
And if you "can't hit squat," maybe you need to move closer to squat instead pretending to be Howard Hill, Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, or Johnny Unitas.
If your committment to archery practice is in short supply you can make it up with a committment to get closer to your quarry.
QuoteOriginally posted by Rico:
But everyone can play baseball or what have ya. And when you are the one inventing the rules like bowhunting you can move the plate were ever you see fit in order to be the pro.
QuoteOriginally posted by TonyW:
And if you "can't hit squat," maybe you need to move closer to squat instead pretending to be Howard Hill, Babe Ruth, Michael Jordan, or Johnny Unitas.
So does this mean you get the point?
How many guys actually "move the plate" or "move closer" compared to those that keep shooting from the "pro" stakes unsuccesfully?
QuoteOriginally posted by xia_emperor:
we forget that it is about having fun, not about making rules. I am an archer. I hunt and do not put restrictions on having fun. some people will never be able to shoot bare bow very well, and others will. you should be able to do what ever it takes for you to shoot at your best. if that means a sights then great, if that mean bare bow, great. just have fun and shoot your best.
Could not be said any better :clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
How many guys actually "move the plate" or "move closer" compared to those that keep shooting from the "pro" stakes unsuccesfully
Dan we are talking about bowhunting and not competition shooting aren't we?
I would say everyone that shoots a stickbow has or should move the plate closer when it comes to bowhunting.
There is no shame in not being able to kill a deer at 35yds wait till he is in your effective range even if its 10yds or less.
I pulled my own rant, nope I don't use a sight. I have shot without sights for 30 years now. If someone does cool for them.
Shooting instinctivly requires no sights and you do not have to aim. You shoot where you look.
It is amazing what divides people, it's also amazing how much of one thing, or the lack of things raise people above others.
And when it is all said and done is there really a difference !
It's threads like this that goes on for pages and pages because of differences in feelings and yet I know most of you would give the shirt off your back for the guy next to you, and the cool thing is, you would never ask why he needed it. So let's not get carried away because we have an item on our bow, or if we don't have that item on our bow.
I don't think that sights make us a better shot, I also don't think instinctive shooting makes us a better shot, both methods if we face it, make us just too lucky to admit it.
As one man said I worked so hard, sometimes I get lucky.
Pastor Carl
Man is this a great thread! :thumbsup: I've enjoyed everyone's answer (even the one's I don't agree with) and really appreciate the general decorum over such an emotional issue. I salute you, members of tradgang, for your opinions, your feelings, your compassion and, most of all, your good-natured teasing. :notworthy: :notworthy: :notworthy:
Way to go!
-Brett
One thing that I have not seen in this debate. The two years back in the early 70s that I used a compound with sights, I could shoot better groups than I could with my BW target bow. However, when I went hunting with compunder, I found I had way too much to do, when it came time or opportunity to shoot. I went back via a Bear takedown and then back to Schulz longbows. I have talked to people that shoot with every gizmo they can. They are all superior to me, but when they talk of how they missed the dominant buck it's always something that caused it. When pressed, if you can get them to be honest, something which is hard to do these days, you will find that they simply emotionally blewup. Even for those who sit in tree stands shooting down at game, there is things that happen that are hard to control, if things get to complicated to many things can fry your ability to function with analytical control.
QuoteOriginally posted by mmgrode:
I like the simplicity and ruggedness of a barebow. Less dependence on technology and more on skills attained through hard work and persistent practice. It sure is cool to see that arrow fly right where you intend it to. I have nothing against other guys using sights, they're just not for me.
I was going to post my thoughts, but mmgrode took my answer... :wavey:
I find it interesting that the analogy of shooting a bow is like throwing a ball, be it baseball, softball, football or whatever, always seems to work its way into these discussions. But that thought usually isn't taken to its realistic conclusion.
As some have already hinted, throwing a ball looks so easy. And, in fact, just about everybody can throw a ball. But damn few can throw it where they want it to go with any precision, regardless of how much they practice.
I'm not advocating one way or the other. As I said earlier, I don't use sights. Haven't for more than 30 years, but I did dabble with them back in the 60s. For those who can't throw a ball where they want it to go, maybe sights aren't such a bad thing.
I have never used them either except on a compound bow. I think that it would be neat to try an aperture sight like the DAS if I didnt cant the bow so much. One day I may have to try the matchstick trick. :scared:
"So what has happened to make nearly everyone today feel that they shouldn't be using them?"
back to the basics of archery shooting I imagine, and that is instinctive shooting, look and shoot
natives didn't use pins on their sights ..
For those who can't throw a ball where they want it to go, maybe sights aren't such a bad thing.
You must be one of the gifted that you discribe.
I take a little different approach what I lack in precision I subtract in yardage.
I enjoying trusting my self, which is why I don't use sights. No sights, no nock set, and no shelf on most of my bows. And yes, I shoot very well.
I like knowing that where my arrow goes is all my doing.
As always Bob, ...well put :thumbsup:
Even the best hunters miss shots, as do the best target shooters. As a matter of personal preference, I don't shoot with sights. I don't want to. As I practice I continue to improve. Someday I may condsider trying sights, I just don't foresee that day coming any time soon.
if you go to the main page; you will see Bob Lees beautiful bows- with no sights! Look under that group of bows and there is Bob with a bow with sights on it.... it was a phase. No more - no less.
:campfire:
let me throw another kink into this - its my opinion that unless you're cross dominant, then you don't truly instinctive shoot - that is you use point of aim, maybe sighting down the shaft - something.
I am cross dominant. I shot right handed compounds for years, using a peep and pins of course. I still can, its a whole different thing than instinctive focus and shoot.
Being cross dominant, I don't see any way a guy can shoot with pins without a peep. Same dominance I guess its much easier ?
I can see using a peep and pins for accuracy, of course if you're going to go for accuracy, use a laser range finder and release and really maximize your accuracy.
Brad,
Why does the label matter? The question posed in this thread is why not use sights?
No sights. for me personally there's something special about shooting instinctively to me. When the arm comes up and the string goes back and wham it arcs perfectly where your envisioning it going is just a great feeling. It Doesn't happen every time, but when it does it's cool! Everyone should shoot the way that they enjoy shooting. It's all good.
Me.....have been hunting that way for 23yrs now
I'm hunting without sights...trying to see if I can be as good at missing 'em without sights as i was at missing 'em with sights :smileystooges: .
David
Let's all stop for a second, put our personal feelings and egos aside, and think about what the title of this thread is.
Ok, so your a guy that shoots with a sight. Your feeling good that this topic has come up. Confidence is flowing. By page 1 and 2 your feeling good, by the time you read through pages 3 and 4, your thinking that there is no way in the world you would ever post to this thread, and by page 6, well, your not an idiot, so many posts against shooting with a sight, why would an individual bring scrutiny upon themselves by admitting it? Like they are wrong or something.
Sorry folks, I don't agree with all the pro's on here. Some people can and will benefit from using a sight, contrary to what some others believe.
The question was "who would hunt without sights?" not "Why am I superior because I don't use sights."
It was a two part question. A. Who would hunt without sights? B. So what has happened to make nearly everyone today feel that they shouldn't be using them? I think the average person with minimum reasoning skills would be able to figure out, by reading this thread, that most folks here don't care who uses a sight and who doesn't. For me I just wanted to learn to hunt with a recurve or longbow, without sights. I've already done the whole sights, wheels, overdraws, stabilizers, mechanical broadheads, kitchen sink deal. I can honestly say I have never sat in the woods and looked at that whole getup and get that feeling i get when I'm looking at just a stick,string and arra. I just want to get back to basics, back where I started. For me that is shooting a stickbow, instinctively. That's where I'm at. I'm not calling myself traditional, non-traditional or whatever. I don't need a label to have fun in the woods (My wife has plenty of labels for me, anyway). If someone wants to or needs to use a sight on their bow, then go for it!! If someone wants wheels and the whole kitchen sink deal...man, have I got a deal for you!!
David
A. Who would hunt without sights?
A person who is hunting within ranges that does not require them. This range is defined by the individual according to their abilities and preference.
B. So what has happened to make nearly everyone today feel that they shouldn't be using them?
I cannot speak for "everyone" but even when I was using a compound my shots were 25 yards or less. At the end of my compound days I was using a single pin. This progression was a natural evolution to becoming a more effective predator.
The largest deer I have killed was taken at less than 10 yards. The evening before I missed the largest deer I have ever seen in the wild from the exact same spot. The reason I missed the larger deer was that my sight pins had not been set for such a close distance.
Simply put, I do not require sights to be accurate or effective within my hunting "range". Sights require me to focus on an object other than my target.
There is obviously nothing wrong with sights, they are simply not as effective in my style of hunting.
"Why does the label matter? The question posed in this thread is why not use sights?"
it doesn't matter to me, and I don't mean to label, just food for thought when the threads inevitably go from "hunting" to "MY way of hunting"
how many times have people said they don't shoot using sights - they shoot instinctive - but the real truth is that they use point of aim or sight down the shaft etc - eithe consciously or subconsciously ?
isn't that using sights ? not unlike a peep and pins ?
that was my point - shoot whatever you want however you want to, it very likely will not affect my hunting one way or the other ! :)
Quote from the orginal post It seems so many here feel that going traditional requires barebow shooting.
Going traditional does require barebow at any tradiditonal shoot I've been too.
I don't know what the rules are for being a Traditional Bowhunter I didn't know there were any. Were I hunt it is Archery Season for all bowhunters.
Brad, you said: how many times have people said they don't shoot using sights - they shoot instinctive - but the real truth is that they use point of aim or sight down the shaft etc - either consciously or subconsciously ?
isn't that using sights ? not unlike a peep and pins ?
I agree that just because someone shoots barebow doesn't mean they don't aim by some method. That's why I specifically lumped all barebow methods together. I don't care if you shoot point of aim, gap, split vision, "true" instinctive or whatever. I think the gist of the post when asking who would hunt without sites refered to actual bolt on sight pin type sights. In my post I tried to convey the sometimes difficult scenario of shooting at an actual deer when using sight pins and in the excitement, missing the shot. I think sight pins work great on targets at known yardages and especially on bows with compound letoff where you can aim for a longer time in comfort. Adding the use of a range finder REALLY extends their capabilities. But I personally have experienced problems and I know quite a few others who had similar problems wether it is using the wrong pin, not using any of them, looking at all of them or whatever that can cause a miss when hunting.
Of course, it also happens when shooting instinctive (i.e. take your pick of bare bow methods) and in the excitement you forget to pick a spot so it can be a wash either way. That's where the practice comes and regardless of actual aiming method you do it to the point where it becomes "instinctive" and you can get it right even under stress or excitement.
I do however, truely believe that if a guy learns to shoot without sights and regularly practices out to about double the distance he would actually shoot at a deer he will in time and with plenty of practice come to have some advantage over a guy who shoots sights in a hunting situation. No, he won't be able to take the longer shots like a person using a range finder and pins set out to 50 yards but in situations when things happen quickly, the light is dim, you get suprised by a deer coming from where you don't expect it or you have to lean out around the tree in some goofy position well, that's where shooting a trad bow without sights really shines.
Add to that the personal satisfaction of "doing it the hard way" or whatever you care to call it, well, it's just plain fun.
I tried a set of sights on my sky hunter T/D in 93. That lasted about 10mins. I'm a much better shot with out the sights.
The question was about sights. I'm not sure what we will accomplish by opening up the thereisnosuchthingasinstictiveshootingbecauseicantdoityouseethearrowandwontadmitit can of worms again...