Trad Gang

Of being Non-Trad? Just curious. I am setting my longbow up with a rest..and not even a stick on, I drilled out the riser and am using a NAP Centerrest Flipper. Its not shot center though...

Whatchya think??

Ernie

PS....man alive am I getting beautiful arrow flight!

ewwww, its of the rest for me

Don't know, but I hope you like it.  Putting a hole through the riser reduces its resale by about 50% or more.

I actually am a bowyer Orion and this is my personal bow that quite possibly will never be sold...but maybe...
Thanks for the heads up though!

And yeah, so far I do like...but that sure doesn't mean I will in a month!!!

Weeeeooooo... Weeeeoooo...Weeeoooooo!!!!! Sir please pull over.. this is the trad police... you have the right to remain silent!   :biglaugh:

Like They Used To Say "Back In The Day"  "If It FEELS GOOD DO IT!!"

yeah--if it works for ya, do it. Rests were being used WAYYYYY back when. Well some of the dinosaurs on here will be able to tell ya more.

J

BUT I still like my shelf! LOL -- it works for me

Funny Arwin!!

If it helps you shoot better use it.I would use a rest and plunger if it was legal at the 3D shoots I go to.

Ernie, next your gonna tell mr you are using vanes! LOL!  :biglaugh:

I think you are guilty....

Guilty of worrying too much!!!!!!!

I would love to see a picture of this. Seriously.

I'm with Terry, do what you want, try what you want. If it works good for you then who cares what someone else thinks!

I agree with the others do what feels good. And i also would like to see a pic

April Fools Day is still seven weeks away.

As in,
"I'm thinking of drilling a hole in the riser of my longbow for the purpose of installing a rest...APRIL FOOLS!"    :scared:      :scared:      :biglaugh:      :biglaugh:

Have at it - enjoy, that's the name of the game!  What the heck is trad anyway????  As alluded to by J-dog, trad before compounds was non-combative.  Sites, plungers, rests, etc. were all accepted.  The current trend to narrow the definition of what traditional archery was before compounds bewilders me sometimes.

to try to look at the physical implications of this...

the flipper rests I've seen would raise the arrow height at the "shelf" by about 1/8" to 3/16"... I know that some folks are quite concerned about tiller, particularly of the lower limb.   Some are concerned about special tillering of the lower limb to accomodate 3 under shooting vs. split.  

So, my question would be how much effect would putting a somewhat raised arrow support have on the bow, in terms of changing that tiller?

As far as the "is it trad" issue goes, these flipper rests were almost standard way back when, on recurves.   For myself, I shoot for fun and don't score, so it wouldn't be an issue, though I guess it would look funny on my Hills :^)

Dick in Seattle

Let me guess: Now that the hunting season is over, all these brain cells, accustomed to work overtime with daily shooting practice, have asked YOU to think of something for them to do, heh?    :eek:  
Like Terry said.   :D

I make elevated rests for all my bows from leather including my longbows, get great arrow flight, shot from the shelf for along time and got great flight also but get it more consistently w/the rests. I shoot instinctive/split vision I think and cant my bow to about 2 oclock or better depending on the shot but never shoot with a vertical bow.

Now Ernie are you SUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURE you want to get in the habit of punching holes in those sparkly bows you build? DANG! But what the heck, lets us know what you think of it after some experimenting.


You going to have a booth at the MBA convention?

If you drilled out the riser using a piece of hand flaked obsidian or a bear claw, you are okay with me.

Fred Bear's knuckles were elevated, after all.

(Whoa - I just looked at one of them there NAP center rests, and they are butt ugly, kinda look like a black spark plug without the bling.)

One question   'WHY?"  :confused:  

I know Iknow Iknow,,, less contact on the shelf...

Better to put a small piece of something under the rug on the shelf to raise it up and piece of tooth pick behind the riser piece to get away leaving a small gap between the two for fletch clearance.. That way you won't have to worry about the Trad police.
But then again any bow builder already knows this..So the real question again is   "WHY?"

:D  
Well guys, I only asked the Trad Question for fun! I am interested in input on how others use rests though...

I think I will be happy with it..I may switch to the little springy wire rest majigger...but I dont have one right now. I can fill that hole with black epoxy and ya dang near wont see it... but... I dont know when or why... this little bow will shoot just as good and look just as good with a hole in the riser! :0)

This post is doing exactly what I was hoping for, providing some entertainment for all of us!

Thanks!

do it Ernie,,, unless it's one of your Carbon Riser   :saywhat:

Ulnie, you clazy!

What Kingstaken said!

Before I drill a hole in the riser of a bow that meant anything to me, I sure the heck would exhaust all my other options. I've always believed the purpose of using a rest, is to minimize contact with the bow and/or to effect center shot.

To accomplish this same end- and with great success I might add - I've always created a 1/16" fulcrum (contact point) by simply putting a tiny piece of rubber band under my shelf material at a place on my shelf and riser which coincides with the deepest part of my grip. To be more clear, this is the same spot on my grip where I measure my bow's brace height at.

a counterterrorist? I thought that was the Marines?? That's an ARROW REST??

Whatever floats yer boat.  

Longbows are designed around a shelf rest, I dunno of any that were created specifically for any form of elevated rest.

The inherent beauty of a longbow's design and function is to launch arrows off a shelf, close to your bow hand.  Get yer aiming eye down to the shaft, keep yer arms in alignment, and you have the perfect setup for instinctive barebow aiming/shooting.

YMMV, as it obviously has!  :D

No No No...Not the dreaded lil springy thing.     :scared:        :scared:  

Now that's gone way to far, next you'll be putting on a TM Hunter and using a release...   :readit:    

Rob I agree. I guess people just cannot get past the perfection associated with a compound bow due to it's engineering.    :knothead:    ;)

No-Big-Deal.  Whatever works for you.  If it adds to your enjoyment of shooting your bow, I say do it.  Hey, aren't Silvertips recommended to be shot off an elevatd rest?  Doesn't DAS and other major names use them?  To each their own.

Good Luck.

BobW

QuoteOriginally posted by BobW:
...Hey, aren't Silvertips recommended to be shot off an elevatd rest?  Doesn't DAS and other major names use them?  ...

Those are recurves - longbows are typically quite different.  I'll assume we're all taking "instinctive" aiming/shooting ...  

Elevated rests and recurves came together for sight shooters, or any archer that uses some kinda aiming system (POA, GAP, string walking, face walking, etc).  

Truly "instinctive" archers want as much direct sight alignment as possible, and that means getting the bow hand as close to the arra as possible = a shelf rest.

Aren't we actually talking about someone wanting to have fun?

QuoteOriginally posted by BobW:
Aren't we actually talking about someone wanting to have fun?

Depends how each of us define "fun".   :D

Well, the hole is plum through the riser...and yeah, Kaw, it is one of the carbon risers. I'm sure that carbon disqualifies it as a longbow already, so adding a rest isn't going to do anymore damage!   :eek:  

Seriously though Rob, I'm just playing with some different shooting styles. Elevated rests are used very successfully by many recurve shooters that shoot "instinctively"..in that, they aren't using sights, and many aren't using a conscious aiming system either..just playing around and I have the luxury of the tools/skills and bow materials to do it!

Frankly, I want to shoot vanes and get top arrow clearance... this is what it'll take, I believe. I've got several other longbows that will remain "off the shelf bows"...

Dick, send me a Hill and I'll get a rest on there for ya!! :0)

Anyone else here shoot a rest on an LB??

Ernie

Do it, go for it...enjoy it!

Don't let the nay-sayers give you grief about it, either.

The "only" grief you should get is if you are in competition and an elevated rest breaks the rules.

All the rest of it is experimentation, and pursuing what you enjoy.  

Let the couch quarterbacks bask in the glow of their monitors and enjoy listening to their own complaints....

Those that have valid points--like Rob, perhaps--have some point about the geometry involved between hand/arrow and the claimed pure instinct with the body aiming and not the eyes...but a properly installed/modified elevation can in fact improve shootability of some bows with heavy arrows, as it increases the height of the arrow, in some cases forcing the archery to place less of an emphasis on the arrow's trajectory, and more emphasis on the relationship of form.

In other words, it'll make the bow shoot higher than what you're used to, which may help your "instinctive gap" or "form" or whatever term needs to be foolishly picked at here, if you have a heavy arrow with slower speeds.

See Ya,
Marc

My comments were aimed at enlightenment and I never said "don't do it".  

If it's yer bow, do with it as you wish ... and by all means, have fun.

"and by all means, have fun"

Thats what I'm doing!...didn't mean to stir anything up, just like talking about archery...

E

You ain't stirred up a thing other than git some folks a'thinkin'!  :D

Git her done....if it works...DO IT... :)

I shoot of the shelf with my long bows, but I do have a recurve that I put a cushion rest on back in the 80s and never switched.  I also have a flipper rest on another recurve as well.  So I guess im guilty of blasphemy of to the trad gods as well.  I bet they will get over it.  ;)  


Shhhhhh, dont tell anyone, Ive been shooting carbons as well for the last three years.  :scared:

You can do it ONLY if you furbish finished pictures.

Why not go all the way and JB Weld a whisker b-kit?

Am I at risk? got me thinking.
The problem isn't the rest, it's the arrow.
The arrow doesn't need a rest, it needs more zip.
And then I walked down to my workshop and

EUREKA!

I spied an old bag of fireworks. I remembered the rocket assisted take off devices of WWII. What about a rocket assisted arrow? That would be as trad as "The Star Spangled Banner" and, heck, could probably be shot from the most trad wallhanger aluminum delaminated bow around.

Ernie, if this thread gets any sillier, or you don't come up with some pix and shootin' results, I'm gonna hafta shut 'er down before things really get outta control.  :D          :rolleyes:     :cool:

Gimini Cricket... OK..I'll get the camera out. I haven't tuned arras to her yet, but I have flung some with good results! I am really enjoying getting NO riser contact, the bow seems "quieter" and my groups are normal to possibly slighly better....

Be back shortly with pics!

Looking at it from the back...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/hornseeker/P1010020.jpg)

From the Belly....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/hornseeker/P1010021.jpg)

Ewwww, the hole...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/hornseeker/P1010022.jpg)

And...can I be reinstated TRAD if I shoot a Grizzly off it!!!???
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v351/hornseeker/P1010019.jpg)

Your set up is fine, with it you will be surprised on how many different arrow types and sizes that will shoot out of your bow. Any arrow rest that gives or is able to move vertical or horozontal during the shot is what we call forgiving. You can't get that out of a solid arrow rest. Also you should be able to find the right arrow for your bow alot faster.The bows I shoot all have the old springy wire rest and I won't change for the reasons mentioned. I'm not afraid of drilling and tapping any holes because of the end results. Just remember if you string your bow by hand your still traditional to me!

By the way...I just wrapped that SVL octopus tentacle wrap thingymajigger on there this morning... I always shoot bare wood grip, but I must say...I like it. Ugly as sin though, even more ugly than the hole in the riser!!

Looks good, Ernie.  Now yer ready for a FITA tourney ... or hunt!

Ernie, first carbon limbs, now a flipper rest...!  If you need that grip leather wrapped just let me know, I may be able to find someone to do it for you.  Are you planning to be at the TBM meeting this weekend?

I cant make the TBM Blake...

You do leather work??

Yep..hunting and target...both. Not Fita though:0)

Ernie, Can do... Shoot me an e-mail and we will see what we can work out.  I am taking off now for Lewistown.

Cool, have fun.

Opinions about whether you are "at risk" or not aside - that's nobody's call but your own -  looking at your new set up from a purely performance based perspective, it appears that you have taken not one, but two steps in the wrong direction. Assuming your bow was originally tillered with the intent of the arrow being shot off the shelf using a two below/one above grip on the nock. If improved accuracy was your goal, this doesn't make a bit of sense.  :confused:

Hmmm....no sense, huh?  Two mis-steps?  Improving flight will help accuracy.  As for the tiller, his delta from shelf to elevation is miniscule if you extrapolate the distance out to each tip.

If he has some "marginal" tiller error that is magnified by this distance, he will find out.  Otherwise, the change of 3/4" is neglibible to the limbs once the bow is re-tuned by elevating the nock point and completing the tuning process.

Guess all those Oly guys have it wrong, and should be shooting off the shelf...

QuoteOriginally posted by insttech1:
...  Guess all those Oly guys have it wrong, and should be shooting off the shelf...

With hard sights you could stick the rest 2" above the shelf, set up, and still shoot a near perfect round field round.  Been there, done that.  I've stuck an NAP flip rest on an ACS longbow and shot a near perfect 20 yard 300 round using a 3 under release.  

An elevated rest does yield less feather/vane contact with the bow, if properly set up.  

IMHO, that's the difference 'tween "instinctive" versus "freestyle" (soft or hard sights) - instinctive barebow archers really want everything low and inline 'cause we aim with our bow arm and brain.  :)

Labman, I"m not seeing any trouble with Tiller at that nock height, and I've consulted with quite a few serious target archers that claim you can shoot an arrow off an elevated rest or off the shelf without adjusting tiller.

The ILF/OLY rigs can adjust for tiller, and when you are at THAT level, you just may need it, but when i'm shooting a measely 230-260 indoor round, I dont think its going to effect me. I'm getting great bareshaft flight...so I'll get great broadhead flight when the time comes...

Rob...its hard to argue with the arrow close to hand stinctor theory, but I am shooting this rig pure stinctor right now and shot close to my best 300 round last night with a hunting weight bow (249)...nothing to get excited about for many, but it was for me!!

I'll keep playing with her... last night I ripped the flipper out and stuck a T-300 on her...now I guess the holes there for no reason... ooops.

:0)

As long as you're the one havin' fun, Ernie ...    :D  

PS - 4 years ago (?) I shot a 294 indoor 20 yd round with that Flipper rest on a 47# ACS, 3FU.

Paul Schafer shot off an elevated rest, I believ ya do what ya want and who cares what everyone else thinks! Shawn

Looks good to me!  Wells

And this one time at band camp, I saw a man shoot a perfect 300 using a longbow which had an elevated rest stuck to the side of his top limb. And he shot it while sitting on the ground by aiming with his feet...

 :bigsmyl:      :biglaugh:

QuoteOriginally posted by Rob DiStefano:

Quote

IMHO, that's the difference 'tween "instinctive" versus "freestyle" (soft or hard sights) - instinctive barebow archers really want everything low and inline 'cause we aim with our bow arm and brain.   :)  [/b]

Rob,

I suppose that's an individual thing. I shot instinctively for 17 years before I ever decided to try gap shooting. During that time, all my bows had elevated rests and I never had a problem shooting instinctively with them. As a matter of fact, the first time I broke 400 on a 450 indoor round I was shooting instinctively off an elevated rest.

I know that for some people, having the arrow close to the hand is important to their instinctive shooting. But personally, it's never been any advantage to me.

Do what you like, like what you do!  :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:    :thumbsup:

Amen Hatchaser!! Amen!

Lab...the point is...not everyone has to do it the same way... Believe it....Or Not....

I glued a flipper rest to a self bow, that wasn't center shot either. I did get better arrow flight.  I found that the bow would tolerate stiffer arrows with the flipper rest.

Hornseeker:

If there is one prevailing, ubiquitous theme on this site, it's that shooting traditional gear should be fun and that there is no right or wrong way to do it. Everyone - meaning everyone - fully understands this principle. But this thread began by asking "Whatcha think?" and not with, "Everyone who agrees with what I'm about to do please respond with praise, all others please remain silent".

You asked. And I responded with an opinion that is contrary to what you had in mind. It was not offered in an attempt to in any way imply that, "everyone has to do it the same way."

But the problem with these kinds of threads, you know, the ones that begin with: "Is this traditional?" or "If I do this, am I still a traditionalist?"  or, "If I put a cushion plunger, elevated rest, illuminated sights and a 3' long stabilizer on my selfbow and shoot carbon arrows tipped with mechanical broadheads using a trigger release- am I at risk of...not being traditional?"...........the problem with these kinds of threads is that when someone offers up an opinion that is contrary to that of the anything-goes cavalry, through the magic of twisting words and massaging points of view, invariably these threads degenerate into "See- that elitist traditional snob is trying to tell everyone that there is only one way to shoot a traditional bow."

Sometimes I feel like these types of threads are put out like bait piles...to lure prey (people with divergent opinions) in for a sure kill by the anything-goes cavalry. For this reason, I strongly wish that our forum moderators would put the kibosh on threads that in any way question what is or is not traditional.  
  :banghead:     :(      :confused:      

I put the thread out to see if others have done it...and for entertainment...not just for me, but for everyone. I enjoy seeing others opinions on matter! :0)

"And this one time at band camp, I saw a man shoot a perfect 300 using a longbow which had an elevated rest stuck to the side of his top limb. And he shot it while sitting on the ground by aiming with his feet..."

I wasn't real sure where you were going with that..it sounded like you were agitated that me, or Rob or whoever?? had shot good with a longbow that had some techno refinements...if thats not what you were doing...and maybe the big smiley faces afterwards should have clued me in, I apologize...

I think these threads can be fun. I felt wierd doing that to my bow and I thought, "I'm gonna ask the Trad Police if I'll still be trad??" So I did... I think most of us have had fun with...if you have..thats cool ...if not...sorry.

Ernie

I like peoples opinions and to hear what they think. Labs it is not the thread that starts the crap it is the people. If we just repect that people have the right to their opinions than there would never be a problem. I have never tried an elevated rest but I have a Schafer and I am gonna try one and also shoot plastic vanes from it, just to see if i will like it or not, it may be an option for those real rainy days. Shawn

I am also of the school that we do what we do to have fun. I further believe that if it's your bow and it makes you happy, who cares what anyone else thinks. But there does seem to be a pattern to these, "Is this traditional?" type of thread.

Someone will pose a question- often soliciting the opinions of others; e.g. "Is shooting a longbow with a trigger release 'traditional'?"

A few people will offer their opinion that they do not feel that trigger releases fall under the umbrella of "traditional" (whatever that is?)

Then eighty seven people - I refer to these people as the anything-goes cavalry - jump in and proceed to lambaste the others for offering a divergent opinion.

Then the post gets locked or pulled.

Invariably, a couple-few days later, someone will try to re-start the same topic by changing a noun. ("Is it traditional if I put sights on my recurve?"; "Are stabilizers considered traditional?")

Until someone comes up with a concrete, undisputable definition for the word "Traditional", if these posts are to have any value whatsoever, people must be permitted to offer up various and divergent opinions. Embrace the opinions that you agree with. And politely disregard the ones that you disagree with. But this predatory practice of baiting people with questions and then ridiculing them for expressing a unique or divergent opinion has got to stop!

I'm years beyond being a kid anymore, and in my experience a truism that I have come to notice is that the more defensive people become in defending their opinion, in reality, the less secure they are with their convictions.

Yes you are at risk, It is not traditional at most traditional shoots.
 I do agree it is your bow do with it as you wish and hunt with it as you wish there is no state that makes them illegal to use most cb archers must use a raised rest if you need one to get good flight which you will if you want to shoot vanes install and be happy.

Ernie my friend, I put a box of rests & stuff in the mail for you yesterday, let me know when you get it.  Bill

THanks Bill...

Labman... I agree with all you said... well said...

Rico, I have another 5 or six laying there with no rest...so if it comes to that...I'll be fine! :0)

Ernie