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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Steve B. on February 03, 2009, 09:08:00 AM
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I have what is probably an elementary question but I have not been able to find info on it.
Since wood shaft spine changes depending on which direction it is flexed, does it matter, then, how the nock is oriented in relation to the flex of the shaft and therefore which side of the shaft lays against the bow? I'm talking about a non-centershot bow.
thanks, sb
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I always set my nocks so they are perpendicular to the grain.
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On dowel shafts you should put the "flames" down the top or bottom of the shaft with the grain lines running along the sides. On hardwood shoots and cane shafts I put the stiffest side against the bow. Pat
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...for dowels that would put your nock perpendicular to the grain lines.
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Nock orientation on wood arrows is mostly a remnant of the days of cutting a slot in the shaft to serve as the nock. The slot needed to be perpendicular to the rings to avoid having the string split the shaft.
With a plastic nock, you have the opportunity to orient it so that the "flames" are least likely to become a sharp point if the arrow breaks on release. This would be with the flames pointing back on the side away from the bow.
The sides of the arrow where the rings look like lines could have a lot of run-out without showing it.
Test the spine of the shafts as it would be flexed the way you install the nocks and always check the arrows as you pull or retrieve them after the shot. Arrows don't break when released unless there is already a crack or other fault.
Reparrow man
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Safety first! Arrow groove at right angles to the butt or end grain. I have had arrows break on release. The cause is unimportant. Whether it happens because of a nick or an inherent weakness or imperfection in the wood doesn't matter. It will come apart along the grain lines. The results can be just as devastating. This becomes a safety issue so it is important to get it right. There is a top and bottom and bottom to a shaft. Unless the shaft has been milled perpendicular to the bark you'll see these >>>>>> on one side and these<<<<<<<<<
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Let me finish my though. So if you buy arrows and are a lefty you should ask your arrow maker whether he follows this rule. Jawge
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I appreciate all of your input.
So then, here's some follow up questions because I want to make sure I understand this--Is there a difference between the 'grain' and the 'rings' of a wooden shaft? Is the <<<<<<<<< the same thing as the flames? With an arrow nocked on a right-handed bow, then, should the <<<<<< that points to the bow hand be on the opposite side of the riser, so that the shooter could see it?
sb
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Steve, <<<< should be on top when the arrow is in shooting position, or as nearly so as possible in keeping with having the nock at right angles to the end grain, pointing to your bow hand. I'm not sure why you are asking about grains and rings in this case. I don't know how to answer. But it has no bearing on making an arrow. Unless you are asking about the end grain. It's this = where the nock would be glued. Groove should be perpendicular to this =. Keep asking if you need to. Jawge
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Not sure we're all on the same page here. I think Jawge's view (the age-old standard) is that those
>>>>>>>>>>>'s will be on the top of the arrow.
The cock feather orientation would than make arrows for right handed shooters upside down for left handed shooters.
I'm a contrarian by nature. I have to point out that there is virtually NO up and down force on an arrow at release.
We spine test arrows because they will be bent SIDEWAYS. That's why I put the strongest grain orientation sideways like (||).
Same reason most self bows have the rings flat across the limb--though they can be edge-grained. (My only attempt at a BL edge-grained bow blew up in tillering).
Additionally, I DO rip all my arrow stock PARALLEL to the bark.
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I was originally concerned with the variable spine issue as the arrow is rotated within it's nock but then became concerned with the safety aspect as it was brought out here. George is talking about one and Jim the other and yet the answers are overlapping.
I want to know more about arrows breaking at release but for now I want to understand if my arrows will hit in different spots if I were to rotate them, say, 90 degrees within their nock?
The reason I brought up grains/rings is because, after reading bowyers bible I/II, I realized I always thought the annual rings of the tree was the grain but apparently I was mistaken.?
So I am wondering if you guys are talking about rings or grains in describing the nock orientation.
I stained some hickory shafts and ended up with brown arrows with dark brown lines that run roughly paralell to the shaft. I am assuming that is what we're talking about when we talk about <<< or flames? But then someone mentioned "end grain" and I wondered if that is something else.
After tapering the ends of the shafts I have a bit of a hard time seeing any lines. Perhaps I will post pics.
sb
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LOL, Jim. It would appear that we are not on the same page. <<>> are the weak areas of the shaft. Since, as you mentioned, most forces are sideways on the arrow on release, that's why you don't want them on the side but on top. Points to your hand. If the shaft breaks it will break up and away from your hand. Good discussion. :) Jawge
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I have no first hand experience with arrows breaking at release...so, my thoughts are purely hypothetical.
To Steve B.'s concern about varying spine with orientation of the growth rings, it's certainly possible. I spine test my shafts in the same position they will flex on release. You should do the same, no matter which way you orient the rings in relation to the nock.
With hickory shafts, you will never have one break that is not already damaged from hitting a hard target.
Jim
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Jim and Steve, i spine my shafts that way too which is with the end grain straight up i.e. like this. I read about people rotating the nock position to control spine issues and that raises a red flag for safety reasons as I explained above. I hear that alot. I was taught to position the index of the nock so that it is pointing in the same direction as these<<<< and they should be on the top of the arrow when the arrow is in shooting position. Yes, Steve, <<< these are the flames that were mentioned above. They are actually called reeds and are the weakest parts of the shaft. If a shaft breaks on release, it will break there but up and away from you if done correctly. After a lifetime of on and off shooting, 1000's of arrows a year, I've only had 2 or so shafts break in the air on release but it has happened. In the final analysis everyone will do what they want to do which is fine with me. I don't know what else to say that I haven't said already but questions are welcomed. Yes, I am a stickler for safety. Ask my former chem students. :) Jawge
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Let's try this again. I spine like this |||
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Got it. As usual, I have made complex a rather simple subject. So you put the end grain up in the spine tester because there it flexes up and down. You put the end grain horizontal on the bow because there it flexes side to side?
thank you, sb
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"So you put the end grain up in the spine tester because there it flexes up and down. " Yes and that's usually the strongest spine.
"You put the end grain horizontal on the bow because there it flexes side to side?" Yes and no. It does flex that way but you want these pointing <<<< toward your hand when the arrow is in shooting position. That's the real reason for locating the nick groove at right angles to the end grain. :) Jawge
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Steve, <<<< should be on top when the arrow is in shooting position,
George,
I believe you have this wrong also. The >>>>> (rift) on top of the arrow should be pointing away from you when it is in the shooting position. This is so that if the arrow breaks the back half of the arrow will go up and away from your bow hand.
I don't want to be argumentive, it's not my intention, but this is a safety issue and I wanted to clarify what I believe to be correct.
Regards
Jeff
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Steve.
I believe your confussion about grain and rings, (mine too) can be answered like this, though correct me if I'm wrong anyone. The ring is the concentric circle that comes with each cycle of new growth each year. We see this ring when we cut across a log. This ring runs vertically up the length of the log and it is this vertical run that we see as grain. Imagine a cardboard tube as a ring and then imagine a whole bunch of tubes of different sizes one inside the other and then slice this group of tubes down the middle and you have the vertical grain. Now because the wood is made of long fibers they can twist and move as natures forces work on the tree such as wind, rain, snow, and sunlight, thus giving us the varied patters of grain.
I hope this helps and is my understanding of the two items, grain and rings. If I am wrong, and it has been known to happen just ask my wife, then please somebody correct me.
Tony
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Tony,
Thanks for addressing my question. Yes, that is what I am confused about. I have yet to build a bow so I have not looked into this issue that I thought I read about in the bowyer's bible, which is that there is a difference between the annual rings and the grain. I had planned to take a class on building and was going to get it sorted out there. In the mean time, I am wondering if this same issue applies to arrows.
If the strength and structure of wood is really in the grain, and not the orientation of the rings, then that would make a difference in both bows and arrows, I would think.??
So, potentially, I could be orienting my arrows via the rings while the grain is running in some other direction, a direction that might be better suited turned in a different direction.
I'm not sure I am following your tube analogy, unless your are simply drawing a picture of what the annual rings look like inside a tree? I am still confused about the grain.
sb
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yes the tubes are an analogy of what the grain/rings look like in the tree. They really are the same thing just being viewed from different perspectives. Wood splits along the grain and when an arrow breaks it will most likely really split along a grain line. That is why george is saying put the <<<< on top of the bow. If you look at an arrow or dowel you can see where the grain runs along the length of the arrow on both side and will often run out the side of the arrow. Where the two sides of the grain meet at the run out you get the <<<< or flame look as someone described it. It is not the strength of the wood that you need worry about but the normal way in which it will fail, and that is along the grain line. If an arrow had perfectly straight grain with no run outs then you would just see straight lines down 2 sides of the arrow and smooth wood on the other 2 sides. nock would be cut perpendicular to the rings in the end and the smooth "side" would face up and down. Good luck finding a doz of those arrows.
Hope this helps some. If anybody has something to add please do.
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I think I get what you are saying. So the cardboard tubes do not sit perfectly even inside each other, perfectly parallel. Each tube is tipped slightly in one direction or the other inside the next tube and therefore not parallel with the outside of the tree. So when a board, or arrow, is cut out roughly parallel to the outside of the tree then the sections of tubes that are cutout with it will be something other than parallel with the edge of the board?
So the "lean" of the annual rings relative to each other, and relative to the longitudinal slices of the tree, represents the grain?
I do understand George's explanation of the flames and the breaking point of the arrow.
Thanks again,
Steve
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I am so confused by the <<<<< and the >>>>>> what if they run like this ^? Where is your hand in relation to the <<<< and wich end is the front and which end is the back? Maybee i am confusing myself. A picture with an arrow with something to refernce in it would be greatly benificial. I have a dozen dowels that i am going to make arrows with but am kinda scared about having this backwards and stuffing a piece of wood into my hand. Thanks
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Killer,
That's the one thing that I do understand. Think of the arrow as having four sides, top/bottom, and sides. The lines running along the "sides" are roughtly parallel lines, the lines on top and bottom form points, or flames. When you get done building your arrow and you place it on your bow, the top of the arrow should have those points or flames pointing in the direction of your target, or bow hand.
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Thanks Steve , that actually clears up some of my confussion. Together we may all come out of this a whole lot smarter or in need of a stiff drink.
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I think i get it now.
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That's pretty funny stuff, for a minute I thought I was confused!
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<<<<<< flames on top. Is all you need to know.
If we shoot better than this you should be shooting carbon.