I will take alot grief over this but , it hurts bowhunting period. I was fortunate to hunt a area that is bowhunting only , not atv or 4 wheelers...all I can say is , in this 10 point or better area it was a noticable difference, So what do the rest of yall think? thanks..no right or wrong just spiining the yarn . :)
Yes
Mark, The only time we allow 4 wheelers or any motorized vehicles on our club is during work details or to recover shot animals. Any other time its foot traffic only. Pat
A pickup towing a trailer with a couple of ATV's and 10 50# bags of bait heading north on I-75 in Michigan in the fall is a common sight. Just how a lot of guy chose to "hunt" these days. I blame that on the TV shows.
They run everywhere here. I guess the deer are used to them. There are places where they are not allowed.
I can only say YES - anything else get my blood boilin....
I think it's easy to blame ATV's. I own one, but do not use it while hunting. They do provide better access, albeit noisy which can be a problem. From what I've seen on our lease, deer become accustomed to all traffic in general. Give me a responsible hunter using an ATV over a slob hunter on foot anyday. Irresponsible hunters in general, whether on foot, auto, or ATV is what spoils hunting.
Bob
Yes and no. At our camp in Michigan, the ATV's have turned some of the old leaf covered logging roads into big mud holes. That's my biggest gripe.
They are useful, though. Pulling the deer out of the woods is handy, and father has lost a lot of mobility because of parkinson's, so he can get out to his stand more easily.
YES>>YES>>YES. I cant stand them alot of it is thier owners, some folks use them as you would a 4WD truck,I dont see alot wrong with that as long as they stay on open roads. but around here most run rampant
yes I hunt a thirty acre parcel that is on a corner of two roads I have noticed that the deer are not affected by vehicles on the road..
but the atv's and dirtbikes that frequent the road (which are not allowed but with a special permit) they very frequently make the deer more nervous and most of the time they take off running instantly. when hunting in this are i see deer everytime I am out there during bow only season (october 1-nov 14) but the atvs seem to disappear during the rifle seasons and muzzeloader season and I typically only see a few deer that are not running as fast as they can go during that time.
just my two cents..
Yes.
Most people use them, because their lazy.
Yes, I see them here on public land were there not allowed way to often.
I own an atv. When I go hunting it usually stays at home. Sometimes I might use it to get a deer out of the woods. Other than that I use it for food plots, spraying, hauling stands and other stuff, usually before hunting season. I don't drive mine all over the woods.
David
Have you ever witnessed the affect that an airboat has on waterfowl?
Thats pretty much what 4-wheelers do to game, panics them. I prefer to hunt calm animals, not alerted ones.
I guess it just depends on how big your ranch is... Our lease is about 6 miles deep. If I couldn't use a UTV It would take along time to walk to my stand every morning
wingman at least the ducks have the sky! :) ..more than deer have.. :)
I just shake my head when I see the ATV with a bow in a bow rack. :rolleyes:
I don't like them. I'm 41, my knees and back hurt. But I still prefer to use the quads that God gave me. I'm probably generalizing here, so please forgive me for that, but it seems there's a lot more stand and blind hunters in the mid west and back east than out here in the west. If you need to use the quads for access or what not, and park them away and finish the walk in, I don't see a problem with that. But what I see out here is the quad with the bow or rifle in the rack and guys using that quad as a road hunting spot and stalk tool. I just don't like that. To me it disturbs the peace of what I'm looking for in my hunting experience.
The club I belong to, Wilderness Unlimited, bans atv's from their leased lands. They also close the roads on the properties during some seasons. This forces folks to get out and hunt without pressuring the animals too much with atv and four wheel drive noise.
Now, as a ranch, property tool or a fun toy in the approved areas, that's where I like them. But not in my hunting area.
I own them and i use'em. Sometimes i take it with me and some times i don't. I'm not goina beat my truck up to get to some of the places that i hunt. ATV's aren't the problem, its the owners-operators....
Yes!
Yes I think they hurt hunting. I especially dislike the noise factor. I don't know why they couldn't muffle them so we could share the woods more peacefully. I hunt near trails for dirtbikes and they sound like chainsaws on wheels. Lovely way to spend some times in the woods.
I hunt a lot in a WMA just a short drive from my home. I have found that the people that own ATV's and dirt bikes tend to be a problem. I have had on one particular afternoon this past fall 6 diffrent ATV's and dirt bikes pass not 30 yards from my stand. I have complained to my NJ State Game Warden because ANY motorised vehicle is illigal to operate on a WMA. He is one of the state officials who can put a stop to this type of law breaking from happening by simply ENFORCING THE EXISTING LAW! So far the State of NJ officials have done nothing as far as I can see. I hunted that WMA yesterday with my son. There was several day old snow on the ground. Everywhere we went there were ATV tracks. Even in areas where there wasn't a dirt road but even up in the hills where there are only game trails.
So who would you blame for what is happening on this particular WMA? I put full blame on the lawless owners of these ATV's and the gutless law enforcement officials who are sworn to protect the states public lands from people breaking the laws on the game lands. All my complaints have come to nothing. At times I have had no one answer the phones at the office where these things are supposed to be reported! I'm glad to see that the tax money I pay every time I buy something hunting related not to mention the taxes I have taken from my pay checks every week are being used to pay these incompetiant burrocrats their salaries.
To answer your question.... YES. No excuses. They are a tool, but nearly none of the people who have one use it responsably. If it were up to me, I would corral them into non-public lands. Idaho is mostly public and that would solve the problem here pronto.
Mike
YES
YES
yes!! public land here in arkansas is being ruined by these so called handicap access trails,there everywhere on our wma's & they are being abused mostly by a bunch of lard a$$e$ that have went to their local family dr's & told them that their back hurts,or their toe hurts etc...& have gotten their handicap passes,which now makes them legal to easily access areas that i have to work my butt to get to get to..... mostly a bunch of lazy crossbow shootin lard a$$E$!!!!!!!
I own one as does most of the people I gun hunt with in WV. We have a rule. They stay in our "ATV Parking lot" until lunch. Any deer we get in the morning lie until noon when we get the ATV's out to recover the deer. ALot of people stay in the stand and say they see more deer because we take the ATV's out.
Then the ATV's get parked again until dark when we pull out any afternoon deer taken.
Seems to work.
yes they do hurt bowhunting...That is why I will be signing warrants Tuesday for the arrest of five punk ATV riders I caught on my property.
I have often wondered why hunters (lack of a better word) buy very expensive 4X4 trucks and pull an expensive ATV behind them to go hunting.
They never get their trucks dirty and ride the ATV all through the woods to their stand.
What am I missing?
four wheelers are a great tool for people with disabilities but the law are for every one to fallow
No and NO! It ain't the ATV or any other vehicle. It is the individual running them. Take them away and they WILL find a way back into the woods and they will find a way to screw with ya. Hunting and in particualr bow hunting has become "cool in a certain crust of our society. Shooting a stick has become even cooler in many circles. The 'tude' is whats getting to you is the bottom line.
I know that ATV's have there place and I certainly understand that most ATV owners undoubtedly use these vehicles reponsibly. Still, I am not a big fan of ATV's because of what I've seen from some of the irresponsible users. Besides designated wilderness areas where no wheeled vehicles are allowed, I wish that our game department would designate at least a few game management units where ATV's were not allowed during the archery hunting seasons.
I have owned an ATV ever since they came about. I use them at and around my home for a wide variety of chores. I also use them prior to and during hunting season. There are many times it sets on the truck until I need it AND, there are many times I ride it in and lock it up until I'm ready to head out.
There is NOTHING wrong with ATV's if they are used properly. HOWEVER' there is something wrong with SLOBS riding around with a bow or gun in their lap for hours on end calling themselves 'hunters'.
Just another case of "slobs" or "idiots" giving hunters a bad name.
Recurve. others...
devils advocate here. I am against using a quad when hunting even though I own one for work. That said...I am not blaming the conservation warden, the cops, the government...no none of those. I blame us and those like us. We allow these things to happen. It is our responsibility to obey the law. It is our responsibility to do what we can to alert the law and to turn in the lawless. If we don't do it...we get what we deserve.
We....allow it to happen. Not the cops....not the wardens. Of course....its not MY job ..right..
ChuckC
YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES! YES!
Nuf Said!
Of course without properly operated ATV`s and AIRBOATS the reality, especially on public land, is everyone would be piled up within a half mile of the parking area. Heck, why not leave the truck at home and walk to your hunting area, thats traditional.
I love the knee jerk reaction to ATV`s and AIRBOATS. When the reality is the operators are the ones causing the problems. ANd what percentage of the total are causing the problems. But it`s easier to blame the vehicle than hold anyone accountable for their actions.
It never ceases to amaze me how we fight amongst ourselves wether it be longbows and compounds, ATV and walking, flintlock muzzleloaders and inlines.
Get over yourselves with the holier than thou , I`m trad to the end opinion of yourselves and for the heck of it lighten up.
I have owned one for years and use it for many things including getting my deer out of the woods. I dont use it to get to my stands, I always walk, but in general I notice that it does not bother the deer at all unless you drive right up on them.
we use 4 wheelers for recreational riding on my property outside of hunting season...just a few trails that cover the entire property. i don't use them going to/from my stand during the season, just to "drag" the deer. over the years, the deer have gotten a bit used to them. i've ridden up on deer many times and they just stand there and look at me....if i stop, they'll run.
i can't say that ATV traffic has hurt my hunting.
atv's have caused a LOT of damage to land i hunt, i disslike them very much. i enjoy the walk to my stands and i enjoy the blood, sweat and tears of putting up stands and dragging deer without the use of them. i will go no farther here as it is a sore subject with me.
Hate 'em.
They tear up the land and crush small critters. If I am back in a nice quiet spot that I took the time to walk to, the last thing I need is some fool flailing by me on some motorized something. So I hunt where they are not allowed. If one comes by me, I will try to grab a photo and report it.
My parcel is not over six miles deep, so I can walk into almost any part of it, spike camp or whatever. I usually don't go far, though, because I am a lazy old lady who likes her Mr. Buddy heater.
Killdeer
I dont know how cotton-pickin airboats got in here...they are not a problem ...but how many times do you see little young , many times too young driving 4 wheelers all over the neighbor hood, parents spoiling there kids rotten letting them ride in an matter that is not law worthy!!!! too many times for me...now replace the jet ski with the airboat , thats topic for another site for fisherman ...LOL...parents in many cases are the problem...not being responisble...just my 2 cents... :)and considering others ...
We use them to get to our stand locations on the ranch and IMHO I dont see where it botheresd then a bit..if you use the silencers like we do..the BENZ Ive driven within 15 yda of them without them realizing Im there..irresponsible riders can a do hurt it though I believe
No, here where I live, on the Appalachian trail Federal land and adjacent State Parks, they don't hurt us at all because they left. 1.The land here is not very kind to any kind of wheeled travel: Too rocky, rooty, and steep. 2.We either locked the few remaining access points with boulders and deadfalls, or, as a very last resort, we made the ATV riders an offer they couldn't refuse ;)
there's no excuse for them.
No.
hnh
Yes. They certainly disturb the piece. They're smelly. They damage the woods. And where I hunt, ATV "hunters" run ruffshod through public lands, which is illegal.
But the biggest problem with ATVs as it relates to hunting is that the machines severely reduce animals' sanctuary-- places they can go to get away from hunting pressure. There's virtually no place that animals can go that people with ATVs can't get at them. Take the slob off the ATV, he may still be a slob, but he's much less likely to be a threat to the animals he's "hunting." But it's not just the slobs. Even people who use the machines responsibly use them to get where they couldn't or wouldn't go on foot, therby continually shrinking the hunted sanctuary/secure areas. The ultimate result, of course, is reduced game populations first, then reduced hunting opportunities second.
I agree with what Chuck C said above when he says that We deserve what we get if we do nothing to report the lawless to the proper athorities.
But the problem I have here in NJ is that I have made several personel reports to out Game Warden face to face. Nothing has happened to curb the Lawless ATV riders. I have on more than one or two occasions called my Regional NJ Div of Fish and Wildlife and had no one answer the phone during working hours! This is unexcepitable to me and other hunters that hunt in this WMA I have spoken to about this ATV problem. The law says that ATV's or any other motorized vehicles are prohibited....PERIOD!
We hunters pay a lot of money for equipment, licence fees and fees for permits. If it wasn't for the hunters and their money there would be NO WMA's for people to hunt, fish, hike, bird watch, cross country ski....etc etc ect.
All I would like to see is the people who are paid a salary to ENFORCE THE LAW do just that and get rid of the people who are tearing up the public lands with these ATV's and dirt bikes.
I am not against anyone that ownes one of these vehicles as long as they are being used in a legal way. If those of you use one on private land that is your business as to how you operate your ATV. In the posts above those of you that use ATV's seem to be using them to have some kind of limited impact to the areas you are hunting. I have no gripe with you folks.
ATV's and dirt bikes are tools that need to used properly in accordance to the law of the land. Unfortunatly there are those people who miss use tools. Kind of like using a hammer to screw in a screw.
I know that this thread was asking the simple question "Do ATV's or 4 wheelers hurt your bow hunting area?"
My answer is YES it does harm my hunting since I hunt on a WMA.
YES
Total Land destruction every where they go.
Tread lightly is a foreign concept to the owners.
QuoteOriginally posted by Orion:
Yes. They certainly disturb the piece. They're smelly. They damage the woods. And where I hunt, ATV "hunters" run ruffshod through public lands, which is illegal.
But the biggest problem with ATVs as it relates to hunting is that the machines severely reduce animals' sanctuary-- places they can go to get away from hunting pressure. There's virtually no place that animals can go that people with ATVs can't get at them. Take the slob off the ATV, he may still be a slob, but he's much less likely to be a threat to the animals he's "hunting." But it's not just the slobs. Even people who use the machines responsibly use them to get where they couldn't or wouldn't go on foot, therby continually shrinking the hunted sanctuary/secure areas. The ultimate result, of course, is reduced game populations first, then reduced hunting opportunities second.
I think this pretty much sum's up my opinion on em. They have there place. Buzzing around the woods during hunting season is not one of them.
JL
They use to bother me quite a bit, made me furious a couple times, but I've learned to adapt over the years and now use thier rambling, smelly ways to my advantage,they can't go everywhere, the deer know this and head to their little sanctuaries when they hear the first hint of one, find the sanctuaries and you'll find the deer, don't know how many times I've seen deer walk out into an open field just minutes after an atv has left it, and then there is the mis-direction factor, while the deer are concerned with the noisy, smelly, aliens in the woods over there, they don't even notice my quiet scentless butt getting closer from the other way, adaptability is what makes us the ultimate predator,use everything in the woods to your advantage, even the things you don't like, a lot of us have no choice but to share our hunting grounds with them.
To those who say it is NOT the atvs.... it is, and it is the "slobs" who over utilize them as well. Just like a full size truck, if one fella uses an atv the next guy along will follow his trail and so forth until the area is TORN UP. Honestly, and I know they can be good tools, and some, if not all of you use them wisely, atvs disgust me. So do snowmobiles, big, overdone hunting trucks....
My .02
Mike
I dont have a problem with them, I dont have one and I dont know what I do if I did. The only thing that bugs me is when I drop off a ridge and ninja creep down to a closed logging road only to have them round the corner and blow out my area...The least they could do is give me a lift back to the main road so I dont have to hump it back to the top. :)
Yes and No. Depends on who, what, where, how, why.
Yes, to the same extent that guns kill people I guess.
Lenny
Our country is dry and ruts created by vehicles-any vehicle-have a tendency to wash gullies when-if-we get rain or snow melt. Just outside of town is the side of a mountain without a stitch of vegetation due to vehicles trying to gain the top. Three years ago I was in the Arc Dome wilderness and drove to the end of an authorized forest service road, parked. I crossed the fence and went striaght up for about half mile and began seeing deer. Had a couple of respectable 3X3's near the crest as i went back to t he truck. The next afternoon I drove back expecting to hunt solo on the top. Someone had cut the fence and driven a quad to the top, through the only spring on that side of the mountain and generally all over. No deer that eve or any other for us. Slobs on wheels in this case. not all are abusive, but the numbers that are seem to outnumber those who aren't. Isn't Dave Petersen working this issue?
The woods I hunt and camp we have to go through a 1000 plus acre rice farm with one main road and many levees.The farmer allows no trucks on the road or levees.He leases app. 20 duck blinds and his hunters and us app. 10 club members have to park our trucks at a large barn and equip area 1 1/2 from the camp and my hunting woods are another 1 1/2mile more then we enter a bottomland palmetto swamp that my fartherest stand is another 1/2 mile inside of some of the nastiest realestate you ever saw sometimes 2'deep of water.I would like to bring any one on this thread to hunt for a weekend.I promise after you walk in for one hunt you will be asking for a ride way before the weekend is over.The bike is my truck I have to carry everything in with it.I guess the rest you walk from you house to hunting area no matter how far.Kip
QuoteOriginally posted by Starkman:
I think it's easy to blame ATV's. I own one, but do not use it while hunting. They do provide better access, albeit noisy which can be a problem. From what I've seen on our lease, deer become accustomed to all traffic in general. Give me a responsible hunter using an ATV over a slob hunter on foot anyday. Irresponsible hunters in general, whether on foot, auto, or ATV is what spoils hunting.
Bob
Pretty much sums it up!!
Orion :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I hate to sound like Tred Barta but as long as something makes hunting easier it will sell and will keep the lazy in the game.
Unquestionably yes.
I'm coming in on this thread late, but here's my 2 pennies worth: Certainly, where and how we hunt makes a lot of difference on how we think about many aspects, tools, and ethics of hunting. I hunt western public lands, mostly for elk but other game too. Been here and doing it for half my life time, which is getting quite long. And what I can say absolutely is that I have lost every single last one of my hard-won easy-access elk honey holes on public lands to the motorized invasion. Used to be a local could drive before daylight up many many national forest roads, park, walk half a mile or so uphill to get away from the easy-access mobs, and get into little-disturbed game and great hunting. Or, more important, "hunt of a lifetime" nonresidents could come west and camp alongside those same forest roads and walk out and get into game. And beyond the presence and relaxed nature of game, there are equally important aspects of hunting -- like a feeling of being in a wild, natural place; the ability to hear an elk bugle half a mile away, a turkey gobble a quarter-mile away, and know the are REAL. Bird song, silence, peace, personal restoration and spirituality ... the motorized take-over of our public lands already has or quickly is killing all of this. I live to hunt elk and have sacrificed more than most folks could ever understand to live in a place where wildness still lives. So has my wife, on my behalf. I have zero tolerance for "Me first! Me now! modern so-called hunters who can't or won't walk, won't work, have endless excuses and think of nothing and nobody but themselves. ATVs should not be allowed on public lands anywhere a regular vehicle can't legally and physically go. I try hard to be polite and understanding and "reasonable," but this whose stupid lazy sub-mentality is ruining my life. America is growing soft and lazy, and hunting along with it. Dave
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
"ATVs should not be allowed on public lands anywhere a regular vehicle can't legally and physically go." I totally agree. I am all for those law abiding citizens that use ATV's legally and for private use. They have their place. Unfotunately, there are too many ATVers that love to go off road and destroy habitat. Years ago, my father and I had to walk a good hour and a half to get to this fine elk spot we located. This place was amazing. One year I called in eleven bulls within fourteen days. One of those bulls, a nice 6X6 fell to one of my father's arrows. The place was a mini elk paradise, two years after my father shot that bull, we walked up to the old ribcage and what was parked right along side the old carcass? An ATV. The place completely went to crap. The elk disappeared. It was as if they were never there. The elk simply would not tolerate having a motorized vehicle invading their home. I wish they were outlawed on western public land. T
Thank you Dave. As always, you drive the nail right where it should be, with just one swift hit. I'm forever grateful that
you've showed me your Public Land Wapiti honey holes, and I remember I was almost crying with joy when the little Eastern Newbie hunter that I am saw these huge antlers materializing in the bright blue Western skies for the first time in my life. Also, I was almost crying of rage when we passed by so-called "camps" with $100.000 RV's, 4 or5 top-of-the-line camo ATV's parked in line next to them, and "hunters" doing more doughnuts and figure 8's on their redneckmobiles around their remote-controlled "outdoor fireplace", than actual Elk Hunting in OUR National Forest, OURS, we the people. Pathetic.
My opinion is right in line with Dave's. Every area I use to hunt, where I only had to walk a mile or less was ruined by ATV's.
I have sat on ridge tops watching the sun rise or fall on many occasions. During these times, I could see trucks and ATV's drive along roads well below me. Interestingly, I could only hear the ATV's on most occasions when I was only 1/2 mile from the road. They ARE LOUD.
In addition, on almost every occassion, while watching deer or elk, the sound of ATV's made them leave the area. The animals DO NOT get accostomed to ATV's out West. They may get use to them out East or in the midwest but anywhere out West, if there are ATV's within a mile, the animals are either non-existant or very spooky. Bottom line, ATV's are not good for hunting and have taken over. To say they are necessary is being the lazy Americans we have become.
And sorry for one last gripe, but I blame the ATV's on the holes and ruts in the roads. There was almost no road I couldn't get my truck down 5-8 years ago. Now with the ATV's and their ability to go on these roads way before they should be, they create deep holes closer together that make driving a truck on them almost impossible. No wonder our public roads are in so much need of repairs.
To me atv's have there place,but not on public land.I use mine from time to time on private land I hunt.After my 2nd back operation I had to make some changes in my hunting.In N.C. it is against the law to use them on public land.Most people follow the law around here.
Never hunted out west and was surprized to hear they allow them on public land.I would be against that as I'm sure it would cause lots of problems.
here in ohio anyone caught riding one in the state forest are,either on or off road will have their atv confiscated on the spot and impounded by the forest rangers.zero tolerance , in Shawnee State Forest.i agree,elk will not tolerate atv's,whitetail here on my place could care less,when they here my atv its like ringing the dinner bell cause i'm usually filling feeders and checking fence.(livestock)whew!!!
The use of ATV`s here in Michigan is fairly restricted on public land. If a trail is not posted "OPEN" then it is closed. That being said,
abuse and disregard for the law is rampant.
Nothing like the warm fuzzy feeling you get when you hike a mile into a "foot travel only" area, and have three quads zoom by you. And they look at you as if YOU are an idiot.
They definitely affect deer movement, especially if the ATV traffic is regular. The deer will pattern the ATV movement and avoid it. Now, if that means that the deer are now avoiding your hunting area as a result, then the answer is yes, it does hurt bowhunting.
Atv's are what you make of them. If you have a responsible person operating them and using them for thier intended purpose while in the hunting woods then there ia not problem. Here in Nova Scotia they have as much right to be on Crown land as we do. If they are on private property without permission then no they are not welcome. I personally have no gripe against them, mainly because there are few plases the average "Joe" can ride them. As long as they are being operated responsibly. My 2 cents
I tried to avoid this post and the earlier post on baiting because the subject depresses me. However, I decided I have to post my opinion as I don't think ATV use impacts on my day to day hunting is ATV's biggest threat. The following is not intended to criticize any individuals but is my impression of hunting's image to the non-hunting public and why I think how "hunters" use ATVs (amoung other things) damage bowhunting and hunting in general.
When I began hunting in the early 1970's, hunters were generally presented by the main stream media as rugged outdoorsmen who were willing to work hard to be successful. Watch the film clips of Fred Bear from the period as an example as these were regularly shown on major market TV stations at the time (at least here in Michigan). Today, the main stream media generally portray hunters as fat lazy ignorant slobs that take joy in killing things and will do anything to accomplish this goal. They are portrayed as backwards and unenlightened at best, or as a villain at the worst.
Hunters blame this change in the media's attitude (and of the non-hunting public's attitude) on the anti's but they are wrong. It's our own fault. It is hunter's growing and continued reliance on ATVs, baiting, shooting enclosures, high tech weapons (compound bows, in-line muzzle loaders, military style rifles, etc.), high tech hunting aids (electronic sighting devices, hearing aids, game callers, automatic feeders, field communications, night vision devices, etc.), and a willingness to pay guides to provide the hunting skills and do the work for you (or worse to pay to "hunt" pen raised animals in an enclosure), that have caused the change in hunter's image. These items are viewed by the non-hunting public as substitutes for skill and effort, and reinforce their view that hunters are fat lazy ignorant slobs that take joy in killing things.
Hunters' statements that "the only way I can access the good hunting area is with an ATV" or "when I went to Texas and found all the successful hunters baited is when I decided baiting was alright" show the non-hunting public hunters are willing to adjust their ethics (or cheat) to accomplish their goal of killing things. Hunters' image to the non-hunting public will continue to suffer until we as hunters start portraying hunting as something that takes skill and effort to be successful at, and openly criticizing those that seek shortcuts.
In my opinion, it is time to stop worrying about quantity of hunters because that battle is lost (there will never be enough hunters to outvote the non-hunters). We need to do something about how we hunt and what we call hunting (i.e., how we talk about hunting and what we watch on TV) to change the non hunting publics opinion on hunting if hunting as recreational pursuit is going to survive.
Blaine: Right on! :clapper: :clapper: :clapper:
Hooray.... I personally agree with every word stated by Blaine. I know it is gonna cause teeth gnashing but there it is...plain and simple.
We have met the enemy....and it is us.
ChuckC
Don't just say "western" public land. Here in Pennsylvania (Allegheny National Forest) we don't have elk to be driven away, but places beyond the sound of engines have become a precious rarity. Your complaints about ATV impact in the west apply doubly in the east.
Blaine...very insightful! I wish more hunters could see things that way. The big tent is killing us. Slobs are slobs, and I want no company with them. Give them the tools (ATV's) to be bigger slobs, and they will. And they will unfortunately also get the support from those unwilling to stand for something, anything goes cause' it's legal (or should be cause I can't do it any other way), divided we fall, crowd.
This is'nt a "tude", but a genuine concern for the future of hunting, of the resource, and of the wildlife we so dearly love.
ATV's have had mostly detrimental effects on my quality hunting experiences.
Someone said it earlier....slobs are slobs, but now they get around in alot more places than they did before ATV's.
Thank you Mark Baker, thank you Reg Darling, thank you David Petersen, thank you last arrow/Blaine.
you guys said what I and lots of other people think, I'm sure. but we don't have the eloquence to formulate these thoughts into such great sentences
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Alex...great point! :)
YES!
Dennis
Blaine, you wouldn't consider running for president would you? You nailed it for me! Perfect.
Blaine, you said it brother...
I'm with dave2old. ATVs are the biggest threat we have related to hunting in the past 10yrs. My honey holes are gone and I am hiking deeper and deeper to get into good hunting.It would be nice to get a handle on this problem now. I can walk ouside and see scars all over the valley , it's a nightmare that is out of control. So yes ATVs hurt my bowhunting area greatly.
What we should do then is take all the motorized vehicles and get rid of them and either ride a horse or walk...?
yes, Larry, to do with the hunting side of it, WALK!!! if you were trying to be smart obvisiouly we need cars, trucks and even ATV's for daily work.
Sorry Blaine, I agree with what you said but I totally disagree with the reasons why.
"Today, the main stream media generally portray hunters as fat lazy ignorant slobs that take joy in killing things and will do anything to accomplish this goal. They are portrayed as backwards and unenlightened at best, or as a villain at the worst."
Hunters are portrayed that way not because that is the way the majority act, it is because the meain stream media now has an AGENDA that is anti hunting. If you think for one minute that this will change because we outlaw 4 wheelers or certain equipment, you are sadly mistaken. They will simply move on to the next thing until hunting is completely outlawed.
The fact of the matter is, there have always been "slob" hunters and there always will be. This is becuase there have always been "slob" people and as long as some of those people hunt it is going to carry over. The only difference is that now we have ALLOWED the media to define us. Worse yet is that we have some among us that are more than willing to agree with them, thinking this will appease them.
Make NO mistake about it. To an anti hunter or to the media that is willingly furthering their agenda, there is no "ethical" hunting. They will continue to chip away at whatever they feel they can get some agreement on and then move on to the next thing until it is all gone. Sooner or later we will all look back, scratch our heads and say "WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED?? I THOUGHT THEY AGREED WITH ME?
Does anyone honestly thing for one minute that HSUS cares HOW an animal is killed by a hunter, or how he got to his hunting spot? Do you think for one minute that they admire us because we walked, or because our arrows are made of wood? No offense, but if you honestly believe that, enjoy it while you can because you have just handed them the victory they so desperately want.
Lenny
I'd like to add something else to the discussion. I'm 58. I've had one neck surgery and may need another if I live long enough. I have two bad discs in my lower back. I'm recovering from a torn bicep and I don't even know how the heck I did it. My legs and heart are still strong, so I'm still able to roam freely, but the number of years left of that ability are scarily finite. Unless something else gets me first, the day will come when I won't be able to head down into the valley and up to the ridgetop on the other side on a whim. When that time arrives the solution won't be an ATV. I'll adapt my hiking, my hunting, and my desires. Age and infirmity are not injustices to be redressed with technology--they are opportunities for spiritual and psychological growth.
Reg, I'm a little older than you so I'll probably reach that point before you do, but I'm in the same boat, physically and intellectually. Well said.
I agree with Lenny. I was just about to write the same thing when I read his post. The media doesn't hate us because we're slob hunters, they hate us because we are HUNTERS. It's not because our ranks have changed, even if they have, it's because their ranks have changed. We could be a homogonous group of angelic sportsmen with the ethics of Pope, Young, Audobon, Muir all rolled into one and they'd still find fault with us. Recreational hunters are the reason these people have anywhere to go to mountain bike, hike, or any other outdoor activity outside of a city park. We are the reason they see most of the wildlife they do see when they are out there. Teddy Roosevelt was a hunter, he started the National Park service, Audobon was a hunter, Muir was a hunter. Our license fees bought and improved the habitat long before it was trendy to be "green". We reintroduced species that had wiped out and encouraged populations of species that persisted. Yet they still hate us. I won't go into the why of it, that's better suited for the Politics forum (as I feel this whole thread is).
One thing to keep in mind is that not all ATV and offroaders are hunters. We share some of that blame with the recreational BMX, motorcross, atv crowd as well. So don't be pinning the hunting crowd with more than our share of guilt.
Talondale: "We could be a homogonous group of angelic sportsmen with the ethics of Pope, Young, Audobon, Muir all rolled into one and they'd still find fault with us."
We don't know that because we never have been. The point is that a lot of current hunting behaviors are offensive to others, and if we don't demonstrate those behaviors, the media can't report them.
Good point re not all ATV users being hunters. All the more reason to distinguish ourselves from that crowd in a positive way.
Orion:
"We don't know that because we never have been. The point is that a lot of current hunting behaviors are offensive to others, and if we don't demonstrate those behaviors, the media can't report them."
There are many good, ethical hunters out there that demonstrate the qualities that you and I both agree with yet the media CHOOSES to report the bad things. This is because of their predominantly anti hunting agenda. If the media were clammoring for good things to report about hunting, the are literally thousands upon thousands of them every year to choose from. In spite of all this, they will always resort to the cat or the duck with an arrow stuck in it story.
As long as we are willing to throw each other under the bus, they will win. It's only a matter of time before they find a picture of a cedar arrow stuck in a cat. If they can't find one they will either fabricate one or worse yet, make their own.
Be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
:campfire:
Lenny
Lenny, let me make several comments for further consideration. First, I do not believe the non-hunting public or the media has an agenda on hunting issues. They are followers in this regard. If not given a story on hunting I doubt they would report on it at all. Currently, the anti's are much more effective in influencing their views and providing those stories than hunters are. Next, hunters have not allowed the media to define us. We have allowed the slobs and profiteers to define us by saying nothing about what they are doing.
Reg, your attitude on aging is inspiring.
I'm sorry about that Ken, i guess i was being a little smart. This is a touchy subject.
Guy's don't think for a minute that because i use my atv to hunt or whatever that i haven't had somebody mess me up while in the woods some where. I've had to grit my teeth more than once and mumble something under my breath.
A lot of people ride here in our state, poeple drive here from all over the country just to ride. For the most part they are good law abiding people, and then there are some that run wild.
Even though i've had some bad experiances while hunting with some one else riding an atv near me, i won't complain about it and add fuel to the anti-fire's.
Blaine:
"First, I do not believe the non-hunting public or the media has an agenda on hunting issues."
You may well be correct about the non-hunting public but in my opinion you are being extremely naive if you think the main stream media has no agenda when it comes to hunting.
Furthermore, they DO define us by default. We can define ourselves all we want but if we have no outlet in which to tell our story, it is as if we don't have one. Our media outlets (for the most part) are no longer interested in reporting news, they now need to MAKE news. This is completely different than it was just 15 years ago. Political correctness has taken over and to a great extent, the "news" is going to reflect the opinions of owners of the outlet. Just enough opposition is allowed so they can say that they are not biased.
It's kind of like the old "if a tree falls in the woods where there is nobody there to hear it, does it really make any noise?"
Lenny
Concerning the media and what they report and how they report it reminds me of a joke. A guy seriously and constantly depressed goes to see a pschologist. The first question the doctor asks is if he watches the nightly news. The guy says yes for a solid hour every night. Then the doctor tells him to stop immediately and come back and see me in a week.
Seriously you'll have to watch the news for atleast a hour before you'll hear one good news story.Sad, disgusting, horrible stuff is news worthy not some girl scout club saved pennies and sent some sick child for a much needed operation.
"Make NO mistake about it. To an anti hunter or to the media that is willingly furthering their agenda, there is no "ethical" hunting."
Couldn't agree with you more Lenny it's the non hunting public the largest number in the equation that concerns me.
"We can define ourselves all we want but if we have no outlet in which to tell our story, it is as if we don't have one"
Oh we have great outlets. Now that you quit watching the news, watch the Outdoor Channel with a non hunting friend and then ask them what he thinks of hunters? It's hard, no dang impossible, to over come the images 90% of those shows leaves in my head much less someone who hasnt' seen or experienced the proper way to hunt.
"Political correctness has taken over and to a great extent, the "news" is going to reflect the opinions of owners of the outlet. Just enough opposition is allowed so they can say that they are not biased."
Couldn't agree with you more but it's been that way for a long time now.
I honestly think if the true sportsmen and women don't unite and clean up our standards we are doomed. I cringe everytime I hear the statement if it's legal than I'm all for it. I know my behind is getting a little wet standing under the big tent and its already coming in over my boots.
This makes one think, this was good one!
I agree with LC that we have excellent media outlets for hunting. Not only does the outdoor life channel show hunting content, Foxsports and ESPN 1 & 2 occassionally do to. The problem is that this content is primarily marketing for the sponsers. It generally does not provide a true view of what hunting is about, why we hunt or the benifits of hunting (economicaly, to wildlife or spiritually). This is what hunters need to influence.
Note that ESPN is owned by ABC (Disney), viewed by most as a large media outlet with an "agenda". ESPN's occasional hunting programming makes me think that ABC's agenda is not to eliminate hunting but to make money by provideing "entertainment programing". They will air what people watch and what advertisers will pay for to meet this goal. Like any other coorporation, they will adjust thier "agenda" to achieve thier profit goals. We hunters need to use that "agenda" to our advantage. The antis are.
Companies like Ford GM and Toyota (as an example) love hunters becuase they buy high profit 4x4 trucks. Thier advertising dollers does influence the media outlets and can when it comes to hunting. Hopefully someone smarter than me will figure out how we can use this advantage.
It seems ironic to me that hunters, who are often the victim of erroneous stereotype, do not hesitate to assign an equally erroneous global condemnation to another group such as atv users.
Lenny made a strong point that was glossed over when he compared the rationale of blaming atvs to the rationale of blaming guns. Both are hunks of steel that require a human to operate. By themselves, they are incapable of the attrocities attributed to them. Blaming cars for traffic is as one dimensional and makes about as much sense.
Laws exist for the responsible use of atvs. What we need is consistent enforcement of what is already in place.
QuoteOriginally posted by gregg dudley
Laws exist for the responsible use of atvs. What we need is consistent enforcement of what is already in place. [/QB]
This is exactly the point I wanted to make. I wish that I had the tallent to write in my 2 pervious posts on this subject. Thank you Gregg
It was said several times over the course of this thread--here is one quote that puts it in a nutshell for me.
QuoteIrresponsible hunters in general, whether on foot, auto, or ATV is what spoils hunting.
The way I see it, blaming ATV's for hunting problems goes along the same lines as blaming guns for killing people, forks for making people fat, high-tech bows for making hail-mary shots at game, etc. etc. etc. They are simply a tool--how they are used or misused depends on the operator.
Yes, I do own one--I live on a farm, and it sure comes in handy. As far as using it for hunting, that's a rare occasion other than getting an animal out of the woods (on private land). Season opens on October 1st here in MS, and it's not at all unusual for the temps to be in the 80's--meat spoils dang fast. We usually don't even get cool weather until late November, and I'm in the Northern part of the state.
I guess I could just stay home the first six to 8 weeks of the season, or just cut out the backstraps and get them in a cooler and hope the rest doesn't spoil before I can get it out.....yeah, right! Ain't gonna' happen, as long as I have acess to an ATV. I do plan to train my mule (4-foot, hay burning type) to possibly take the place of the ATV, but until then...
I've had/seen hunts spoiled by folks in trucks, on horseback, and on foot--so do we ban trucks, horses, and boots? If you ever had someone walk in on your spot, did you get mad at the shoes they were wearing? If you catch a poacher, do you get mad at their weapon? If not, and you get mad at ATV's, why didn't you get mad at the shoes or weapon? They are just as much to blame as the ATV.
I understand the frustration, but I don't understand getting mad at the tool vs. the individual operating it. Personally, I don't much care about the insinuations that practically everyone that owns an ATV uses it irresponsibly. Sure, there's plenty of idiots that own ATV's, just like there's plenty of slob "hunters". I won't judge the whole by the actions of a few, and I don't want to be judged that way either.
Chad
LBR I was trying to say the same thing in my post but yours was better.Kip
Let me clarify something I said earlier. When I said we had no outlets for our stories, I meant that the MAIN STREAM media defines us to the GENERAL PUBLIC. Yes, we have outdoor shows and hunting channels but the only people that watch them (for the most part) are people already interested in hunting. Showing hunters in a good light to other hunters does us no good. We all agree that it is the non-hunters that we need to appeal to and the fact remains that the only media outlets that non-hunters watch (in any great numbers) are the ones that have an anit-hunting bias.
Preaching to the choir...you know the story.
LBR is exactly right. Some of you are accusing an inanimate object of ruining your hunt. I have personally been bothered much more by hunters on foot than on ATV's.
When will we realize that we do NO hunters any good when we throw other hunters under the bus. Hopefully we will wake up before the bus kills us all.
Lenny
Lenny
QuoteLaws exist for the responsible use of atvs. What we need is consistent enforcement of what is already in place. [/QB]
Many state game departments already have a shortage of enforcement personell. Sorry, but I prefer that those we do have be able to spend their time enforcing the game laws, not being traffic cops.
Why ride when you can walk ? Makes no sense to me.
In answer to the original question of "do ATV's or 4 wheelers ruin my hunting area", the answer is HELL YES! If other hunters are being irresponsible, then I have no problem throwing them under and or running them over with the "bus". Certainly, one of our biggest problems is ourselves and how we choose to or not to act in the areas we hunt. I'm not going to turn my head to bad choices by other hunters, that just perpetuates what some of the Anti-hunters use against us.
Bill
LBR - great post!
Steve
Nothing against ATVs as a useful tool in the right hands and under the right common-sense work situations, but this question has nothing to do with that type of use. The question was...
"Do ATV's or 4 wheelers hurt your bowhunting area?"
Absolutely, for all the obvious and very well-presented reasons already given, and more.
One reason not often recognized is the damage ATVs can do to wildlife habitat and sensitive areas such as streambanks, stream channels and riparian (streamside) vegetation. In fact, a significant amount of money is spent each year by clubs, associations and state/federal government agencies (thats YOUR tax dollars at work, folks) repairing damages or avoiding the potential for future damage caused by use of ATVs in areas not intended or designed for them... and much of that damage has longlasting effects on stream and riparian ecosystems that in turn can affect fishing, stream morphology, erosion potential and hunting success in an area for many years thereafter. ATVs can and WILL have a tremendous effect in a short amount of time relative to soil and vegetative impacts, if used irresponsibly or even if used responsibly but in areas prone to chronic soil disturbance (stream bottoms, swales, cutbanks, beaches, vernal pools, etc.). And unfortunately even the most responsible of us often don't recognize the potential problems caused by these machines that are not only engineered for chewing up dirt but which are promoted on TV and in manufacturer's ads as wilderness adventure machines where every soft bank, wetland and stream channel is fodder for doing donuts and wheelies. What appears to be harmless fun on a TV commercial can often result in an erosion nightmare causing habitat effects and destruction far beyond simple noise or animal disturbance problems.
ATVs DO have high potential for scaring animals, and disturbing hunting and fishing areas, and polluting streams, and promoting a couch potato hunting mentality. They have their advantages...but certainly not without serious consequences when it comes to the fields and forests.
So SteveB, is this 'ATV traditional elitist' enough for you? :)
Close - some good discussion though.
Steve
First off in Montana they did studies where biologists watched the effects of atvs going through areas where there were well studied game populations. It was a 10 year study; and really intensive. It showed that ATVs do effect elk and other animals. When atvs go through an area it creates a corridor where the animals leave. That effects their survival rate.
So; ATVs do effect our hunting.
On a personal level; nothing has angered me more; and ruined more outdoor experiences than the sudden presence of atvs into areas they are not legally allowed; let alone ethically.
Seems like the harder they twist their wrist on the gas; the lower their IQ goes.
In Idaho it is rare to see an atv with any identification on it. While we are a big state; I asked at the motor vehicle place the other day - how many atvs are registered. The answer was 117,000 ATVs.
I know they save gas; but when I see a truck with an atv and equipment in the back of it; towing a trailer with 4 atvs on it... I have to wonder if the desire is less about saving fuel; and more about making shortcuts.
Yes you can go places faster with the ATV; but you desturb everything on the way in and out; and yes... that include us if we are there.
I am 56 closing in on 57; and yep its getting harder to push myself and not end up really sore the next day.
But that should be making me smarter.
I think that means being more aware of how to get where I want to go on foot; and yes an easier way....but not buying an atv and going ~that~ route.
Near Boise Idaho; you can still see the wheel ruts of the Oregon trail; made from horse drawn wagon wheels- of the pioneers.
Some areas rapidly recover from abuse; other areas do not. Here it is a factor; drive up a hillside once; and it sets the scene for others to follow; and they do. Then it is an errosion problem.
YES - atv's hurt our hunting areas. At least the areas I have hunted here!!!!
Brian , thanks..this 3000 acres bowhunting only ranch, was just increidable, like I started in begining had no 4 wheelers , no atv's...it was 3000 acres bowhunting only 10 points are better , it was awesome no spooky critters, just natural in the wild...Id have to say it really made a difference...thanks to all ...this is why this site rocks!!!! :)
I only use mine to get deer out. I hunt out west in a wilderness area,so i dont have to be around them.Nothing but horses or your own 2 feet.To many people own them,that cares nothing about wildlife.
Bill