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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Nate Fikkert on January 18, 2008, 12:15:00 AM
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I know many of you keep an eye on western big game hunting. Those who do, know that price wise things just keep going up. Ever since I started hunting my dream of all dreams hunt/animal has been Bighorn Sheep. So, years ago while living in flatland Wisconsin I began buying sheep points in Wyoming. At $7 a year, why not? I figured I would throw all my eggs in one basket and hope that someday I would draw a Wyoming sheep tag. I now have 7 points.
In the meantime I moved to Wyoming for a while, and now have moved on to Utah. Which brings me to my crossroads. Wyoming has now decided to charge $100 non-refundable dollars just to buy a sheep point. Realistically I am still years away from drawing a Wyoming sheep tag, at least 10 (which puts me at 40 years old) and probably more. So I am looking at paying at least $1000 just to buy points, and who knows what the tag will cost then, it is $2250 now.
So what is a guy to do? Do you give up the dream? Do you count your losses at the $49 already spent on points? Do you look to other states? I am now so far behind in the points game in other places that I don't know if it pays. I guess I am asking what would/are you guys doing who continue to dream, but can't afford to.
Tell me what you think?
Nathan
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Don't give it up. You have at least ten years to contribute to a sheep hunt account. That's 3650 days. If you are a Starbucks drinker...put your $1.65 for a cup of regular coffee in the account every day and you have over $6K for your tag. Pack your lunch and you'll easily save the $1k for your points. It's your dream...do with it what you want...but you can easily save the dollars by planning for it now and staying in shape for the next ten years until the hunt.
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Oh, and my last dream that I planned years for is in my avatar.
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I've always dreamed of sheep too - but it will never happen for me. In fact, elk has outpriced non-residents, and in some cases (like the rumors on KS whitetail tags) deer too.
Money is destroying hunting, pure and simple, its the evil of the G&F depts that no one seems to want to recognize
Accept the charges and pay them, or accept the reality of it all, either way its going to hurt
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That is rediculous, but like BTH said you could save the money. It's all perspective!
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Nathan,
I have also dreamed of a sheep hunt for many years but I'am 47 and so far behind in the points game that I don't even apply anymore. I probably will never have the money to afford a BC or Alasken hunt but I have found out about a hunt that is easier to get a tag for. The downside is that it is vary remote rough country and does not have a good number of animals. I believe that you are still young enough to get lucky and should continue to accumulate points. If you are interested in the other hunt that I mentioned shoot me a PM. I'am trying to plan to do this hunt in 2010. Good Luck and stick with your dream.
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Nathan, I didn't get the sheep bug until a couple of years ago and just then started acquiring points. It is costing me about a thousand dollars a year just to apply in the states that I do. I'm 55 and my chances of drawing a tag before I'm too old to go are slim to none. Call me a fool but I'm going to keep applying until I loose the desire or ability to hunt them.
Don't give up. Generally speaking, you are young enough to wait ten years and still be able to hunt Bighorns rather inexpensively. Right now a Bighorn hunt can be bought in Alberta or BC for 25K. Ten years ago it was less than half that price. Who knows how much it will be in another ten years? Following these trends if I were smart I would stop applying in the states and go to Canada. Ten years from now I will have spent at least 12 thousand in application fees, those Canadian hunts could very well be over 50K and I will be 65 years old. Hummm, maybe I better show those figures to my wife and see about getting a loan.
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Nathan,
I also collect sheep point in WY, I currently have 8. You're not as far away as you think with 12 points there are units that you should draw (units 1&2) almost 100%. There also a few units where you have a chance with as few as 10 points(units 6,7,&9).
As far as tag prices getting out of control i agree!!!! However there is a Senator from Californis who is trying to give every common man a chance the way it is supposed to be. He has proposed that if you hunt on National Forest tags should be capped at $200 since we all pay taxes for these lands, and since they were created for everyone to use. Lets see what he can do. Joe
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One more thought don't give up on the dream. "Did we give up when the Nazi's bombed Pearl Harbor, No!!!" Jim Belluci Animal House :biglaugh: :jumper:
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Nate, I would stay in if I were you. $100 is a lot of money, and not to be taken lightly, but put in perspective of keeping your dream alive it is well worth it IMO.
By the time you reach a point where you can get the tag you desire you will still be plenty young. I'm sitting here at 53 years old, and though I now could easily afford the $100 needed to buy a point, time will certainly have caught up with me by the time I would ever get there. It's too late for me.
For me, looking back, I sure wish I had done everything I possibliy could have to accumulate points earlier in my life. I did accumulate some points on some species, but not sheep, and not nearly in enough States. If I had started applying for more when I was younger I would be coming into some really good tags every year by now. As it is, age is catching up fast!
Don't let that happen to you.
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Nathan, never give up on your dreams. I also have a dream of a sheephunt oneday. Ever since I was very young I wanted to hunt elk also. I'm living that dream now as I go every year and wouldn't have it any other way. Yes, prices are expensive, but isn't everything. Why should I give up something I truely love to do. I look forward to elk hunting all year long, that is a part of my hunt.... the anticipation. and when i get there you cannot wipe the smile from my face with a stick. :biglaugh: LOL Its worth it. Find a way!!! R.B.
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JoeM, I'd be interested in which Senator is pursuing the $200 cap. Thanks
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I would suggest looking at another state. Im not sure though, maybe the other states are the same. Although when you think about it, a $100 dollars anymore doesnt go very far so right it off as dream tax. Doesnt Utah have sheep?
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As long as you are meeting your other obligations, $100 a year isn't much money. Personally, I wouldn't do it simply because it perpetuates the exploitation. The State is continually moving down the path of the ends justifies the means. Economic laws do not apply to public goods.
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Benoli I'll try and find his name for you today. Joe
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I take it, you have to build points before your elible to get in a sheep tag lottery? Not sure how many you need to go but if you have 7 points already, and your only 30, keep with it hoss.
I think all hunting fees have gotten out of hand, from licencing to land leasing. Seems every way you look these days, everybody has their hand out. I guess they have to limit the amount of hunter who persue certian species but to regulate thru the wallet is plain wrong, in my opinon. We all pay for those federal lands and should all have equal chance to hunt them. $25K for a hunt? For a working man with a family, may as well be $250K! I must be in the wrong line of work or something...
JL
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Dreams, are only realities you have not experienced yet !
When I was a kid, I dreamed about flying an airplane, when I was 18, I was placed on air crew of the P - 3 Electra (Navy), I got the opportunity, not officially, to set in the pilot seat and fly that plane for 20 min. one day while joy riding in Rota Spain with the Captain. It was just the Captain, an engineer, a copilot, and my buddy and I.
Took flying lessons, and quit after awhile, took some more lessons and quit after awhile. I went to the dentist one-day and saw in a magazine an add, " you can have your childhood dream" it was about flying a Cessna airplane.
I made the mistake of telling my wife ! She said;
" why don't you finish your license" it cost me $8,500 by the time I was finished. I purchased my own airplane,I had it for two years, purchased it for $19,900, when I sold it two years later, it sold for $28,500.
My dream worked out, and I'm sure yours will to, having said all that, it's pretty easy to tell someone to spend their own money. You have to weigh what it will cost you " if you never achieve your dream" that would be the heavier price, as my wife says " shoulded on yourself"
" I should have done this or that "
There's an old expression I've heard " I worked so hard, I get lucky sometimes" that's what it amounts to, you do so many things, and all of a sudden, you've achieved your dream. When I look back at all that I had to do to get my pilot's license there was only one moment that was memorable in flying, okay maybe two,
I took my wife up for a flight, it was the first time she flew with me, we went up to 8500 ft., I had her open the window, and touch a cloud, I'll never forget the look on her face, it was worth every penny I spent.
Dreams are sometimes like vapor, you need to have enough of it so that it accumulates enough to become water, so your dream can grow. And you can also think about this, if your dream was easy enough for anyone to achieve, everybody would be doing it, you will be among considerably fewer that have achieve their dream of sheep hunting.
As many guys that turn the pages of magazines, buy videos about it, talk about it, but there are far too many, that will never put their feet on the same dirt, that the sheep has walked on, let alone to mount that head on the back of their shoulders knowing that every moment of sacrifice, was worth the sacrifice that the sheep gave to give you your dream.
Pastor Carl
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July 31 2007
Congressman Duncan Hunter R-California introduced the, "Teddy Roosevelt Bring Back our Public Lands Act." The legislation seeks to reduce costs incurred by out of state sportsman who hunt exclusively on Federal land. In 1909 President TR signed the last piece of legislation successfully creating over 42 million acres of national forest, the American outdoorsman came into his own. Because of Roosevelt's leadership the average Amerian man could fire up his old chevy hed out west for a week of elk hunting. Not any more. Today state beaucracies are closing the door on the average Joe by charging uotrageous tag prices to non residents. I'm not a very good typer so I'm sure you can read more on Mr. Hunter's website. Joe
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You only get to go through this life once and the money stays behind. Why have regrets when your turn to move on comes?
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Nate My Man.....Play the odds, and try and draw as you build up points.
I have been very BLESSED with WY. sheep havin had 3 permits. 2 were Back to Back the year they changed the regs. :pray: :pray:
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Nate, well I'll be the voice of reality(or negativity). As you know I have been applying for MANY years in Utah, for bison(and other things). They also pulled the "lets let them get a few points and then jack up the price", thing this year. Now I am faced with sending them $75 a year for a POINT or giving up on the money I already invested. When I started the odds were about one in 55, in 2006 they were one in 550. Look at the actual ODDS of you getting drawn, not when it is theoretically possible that you COULD get drawn, then multiply that times the $100, I know in some places the odds for getting drawn on sheep is one in several thousand. Its great to have dreams, but they need to be tempered with reality. I saw an interview with Mickey Rooney once, he said that when he was 16 he lost $1 on a bet, in the next 50 years he lost $8 million more trying to win it back! The other side of the coin is that by sending them more money, you are supporting this blatent ripoff, thats your call, but I will not send Utah another penny. It is $100 now, but its a certainty that the price will continue to go up and the odds will too, whats it going to be in 20 years? If NOBODY sent these ripoff states money, things would change very rapidly. I will buy the charity raffle tickets for sheep hunts etc.. but I won't personally support borderline illegal profitteering by states.
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I was going to be a smart ass and point out that both of CA's senators are women, but it's a congressman whose behind that effort. Let's hope he is successful.
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That legislation is going no where. It is clearly determined in the courts that game is the property of the state. I GUARANTEE you guys do NOT want the feds to manage game. What a disaster that would be. Think about all that coat tails with this and what you are asking for if you support this! Think yellowstone wolf escapades for a reality check.
Nate, isthere nothing you want or would go back to WY for in a given year since you would have the license? (That is where the $100 goes, towards a license right, or is it JUST a number on a piece of paper?)
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Nate,
"Keep you feet grounded in reality but always follow your dreams". I don't know where I first read that but I have always adhered to it. I went on my first mountain hunt in 1993 for elk. Since then, I have gone back as much as I could afford to. As time went by, prices have gotten out of hand and I found I could not go every year as I liked to. 15 years later, after much planning and soul searching, My wife and I have moved to Montana. It took sacrifice and a lot of luck, but we have pulled it off. I have a piece of property that backs up to the national forest and have already seen elk, bear, turkey, whitetails, and a ton of small game on the place. I'll be able to hunt elk out my back door. Dream fufilled.
My point is this: if I hadn't had the dream and acted on it(with planning and sacrifice) I would still be in Florida griping about the heat and humidity. Follow your dreams! I've always believed that the worst thing for me would be going to meet my maker with unfufilled dreams. Follow your dreams! Good luck.
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I don't think that Nate is so much worried about the political issues as much as "What We Would DO" Yes they play an Integral part, however casting them aside what would WE do??
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There's no doubt that game agencies are socking it to non-residents, but we might try looking at it from their perspective. They're caught between a rock and a hard place.
On the one hand, state budgets throughout the country are becoming tighter and tighter as people don't want to pay higher taxes to continue to get the services they've come to expect. This means that game agencies, along with other state agencies, are seeing no increases in their budgets or even substantial cuts.
On top of that, the local hunting populations aren't particularly thrilled with a lot of non-residents invading their ground each fall. They lobby hard for keeping in-state hunting fees low as well as for higher non-resident fees, which they see as a way to reduce the number of hunters competing with them.
All of these views are rather short sighted, but they are reality. Most state game agencies have little choice but to sock it to the non-residents. Unfortunately, I don't think boycots by average Joe hunter will reduce deamand or prices. There are too many folks with deep pockets to keep the current system in play.
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Nate, all I have to say is do not give up on your dreams. One cannot know what the future may hold. Even if you try your entire life, at least we live in a country with the opportunity to make our dreams come true thanks to the lives of countless armed servicemen and women throughout the life our our great nation. So dream on, and I'll be praying for you to get your chance.
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And we wonder why the number of young people entering our sport and hunting in general is declining. Hunting is not becoming a rich man's sport, it's already here my brothers. Money is scarce and hard to come by for a lot of us and these prices are just forcing more and more of us out of even trying for a dream hunt. There are a lot of other priorities in life that come before our hunting so dreams is all some of us will ever have.
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Dreams are great, we all need to have dreams, but applying for a low odds lottery isn't a dream its a fantasy that you have no control over other than to throw more money in the pit or not. I spend a lot of time in Las Vegas and there are loads of people there, living their dream and sleeping on the sidewalk. All those hugh casinos that cost many many millions were built on dreams. If this was a matter of time before being drawn, I'd say go for it, but its not is it? The odds say that you will need to apply for several hundred more years to have a good chance of being drawn and thats if they don't get worse. Its good to have dreams, but have ones that you can actually work toward achieving, rather than just gambling on.
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Well put Caranthir. With the high cost of fuel and everything associated with it, the workin man has to face reality. The good paying manufacturing jobs that were once abundent are getting very scarce, thus people can't afford the hunts they have always dreamed about,sad but true.
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Don't give up.
The good thing about WY is it IS a true preference point system (for now). That means if you stay in long enough, you WILL get a tag. Lots of guys are going to drop out this year; watch and see. Lots of those above you are going to draw or (not to be disrespectful) die.
If you don't apply, you can't draw. I drew a Colorado Bighorn ram tag last year and even though I didn't get a ram, I had the experience of a lifetime. It is worth EVERY penny.
You know, $100 in a year is one less 12 pack of beer a month, or one less pizza a month, movie, ect. You get the idea.
Put in for NM. The odds are very poor, but it is $6. That is much better than the cost of a ticket in every sheep hunt raffle I know of.
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Steve H...all you get for your $100 in WY is a point. See Rick, Utah is a better deal than Wyoming ;) at least you get your NR license. Silver linings everywhere...
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You can go for a ewe here in CO almost every year if you put in as a first choice. You'll never get your dream if you dont try!!!!!!!!!!
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Steve O, yeah I could take that license and frame it or spend just a couple thousand more to travel out to Utah and hunt otc mulie does. Whewhoo..........
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Do not give up on your dreams.You have still got at least 10 years.It'll work out.Just think,it will NEVER work out if don't try.
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Rick,
Believe me, I feel your pain. It is just fun to crank you up a little...you could hunt huns and chukars too :p
Gene, he has at least 30 years, don't sell him short.
So, you put in for 23 more years, by then the lic will be $3300. So you have $5600 in it now. By then, the Alberta Bighorn hunts will be $50000...so you are at least $44,000 ahead :goldtooth:
I will say it again because I an SURE I am correct: If you don't put in, you WILL NOT draw.
I decided long ago I would never make enough money to retire and hunt. Anyway, I would be old and broken down and wouldn't be able to hunt anything I wanted to. So, I'll have to work another year to pay for all the hunts I go on from now till then...so what! I'll have the memories, pictures, friendships, and mounts to look back on. Nobody can take it away once you do it.
DO NOT GIVE UP!
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Joe M, I'd be interested in which Senator is pursuing the $200 cap. Thanks
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i just bought my Utah elk preference point and new this year, Utah makes you buy a 65.00 hunting license BEFORE . you can buy the 10.00 preference point.
Can't raise taxes to pay the way , its always the non resident who takes it in the shorts Always has been , always will be.
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Nate,
First it was great meeting you and having lunch the other day.
I know its a hundred bucks but a dream is a dream!
I know a few guys that find creative ways to finance hunts. I know its hard with kids.
Mitch
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If I am understanding this, buying a preference point used to be seven dollars, and they jumped it to one hundred. Who is to say that in five yrs it won`t be five hundred per point.
All forms of government are now feeling the pinch of less money. The same kind of pinch the average guy has been feeling for several years now. They had better get used to it, because it ain`t gonna get better.
Raising fees is going to happen. Going from seven to one hundred, just for a point, is just plain ridiculus. They WANT to discourage you from hunting sheep.
You asked what we(I) thought about this. If I were you, I would demand my money back,(even though it will do no good) and ask the government of Wyoming why they want to discourage the average non-resident from hunting there. Those prices are outrageous, and clearly send a message.
Raising application fees, and tag fees,will provide zero extra money for any state funded program, because for every extra dollar that is raised, two more will be wasted somewhere else. This is why our taxes have never been increasing as they are now, and money problems within any given state have never been greater.
In my opinion,paying BIG money to hunt anything, anywhere, within our borders is big time bad news for ALL of us.
If you decide to pursue your sheep dream, I hope there is a computer glitch, and it spits one out for you next year. I hope you get to hunt hard, make great memories, and I hope you get to roast sheep ribs over an open fire.
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Nate, I'm 62 and living my dream by hunting out of state at least 4-5 times a year. If I'd bought points at your age...these would definitely be the golden years. Go for it! Doc
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That's nuts. At one time hunting used to be a poor mans sport. How times have changed..
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Life is short, dream long hard and often! Never give up! Where there's a will there's a way make your dreams come true. He who dies with the biggest debt wins!
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Wow,
What a response! First thanks for all the encouragement. Second, I want to touch on a few things. I didn't want to start a politcal debate, but, I too don't agree with the feds capping prices. Game and fish dep. don't have enough money as it is, and now they are being forced to managed endangered species, and other hot topic issues. They need to "own" the wildlife. However, $2000+ for a sheep tag and $100 per year just to play the game, COME ON!
Rick I feel your pain, and we have talked. You know my offer still stands, and you can hunt more than does. I am more in favor of the non-refundable license than a $100 point that doesn't even let me fish in Wyoming. I can get more behind a system like Utah or Arizona where you buy a license but you could technically still hunt something in that state. I know it doesn't do you much good if you have to travel 1000 miles to hunt grouse. I agree with SteveO, as long as it is a true points system I should draw. It may be worth looking into New Mexico or Montana. At least in Montana you get a bonus point and the tag is only $755.
Mitch, back at you. And thanks to all of you who I know and don't know for your opinions. Truly a great site! Keep up this great discussion.
I still don't know what to do though,
Nathan
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Steve O says, "So, you put in for 23 more years, by then the lic will be $3300. So you have $5600 in it now. By then, the Alberta Bighorn hunts will be $50000...so you are at least $44,000 ahead."
Wow Steve, will you do my taxes for me, HAHAHA!
Seriously Nate, if it's your dream, go for it man. I know you are a young man, just starting a family and don't know or want to know your financial situation. But Steve is right, $100 in the grand scheme of things won't even make a ripple in a very large bucket.
If I had all the money back that I've spent on Alaska tags and travel, I could buy one of those "governor's tags" and go on a sheep hunt. But then I wouldn't have had the awesome experience of going to Alaska 9 times...
If it's worth dreaming, it's worth pursuing.
Or, better yet, you can come to the PBS Banquet and end up going home with a New Zealand tahr hunt or an African adventure or...the possibilities are endless!
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Nate,
If you still don't know what to do, you are not a good listener...
Don't count on MT...I know quite a few guys that are going on year 43 to draw a sheep tag and they are residents.
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SteveO,
I understand what you are saying. I guess it depends on who I am listening to, or not listening to. Kevin, if I spend money on the banquet this year, there goes all my application money! I do know what you are all saying. Dreams are dreams, you can't quit. In all actuality I think I know what I have to do, now I just have to figure out how. Maybe someday I will have a story to put on this site.
Thanks again everyone,
Nathan
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Nate buddy, keep at it!! Hundred bucks is a lot of money, but you still have a chance. I would keep at it, and when you draw I will come up and be your spotter. I know the WY thing. The price hike kept me from elk this year. Talk with you soon.
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I've read along here with interest and everybody has a valid point based on their experience and convictions. After considering this some today, I know what I would do. If there are yet to be limits and fees on photographs, I'd go and take my camera. I'd hike the same mountains, stalk the same game, breath the same air and the "trophies" I took would be worth every penny. Then I'd take the money I saved and put it on what I (personal opinion here) consider to be a more "tangible" dream. Maybe another big game hunt, maybe a nice bow or two. Maybe another photo excursion with the kids.
I'll never be able to justify those prices for myself. My grand-dad didn't get to go, my dad won't either. They didn't miss it, I don't think I will as much as I once thought.
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Jedi,
I thought I had things all figured out, until your post. Lot of good wisdom there, but what else would you expect from a Jedi.
Ryan, thanks man, I appreciate it. Same offer here.
Nathan
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Nate
You and Ryan better not leave me out! Hiking up and down cliffs with a pack eating too little hiking too much all to get bigger pack for the hike out. I would not want to miss it.
I think Jedi has a point. We all have different goals in hunting and I think that's great. Right not I have no desire to hunt African game but I love it that some guys do and apreciate seeing the pictures and hearing the stories. What I'm trying to say is if its your dream follow it!
Mitch
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Nate,
If it's pics you want, I live up Petty Creek in Montana. See Sheep on the hillsides every day on my commute. Send me your email and I'll ship you a couple of pics. I guess I'm too dumb to figure out this photo shop site or I'd post them here. You can reach me at [email protected].
Jon
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Jon, that's awfully cool to see and nice of you to send pictures. I think if I was Nate it would only stoke the fire hotter. I gotta experience it! The pictures would be proof and a reminder of my dream.
I wouldn't want to discourage anyone from going to hunt if the hunt is what they want. I wouldn't want to live without a dream and this ain't a photography site, but... You can go and do all the same things and just not pack out meat. Conversely, you can take a chance on not going at all. I don't know if I make sense but it's all about what's important to the individual.
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Man I see why the average credit card debt in this country is over $10K now. Its not just $100, its just $100 for a POINT, the only thing that POINT does is keep you from sliding farther backward in comparison to the others that sent in the $100. When WY changed it from $7 to $100 thats almost a 1500% increase(same as Utah, probably a coincidence!). Do you believe if they have the guts to raise in that much, that in a couple years it won't be $200 or $500 or maybe $1000? Those are much smaller percentages than they just did. I realize that states need money to manage wildlife and I have a pretty big pile of old licences and tags here, that shows I have no problem with paying my share, BUT when they make HUGE increases, that ONLY affect nonresidents and they put that money into the general fund and NOT into wildlife, then I do have a serious problem with it. WY was taking in a MILLION $$$$ a year in nr sheep and goat app fees BEFORE this increase, how much do you think it will be now? Maybe I will just keep my money here in GA where a nr can shoot 12 deer, 3 turkeys, 1 bear and unlimited hogs for $135!
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Wow, thats a buttload of money over time and not knowing what the tag and hunt its self will cost .. BUT only you know your situation money wise, But with a family to support and responsibilities outside huntin, I would have to really look at it. I have had to make some local hunts more of a adventure by backpacking into wilderness areas etc, after whitetails and bear because I just couldnt swing a out of state elk hunt. These local hunts proved to be very memorable, maybe not so much as a dream sheep hunt, but . BUT I am one for chasing a dream.. and NEVER giving up. but ya got to know what ya can and cannot do being realistic..jedimaster makes some great points, go do it with a camera, and experience the same hunt, , only diffrent LOL! good luck, hope ya can work it out.
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Nate,
Doing a bit more review, here is what I would do in your situation:
We know the current rules and you are applying as a NR. I have seen these rules ebb and flow and morph into something else each decade.
You are only 30 and already have 7 points which is 3-5 points off what it takes to actually be in the runing for the 75% to the tags. Yes that number will creep up each year but.....
....MANY people will drop out, die, get too old, or draw. MANY will stop applying this year.
Since I have the advantage of knowing you are a "profedinal", even though money might be tight today it will loosen up "tomorrow". A hundred bucks at 30 is more like a thousand a decade and a half later.
I would apply this year cause hey you may draw on chance but I think at your young age with 7 points you are too far down the trail to back out now.
If it were something more like a Utah situation I would tell you the opposite as 1 in 1,100 for $75 is just moronic unless you already needed a license (as a distant NR).
I cringe when I see what it takes to draw a moose tag or the best sheep tags. There was ONE year I didn't pay attention to WY and they slipped this system in on me. Man was I p!ssed! I suspected I would NEVER catch up to the folks with maximum points and thought I would forever be -1. I was wrong about that, I would be in the money in ANY unit now. I have nothing unfortunately.
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Mitch, I don't think we would do that. We need someone one pack the food ;) LOL! Nate after thinking about it a little more, I would continue to put in, but that would be the only "big" hunt I would put in for out of state. Start getting your points here for UT for a different critter. You never know when lady luck might smile on you.
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Rick,
I believe you are just a little off. At $5/$7 bucks, Utah and Wyoming were not even covering their processing costs for the draws. That probably has a lot to do with being part of the "government" and how they source and do things, but they were NOT making any millions from the draw.
There is no good way around it...if a guy has a dream to hunt sheep, he is going to have to spend some coin. There are LONG odds, but somebody does draw or win the raffles. I myself know guys who have won sheep hunt raffles, drawn an NM desert sheep tag, drawn a CO desert sheep tag, drawn on their FIRST (yes, that is correct FIRST) application in Wyoming for a Bighorn Ram, and many others that the odds are THOUSANDS to one.
If your dream is to hunt sheep, the is NO other chice. Unfortunately for my pocketbook, that is one of my dreams...
I don't know why I keep trying to talk Nate into putting in...he is my competition!!!
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turn you 'dreams' into 'goals' and simply work towards them. It is funny what you can go if you simply dont take 'no' for an answer.
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Steve O ok maybe I didn't say it correctly, but WY TOOK IN roughly a million dollars. It dos'nt cost all that much to run the apps through a computer, but somebody made money I am sure. I have a hard time believeing that they need to raise the ante 1428% to break even. All the excuses made don't add up to the fact that all of these states have realized the easiest way for them to make money is to ripoff nr's. Unfortunately they are right, most guys will just say "oh well, there is nothing I can do" and they will do just what the ripoff states are counting on them to do, so they will continue to do it and it will continue to get worse. I for one will not support the ripoff, I won't spend ANY of my own money in these states, hunting, vacation or otherwise, also, I sometimes have a say in where hundreds of thousands of business dollars are spent directly and possibly millions indirectly. I am not going recommend sending it to any state that makes a habit abusing nr's as in my experience, if someone will rip you off once, they will rip you off as many times as you let them.
Steve O and Nate, thanks for the suggestions on hunting in Utah and please don't take offence, but it just wouldn't be very smart for me to spend hundreds or more in travel expenses to go to Utah, just so I didn't waste $65 on a license.:^)
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As Rick so aptly put it, these states see us non residents as their cash cow. And as long as we keep paying to play, it won't change...probably even get worse! Illinois is no different. It now costs nearly $400 for a NR to deer hunt. DEER! Oops, I forgot, there's a big buck behind every tree here so it's worth it. Right.
But the keep selling 20,000 NR tags every year, so why would they ever reduce the price?
That being said, it all depends on how much you want it.
Looks like we should all meet up at Rick's house next year and go chase some hogs!
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Yeah,
Maybe I need to move to the southeast, and hunt with Rick. It is sad but true, I pretty much think all western states have gone to this. New Mexico (maybe Idaho?) is the only one I can think of that hasn't gone into the points game, they did raise there prices a bit this year I believe. What are you going to do? I could go either way on the sheep or moose thing, but I can't give up elk hunting. At least that is a tangible dream each year.
Steve H, if we could just get a new farm bill, and I could get my "11" that would change things a bit. Right now jobs/promotions in good locations are hard to come by.
I think my decision is to stay in at least one more year, and assess things then. Then I am "only" out roughly $150 on points and can cut my losses at that. It sounds like I have my sherpa's all lined up for the hunt already, I don't want to let them down!
Thanks everyone,
Nathan
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No offense, but I get a kick out of all the people that rant and rave about how hunting is becoming a rich man's sport, all the while shelling out whatever it takes to "realize their dream."
Simply put, (in my opinion of course) anyone who continues to do this is part of the problem.
How many times do we read about how "it's not the kill, it's the experience." If you want the experience, go on your hunt. Do everything that you dreamed about but when it comes time to take the shot, do it with your camera.
No points, no tags, no taxidermy costs and the thousands of dollars that you would have spent will still be in your pocket and you will have sent a message that you are no longer willing to contibute to the madness. The best part is you can do it anytime you want, every year if you choose.
Just something to think about.
Lenny
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get off your butts and get a second job...start a company and build your own business so you can get tax breaks, earn the money you need to live your dreams.
You're too young to be bitching about other people making it too expensive for you to hunt. A scarce resource becomes expensive...its not the game departments being greedy, its the resource. Too many people wanting one, that's what makes it expensive.
Work an extra 40 hours, make 500 bucks a year...that 5000 dollars in ten years.
Doing it your way is a lot better than paying 200,000 for a governors tag...2250 for a licesne, 1000 for preference points...is that all? I spent that much on a caribou hunt and bear hunt last year...stop bellyaching and go for your dream.
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My .02.. If it is a true dream; make it happen. I decided in June of 2001 to quit wishing and start doing. I quit wasting my money on "stuff" (bows not included of course, LOL) and found a fun seasonal part time 2nd job. I bust my rear end working 6 1/2 days a week for eight months every year. The 2nd job is almost fun, but not having any free time to play does get old. That being said when I have a recurve bow in my hand and am looking out over mountains that have never been touched by anything powered by gasoline... It is worth every minute.
Spend the money, keep getting the points. You only get one turn at this game we're all playing.
John III
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How this for irony, after my previous posts I went to the mall and got my FREE prostate exam, a bunch of businesses, including Ford, GE, Freightliner etc. donated to giving this service. It seems like WY, UT etc. should be at least be able to give you a clean bill of prostate health after you give them $75 or $100!
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Lots of good thoughts on this from both sides. Heres my take. I'm sure like alot of others on here my Dad was from the generation where you'd work like heck all your life and then do what you want when you retire. That plan has some flaws. He worked tons of hours "providing for his family" and as I sat on his death bed when he was 55 I decided right there and then as long as I could provide for my family that I would start doing all the things I had just dreamed about. I worked on the side, saved, did without alot of little things, etc and went on many a dang nice hunts all over the country and have never regreted a dang minute or dime of it.
With that said as I got older I realized that I too , not bragging, could hunt and kill anything just like the writers in the magazines did that I read IF I wanted to pay to put my self in those oppurtunities. Then one day it hit me what I really really liked to do was just hunt. So now adays I put my time and effort in what I would have put in out of state hunts towards hunting LONGER close to home. I now adays hunt almost the entire bow season and still spend less than what I use to spend taking those once in a lifetime hunts that are over in a week. I guess it helps I love hunting whitetails and lately have boughten my NR Ohio license. Three years ago the farmer wasn't to keen on even letting me hunt there, this year I stayed IN HIS FARM house and hunted two solid weeks in Ohio alone. I recently read on here a thread where a bunch of guys didn't even get to hunt one weekend yet they are on here daily talking, eating, breathing bowhunting. Sad. I'm not knocking these guys just feel sorry for them.
Whats all this rambling mean to you? I've got no idea, if it's your dream hunt and thats your priority then dang nab it go for it.A man definately has to have dreams. But there are other options.
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LC, Better advice was never given. Your "rambling" was refreshing wisdom. Priorities and options... yes!
You don't have to do it because somebody else romanticizes it. There is so much to life! This is just a piece of the pie.
To each his own. I won't work myself to death and miss my own piece of heaven right here at home to spend a week in another man's paradise.
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WHOA Ray,
Hold on, I don't know who your "bitching" comment was aimed at. I can only assume me. I was just asking for some advice and opinions on what to do. I am just a regular guy with an average job, two young kids and a wife that doesn't work so we don't have to pay someone else to raise our kids for us. When I get done with work I come home and "GET OFF MY BUTT" and try to be a father and a husband. I used to work in carpentry and what I made at my job paid the bills and what I made on the side paid for hunting. Then, I fell off a building, busted myself up and went back to school to start a different career. Yeah, those are the choices we made, and sometimes the hunting budget suffers because of it. Can I make the $100 a year happen, absolutely. All I have to do is go skiing 2 fewer times this year. Unfortunately I like skiing almost as much as hunting. And when you live in Utah you might as well ski, because the hunting here isn't all it's cracked up to be.
Just trying to get some good advice on making some priorities and sacrifices. Up until your post everybody had pretty positive things to say on both sides of the argument. I have never met you before and I know people on here respect you and your opinion. I however, think your post was a bit uncalled for. I work hard, budget my money, stay out of debt, go to the gym and work out everyday to stay in shape so I can hunt for the long haul, and try to have dreams on the side. I hunt on my own most of the time, backpack, public land, general season tags and struggle to have success. So don't accuse me of being lazy and bitching.
Sincerely,
Nathan Fikkert
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I wasn't you Nate-my apologies, should have been clearer..just got back from a hunting trip and a little tired...just read the responses you got....some of them were predictably commiserating with you about your dilemna then finding people and instituations to blame their inability to find a way to "get it done".
sometimes positive posts aren't truthful...they're just blowing smoke...sometimes posts need to bring folks back to reality....a friend doesnt always tell you what you WANT to hear...sometimes he has to bring you back to reality.
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Nate, It's really up to whether you want it bad enough in my opinion. I, like you, could easily afford the $100 a year to get more points. My problem is that at age 38 I have gotten more practical like my father and would rather use the money elsewhere when there are plenty of whitetails here in MO to hunt. I lived in CO for seven years and worked so much that I really never got to go Elk hunting a couple of times and never harvested one, and now still dream of hunting them. Fact is I'm blue collar and can't really afford it now. Like Ray said above I could go back to working a second job to pay for all kinds of goodies like more bows, hunts, etc.. but my health and my family are more important than my hunting dreams ever could be. Hope you find the answer you're looking for. Mark
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Ray,
I can respect that, friends tell the truth, and yes, sometimes the truth hurts. Bottom line is I could make it happen, but is it the right thing to do...?
Nathan
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Keep at in Nate! You can ski later! :D
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To each his own I guess but LC and Jedimaster nailed it for me. I could afford to take a big hunting trip a year if it was a priority. I went that route for a couple years and decided I would rather stay closer to home and focus on a series of smaller adventures. I hunt MN and ND and between the 2 states I have over 4 months to hunt whitetails. Some years I start a couple weeks early and hunt antelope in SD.
I love to hunt and do it more than anyone I know. I took 6 trips this year ranging from 2-4 days and one 6 day trip for antelope. (All within a 6 hour drive) Plus I hunt at least 3 evenings a week around home. I shoot plenty of animals but don't have many trophy animals, never considered a guided hunt, I just focus on hunting and hunt because I love it and can't get enough.
My point is; a hunting adventure is what you make of it. We choose to hunt with traditional equiptment because we are passionate about it. Why not then hunt for the sake of hunting with a stickbow? Instead of working extra to spend the kind of money your talking on a 10 day hunt spend that time hunting closer to home. I'd exchange working for hunting anyday even if the hunting was average, which in my case it is.
To each his own, set the priorities that are best for you. Ask yourself "How bad do I want it?" If it is bad enough to keep spending the money for the preference points then go for it. Best of luck, Chad
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no offense, Chad...but there really is something about being in a place where you 'feel' like you might be the only human who's ever set foot there
To see critters who instead of running the other way at the mere sight of you stand and stare because you are the first human they have ever seen
To hear the wolf's lonely call at night, to see the aurora borealis at 3am and wonder at the sight
To catch a fish on every cast that's bigger than the last one and that tastes so wonderful cooked right there on the shore at noon
To fly in a float plane
To meet natives who speak little if any english but who share the common bond of predator with you
To see country you have read of since childhood and dreamed of ever since
And if you get to share that with someone you becomes your friend, or who is already a friend?
Those are a few reasons why some heed the call..its not wrong if you don't..but its why some do.
Awesome antelope in your avatar by the way, Chad
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Ray, that pretty much sums up my feelings.
Nate, all I can say is I wish I were in your shoes. I'd be smiling as I made the check out to the Wyoming Fish and Game thinking about all the money I'd be saving in the long run.
To all the others that never realize their dreams, I'm sorry.
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Ray, those are great reasons for going on a big hunt. I agree totally. 8 years ago I took a caribou hunt in Alaska. I did a drop camp and experiance everything you just mentioned. It was a fantastic experiance. The tag cost 400.00. The trip cost about 3000.00. If I understand right Nate is talking about spending around 20,000.00 for the same hunt as I did the only difference is it is a sheep versus a caribou.
My point is is a sheep worth an extra $17,000.00? For 20,000.00 you can do a lot of hunting. You don't need a $12,000 sheep tag in you pocket to experiance everything you mentioned. I'm just saying there are other options and one has to ask themselves is it worth it to me and why do I want to do it. Chad
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Chad, he said the tag was 2500 and the preference points 1000...so that's why I suggested going for it. I believe he can guide himself for the sheep....or someone on here will help him.
I don' know for certain but I bet that there are folks on here who will help him get a sheep and won't charge a dime for it.Doug Campbell would be an example of someone on here who 'lived the dream for sheep'.
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Holm-Made, I think Nate is looking at having under $5,000 in a DIY sheep hunt. I've been on a couple caribou hunts and while enjoyable they weren't sheep hunts.
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I would stay in it for the long haul. If you keep yourself in shape at 40 you will be prime to go. Don't give up on your dream, life is all to short to quit now.
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My best friend just got a sheep in WY with less than ten points. Hang in there. I wish I would have been buying those points before they went to $100. I'll probably keep working towards a CO archery tag and maybe someday be able to afford a Dall trip. Kind of like Chad said, lots of good hunting to be had with capital required for sheep chances. Glad I don't have the sheep bug as bad as some I know.
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Hey Ray, where can I find some of those just,"stand and stare" creatures? I've actually been to the end of the world and everything ran like the dickens when it saw me! When I first went to Australia years ago, I told them they should release desert bighorns there, as I thought it was a perfect place for them. To bad they didn't, they are probably thinking the same thing if they new what it cost to hunt them now!
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Oops, I reread Nate's first post. I originally thought he said it was 1000.00 a year for a point and he thought it would take 10 more years to have enough points. 10,000.00 plus cost of license, hunt and money already spent.
I apologize, it blew my mind when I thought the cost of the hunt would be upwards of 20 grand. I didn't have all the facts when I posted. Chad
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"no offense, Chad...but there really is something about being in a place where you 'feel' like you might be the only human who's ever set foot there
To see critters who instead of running the other way at the mere sight of you stand and stare because you are the first human they have ever seen
To hear the wolf's lonely call at night, to see the aurora borealis at 3am and wonder at the sight
To catch a fish on every cast that's bigger than the last one and that tastes so wonderful cooked right there on the shore at noon
To fly in a float plane
To meet natives who speak little if any english but who share the common bond of predator with you
To see country you have read of since childhood and dreamed of ever since
And if you get to share that with someone you becomes your friend, or who is already a friend?
Those are a few reasons why some heed the call..its not wrong if you don't..but its why some do."
Not one of those things requires a costly tag, multiple preference points or a lottery system...only if you want to posess the carcass.
I for one admire you Nate, for having your priorities where they are. As much as I LOVE to hunt, I also truly believe that when it comes time for me to check out, the most important things in my life will have been my family and friends. Hunting may well be a part of it, but where and what creatures will be of virtually no consequence.
Lenny
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right on, Lenny
That's what makes it even possible for those who want to to hunt sheep- if all of us did go for it, the tags would cost 1,000,000 and the preference points would be 10,000 a year.
I for one am glad people like to play guitar, water ski, do karaoke, chase women, drink liquor and play poker- it keeps them too busy to hunt so the rest of us can enjoy ourselves.
Some of us work to balance everything- its not a zero sum game- our families don't HAVE to suffer because we choose to hunt.
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My family WOULD suffer if I pursued hunting with the passion some guys do. I don't play guitar, water ski, do karaoke, chase women, drink liquor or play poker. My family would suffer for all those too.
I just don't know about you guys but I can't feel any shame in being a boring old dad with a 60 hour a week job. Kids taking up 90% of the rest. I don't figure I CAN'T go, I just don't want to. Same reason I take my family with me on most of my hunts knowing the odds are going way down. I work to balance everything too - and I think I found it!
It's not entirely that my family would have to suffer. I guess you could say I would suffer.
BTW - If anyone on here want's to feel true loneliness and being where others haven't been, I can take you out to Honey Island Swamp for a week. Me and the kids like it there too.
I like seeing you guys out there doing what you love. Post pictures. I do what I love too. Alot more I could say, but some things words can't express.
Nate: what ever you decide will be the right decision. Not because of what we say, but your words alone speak volumes about your character, your concerns and your desires. There is no shame in following your dreams, even if your dream changes, it's yours alone.
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Rick, I've had similar experiences with animals standing and staring as Ray mentions. By their actions I'm quite certain they had never seen a human before. Happened to me twice in one day while hunting Mt goats in BC a couple years ago. One billy actually approached to within fifteen yards or so of my guide and I after he spotted us from a distance.
Chad, your not far off on the cost of a Bighorn hunt in Canada now days. For those of us that have little chance of drawing a tag in one of the western states it might be our only option if we want to go on a Bighorn hunt in our lifetime. Most outfitters in Alberta and BC are charging around 25K for that experience.
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Jedi,
Your posts are full of wisdom, and I appreciate them.
It really comes down to priorities. Do I want to push on with the sheep dream? Perhaps, maybe I decide I would rather go to Texas and hunt pigs for 5 to 10 straight winters.
This has been quite the thread, I really never expected the response. I guess, when you bring up hunting dreams people get passionate. If we weren't passionate we wouldn't scrimp, sacrifice, save, and dream. We wouldn't spend days hot, cold, wet, thirsty. Sit in treestands for hours on end, chase one more bugle, glass the same mountainside one more time. You all know what I mean.
KEEP DREAMING!
Nathan
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Wow, once again lots of good input and thoughts here. We are talking dream hunts here, this particular hunt is sheep, but others on here have dreams of other spiecies. Like a comedian once said "I'm glad we are not all alike, if we were you all would be chasing my wife!"So I guess the truth is it's good some guys priorites is to work his life away and hardly ever hunt or spend all his time and money chasing dreams all over the country cause the woods around me would be crowed. Alot of my friends get down right mad or are jealous at me for hunting as much as I do but they will dump money on stuff I think is a waste.I honestly know several friends that every year spend tons of money on the newest latest hunting gizmos getting ready for bow season and yet get out MAYBE two weekends the entire season. But every stop at a convience store and they will buy 10 bucks in scratch off lottery tickets. I agree with Ray these guys need to stop belly aching and face the facts. But I guess I'm alot like Holm Made as I get to hunt ALOT and it sure recharges my battery well enough FOR ME! But now adays most of that hunting is within 4 to 6 hrs of my home. But like I said earlier I use to hunt far and wide and have experienced everything Ray mentioned. Funny thing is most of them I've experienced close to home also.
Another side of this story and it happens all too often is some poor smudge works two jobs, deprieves his family of his time and vacation time goes on his dream hunt and its the biggest farce ever. This happens alot even to some "famous" hunters who did their homework, heck there was even a article in TB not to long ago just like this.
But I kinda gotta disagree whole heartdly with Ray on it's not becoming a rich mans sport. I've read a couple articles lately, TJ editioral latest TB, Thomas another time, about a couple guys who just completed the grand slam traditionaly. Like them,my hats off to the guys but it's not my priority. Funny both say the reason is money and you'd think both have plenty IF it was there priority. Heck I'm probably as poor as anyone on here with two kids in college but if I wanted too bad enough I believe I could probably made a good stab at it myself if I'd kept at it. I still enjoy reading about their hunts just ain't my cup of tea.
Land leasing, license and tags etc is taking this sport away for the common man now adays.Hunter numbers are dropping every year now for lots of reasons but some of the reasons are opportunities to hunt and the expense of it for the average joe.I'm not complaining Ray cause I work hard for what I got, have never leased land or belonged to some private hunting club but I've got more private ground to hunt in several states than I have time to hunt and believe me I've got lots of time! I've traded home made knifes and TD recurve bows for some incredible hunts that I've probably spent less on than some folks do in eating out in a week. I love to hunt. Sure have enjoyed reading all the posts on this thread. Lots of good input. Kinda a passion of mine as I get bored of posts about string silencer placement, best HP string material,best carbon arrow, best broadhead 2 or 4 blade, etc etc after 35 years of carrying a stick and string around. Sad thing is like I said earlier alot of folks on here post daily about everything related to hunting but never seem to have time, money or ambition to get out and HUNT! Now I'm not talking about the folks who only shoots target or just enjoys watching a arrow fly that's fine if thats what blows their hair back,it's just that for me personally I pull the string back with one objective in mind, hunting.
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the most expensive hunts I've ever been on were a 2,950 elk hunt, and a 3,400 caribou hunt. I think you guys are missing the thrust of my arguments...its not how much you spend...its DOING IT that matters.
you do not have to spend money to hunt in a lot of cases. What Nate said was he would have 2500 dollars in a tag and 1000 bucks in bonus points..that to me is not a huge amount of money.
I wanted to hunt private ground around Atlanta for big bucks...they're there...but you just can't get to them without poaching. I figured out how to start an urban deer hunting program, and went out and got permission to hunt that private ground...for free.
I hunt hogs 12 months a year on thousands of acres in SC....its not my land...and I don't lease it. I met the man who owns it and we became great friends....
I trade hunts with people....I met a man from Tahiti this fall who wanted a whitetail deer...I helped him scout one out and he was successful..now he wants me to go to New Caledonia as his guest to hunt Rusa stags for two weeks while my wife stays with his as their houseguest in Tahiti!
I hunted pronghorn and mule deer in Wyoming every year for 5 years for the price of a tag, on thousands of acres of private ranches, in the Wyoming National Bowhunt....it didnt cost a lot of money, and the quality of the hunting was awesome.
I use Amex card to buy gas groceries, entertainment and we then have miles to get airline tickets for nothing. There are ways to keep your dreams alive without sacrificing your family's treasure, or not being a good parent.
My comment about karaoke, water skiing etc weren;t directed at anyone in particular, it wasn't being derogatory or smart alecky.....but there's something to be said about someone who cares enough about one thing to invest his energies in that one direction..its one of the reasons hunter numbers are not growing- kids have too many things to spend their time on-computer games, paintball, organized sports, 4 wheelers and dirt bikes..the list goes on forever.
They become masters of nothing, because they are drawn in too many directions. Sacrifice comes in many forms-its required, along with discipline, to get really good at most things.Look at Tiger Woods...his dad probably didn't have him playing football, tennis, baseball, and hunting much when he was growing up. He got pretty good at that golf thing though.
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Ray:
I don't disagree with much of what you say. Very little actually.
I have been on quite a few different hunts, for a number of different species. Many of the hunts I was successful in taking an animal and some I was not.
Looking back, I have come to realize, at least for me, that the joy in these hunts came from the people I was with, not the animals killed. I can honestly say that I have as much fun at our annual "carp camp" as I do at bear camp in Canada or deer camp in Pike County IL. I've never hunted sheep or Caribou but I bet it would be the same.
Lenny
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Hey.....I'm a guitar player 8^). And....I also hunt with a bow.
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that's what I'm talking about, Lenny.
Georgie, you're an exception though, a phenom for sure..plus you are a fantastic poet!!!!
I vote George Stout for America's next poet laureate.
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Nate,
Lots of different opinions here. I guess it all boils down to only "YOU" can answer the question.
Lenny, Nothing wrong with only taking pictures. In fact on a lot of my hunting trips that is all I did. Each time I have gone I had a tag in my pocket and a bow in my hand though. I just haven't gotten to the point where I'm satisfied to train for a year, fly to a distant place, climb a mountain and put myself in situations where my next step very well could be my last just to take pictures. But to each his own and if you can enjoy that more power to you. It certainly would cut down on some of the expense.
On more than one occasion after a dangerous or miserable situation I've had a guide turn to me and say "just think you paid good money to do this". In every case I have always gotten a good laugh out of it.... Because, I'm living my dreams.
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Nate, here is my answer to your original question, since I was in your shoes and had the same dream. Years ago I determined that only 2 western states offered a real chance for me to draw a bighorn sheep tag (WY and CO) because of their point system, while other states offered much lower chances.
With the big price increase in WY and only 7 points for sheep (and moose), I decided to drop out for sheep with 7 points but continue for moose in that state. I also put in for sheep in Montana, Arizona and NM most years. However, to increase my odds in the one remaining "good" state, I began applying for a ewe tag as a second choice and drew that tag last year in only my second try. So I realized my dream of bowhunting bighorn sheep and didn't compromise my chance for drawing a ram tag. As somebody else noted, you could probably draw a ewe tag in a year or two if you put that as your first choice but unfortunately the cost is high ($1750+).
Another of my dreams is to bowhunt mountain goats - that should happen one of these years in CO. Yet another dream is to bowhunt Shiris moose and that should happen in the next year in WY. Don't give up on your bowhunting dream(s). It just takes some careful planning and applying.
Final advice, since you are so close to Idaho - put in there for sheep too and use that NR license you must buy as an excuse to scout out areas for your future sheep hunt. Better than the WY point option IMO and you get to hunt more.
I hope this is useful.
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Jeff,
Good advice, and I am leaning along those lines. I am in the same boat as you in Wyoming, however, I may give up the moose thing. I certainly would like to hunt moose someday, but for the cost I could probably do an "adventure" hunt in Canada for not a whole lot more money.
I also would like to hunt elk in Arizona someday and am thinking in order to get the most "bang for the buck" there I will start applying for sheep, elk, and antelope in that state. I am also close enough to use that non-refundable license on a javelina/upland bird hunt as well.
Jeff: Let me know what you do for moose in Wyoming. Unless you have your heart set on an area I know some good options in Western Wyoming that you could possibly draw with seven points. I have seen some really good bulls in these areas as well. PM me if you would like more information.
Again, lots of good ideas here. Today I added up all the species and states I apply for and would like to apply for. The total capital needed to apply for everything I want to was $1835, with about $1300 of that being refundable. That is quite a bit of non-refundable money. I may have to tweak it a bit, but it helps to get it all down on paper and look it over.
Nathan
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I apply in most of the states that I'm able for sheep and a few states for other species.Last year it seems like I had $10,000 out in application fees with several hundred of that being nonrefundable.
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WOW,
$10,000, I know I can't afford that! Those numbers include applying in three states for sheep (just buying a point in Wyoming), Elk in 3 states, antelope in 2 states, deer in 1, moose in 1, and goat in one. Pretty well rounded list and should have me drawing some premium elk tags in the next few years, which really is my favorite hunt.
Nathan
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Nate,
At one time I loved to elk hunt and went most years. I think the thing I liked most about it most was hunting in the wilderness areas for days on end without seeing another person except a member of my hunting group. As more and more people started hunting these places it lost some of it's appeal and I quit going. I started hunting different species in other far off places looking for that wilderness experience.
I started applying for preference points in Colorado thinking one day I would return there and do a DIY elk hunt. I have fourteen points there now and could probably draw a tag in one of the best areas. In the next couple of years I'm sure I will do that but right now sheep, mt goats and where they live is on my mind.
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PM sent, Nate. I like your idea about AZ too, because with that NR tag you could experience some awesome rutting mule and coues deer hunting with OTC tags right now. I did just that in late January of 2005 and had a blast (except for the illegal aliens but that is another story). Regarding the money needed for such applications, I guess it wasn't smart but for years I borrowed many thousands of dollars to apply, much to my wife's dismay.
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Nate,
How many WY moose points do you have?
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I have 5 moose points. Right on the bubble of giving it up or staying with it. I could draw the areas I want within the next 3 years. Assuming tag numbers stay the same. Moose just isn't a huge priority for me right now. I just did it because it was only $7. I think the tag is around $1800 right now, and honestly I would rather put that towards a caribou hunt, my other major hunting dream. I just got my latest Bowhunting Safari Consultants catalog and the Caribou hunts really jumped this year. I don't want that to get out of reach too.
I would probably regret giving up the moose thing though.
Any thoughts Steve?
Nathan
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Nate,
I wouldn't give up on the moose either. Been on a couple of caribou hunts and they can be feast or famine. Both of mine were more of the famine variety. Had a friend that went to Quebec five times before he had a reasonable opportunity with a bow. Also, most caribou hunts can be done later in life when one might be in a better position to afford it.
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This has sure been an interesting thread to follow with many different ideas and thoughts on what to do. What I really see underlying everything though is that these tags and the applications for them are really tickets to dream. And if you are lucky and/or persistent enough, you can actually make your dreams come true eventually.
My wife buys a lottery ticket once in a while when the jackpot gets really high. I don't think she really thinks that someday she will hit it and we will be rich. But she does seem to get some enjoyment just from being able to dream about what it would be like to win.
I prefer to put my money into hunting tag applications. I stand a much better chance of being a winner in one of those, and for me, the dreams themselves partly justify the costs. I wish I would have entered more States earlier, but I look at it as both an investment in future hunts and a chance to dream in the meantime.
Jacks investment of $10,000 sounds crazy at first glance, but if all but a few hundred is refundable is not quite as bad. Most of us won't go anywhere near that extreme, but to put out 2 or 3 thousand knowing most of it comes back can be possible.
I'm a banker, and I have seen the trouble people get in with credit cards, so don't take this wrong. But if you had one card that you used only for tag applications, paid the interest on the money while the Game & Fish departments held onto it, it might cost you a hundred or two each year in interest to play that game. The key is to make sure to pay the balances off when the refunds come back. If you don't think you will do that, don't even try this game.
It all boils down to how bad do you want to do it. Like Ray said, I'm glad not everyone does, because the fewer people in the better my chances. But if things like this are important and you really want to do it someday, don't sit around thinking you will do it when you get older. It takes time, planning, money, and persistance to make your dreams happen.
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I think you have too many moose points to give up.
My wife use to live in WY and has many points, I sure wish she could give them to me!
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I have been buying the $7 sheep and moose points since they began offering them. I wrassled with this issue last year and elected to get out of the game and let my sheep points go. I am 51 and don't know if I would be able to hunt sheep in another 10 years. There are probably a lot of people like me and that will benefit the younger point chasers like yourself. I am keeping up with the moose though. I have given up on sheep. It was an ego thing for me and as I get older I have less of that to cloud my judgement. I would rather be able to retire early and do more of what I enjoy most, hunting elk, antelope, mule deer and bears in Wyoming. If the stars align and depending on Berkshire Hathaway returns I should be a Wyoming resident in 6-8 years. I should be able to draw a good moose tag by then. My dream is to take my own packstring into the thorofare and hunt elk where Teddy Roosevelt did. The state of Wyoming says I can't do that unless I am a state resident or have a resident guide hold my hand. I have my priorities and with only mild regret they don't include sheep. Your priorities may change as you get older. I spent the weekend in Sundance Wyoming looking at real estate for my retirement villa, getting ready to make it happen. Good luck on that sheep hunt.
WyG&F, stands for Wyoming Gouge and Fleece.
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I think you could kill a lot of elk, moose, deer and other cool critters, (like sika deer with your buddy Tim in Maryland) for 10K. Never really had the urge to kill sheep for the money it costs. But a dream is a dream...
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Steve K.,
You know something I don't know. Tell Tim he doesn't call me enough!
Yeah, I will probably stay in the moose game one more year and see what life brings. I could probably draw the area I want in about 3 years.
Nathan
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Nate,
Sika deer provide a really unique hunt. You really should take advantage of the opportunity Tim provides on the eastern shore. (I work with him) We've got places to take you if you hadn't thought about it...
I'll give him the message.
Steve