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Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: leftyfred on May 30, 2014, 10:36:00 AM
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In the new Missouri Conservationist I received yesterday, the Dept of Conservation released this in it's new whitetail management strategy. "In an effort to increase participation, recruit younger hunters, retain older hunters, and provide an additional tool for urban deer management, we are considering expanding the archery season to include crossbows." In my opinion, this is a horrible decision for the state of Missouri. The deer are not going to be subject to any movement preceeding a shot, nor be immune to a shot of 70 yards or more. I am very disappointed in this decision, and plan on attending a meeting in the Springfield area on June 17th to voice my complaint. Anyone else concerned, take a look at you conservationist to determine a meeting date in your area. Mike
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They've already done this in Pennsylvania. I'm torn on the issue myself.
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If it brings younger hunters I'm for it. The real question what will it do to the deer heard? Not much. Maybe a few thousand more deer. I would trade that for all the extra rifle seasons we have
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We have been having crossbows in Louisiana for a few years now (anybody can shoot them in archery season) and they do not kill any more deer than compound bows do. You would think they would but they don't.
X-bow users VERY SOON learn that they have no more lethality than a compound bow. In other words "if you can't kill it with a compound, you can't kill it with an x-bow". They are however more accurate for a person who doesn't practice shooting enough, so I say fewer wounded deer is a good thing.
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They keep doing stuff like that in Louisiana.Crossbows,muzzel loaders with scope or almost modern bullets.It is all about selling more licenses for more revenue.Our state is broke and probably a bunch of others.Kip
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No big deal, they have no more range than a compound and the biggest change I've seen since IN has opened it up is kids using them. I'd rather have new blood in hunting than not involved at all. I know 1 teen girl that won't hunt with anything else. Doesn't like shooting guns but will take her Xbow out during archery and firearms seasons. I don't really care for them, but to each his/her own.
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I respectfully disagree with using a crossbow to bring younger hunters to the sport of archery. If a crossbow is an attractant to a younger hunter to harvest an animal, that is ok, just don't call it archery. We have so many instant gratification avenues for kids, how about trying something that takes some effort? My sons have shot bows for years and never had the privilege of hunting until mature. If an inner city kid wants to hunt lawn deer with a crossbow, do it in gun season where triggers are allowed. I refuse to accept easier methods to harvest a clever, super intelligent animal to pacify a new group of kids that already sit on their butts and only use their thumbs on a screen. If they want to bowhunt, parents mentor them, teach them archery, discipline, and respect for their prey. If they fall in love with the sport, great. If it is too much effort, they would be most likely to give up on a difficult blood trail in 15 minutes. Is that who we want with an archery tag in their pocket? Mike
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AL did it several years ago as well. I was living there when it came in. I was more scared of the nut cases that thought they could drop one in it's tracks at 100yds. Can't say if anyone ever got hurt, but it sure made me stick close to home that first year.
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I'm pretty sure lots of guys have been shooting deer with crossbows already, guess they've decided to go ahead & make it legal. I can only think of the movie phrase, show me the money! Hunting has become big business, look at all the goodies on the market. Electric huntin buggies that cost more than a truck, $400 camera systems, $600 camo outfits, it goes on & on. I admit sometimes I do get a little jealous when I see some of the neater stuff & know I can't afford it. Then I stop & realize the real reason I'm in the woods. I can have just as much if not more fun in the woods without it.
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& NO I'm not in favor of crossguns in BOW season.
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Mike- Welcome to Michigan. We have trigger devices in the woods from Sept-January. Pitiful!
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I'm with you, John. This whole argument of recruiting young hunters is a pile of horse hockey. What a bunch of hypocrites! They say that using an device that's "easier" or has a flatter learning curve will recruit more kids. Yet they also say we need to tell our youth that anything worth having is worth working for. Well, which is it?
If we want to make everything easier to recruit more youth participation, why don't we lower basketball goals to 6 feet so everyone can dunk or shorten a football field to 50 yards so Little Johnny doesn't have so far to run.
Give me a freaking break!
Darren
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Mike I agree with you 100%. If a person young or old isn't willing to put forth the effort required to shoot a compound accurately(which isn't much) then they don't deserve the PRIVILEGE of participating in the ARCHERY season.
Darren
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Archery season used to mean you were a dedicated hunter willing to give up the extra range of a gun and work harder and practice for that coveted close shot.
Now it is just about how lazy can you be and still get to hunt in archery season.
And I'm all about taking kids hunting as I did it a lot with mine and some others. But a 7 or 8 year old kid doesn't need to be shooting deer at that age. They need to be learning what hunting is about instead of being gratified by using a crossbow. When they can pull a bow of decent weight and prove they're ready mentally, let them hunt.
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Instant gratification will cause more harm than good,hope that Missouri doesn't allow crossbow for general use in the archery season.
Youth need to be at some time told they will have to wait or earn it!!
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I have used one and sorry to say I am using one now.Old age and arthritis has been creeping up to where I can get around so well like I used to.Cant shoot a bow like I used too either.Now all I can shoot is one of the 32# bows I have and that wont get it for hunting.
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Here in AL they're getting to be pretty popular, but as I can hunt my own land I haven't had to worry as much. Yes, it's archery, but I'm betting if I showed up with a cho ko nu (Chinese repeating crossbow, self cocking and loading) they'd probably rethink their decision. It saves deer from marginal weight shots, but I'm not so sure it makes their aim any better.
I don't think anyone's downing the disabled for using them here. I'm still hunting with my horsebows after becoming wheelchair bound as a result of my genetic condition, but for a disabled hunter I see no shame. It's the lazy people that I take exception to. There's no room for laziness when hunting.
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I like them myself. I would use a recurve type crossbow if the mood suited me. I also like trad bows though and find that they have several advantages over any cross bow if you can get good enough. I have no problem with them.
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it is all about money.... a crossbow allows someone to buy one in the morning...spend 30 minutes sightin in the scope...and be in the woods that evening to "bowhunt" when they have no real interest in bowhunting and only want what is EASY and the current fad as seen on television.
they are NOTHING like bows....they have a stock, a trigger, optical sights and can be cocked and carried like that almost indefinitely..even with bolt loaded and ready to go. When time comes you put crosshair or red dot on animal and squeeze trigger with absolutely NO MOVEMENT for the animal to detect. NO CHALLENGE at all other than getting close...and even then a 30-40yd shot is no problem even for a beginner. It is all about instant gratification, no effort, and more sales for AMA and state in licenses....and is not bowhunting.
I dont believe the hype about exposing kids to bowhunting as it is nothing related to bowhunting....teach them to shoot a fiberglass youth bow...then move up to glass backed recurve or longbow...archery is about being hand drawn, hand released, held in mostly vertical position with arrows.
When I see men that are blind, have lost fingers, have loss of muscle mass, arthritis shooting traditional bows....I lose any acceptance of everyone saying they do it for medical reasons.
For myself...if I ever get to where I cannot draw a bow myself that is of suitable hunting weight....then I will stop bowhunting and pick up my old .54cal front loading true muzzleloader with iron sights, granuled black powder and lead ball or conical bullets ignited with flint or #11 percussion caps....none of this scoped, pellet, sabot bullet, shotgun primer, rear primed rifles that just happen to shoot something with black powder components that are accurate out over 200 yds all day long.
I will instead mentor my grand children, nephews and nieces and neighborhood kids on what real bowhunting and archery is.....help them shoot...help them build osage and hickory selfbows...and teach them woodsmanship, animal characteristics, and that shooting a doe or small buck is every bit as challenging and commendable as the farm raised deer and multi-thousand dollar canned hunts where the "Pro " or their child shows up and shoots a 180+ deer for their FIRST DEER!
Primitive weapon seasons were started to give primitive hunters an option to hunt without competing with the modern weapons. Allowing modern muzzleloaders and crossbows into these primitive seasons is an abomination....and only there to make money. If these people really loved bowhunting and muzzleloader hunting they would be using the intended weapons. THey are trying to get more animals on the ground using the most technology legally allowed for instant gratification without any or minimal effort...same as most do with rifles and shotguns...they shoot them one time if lucky to sight in and dont touch them until they pull the trigger again on an animal.
It disgusts me....
Now if someone wants to use a crossbow in the general firearms season...so be it...more power to them and as long as they make every effort to be practiced with the weapon and take ethical shots....good on them if it keeps them in the woods.
Just keep it out of the bowhunting seasons....even if person is claiming disability...doesnt matter...shoot it in general firearms season....nothing says everyone has to be able to do anything they want to do...sometimes you just dont have the skill or the physical stamina. In those cases you focus on other sports or options...you dont force the multitude to lower the standards so you can try it out using a weapon that has nothing in common with those that you claim to aspire.
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I guess I should have clarified my point. Primitive crossbows I still consider part of archery, what with no sights and much effort needed in cocking and resetting the machine. The new ones are pretty much bowguns.
I know that I'm in your category of people who do anyway with disease-two strokes, untreatable damage leaving me wheelchair bound and a genetic condition trashing my body and I still shoot a 45-50 pound horn bow for hunting. I've seen people who are injured worse than me and I wonder what to do for them. There's nothing like being unable to do what you could before. It's its own special hell. Do we give them compounds with 95% letoff? Do we allow only them to use crossbows? what do we do?
I agree with getting them out of our bow season. Just a little research convinced me of that. But how do we help our disabled hunters best-especially all the vets that come back torn apart that still would hunt and defend our rights in the woods?
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I just don't see any real difference between a 85% let off compound with optical sights, a trigger release, and a 32 in ata length. If we allow that in the archery season then we should allow crossbows. A lot of people talk about how it's so easy to shoot a crossbow but really it's no easier than a compound. As an example I wanted my dad to bow hunt with me. He has never bow hunted before and said he didn't have the time to dedicate to trad. So we went out and got him a compound. After getting sighted in he had a 20 yard group of 4 inches. That's in about 10 minutes and had never shot a bow before, I doubt you could do much better with a crossbow and the two weapon's trajectories are nearly identical. It took me a year of practicing 5 days a week to be able to do that sometimes. Often my groups at 20 were closer to 8 inches. I don't care though. I like to hunt with trad gear because I enjoy it I just dig it and accept that I have pretty big disadvantages. If it gets my old man out hunting with me then I say ok. If it gets other people out to hunt then that's ok with me too.
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Well said Darren !!!
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We should leave the disabled out of this because everyone knows they have been able to getb crossbow permits for many years.
It seems like quite of few of the folks who are more accepting of the croosbow are younger people. If I'm wrong on this then I'm wrong.
However I don't think many of those have any idea of or even bother to look back at the history of bowhunting and what it took to even make it legal.
Maybe then they would start to understand why we try to protect the sanctity of a true bowhunting season. Unfortunately now it seems to be a "how quick can I kill something and get back home" type of hunt. Do we want hunters who aren't interested enough to work a little bit to learn to bowhunt, but still want in our season with a weapon that mostly resembles the rifle they normally use?
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Crossbows were legalized a few years ago in Michigan and they have LITERALLY taken over.
The DNR requires a free stamp to be obtained, I guess so they can THINK they know how many people are hunting with one...I can tell you, most people DO NOT get the stamp.
I spent a lot of time hunting ALL OVER the state on public land, and I ran into DOZENS of other "bowhunters" and only ONE was carrying a compound...O N E !!!!! The rest were crossbows.
I find it interesting, that in the outdoor magazines and publications that when someone kills a deer with a BOW, it is usually in the picture...now with crossbows, they show the picture, the date which tells you it was killed in bow season, but there is NO BOW in the picture...this is because it was killed with a CROSSGUN and not a bow.
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Missouri is allowing the public to comment on the idea in the following link:
http://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/public-notices/deer-management-open-houses/deer-management-comments
This link is being sent around to the x bow users to try to rally support, and I think it would be a good idea to take 5 minutes to let them know where we stand on this as well. I submitted my statement today.
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Good luck Missouri. New York now allows them for parts of archery season. BUT, in NY you will need a muzzleloading tag to hunt with one in archery season, and not an archery tag. I guess our leaders here think they are closer to a muzzle loading rifle than a bow...
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I have no problem with people hunting with X-guns. I just have a major problem with them being legal during archery season.
Why not just allow rifles during muzzle loader season? Rifles, like muzzle-loaders, shoot a bullet shaped projectile - just a little further, faster, and more accurate; X-guns must be bows too because they shoot an arrow-shaped projectile - just further, faster, and more accurate.
It has nothing to do with getting kids involved - it also, as they are claiming, has nothing to do with herd management.
It has EVERYTHING to do with selling more tags and more crossbows, and it makes me sick that our conservation systems are working so hard to develop the European model of hunting here in America.
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Originally posted by bjansen:
Missouri is allowing the public to comment on the idea in the following link:
http://mdc.mo.gov/about-us/public-notices/deer-management-open-houses/deer-management-comments
This link is being sent around to the x bow users to try to rally support, and I think it would be a good idea to take 5 minutes to let them know where we stand on this as well. I submitted my statement today.
Thanks for the link! I've left my comments, and I even tried to sound civil about it (although I'm infuriated because it's 100% about how many permits and crossbows they can sell).
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I'm not happy with the crossbow decision by our Conservation Department. I'm not close minded to the idea of allowing crossbows to bring people in, but , human nature being what it is, I'm afraid that many will just use it as an easy way out.
I also don't care for being allowed to use centerfire pistols during blackpowder season; I don't blackpowder hunt myself, but this just doesn't seem right either.
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Just got this today 2/3/15 via email. Public meetings regarding crossbow regulations and season limit changes are now scheduled. Also online comments available. More details below:
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MDC seeks public input on proposed deer hunting regulation changes
Possible changes involve firearms season lengths, use of crossbows, archery bag limits, regulations on conservation areas, and non-resident permit fees.
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. – The Missouri Department of Conservation (MDC) is seeking public input on proposed changes to the state’s deer hunting regulations for the 2016-2017 hunting season.
For the fall firearms deer season, MDC proposes:
Maintaining the current timing of the November portion but reducing the length from 11 days to nine days,
Expanding the late youth firearms weekend from two days to three days and having it begin the Friday after Thanksgiving instead of early January,
Reducing the length of the antlerless firearms portion from 12 days to three days and beginning it on the first Friday in December, and
Eliminating the urban zones portion.
For the fall archery deer and turkey season, MDC proposes:
Allowing crossbows as a legal method, and
Reducing the limit of antlered deer during the archery season from two to one.
MDC also proposes simplifying conservation area regulations and also wants public comment on permit fees for nonresidents regarding a possible increase, decrease, or no change in price.
The proposed regulation changes are a result of public input and MDC deer management research and practices. During the summer of 2014, MDC gathered more than 4,000 public comments on deer management and possible regulation changes through open houses, online comments, letters and emails. MDC also surveyed many deer hunters regarding potential regulation changes. MDC staff will present final regulations recommendations to the Conservation Commission in late 2015.
MDC WELCOMES PUBLIC COMMENT
To explain the proposed changes and gather public feedback, MDC will hold the following public meetings around the state from 5 to 8 p.m.:
Feb. 24 – MDC Burr Oak Woods Nature Center, 1401 N.W. Park Road in Blue Springs;
Feb. 26 – MDC Powder Valley Nature Center, 11715 Cragwold Road in Kirkwood;
March 3 – MDC Springfield Nature Center, 4601 S. Nature Center Way in Springfield;
March 5 -- West Plains Civic Center, 110 St. Louis St. in West Plains;
March 10 – MDC Cape Girardeau Nature Center, 2289 County Park Drive in Cape Girardeau;
March 12 – MDC Northeast Regional Office, 3500 S. Baltimore in Kirksville;
March 16 – MDC Central Regional Office, 3500 E. Gans Road in Columbia; and
March 31 – MDC Northwest Regional Office, 701 James McCarthy Drive in St. Joseph.
MDC also welcomes public comments online. To learn more about the proposed regulations, MDC’s deer management plan, past public comments, and to provide comment, visit the Department’s website at mdc.mo.gov/node/28079.
Mail comments to: Missouri Department of Conservation, Attn: Policy Coordination, P.O. Box 180, Jefferson City, MO 65102.
RATIONALE FOR REGULATION CHANGES
MDC expanded the November portion of firearms deer season to 11 days in 1995 in response to a rapidly growing deer population in many parts of the state. Deer numbers in most parts of Missouri are now at or below desired levels. According to MDC biologists, reducing the length of the November portion by two days will help increase those numbers.
The Department’s reasoning for changing the timing of the late youth portion from early January to the weekend after Thanksgiving is that it should increase youth-hunter participation and success as a result of better deer activity and weather conditions. Adding the Friday after Thanksgiving will provide an additional hunting day when schools are closed.
MDC anticipates that reducing the length of the antlerless season from 12 days to three days will help increase deer numbers to more desirable levels. The antlerless portion of the firearms deer season was implemented in 1996 to increase the harvest of female deer, or does, in response to a rapidly growing deer population in many parts of the state. The deer population in most of Missouri is currently at or below desired levels.
According to MDC, eliminating the urban zones portion of the firearms season is being considered because firearms hunting in urban zones is significantly limited by city ordinances and safety concerns. As a result, this portion does not significantly lower deer numbers in areas where urban deer conflicts occur.
The department anticipates that allowing crossbows as a legal method during the archery deer and turkey season will help younger hunters enter the sport and also prolong participation for older hunters. MDC research shows that most deer hunters are in favor of allowing crossbows during the archery season and bow hunters are about equally divided on the topic.
Reducing the buck harvest during archery season from two to one per hunter will make hunters more selective and help more bucks reach older age-classes. Regulations allowing bow hunters to harvest two bucks were implemented in 1988 when there were fewer than 100,000 individuals with a permit to hunt deer during the archery season compared to more than 180,000 in 2013. Also, the harvest of bucks by bow hunters has nearly doubled from 11 percent of the total harvest in 2000 to 19 percent in 2013.
The Department anticipates that simplifying deer hunting regulations on conservation areas to archery only, archery and muzzleloader only, or archery and firearms will both increase hunter satisfaction and allow area managers to adjust regulations based on current deer numbers.
MDC permit fees for nonresident hunters are competitive with those of surrounding states and have remained the same since 2009.
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Representatives from several conservation minded organizations (United Bowhunters of Missouri, Missouri Bowhunters Association, Conservation Federation of Missouri, etc.) will be meeting with Mike Hubbard (MDC Division Chief) and Tom Draper (MDC Assistant Director) on February 11th, 2015 to discuss the crossbow issue.
One group that will be notably absent at this meeting is the Missouri Crossbow Hunters Association. Why? Because they don't exist!
If there is such a push by Missouri citizens to include crossbows in archery season then why isn't there an organization to lobby on their behalf? Hell, even the atlatl users have the Missouri Atlatl Association and you know there aren't too many of those guys.
There are currently 42 days in Missouri where it is legal to use crossbows to hunt deer. Many of those days overlap with the state's archery season. If there is such a desire to hunt with these weapons then why don't I see the woods full of people toting them around during these 42 days? I'll answer that myself. It's because most of those days it is also legal to use a firearm. It's easier to hunt with a firearm so why use a crossbow? Likewise, the folks who want to use crossbows in archery season think why spend my time learning to use a real bow if I could use a crossbow instead?
Darren Haverstick
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Well said, Darren.
I don't want to get started here cause I'm trying to watch my blood pressure. There are so many things wrong with this it's ridiculous.
I will be at the meetings when they get to my area.
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I just got their email and politely replied my comments bluntly and politely.
Glad you can meet with them Darren! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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A big thanks to Darren, Brian, Tom, Dick and any others member of United Bowhunters of MO who can make the time to do this.
Lots of people sacrifice their time to ensure out bowhunting heritage can continue.
Too bad a lot of members of a site like this can't even bother to join a group who protects their hunting heritage
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We had our meeting yesterday with MDC Assistant Director Tom Draper, MDC Division Chief Mike Hubbard and Conservation Commissioner Jim Blair. Organizations representing the archery community included the Missouri Bowhunters Association, United Bowhunters of Missouri, Archery Big Bucks of Missouri, Conservation Federation of Missouri and the Pope and Young Club.
Overall, I think it went well. Draper and Blair took a lot of notes, explained to us how the regulation approval process worked and made clear that this was not a done deal. Blair even said that he personally does not like crossbows. I believe the attendants did a good job of shooting holes in MDC's assertion that including crossbows in archery season would recruit new hunters and retain old ones.
Mr. Hubbard said that the push for crossbow inclusion was coming from the general public. The validity of this push was questioned by the mere fact that no pro-crossbow representative of the general public was in the room.
I also brought up the point that MDC's own data shows that, sadly, the majority of hunters in the state only buy tags one or two years in a row. Do we really want this group of people influencing long term policy when they might not even be participating come September?
Lastly, it was made clear that everyone in the room felt that archery hunting was about tradition, heritage and somewhat of a rite of passage. Even MDC touts these traits about hunting in general. So, with everyone agreeing on this point, then how do crossbows in archery season fit in with this sentiment when surveys show that the majority of folks who want to use them do so because crossbows are "easier" to use and the learning curve is much less steep? Plus, when these same folks learn that crossbows are not necessarily so easy to use, they abandon them altogether and quit hunting. So much for recruitment and retention!
We will see what happens...
Darren
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You don't want crossguns in archery season. We have it here in PA I am hearing that the PGC is looking hard at the increased number of bucks taken before the rut. Could end up negatively impacting your archery season. Also expect more deer drives with crossgun use....gun hunting mentality will carry over.
Ron
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I suppose I am the lone voice in support of crossbows. I will be at the town hall meeting on the 28th to voice my support. I have no problems with crossbows and I think they belong in archery season. I hunt with traditional bows because I like them and enjoy the challenge but, I see no reason to exclude crossbows. I really do think they will bring more people into the sport. I am an example! I started with a crossbows and thought it was so much fun that I had to go out and get a "real bow" now I am hooked! Lol anyway please don't be rude I respect your guy's opinions about why crossbows shouldn't be allowed I simply do not agree. To me they are archery and belong in that season.
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Alternatively I think one of the best compromises we could make would be to allow the use of crossbows in archery only areas since, most of those areas are designated that way for safety, but only during the rifle and muzzleloader portion of the season.
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There is a water fountain in that big mall up north, it is big enough to paddle a canoe around. Just think a wilderness experience with an orange Julius stand just a few yards away. Hunting is becoming more like that every year. What dnr departments and state legislators are doing is a joke. Nothing is done for the sake of the experience, adventure, a wilderness ethic or the challenge, it is all about money and nothing but money. In Iowa the public hunting areas are just like shopping malls, there are cameras everywhere, people running around with all kinds of contraptions, the fight to get in just the right spot. Anything it takes to get the big deer and be the big man is justified. Gun and crossbow companies are owned by bigger companies and they have money to spend. They spend it on politicians. The argument that it will bring more hunters to the sport doesn't fly. What archery needs is hunters that are willing to work to take on a challenge, hunters with ethics and backbone, that is what started the archery seasons in the first place. It was something that non-hunting politicians could admire. There is nothing to admire about gadget laden woods with hunters that have weapons that take very little practice that anyone can sort of master in a few minutes. If we cannot sell the idea of taking up hunting as a challenge and an adventure with an ethic for the love of wild places, it is obvious that we really have nothing to sell. It is disturbing to me, how shallow people have become.
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This may be true in Iowa but MO has one of the best (if not the best) Conservation Departments in the country! They are completely independent of the politicians in the Capitol. What's more they have there own source of funding that is substantial and cannot be touched by any other organization per our state constitution. There is a 1/10th of 1 percent tax of every outdoor related product in the state. That's not just guns and bows but, fishing gear, binoculars, back packs, trail bikes, canoes, kayaks, and more. I have 4 1000 acre + conservation areas within a 20 minutes of me and yes while you will have to occasionally pack out some slobs trash you will find no cameras, no orange Julius', and if you go deep off the trail to get to the good spots you will have yo pack out your buck on your lonesome as they do not allow vehicles of any kind. This is the situation throughout most of the state. If they have decided to try adding crossbows it is truly due to public input and not some greed corporate pressure. X-bows would represent just a drop in the bucket.
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Jake, I'm going to have to disagree with you on a couple things. First thing however I will agree that we have probably the best Conservation Dept in the country. However it is coming under increasingly heavy fire from our legislators. If you are not aware of the recent bills filed trying to dismantle our dept and take away funding, then I suggest you research that.
Yes the dept says public input says to allow crossbows, but their surveys are flawed in whom they ask. When you ask firearms hunters if crossbows should be allowed, what do you think the answer will be?
I think you are a younger man and should possibly research the history of archery hunting in our fair state to try to understand what was accomplished to get archery seasons here.
Also archery hunting has always been portrayed as a challenge, but the modern hunters want to try to make everything easier. Contradiction? I think so.
Crossbows are not archery equipment with a stock and a trigger and a scope and will never be considered archery to me.
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Dnovo. While I don't think we will agree on the crossbow issue. I am aware of what is going on in Jeff City. I have sent a few emails but, it looks like time for letters as well. I haven't heard if the MO farm bureau is behind this like most of the other times. Do you know if this is the case? When will these guys get it and back off.
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Jake,
Actually the consensus is that a lot of it is retaliation from the deer breeders being shot down last year trying to take control of captive deer from the MDC.
Several legislators have actually said so.
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What a lot of B.S. I called and left one message and spoke to another aid for my locals from both the general assembly and the senate today. I let them know that A) I am a registered voter, B) I vote in local elections and while I swing republican I am independent and C) that I would be watching carefully their votes on these 8 bills. I will also make a call to Mr. Nixon's office to tell him (again) how pleased I was about his veto. I don't usually do that kinda thing but, the MDC is one of the few issue that gets me on the phone or writing letters.
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Besides contacting your elected officials personally, I think it's really important to become a member of the Conservation Federation of Missouri. This organization is the political hammer we can use on the knuckleheads in Jeff City. Also, CFM has the clout to steer policy inside of the Missouri Department of Conservation.
The CFM annual convention is the weekend of March 20th-22nd at the Capitol Plaza Hotel in Jefferson City. It is open to the public and this where a lot of big time decisions are made concerning the MDC regulations.
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Thanks for the heads up man. I am gonna join up.
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Update from MDC:
If you are able to attend any of the open house meetings, it sure will help to get our opinions heard.
Update About Deer Open House Meetings
Tuesday evening was the third of eight open house meetings conducted by the Missouri Department of Conservation to gather public input regarding the deer regulations under consideration for the 2016-2017 season and to offer a comment opportunity for the non-resident hunting permit fee structure.
Attendance at the meetings has included:
108 in Blue Springs, on Tuesday, February 24
198 in Kirkwood, on Thursday, February 26
72 in Springfield, on Tuesday, March 3
The open house format provides an opportunity for one-on-one discussions with Department staff. Missourians can ask questions and give us their thoughts about the proposed deer season changes and conservation.
YOUR IDEAS COUNT, WE WANT YOUR OPINIONS
To explain the proposed changes and gather public feedback, the following public open house meetings are still available around the state from 5 to 8 p.m.:
March 5 -- West Plains Civic Center, 110 St. Louis St. in West Plains;
March 10 – MDC Cape Girardeau Nature Center, 2289 County Park Drive in Cape Girardeau;
March 12 – MDC Northeast Regional Office, 3500 S. Baltimore in Kirksville;
March 16 – MDC Central Regional Office, 3500 E. Gans Road in Columbia; and
March 31 – MDC Northwest Regional Office, 701 James McCarthy Drive in St. Joseph.
MDC also welcomes public comments online. To learn more about the proposed regulations, MDC’s deer management plan, past public comments, and to provide comment, visit the Department’s website at mdc.mo.gov/node/28079.
Mail comments to: Missouri Department of Conservation, Attn: Policy Coordination, P.O. Box 180, Jefferson City, MO 65102.
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I attended the Springfield open house and there wasn't any information offered there than one can't get from the MDC website. Also, any questions asked that weren't already answered in the preprinted material were met with "deer in the headlights" stares. We were told several times to fill out the comment cards to make our voices heard. I can do that from home. Overall, I wasn't too impressed.
One thing of value that I did hear from a MDC employee was that the crossbow inclusion issue was being pushed by the MDC leadership at the top.
Darren
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I used to despise the crossbow and fought their inclusion in the agencies where I worked.
Then we did a survey of bowhunters in KY and to my surprise only 21% objected to them in the archery season, 20% wanted them, and the other 59% didn't care.
I'm still not a fan of the crossbow because it isn't bowhunting as I've known it. Also, it is no more of a youth hunting tool than a .243...much adult supervision and assistance is required. It is a life-style extender for folks who develop injury as they get older. My best friend of 69 years is now only able to bow hunt with crossbows. It makes him sick (past IBO world champ with curves) but not as sick as sitting home remembering.
The Missouri Dept. of Conservation is one of the top 5 in the United States. You don't have to agree with everything proposed but please let's disagree in a respectful and thoughtful manner. I've sat before Commissions and listened to a few bowhunters just destroy their credibility.
By the way, I learned yesterday that it takes about 5-7 years after a new crossbow season is put in affect for the "archery" harvest to be 50:50 vertical vs. crossbow. This is not overall increased harvest it is just lots of firearms guys killing with crossbows instead of their rifles and 20% or so of vertical guys making the switch as well.
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Roy, has anybody crunched the numbers to show if there is any increase in harvest percent success as we would expect ?
Last fall was Wisconsin's first full inclusion and the numbers show about one third of the "archery" deer were killed with a cross bow ( vs vertical bow).
It also appeared to show that gun harvest was at about 46% success, vertical bow was at about 30% and crossbow was at about 42%. This was arrived at by comparing the state's numbers of licenses reported sold vs the numbers of deer killed in each class.
First year and it was almost, within a few points, as high a success rate as rifles.
Who'da guessed.
ChuckC
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My $.02
I think it will increase total harvest with all the gun guys taking up the crossbow and also hunting gun season.
I am NOT in favor of crossbows being included in bow season. They can already be used in gun season and in archery by disabled folk. Why make it any easier? Tag sales??
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MDC's mantra for crossbow inclusion is that it will provide more opportunities for folks to hunt. Now I am all in favor of more people taking up hunting but it really, really bothers me that the "Easy Button" mentality has crept into the hunting community. Bowhunting is not supposed to be easy - that's why most of us do it, for the challenge. My middle-class work ethic tells me that if I want to succeed at something then I need to work hard at achieving that success. I guess I am in the minority, though. People don't want to put in the time to become proficient with a real bow. They just want to buy some pre-packaged weapon, practice for a half hour and hit the woods. I don't consider these people hunters. They are just people who hunt.
Darren
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I think a reasonable compromise would be to allow their use in archery only areas during gun and alternative season. The main issue I see here is access. You have to drive quite a ways sometime is you are a suburban hunter to find an areas that allows rifles for safety reasons. Example I am 15-30 minutes away from 4 conservation areas that are archery only. My closest area that allows rifles is an hour and a half. From a safety standpoint crossbows are in the same class as compounds. So why not open up these archery only area's to crossbows but, only in rifle season.
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Dhaverstick. With respect I disagree. My pops is a compound hunter. He keeps all his shots within 20 and only practices a half hour or once or twice a month. On the flip side he works a lot saving up for that retirement you know but, is my frequent scouting buddy. We scout nearly year round. He's as much a hunter as I am.
Bowwild-I couldn't have said that any better myself.
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The MDC Regulations Committee meets at 8:30 am on Thursday, July 2nd to discuss the proposal for crossbow inclusion. The meeting will be held at MDC headquarters (2901 W. Truman Boulevard) in Jefferson City. If you feel strongly about this issue, I encourage you to attend this meeting. I know several folks will be addressing the committee to explain why they think this is a bad idea.
Darren
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Well, I attended the Regulations Committee meeting and the end result was not good but not unexpected. Several folks spoke to the committee in opposition to the inclusion of crossbows but it all fell on deaf ears. When the proposal came up for a vote, there was no discussion or anything and the proposal passed unanimously. It was obvious to everyone in the room that the decision had been made long before the meeting was held.
Now the passed regulation change proposals will be sent to the MDC Director and he, in turn, will make his recommendations to the Conservation Commission. I think the Commission will make their decisions sometime in the middle of September.
Darren
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Thanks for the update, Darren....
I wish the outcome would have been different.
Rodd
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"It was obvious to everyone in the room that the decision had been made long before the meeting was held."
And I bet a dollar to a donut the commission already knows what their decision will be in September.
I couldn't make the meeting but have sent numerous emails.
Thanks for being there Darren....
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Kenny, it was a sad state of affairs. There were eight of us that addressed the committee and all were in opposition to the crossbow proposal. There was no one in the room, other than MDC personnel, that identified themselves as for the proposal. Yet our voices carried no weight.
State deer biologist, Jason Sumners, had the last word and gave his presentation showing no adverse effects on the deer herd due to crossbow inclusion. His data also showed that, in other states, it is older hunters that make up the majority of the crossbow users. I thought this was interesting and it was rather unexpected as I thought it would be the younger crowd who was using them. This information, though, kind of shoots a hole in the MDC argument that crossbow inclusion will recruit more hunters. According to Jason's presentation, all it does is retain older hunters.
I guess our next big push is to make MDC add a question to the tele-check system asking hunters to identify the weapon they used to take their deer. It would be very interesting to see that data and it would be clear, once and for all, how popular crossbows really are. Right now, nobody knows. MDC, so far, has been very reluctant to add that question for some reason.
Darren
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I would ask for clarification re the
"older hunters" cause I for one just plain don't believe a word of that.... Did they actually run the data to show the ages of those crossbow users ?
ChuckC
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"Kenny, it was a sad state of affairs. There were eight of us that addressed the committee and all were in opposition to the crossbow proposal. There was no one in the room, other than MDC personnel, that identified themselves as for the proposal. Yet our voices carried no weight."
I love most things the MDC does, and they do a great job on most.
The one thing that bothers me is having public input meetings and then doing exactly what they were planning regardless of the input.
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Kenny I worked all night so couldn't attend but, I have sent a number of emails in favor of their proposal. It may only have been 8 guys there but, I spoke up too. I am willing to bet dimes to a dollar that says that question will be part of the telex heck system or it will be a special permit of some kind. The MDC doesn't move without data and discussion.
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We will see, but I'm betting arrow guns will be in archery season in 2016, haven't seen the regs for this year yet.
How easy does it have to get before everyone is happy?
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they have been legal for as long as I remember in Arkansas. Growing up with it, I have never had any issues with it. I don't personally hunt with one, I like my gear the best. I do enjoy that my dad can still hunt with me because he can use his crossbow. he is not able to hunt with other forms r/t his arthritis. they are still pretty limiting, and super loud. we called in a very large buck last year and dad thought he had the right shot, when the old loud cross bow went off, the buck jumped forewards and dad missed the deer. the bolt actually went behind the deer. granted, mr buck was on high alert looking for the two fighting bucks he heard, but still... crossbows are still super slow and close range. no matter what the ads say. I wouldn't trust one of those things past 35 yards.
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but, yall are definitely right... the g&f in most places bends to the will of the money.
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Well, as you probably know, it's a done deal now. The MDC Commission voted yesterday and crossbows will be legal to use in archery season starting in 2016.
There ain't nothing left to do but swallow hard and go on.
Darren
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We can still tell them we don't want it, but you're right , it is a done deal....
Approved changes to fall deer season structure for 2016-2017 include:
Maintain current timing of the November portion and reduce the length from 11 to 9 days.
Expand the late youth portion to three days beginning the first Friday after Thanksgiving.
Reduce the length of the antlerless portion from 12 to 3 days and begin on the first Friday in December.
Eliminate the urban zones portion.
Proposed regulation changes to fall deer season structure for 2016-2017 include:
Allow crossbows as a legal method during the archery deer and turkey seasons.
Allow the use of crossbows during the fall firearms turkey season.
Reduce the limit of antlered deer from 3 to 2 during the combined archery and firearms deer hunting season, with no more than one antlered deer taken during the firearms deer hunting season.
Remove the hunting method exemption requirement related to crossbows.
Already disabled folks can use them in archery, which is great.
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As you can see they are reducing seasons and taking away a buck from archery hunters while at the same time allowing in a weapon that will increase the take. How'sm that gonna work out.
Why do they keep putting out the calls for public comment when they don't listen to what we say?
At least I won't ever have any crossbows on my property.
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And here you are.......
Archery Deer and Turkey: Sept. 15 through Nov. 11, 2016, and Nov. 23, 2016, through Jan. 15, 2017
Firearms Turkey: Oct. 1 through 31, 2016
Firearms Deer Early Youth Portion: Oct. 29 through 30, 2016
Firearms Deer November Portion: Nov. 12 through 22, 2016
Firearms Deer Antlerless Portion: Dec. 2 through 4, 2016
Firearms Deer Alternative Methods Portion: Dec. 24, 2016, through Jan. 3, 2017
Firearms Deer Late Youth Portion: Nov. 25 through 27, 2016
Maintain the current 11-day November portion of the firearm deer season instead of the proposed 9-day season.
Expand the late youth portion to 3 days beginning the first Friday after Thanksgiving.
Reduce the length of the antlerless portion from 12 to 3 days and begin on the first Friday in December.
Eliminate the urban zones portion.
""Include crossbows as a legal method during the archery deer and turkey seasons.""
Allow the use of crossbows during the fall firearms turkey season.
Reduce the bag limit for antlered deer from 3 to 2 during the combined archery and firearms deer hunting seasons, with no more than 1 antlered deer taken during the firearms deer hunting season and only 1 antlered deer taken prior to the November portion of the firearms deer hunting season.
""Remove the hunting method exemption requirement related to crossbows.""
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Total BS- how easy does it have to be?
Lets lower the limit of bucks (no prob for me) and include crossbows.
So what have we done? Added more hunters to the woods?
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Thanks for the update Kenny.....
Sure wish it came out different.
Rodd