Trad Gang
Main Boards => Hunting Legislation & Policies => Topic started by: Ryan Rothhaar on January 12, 2011, 08:38:00 PM
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Concerned bowhunters - please help out. Check out the link below - the 2nd round of Indiana regulation change proposals is out and preliminarily accepted. This includes FULL INCLUSION OF CROSSBOWS IN EARLY ARCHERY SEASON.
In addition to that there is no proposed change in the rut gun season (this is what ELIMINATES the possibility of any reasonable age structure in our herd) and they are adding another NEW late gun season to "reduce the herd". The herd has been reduced enough! I have MAYBE 50% of the deer here that I had 5 years ago. THIS IS ALL ABOUT MONEY!!!
Implementation of these proposals would, in my opinion, be disastrous to what is left of the Indiana deer herd and bowhunting in this state.
You don't have to be a resident of Indiana to reply to the proposals.
Click on the link below and scroll down to the Whitetail deer proposal section - click on the blue link to comment on proposal....help us out, please!
Ryan
http://www.in.gov/nrc/2377.htm
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I did my part Ryan. I really hope these changes do not happen. Nothing good will come from them.
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Having to fight more crossgun crap. We need to get as many people to comment on these rules proposals as we can. It will only take you a couple minutes. Thanks Nate
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Thanks for the link, Ryan. Amazing that they can cave into the gun lobby without a whimper, then expect us to swallow the crossbow pill like they're doing us a favor!
Kevin
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done
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Let me make a comment as to just how serious this is. Less than 4 hours after the anouncment the crossbow industry had a mass email to ALL owners of their crossbow asking them to send comment to the above address. Yea I get the emails but how else do you keep up with what they are doing.
This is the final stand for Indiana, the last deer propsals ahd over 3500 comments 8 to 1 against, we were told if we didn't like th crossbow we had better match those results.
Indiana archers had better get involved.
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I did what I could.
Here in Michigan, proposed legislation is as good as passed as soon as any word of it is mentioned.
Full inclusion of crossbows has already affected public land bowhunting in Michigan. Even some of the fellas who put down their compounds and picked up a crossbow have admitted to me that they have already seen a change.
Archery season has already lost it`s spirit, and now is just another way to kill deer.
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Here is just one example of the marketing ploys you are up against.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOgdRnA6FH0
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There is now a automated cocking crossbow from Parker. It uses a Co2 cartridge. Add this to your evidence that it is not a bow and does not belong in any archery season.
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BTW Next year they will muffle the air noises and make it an automated repeating crossbow.
Remember a few years ago the full inclusion crowd stated crossbow technology had reached it's peak?
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We lost in Nebraska, but our Game and Parks Commission is hopelessly flawed. Hope you guys are more successful in Indiana.
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Sent in my opinion. But it's all about the money.
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Sent in my opinion as well. I am a hunting education instructor and it makes me sick how industry lobbyists want to pervert our traditional heritage. Crossbows are as bad as ATVs. The traditional archery industry provides much more revenue to the people than the few big sporting corperations do. They just want to make money as efficiently as possible. This self cocking crossbow has a $1200 price tag, probably most parts are made overseas and then quickassebled here in the US to get the "Made in USA" seal. If they have $200 in this device, then it is a lot... Great margin a traditional bow builder can only dream about....but the 68 year old "sales rep" wants to get paid as well...
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It is all about the money. The best I have heard is the resident crossbow advocate who stated he has a disabled permit and uses a crossbow, he wants it in all seasons so he is not identified as disabled. He goes on to say it is not any harder to use than a compound. Well if that is true we have no reason for the crossbow to be used , just let em use a compound.......
That Parker crossbow, are they going to reservve those bows for only the disabled? Did not think so!
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Posted my reply and dissatisfaction. These crossbows will be a hard fight to win. But I wonder why they push this crap for archery season instead of pushing them in the firearms seasons. Keep that crap there with the orange army (or maybe they are allowed there too and I'm just not paying attention).
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The reason for the push in archery seasons is because they want to capitalize on the crossover firearms hunter. Please Google "TopShot" from the History channel. The episode you want to view is the Archery one. The first half, the expert marksmen had to learn to shoot a trad bow, not so easy and poor results. The second half was devoted to the crossbow. Bill Troubridge, the owner of Excalibur Crossbows was given title as "crossbow expert". He said the hardest thing about shooting a crossbow was learning how to cock it properly. Well, the expert marksmen took to the crossbow like a duck to water. Every first shot was a bullseye, and they progressed out to 40 yards, again no problem. One even said, "now this more like it, a flatter trajectory, like I'm used to."
Fight it, fight it, fight it.
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As long as your state agency is funded by the number of deer tags it sells they will continue to pass stupid laws . We fought it here for 20-25 years before they finally passed a crossbow law - handicapp only . Thousnads of people suddenly have handicapps . I have no problem with a truly handicapped person using handgrenades in archey season . They will pass crossbows for everyone here within 5 years .
The DNR has reduced the heard to all time lows in here in WV (kill down 30% ) from last year. As you said Ryan it is DEER FOR DOLLARS .
Jack
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I personally don't like compounds being allowed during archery season. Nor do I want out of State folks to be allowed to send comments in "said" regards to MY State DNR, and have their comments counted. :cool:
Indiana DNR has not ONCE posted numbers in reference for the NEED to exercise deer herd reductions. They have NO IDEA what the population of Indiana's deer herd is. PERIOD!!
C'mon, Joe. Didn't you complain about "out of Staters" being allowed to send in comments against the proposals during the first process??
As the President of the Indiana Deer Hunters Association,,didn't you also support the cutting of the firearm seasons in half,,eliminating them entirely out of the rut? All in the desire to reduce the herd?? (even though nobody knows what the population of our herd is)
The IDHA also supported cutting the muzzleloading season in half. Even though the entire harvest for muzzleloaders were 80% antlerless.
HUH?! :confused:
And all this for your only 2 posts on here?? Since 2006?? Really??
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I know I'm going to catch it over this, but it needs to be said. Just a thought for those of you who think no one should ever hunt with anything but traditional equipment.
Weapons like crossbows and compound bows beleive it or not can be beneficial to us. They are often entry weapons that bring more hunters into the woods, and yes can lead to more trad shooters and hunters.
With out entry weapons many new to hunting would spend much less time hunting, not get as addicted to the outdoors, and our numbers will continue to decrease.
Consider youth hunters who are not yet able to shoot trad gear heavy enough to take game... why should they sit on the side lines. Yes I agree that it is an earned right, but if they are mature enough to hunt why make the wait and run the risk of them gravitating further away from our hunting traditions.
As far as crossbows impacting the overall numbers, the imapact is probably not what you think. OK legalized crossbows this year and I'm waiting to see the harvest reports to see what the actual impact is, but having heard from others in other states, it will not be much.
Keep in mind the crossbow is still a close range weapon and nothing like using a rifle.
So if you are so strongly against other methods of hunting besides your chosen method, how do you propose increasing our numbers as hunters to ensure we can protect our rights in the future?
I'm falling in love with trad gear, but it is truly a mature hunter's game IMO.
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Great post, BC....
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It is the "big tent" theory descibed above that upsets me most. Regardless of the state of choice for crossbow inclusion, it is always pushed towards the archery season, never the firearms season and never for their own season. By not wanting crossbows in archery season, I am not an anti-hunter, an elitist, selfish, or against new hunters being introduced into the woods. What I am totally against is the inclusion of a superior implement that has a close to zero learning/mastering curve, that is more likened to a firearm than to a bow, and one that has no history in establishing a season of their own, rather ride the coattails of hard fought archery seasons. If you want new or more hunters in the woods, take them hunting with you, take them to the range, take them to a hunters ed. safety class, let them shoot the deer and not you, expose them to the early small game seasons, where game is usually more plentiful so as not to discouarge them, and give back by teaching or mentoring.
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Kinda like we did when compounds were first introduced?? Kinda like that?? :confused:
Good post, Al....and not picking on ya...nor would I ever. Just sayin.... :cool:
They sky ain't fallin'......except for "special interest" groups. :cool:
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Yep, Jack - I remember some of the fight in WVa in the good old days - they always had the "crossbow throw" at the WVa Bowhunter's Rendezvous - maybe early/mid 1980's? Give them a buck and see how far you could throw the crossbow. They'd duct tape the piece of junk together and throw it all weekend. The guy that could toss it the farthest got some of the cash from the pot and the rest went to the crossbow fight. Good times watching some of the big ol' boys out of the hills chuck the crossbow!
I remember well what happened to the quality of the bowhunting season in Ohio when the manufacturers bought and paid for full inclusion in the early '80's. The cooked-book numbers the ODNR puts out notwithstanding that ruined the bow season in Ohio.
Would it destroy Indiana's bow season in the same way, now, 25-30 years later? I don't want to experiment and find out.
As far as out of staters voicing opinions against the proposed rule change...the crossbow manufacturers are sending out blanket emails across the country to elicit support.....soooo, when in Rome.... :rolleyes:
Thanks for the support, guys.
Ryan
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Weed:
I post on as many forums as possible, to get public comment. And if they are going to allow non residents to influence then I'll work with those rules also.
I learned a valuable lesson with round one....
As said abvove..... "When in Rome........"
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I just re read my original post in his thread....... for the life of me I can't find where I encouraged non residents to comment. Trapperdave and Weed, read the last sentence.
"Let me make a comment as to just how serious this is. Less than 4 hours after the anouncment the crossbow industry had a mass email to ALL owners of their crossbow asking them to send comment to the above address. Yea I get the emails but how else do you keep up with what they are doing.
This is the final stand for Indiana, the last deer propsals ahd over 3500 comments 8 to 1 against, we were told if we didn't like th crossbow we had better match those results.
Indiana archers had better get involved."
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Never specifically accused you of that, Joe.
I'm so sick of this inhouse fighting that I really no longer care.
Thanks.....
And who is Trapperdave?? Just another assumption??
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Ryan has it right. Don't need to experiment with this in Indiana. Catering to this laziness is not good for bowhunting.
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Took me several tries to log in, but I did finally get to submit my comments.
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I put in my .02 worth...
I too experienced the influx of crossbows in Ohio when I lived there in the late 80's early 90's... wasn't pretty...
Jonathan
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TrapperDave did it again Weed, had to copy and paste edit and make up what he needed. He lurks here so just commenting to him also......
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Said my piece and then some....................
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Am I also reading the proposed changes to mean that we can no longer use archery tackle during firearm and muzzleloader seasons?
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The new proposal has the archery season starting Oct. 1 and running until the first Sunday in Jan. with no 5 day break after the firearms season.
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Gotcha. If our state was truly interested in managing the antlerless population "problem" as they define it (with no statistical evidence to support their assertion), they could do the following:
- lengthen the early archery season statewide by starting it Sept 15th
- institute a doe before buck harvest rule and promote donation of the wild game meat to an org like Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry
- if establishing more use for capable hunters to use the crossbow is a priority they could lengthen the late season to extend through the end of February
Putting crossbows in archery season isn't going to bring more total hunters into the Indiana woods, it'll just bring more gun only hunters into early archery season.
In my opinion it's a slippery slope. If harvest numbers exceed expectations we could quickly see our archery season shortened.
Just out of curiosity, and I'm not pointing fingers, what are organizations like the PBS and Comptons doing at the state level to help lobby in opposition of these proposals. They're being increasingly adopted at the state level and I've yet to read a success story from any of our bowhunting organizations.
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They know my opinion now.
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Got mine a while ago....
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Thanks guys, we need all archers help on this. when you go to an archery shoot this spring take along some information so folks who don't read these sites can comment.
Indiana needs all the help we caqn get!
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Anyone who thinks a crossbow is not a long-range weapon needs to see this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gly3bafUhcU
Comments submitted.
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From what I have seen in Michigan, there is no worry of shortening hunting seasons because of over harvest of deer. The DNR does not care about overharvest.
The more dead deer the better, as far as they are concerned. The LOWER our deer population gets, the more tags they allocate for individual deer management units.
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http://www.in.gov/nrc/2377.htm
They are still taking comments folks.
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Left a comment. I hate that Ohio allows crossbows during archery season. I'm not against the use of a crossbow to hunt with, but I am against the use of it during archery season.
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Well guys, I'm sorry to say, it really doesn't matter how hard you fight it, it is going to happen. We in PA fought it as hard as we could but it was hopeless. Money talks and the crossbow manufacturers had the money. We had our Game Commission about to reverse their decision to allow crossbows but the legislators told them that either they (the PGC) pass full inclusion state wide or the legislation would pass a ruling to change the definition of a bow to include crossbows. This would have effectively taken any regulation of crossbows out of the hands of the game commission. It would have made crossbows legal at any time bows are legal. The PGC had no choice.
And as far as having people from other states weighing in on this issue by pressuring your legislators... that's nothing! In this state we had the NRA and Ted Nugent lobbying our legislators as well as people form other countries. That's right, the crossbow folks asked crossbow owners on their websites from all over the world to contact our legislators and pressure them to pass full inclusion.
I wish you all the best of luck, but from what I've seen in the way this group works, it's a done deal.
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Added my thoughts as well.
I wouldn't have known about this if I hadn't gotten a e-mail from someone where I enter a drawing to hunt at every year.
I don't come to this forum as much as I should but I came tonight to see if I could get more info. Can we get this word out to more of us, say on pow-wow without getting in trouble?
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Also, it may be a "done deal" but it's not like me to roll over and play dead. I'm goin' down swing'n!
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Meetings are going to be held to discuss the proposal. 6pm (EDT)
Monday July 25th at:
Spring Mill Inn, Spring Mill State Park
3333 St. Rd. 60 East
Mitchell, IN 47446
Tuesday July 26th at:
Community Building
Maimi Co. Fairgrounds
1029 W. 200 N.
Peru, IN 46970
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Keep up the fight. They keep trying to get it into the archery season and were very close here in NY last year. Ended up in the gun season and late muzzleloader season, with a 2 year sunset clause. Snuck it in the last hour of the last session in a commitee that rarely sees that type of stuff, but typical NY politics. Closest in years, I am sure it will be a big battle again next year.
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I'm not threatened by crossbow hunters. My point of view is we need more hunters of all stripes not less. The demographics of sport hunting are NOT in our favor people.... You can argue methods and seasons until you are blue in the face. But you can't argue with the FACT that the numbers of hunters in the field is plumetting as a percentage of the population. So in my opinion we need MORE hunters regardless of their chosen method.
I know in KY we could benefit from an expanded crossbow season especially if they made it an antlerless only season. Our herd is badly out of balance with a 10-1 doe to buck ratio that desperately needs to be brougt down to a more manageable 5 or 6 to 1 and better yet 3-1. The quantity of deer would suffer from this in the short term but the QUALITY of the deer would improve as would the overall health of the herd.
We need to get over the parochial view that only this manner of hunting is acceptable and also realize that game management is not a zero sum gain. Short term, year-to-year fluctuations in populations based on game management decisions, legal methods, and season length are all part of the ebb and flow of ANY hunting program--ducks, deer, bears, elk etc... Did you ever stop to think that crossbow hunting could actually make your sport better? Perhaps it draws more people into archery? I know from personal experience that my journey into other hunting and shooting activities were always as a result of having done something similar. I went from modern guns to flintlocks. I went from trad archery, to wheel bows, and back to trad archery.
Bottom line is we need more hunters. I could give a crap if the guy doesn't have the time or inclination to pull a stickbow. We need more hunters. While you may not think they are "the right kind of hunters" I say this is a free country and you should mind your own dadgummed business! Because they can turn your argument against crossbows against YOU and make the case that you are shooting less accurate equipment that results in a less humane kill and more wounded animals! There are two sides to every coin so before you think you own the high ground you better look at the surrounding terrain!
Anti-hunters LOVE it when we get in these inane domestic quarrels. It makes their mission so much easier. Not only does the cliche of a house divided apply but many of the arguments we use against our fellow sportsmen are turned against us!
So again, we need more hunters not less. Few people just jump into the sport of traditional archery. Like wine its mostly an acquired taste and there are a lot of people who don't like wine!
Just my .02 and I'm sure some will disagree.
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I'm not against crossbows per say I just don't think they belong in bow season.
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The thing mowt people miss in this discussion is that we are not gaining more hunters by allowing crossbows. We are just having crossover hunters from the rifle ranks that think the bowhunters kill all the big bucks before gun season, and they are the same ones not willing to put in the time to learn to bowhunt, but they want in our season. Anything with a stock,trigger, scope and a bolt instead of an arrow is not a bow and doesn't belong in BOW season. Use it all you want in the proper season.
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Perhaps they should have a special early crossbow season in August?
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KY Jeff. . . I happen to disagree. we don't need more hunters. got too many already, and the hunter of today, for quite the most part, is not what I personally look up to and feel proud of.
The vast majority are not at all like me. They all want it easy, they want it now, they want it to make them famous and they don't think that earning something is for them.
Nope. . I can do with losing about half.
ChuckC
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Chuck,
If you take that attitude you are done. Sport hunting will be outlawed. We will have half the political support we have now and we will loose every political battle we must fight.
I get what you are saying. But its not the crowd I hang with. I am a member of a couple of three hunting clubs with maybe 25 people in my duck club, 7 people in my deer lease and 45 families in my foxhunting club and I have to say that sportsmanship is excellent in all three cases. Sure we have a bad apple or two. You deal with people you are gonna get that.
But if you look at the demographics of the hunting population and society's view of hunters in general and we have a very hard road ahead of us as it is....
Its up to us all to make our sport better.
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we LOST last year here in NC.....cannot understand how a crossgun ever got into archery season....money talks and crap walks, at least it did in this state....replied and spoke my feelings for you......fight it HARD.....
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Sport hunting will never be outlawed, there's too much money to be made.
Thank you T Lail!
Bona
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The local archery club guys did not even know about those proposals, until I told them yesterday at their shoot. People are completely unaware what happens around them. Pretty sad.
If that stupid crossbow law goes into effect, I will probably give back my "hunting education instructor" card. I will not teach people about lousy "wannabe" archery equipment. I will hunt more down south (TN in particular), where the DNR does a decent job. I will spend my license dollars somewhere else. All the additional "license" sales numbers will be without me. I have already seen a few of the potential crossbow hunters in our local sporting goods store. I don't plan to share the field with them in early archery season.
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I sent my opinon, as I did the first time this came about. I stay on top of this with another site from IN.
With Ohio having "successfully" using crossbows for some 30 years it was only a matter of time before this raised it's head here.
I'm only guessing, but dont think THAT many will jump onto that bandwagon with the liberal gun laws and tags here.
Of course there will be SOME but feel most who bowhunt will stick to bows regardless of their preference of type.
I agree it IS a great deal about MONEY. With the state wanting more deer shot (that isnt going to go away) they have found a way to supposedly get more hunters in the field and....AND create yet another license to sell for more money from the increase of total sales of tags.
The state has offered several variations of season lengths with what they say is TO shoot more deer. That met defeat due to the fact that it effected the 80 percent or so of the total hunters whom gun hunt raising their voice that they would QUIT and not buy ANY tags for such a short season. (how a short season was going to produce more deer shot.....none of us understood). That would hit the state's pocketbook way too hard and the idea was tossed.
Additional doe seasons and the crossbow addition is a change a great many of us wont like but when it comes to more tags sold......they could care less what we think IMHO.
What we "want" and what "they" think is "best" for the herd will never be on the same page...or universe when they insist we have too many deer and hunters do not agree.
While it is good they ASK our opinion, history has shown us for decades and decades that the final decision will not be TOTALLY made from the opinion of hunters UNLESS the state is convinced they are going to LOSE hunters whom buy tags. That was exactly the case in the proposed shortened gun season....the majority spoke loud and clear. With the bulk of the deer numbers taken by gun hunters, their voice is much louder than ours. Just a sad fact.
We are therefore our own worse enemies because most of us are GOING TO hunt, regardless, just as we have in the past and do not have the resources to go elsewhere.
Numbers of tags and the cost of such, plus when they are used meets a huge conflict amoungst all of us. Invariably, it wont be US that decides but again, I'm glad to have at least a voice.
With the numbers of hunters growing and the places TO hunt without a fee dwindling, the future is bleak IMHO for generations to come.
There are simply too many people and only so much land.
In time that will eat up many present day activities as the US population grows.
My MAIN dislike of a crossbow season IS the fact that (even though I dont feel it will be a huge percentage) it will indeed, increase the number of hunters afield that is out of hand already in my locality.
just my 2 cents.
God Bless
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I have seen a heard of alot of hostility between hunters over "protecting" hunting ground from other hunters intruding. Stands stolen, trespassing...and we need more of that?! That's what we will have from people who don't have the inclination to shoot a bow but since a xbow is more like a gun..... This is what my peaceful bow season is going to turn into.
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The scuttlebutt passed on to me is that the "decision" will be made towards the end of September.
As I understand it the regs will not be effect till 2012, unless I missed something?
God Bless
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Long Speech here. . . run. .
I have been doing this for a long time, I have seen a lot of changes. I have also thought long and hard about this numbers game.
You know what. I think we are pretty much fooling ourselves.
If they stop hunting, inside of two years nobody will have bushes or a garden and there will be no understory in most of the forests. Then the crops will be further damaged and there will be many more deer / car accidents. Then, big business will step in and demand hunting to thin the herd. Big business runs the world, not us peons.
Too many deer ?. . make the season longer, relax some of the stupid rules. There are other ways that have never been tried.
I think there are too many hunters out there now and about half of them are not the folks I would want to share a camp with. I am about this close to being disgusted by the "normal" hunter activities lately and I think others are too.
Quite a number of them have come in to the field because of videos and magazines, they have become instant hunters. They have no clue, but they are holding out for a Booner.
I think numbers are important to a point. . but if those numbers don't vote, if they don't voice out to the proper authorities when they need to, if they don't become active to help each other and the sport, what good are they ?
We have a spring hearing in WI each year. It is a way to bring up new rules, or old rules, to provide public input on things that affect us. It is important.
I can tell you this. . W A Y more don't show up than do. It is one night of the year. . . and they made it easy now. It used to be we would be up till after midnight, voting and voicing out. Now you can show up, stay for an hour to vote for new counsel, then turn in a completed ballot and leave to go out with the buds. They still don't show.
My point of view. . go away, there are too many in the woods now.
Why do they need a crossbow ? Cause it is cool, and cause someone (industry)conned them into "needing it" and mostly. . because it is easy (we already have rules allowing use by older or disabled folks, as does probably every other state). Nope. . it is easy, and that is where it is at.
It is a gun. It gets the gun hunters into the woods to get "their" buck before the dang bowhunters kill them all off. It also allows them to do it just like when they gun hunt. . sight it in, shoot three bullets a year to make sure it is still sighted in, then go out and get them deer.
Nope. . I totally disagree that we need more numbers.
I do believe we need to straighten out our act.
ChuckC
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Well said ChuckC...my sentiments exactly.
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There's stuff flying around on AT that this passed for the 2012 season in Indiana??? full inclusion???? say it ain't so!!!!
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That's what I heard too. Chuck said it well. It's all about $$$. I thought maybe the compound bow makers would be upset by this, then I realized they make the crossbows too! So it is a win, win for them. More $$$! That's what it's ALL about!
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b.glass....couldn't have said it better myself....the $$$ does indeed reign supreme!!!
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As far as I know, the proposal was adopted in favor of the crossgun. :banghead: The final decision will be obviously made in January and then there is another "public comment" period after that before final adoption.
The DNR commission guys really think they will sell more licenses. No one can back that statement up. And I predict this will not happen.
But I have mostly lost interest in hunting close to home anyways. So I will not buy any licenses for 2012 if crossguns can hunt.
If every archery hunter would react like that, the crossgun would be out in a hardbeat.
But most "compound" guys don't care, because they already are on the techie hook anyways. Only a widespread boycott in buying archery licenses of any kind will get these people to listen.May the deer wildly multiply and the thousands of crossgun guys can take care of them.... :biglaugh:
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It may be the DNR commission thinking this is the thing to sell more licenses but I think it is just as much the crossbow manufacturers and the people that sell them that are pushing for this. They have the kind of money it takes to get results.