Post by: 12ringman on December 10, 2009, 02:52:00 PM
Fellow Oklahomans there is a meeting in OKC tomorrow night. I urge everyone in the OKC area to voice their opinions. Here is the address.
December 11, 2009, 7 p.m. Oklahoma City – Oklahoma Department of Wildlife Conservation Auditorium, 1801 N. Lincoln Blvd.
Post by: Lost Arra on December 10, 2009, 03:06:00 PM
Non-archery folks don't understand the differences or consider these differences important and non-archery folks are going to decide this.
Post by: 12ringman on December 10, 2009, 03:13:00 PM
Post by: ISP 5353 on December 10, 2009, 03:19:00 PM
Post by: dragonheart on December 10, 2009, 03:37:00 PM
I cannot make a valid argument against crossbows in the general season. Bowhunting is about choice to make taking the animal more difficult and drawing the bow on an animal. It is suppossed to be difficult to take animals with a bow.
Crossbows just do not fit that. It goes against the historical tradition, spirit, and philosophy of bowhuting roots and the argument for the archery only seasons when they were created.
Just my two cents, fight the good fight. You might have already lost.
Post by: Buckeye Trad Hunter on December 10, 2009, 03:42:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by 12ringman:This statement in itself should tell you that it's already done. I hate to say it but it's little more than a money game for the states and they see the chance to create a larger market.
"Legalize crossbows for archery season? We do not have any biological concerns; would be additional opportunity for people who do not want to use conventional equipment".
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Here in Ohio crossbows are and have been legal in archery season for a number of years. The reality is the crossbow is not to blame for the bad that comes along with them, it's the idiots behind them that don't understand what they are actually shooting. It's not the crossbows fault that the people behind it make unethical decisions.
I actually support making crossbows legal for people that want to hunt during archery season but are physicaly unable, of course that's something different all together. But, my feelings on this are influenced because my father is such a person. He has degerative arthritus in his neck and shoulders and is not able to pull a bow back. If crossbows were illegal then he wouldn't be able to enjoy archery season because of something that he has no control over.
Post by: Tom on December 10, 2009, 03:44:00 PM
Have no problem with them in gun season but NOT in archery season. Sorry for the rant-still pi**ed off about it.
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on December 10, 2009, 03:46:00 PM
The idea that a hugely heavy compuond bow set sideways on a rifle stock, and then be allowed to mount a scope is archery hunting is like telling me that a modern muzzleloader is like shooting a flintlock. Crossbows do not belong in archery seasons! With the disabled exception of course.
Post by: RM81 on December 10, 2009, 03:54:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ragnarok Forge:+1
The idea that a hugely heavy compuond bow set sideways on a rifle stock, and then be allowed to mount a scope is archery hunting is like telling me that a modern muzzleloader is like shooting a flintlock. Crossbows do not belong in archery seasons! With the disabled exception of course.
Post by: 12ringman on December 10, 2009, 04:06:00 PM
Post by: shakeyslim on December 10, 2009, 04:11:00 PM
all these things have long been decided before we are ask about them. :mad: :mad: :mad:
Post by: razorsharptokill on December 10, 2009, 04:36:00 PM
Post by: 12ringman on December 10, 2009, 04:50:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by razorsharptokill:Your not lying there brother. I worked for BPS and sold crossbows to people 8-80. One guy could bench press 675# but had the "doctors note" :readit:
They should just allow them during rifle season. I'd hunt with a spear before a crossbow. Of course I'm not disabled. Iff that was the only way I could hunt I guess I'd do it to. I've seen a lot of guys that have a "Dr's note" wink wink.
This just got moved I hope some of my fellow OK archers see it here.
Robert
Post by: Northern Whisper on December 10, 2009, 04:59:00 PM
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 10, 2009, 05:34:00 PM
Its the same thing with high fence operations; and shooting tame elk in enclosures.
You have the money- you should be able to do what you want.
Its also like ATVs going where ever they want; if they have the money- they should be able to go where they want.
I was the last guy picked for football; baseball; basketball; you name it. I broke records swimming- but hand eye co-ordination stuff? Nope- I am out.
So getting good with a bow has been the result of a ton of effort.
Look at all the threads about arrows not flying right; and which this is the best; and which that is the best; and there are a lot of us that struggle to get good with a traditional bow.
This situation we are in started with cash flow. Fred Bear was behind the two season concept; but he sold his business and became legally bound to support compound bows; which he said nothing nice about. He hated the &$%$(#) things - he told me so.
But the door was opened to avoid the practice; and now... the door is wide open for those that want proficiency testing and the reasoning that crossbows are easy to master.
Playing the three monkeys is not in my opinion the way to go. It has not worked thus far at all.
It is easier to just sit back and let things happen... but please- lets think about the ramifications of this and fight against it.
While staying a constant existence as traditional bowhunters is big; keeping our mouths closed: is not helping us.
Post by: Wolfie2nd on December 11, 2009, 08:38:00 AM
We did lost of fighting to keep the Xbows illegal an it got us no where.. So good luck with your state..
Post by: Tsalagi on December 11, 2009, 08:06:00 PM
What we have is what I call "season creep". When seasons for muzzleloaders, for example, were established, they were thinking of flintlocks and replica Hawkens and such. Well, learning to shoot those takes practice and, honestly, many Americans are just too dadgum lazy to put in that kind of effort. So, someone with an eye to cashing in--Cha-CHING!---thought up inline muzzeloaders that are basically modern firearms loaded from the front. There! No muss, no fuss, Pyrodex pellets, shotgun primers, and saboted copper-jacketed bullets! And they allow them into the muzzleloader season.
The crossbows they will allow into crossbow seasons are as unrecognizeable even to Medieval crossbows as a Lexus is to a horse-drawn carriage. Scopes, adjustable triggers, the works. This is not archery; this is modern technology masquerading as archery.
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 12, 2009, 12:19:00 AM
I see it the same way.
Its a wagon full of people trying to do it the hard way but the easiest way possible.
I believe it is a fad. I think the thrill will wear off.
I am not sure I will live long enough to see it; but eventually people will tire; and switch to something else.
But I wonder; what will that be?
I just hope it doesn't involve fat women in spandex...
Post by: huntindad on December 12, 2009, 08:28:00 AM
Post by: Tsalagi on December 12, 2009, 03:43:00 PM
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 12, 2009, 07:00:00 PM
Post by: Stringwacker on December 14, 2009, 06:42:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Tsalagi:Nice post and 'spot on' on the season creep. I tend to call it 'the progression theory' but I like your term better. There is so much rationalization based on 'this should be legal, because what I want_______ (illegal) is so much like _____ (legal). Using such rationalizations I could build an argument from slingshots to nuclear weapons because each concession creates new attributes that can be used to lead to something else. It never stops.
Dare I say? I dare. There are a lot of people that think as long as it's "hunting" we have to support it or the evil anti-hunters will win. I tend to think this line of thought is advanced by sporting goods manufacturers who want to sell equipment. Too many advocacy groups are taking money from big manufacturers. And, so, they will come out in support of crossbows. They'd come out in support of RPG-7s, if they were legal to own. And you'd see people, also, saying, "Well, what's the difference between a 20mm Vulcan and a regular rifle?! They're both firearms!"---and lobby for heavy small arms into firearms season, if they thought they could do it and Vulcans were over-the-counter and available. There's guys I heard of using .50BMG sniper rifles and shooting elk further away than anyone with a scoped .300WinMag could hope to hit.
What we have is what I call "season creep". When seasons for muzzleloaders, for example, were established, they were thinking of flintlocks and replica Hawkens and such. Well, learning to shoot those takes practice and, honestly, many Americans are just too dadgum lazy to put in that kind of effort. So, someone with an eye to cashing in--Cha-CHING!---thought up inline muzzeloaders that are basically modern firearms loaded from the front. There! No muss, no fuss, Pyrodex pellets, shotgun primers, and saboted copper-jacketed bullets! And they allow them into the muzzleloader season.
The crossbows they will allow into crossbow seasons are as unrecognizeable even to Medieval crossbows as a Lexus is to a horse-drawn carriage. Scopes, adjustable triggers, the works. This is not archery; this is modern technology masquerading as archery.
The comments about muzzleloader innovation was extremely good. Mississippi & Lousiana now allow centerfire single shot rifles in the "primitive" weapon season. This was also brought about by 'season creep'. There's abig push this year to eliminate the season structure entirely as no one remembers why we have it. It is no longer distinct. The changes added about 10,000 participates in 'primitive' weapon season...yet the season will end this year. So much with all that safety in numbers stuff that crossbow advocates often say.
I've said for years that all special seasons are in trouble because we have an expanding deer herd and a contracting hunter base...the opposite of what special seasons were created for.
As far as the Oklahoma crossbow issue, never give up the fight. We have fought the issue for years in Mississippi and have been 'so far' successful. I'm sure we will face the issue again in January when the legislature goes into session. Season creep is your best argument. It gives your bowhunter base a clear reason to understand why crossbows should be opposed for general archery use. The issue isn't about crossbows...it's really about archery season survival and the crossbow is just a cog on the wheel in the process of weapon blending and change.
Post by: 12ringman on December 14, 2009, 09:37:00 AM
Post by: Tsalagi on December 14, 2009, 09:19:00 PM
I tend to think that seasons need precise definitions of what is and is not a proper weapon. Once the camel's nose is under the tent, it takes less than a year for sporting goods manufacturers to then shove an entire herd of camels into the tent.
Let's say an atlatl season was established. It would take less than a year for some manufacturer to come up with a compound atlatl or something else. Or a shoulder-mounted ballista, saying, hey, it "throws a spear", right? Same principle, right? More than likely, they'd tweak a fishing speargun and say, "Look, it's technically an atlatl!" And game and fish departments would just shrug and say ok.
People say, well, what's the dif? Why can't a crossbow be in archery season? Ok, well, why don't they allow performance-enhancing drug use in the Olympics? Because it's giving an advantage the people following the totality of the rules---what's on paper as well as the spirit of it---don't have. And once you do that, then it becomes known that "anything to win" is permissible. The next thing after the drugs would be, in the future, bionic implants and people genetically engineered as athletes. Then what's the point of the game at all? We don't see the "best man or woman winning", we see the best research and dvelopment departments winning.
That's what's happening to hunting. Rather than the totality of the experience being the reward, it's now a competition to see what weapon you can get away with using and nailing the biggest buck as fast as possible with zero effort and zero skill. To do what? Make it back into town to gloat? I'm old-fashioned. I think having bragging rights are when you put in the sweat equity and accomplished something using your own mind and body and skills, without cheating or shortcutting. But that isn't what's promoted. What's promoted is bagging the biggest buck in the woods by any means possible. I bet some guys would call in helicopter gunships if they could, since they could program the chin turret to leave the rack untouched.
Post by: Stringwacker on December 15, 2009, 06:39:00 AM
Far better are arguments based on facts rather than emotion. In my part of the world, states that have adopted crossbow legalization have seen a decline...not increase in archery participation. In most cases...from the first year the crossbow was legalized! Clearly the crossbow is not living up to it's claims of more archery particpation...so what else might be suspect in the crossbow propaganda?
I think there is a huge social issue going on where people are realizing it's not an issue of loosing their opporunity to hunt with a bow (officials are quick to point out that you still can hunt your way... even if Johnny hunts 'his' way) but rather a loss of the hunting environment or feel for what the season is or should be that affects an individual happiness.
At the end of the day only happy hunters buy hunting licenses. It's time for the DNR's and legislatures to realize that hunters are their customers...not their servants. As valued customers, DNR's should be listening to what hunters (bowhunters in this instance) says.
Post by: huntindad on December 15, 2009, 09:42:00 AM
Post by: Tsalagi on December 15, 2009, 11:58:00 AM
Post by: Brian Krebs on December 17, 2009, 05:02:00 AM
I keep hearing the argument that we all need to stick together- but I do not subscribe to the 'Lemming thinking'.
In California the residents voted on whether or not there should be a mountain lion season; and the people in areas not effected by lions- like cities- voted against hunting them; while the people in the rest of the state ( suburbia and beyond) voted for hunting lions.
The result was that people unaffected by lion problems controlled the vote. The people with lion problems lost.
And now more lions are killed by the state; as problem lions- than were killed by hunters when there was a season.
Fish and wildlife departments were formed and supported by hunters. Hunters created the departments and supported them; not to outlaw hunting; but to make hunting possible.
They tend to forget that.
I remember the first attempt to get crossbows in archery season in Michigan; and how there was a dramatic objection. But that was before the compound became the path of most bowhunters.
It was hard back then to make the leap in logic from hunting with a trad bow; to using a crossbow in bow season.
But- once compounds reigned - the ideology and of the bowhunter became theirs - not ours.
So- when fish and game departments make decisions about bow season rules; they look at the masses; and the masses are people that do not hunt with a traditional bow; and do not understand what it means: to hunt with a traditional bow.
So our voice just does not count.
I think it is almost a blessing that the guy made the electric crossbow. Its a prototype really; you know people will make them quieter and work the bugs out; and get an automatic crossbow on the market.
And many will argue that its OK; as they will be OK for people that are disabled to use. They improve the chances of loss of game because you can follow up with another shot quickly.
I have seen people with no legs shoot traditional bows. I have seen a girl with no arms shoot a traditional bow. I shot a deer when I had a broken shoulder - by taping a longbow to my foot; and drawing back with my good arm.
When I broke my wrist - I put a sling around my arm above the elbow; and a strap from that to a release- and drew back the bow with my arm and shot just fine.
Yes - there are people that cannot shoot a longbow or recurve- but I think that is only because they have not learned a way to do it.
I have often heard people say they want to hunt with a bow - but don't have time to practice; so they are getting a 'doctors OK' to shoot a crossbow.
Here in Idaho; there are thousands of left over non resident tags - because of the wolves; and tag costs. Extending seasons with a use of a bow - is a viable option....except that it takes practice to get good enough. So- more people are trying to take shortcuts. Crossbows are the perfect shortcut.
But it is a shortcut that takes people down the wrong path.
And yet; as their numbers grow... their voice counts more.
And yes- we become more and more: vassals.
Covering our ears; our eyes and our mouths- is not going to help us.
Post by: mwmwmb on December 17, 2009, 11:15:00 PM
I would like to remind folks that we game biologists have to manage the game. there are many means to that end. in many areas game species populations are growing and hunter numbers are in decline, meanwhile development expands into habitat. Deer (or other game) become a nusiance to these new SUBARBAN folks.
I will use Arkansas as an example: we have have a bow season from Oct 1- feb 28. 1% of deer harvests come from Jan-feb. they have lengthened rifle seasons and game populations are growing. Again there are many options for management. my personal suggestion would be requiring the harvest of a doe before a buck. however many of the good ole boys cant imagine such a thing. but the bottom line in our state is state biologist are confined by governor appointed commisionors (i.e. good ole boys).
We (as trad bow hunters) chose this style of hunting for the challenge. this is a choice and i personally value the freedom to choose that. We are out numbered and i would hate to think that other hunters would be lobbying against my right to choose to hunt with my chosen form of hunting.
Post by: huntindad on December 18, 2009, 09:30:00 AM
Post by: Mike Spaulding on December 18, 2009, 10:10:00 AM
Post by: J-dog on January 08, 2010, 07:48:00 AM
Stinks -
J