Post by: wapiti on December 31, 2006, 02:52:00 PM
"It is the opinion of many that it is ok to use electronice devices, range finders, soda straws for arrows etc etc etc. I agree they can be useful. I think we need to draw the line and here is one way to think about it. Food dosen't make you fat. Eating everything in sight will! Eating a little chocolate dosn't hurt either but eat enough of it and most will have have health problems! Look at bowhunting the same way. If you use enough of these devices and begin to lean on them to to replace the skills required to get within close range and make a good shot, track and recover that animal then bowhunting is going to suffer the same fate as ones health on a poor diet. Lets put the activity of bowhunting back up
where it belongs. If you like a challenge but just don't want to learn to get up close and personal with the animal there are ways to kill the animal woithout eroding bowhunting. One would be to use a primative muzzlleloader during the general rifle "
Post by: Old Ways on January 09, 2007, 09:55:00 AM
I just read your post and thought it was interesting. Just the other day I stopped by a local archery shop. It use to be small with just the basics. Now it was huge. Filled with all this high tech stuff. Guys where in there spending a fortune on all that $#!+. What the heck is happening to hunting? All these magazines and shows that suppport using that stuff are producing a bunch of consumers not hunters. Funny thing is man had successfully hunted game for 1000s of years with just the basic bow and arrow and did just fine. Now you have these sissy wannabe hunters that rely on gadgets not skill. Just makes me shake my head and sigh.
Post by: JStark on January 09, 2007, 06:33:00 PM
If it would make me a decent living, pay for my house and get my kids through school without my wife working, then I'd jump right into selling all trad. gear.
But, seeing as I live in California, I don't see that happening any time soon. Anybody here pay a grand per month to live in a trailerhouse? I have.
It must stink to be the middle man. Consumers running over you to buy the latest piece of plastic crap from China, and dealers shoving it down your throat...
Post by: ratgunner on January 20, 2007, 05:54:00 PM
Post by: Al Dente on January 21, 2007, 10:17:00 AM
Hunting should not be easy, that's why it's called hunting and not shopping.
With all of these innovations, you are taking YOU out of the whole loop and learning process. The hunter becomes a slave to his/her equipment, and relying on it solely to do the task of killing an animal as quickly and ethically as possible. When that doesn't happen, they don't blame themselves, they blame their equipment. The more compicated tackle becomes the more prone it is to failure.
What if your range finder is out of whack and the distance isn't true and you wound the animal becuase you're not as adept as you should be in judging yardage? What happens then?
We've all seen the shows and videos where the "hunter" or should I say sniper shoots a ram from 2 mountains away, and the guide congratulates him on making a great shot. Great shot, maybe, lucky shot, hell yes. Hunting should be an uo close and personal experience, not a target shoot. There's plenty of competitions for that all across the country.
There must come a time when it is said that it's too much and it needs to stop. Compound bows are nocking on the door to 99% let-off, then what?
Everyone was up in arms at the Texas outfitter that had the computer hunting package on his ranch. You paid a fee to "hunt" an animal from your computer. You guided the scope and pulled the trigger via you computer, wherever the hell you were. That's hunting, I think not, but it's technology isn't it? If you disagree with that but want to keep pushing the envelope on other avneues, then you're a hypocrite in my opinion.
I hunt with a stick and string to get away from the bells and whistles that scream at you from the shelves and catalogs. K-I-S-S!!!!
While it is a free marketplace, these manufacturers are turning a blind eye to the much bigger problem on hand. You're taking the sportsmanship out of the sport. There will be no more challenge and then there will be backlash from the public arena towards ALL hunters.
Post by: vermonster13 on January 21, 2007, 01:36:00 PM
Post by: Sawtooth on January 21, 2007, 01:38:00 PM
What I've seen with younger bowhunters just coming up is that the high tech archery equipment "looks cool" and a lot of young people think in terms of "high tech" (read...fast, visually appealing, instant gratification, etc). They aren't really thinking about the value of woodsmanship and building a body of knowledge about the outdoors that will make them a better hunter. I see this firsthand, quite often.
Post by: Old Ways on January 21, 2007, 05:49:00 PM
A simple stick bow and wood arrows can be made with near zero environmental impact and can serve it's owner/maker well. A high tech compound has it's riser cast in a foundry, machined by coal powered electricity, uses plastic parts, requires another plant to produce it's scope, release, dampers, aluminum or carbon arrows, plastic vanes, plastic quiver, etc. has much more damaging impact on nature to do the same job.
If we don't take a stand to be part of the solution then we are part of the problem. Each year, each day the planet get's a little sicker. Every purchase we make, every decision we make can either have a negative, nuetral or positive effect on the environment.
We have been conditioned by school, the media, peers, etc. to think newer is better, more is better, and so forth. But if we don't change our thinking and habit's the truth is that the planet will continue to suffer. Ecosystems will die off. Eventually there wont be any game to hunt anyway.
I try not to be hypocritical in saying this. I try to practice what I preach. I will not buy or eat "fast food" because those places damage the environment on many levels. I don't buy anything disposable. I think landfills are wrong and we shouldn't have stuff that needs to be thrown away. I recycle everything that can be recycled. I use renewable, low pollution forms of energy for my house. I drive as little as possable and I am currently working on a biodiesel truck so when I do have to drive it will not be another form of pollution. I plant trees and get involved in environmental clean up projects. I try to help others to think green in their lifestyle.
I'm just a guy that has noticed that man really is ruining the earth. It's not like there is another one we can go to. So even though this thread is about all this modern crap that is eroding bowhunting, it is also important to state that it is this same junk that is helping to erode the planet.
Post by: wapiti on January 22, 2007, 12:29:00 AM
Post by: wapiti on January 22, 2007, 12:35:00 AM
Post by: vermonster13 on January 22, 2007, 07:31:00 AM
Post by: wapiti on January 22, 2007, 02:13:00 PM
Post by: vermonster13 on January 22, 2007, 02:37:00 PM
While what you say sounds good to yourself and some, we trad archers are a huge minority. To get a better idea of what you wish to oppose, visit a site like Archery Talk and read some threads.
I try to pick my battles when it comes to hunting, I have very limited resources and try to make the best I can of them. Some monsters are just to big to tackle head on. Education and leading by example are the tools we can use most effectively. Confronting other hunters or telling them the way they do something is wrong will never lead to the results we would hope for.
Also don't take this as a condemnation or attack. I try to show both sides and prevent threads from becoming to tunnel visioned at times. We're a pretty closed community here and tend to agree a lot more than not and that doesn't always prepare us well for the reality beyond us.
Post by: wapiti on January 22, 2007, 06:28:00 PM
Yes I have been to trad talk and they can keep the carbon limbs and metal risers. If they can shoot em well thats great. Many like the heavy risers etc. I just don't care for the feel. I carry my Toelke not because it is the 'best' or the 'fastest' but it is what feels right to me and it is ethical and fair in my eyes and John Q. Public. The fact that I love wood just might be a factor too. LOL
Post by: Old Ways on January 22, 2007, 07:41:00 PM
You are also right in saying, "The newbs are starting out with the wrong ideals, reasons, drive, goals whatever". I wasn't allowed to bow hunt until I learned to sneak up withen 10 feet of a deer. I had to learn to respect the animal before I ever got the chance to "whack" one. I also was taught that anything I killed was to be for food only so if I shot a mouse or sparrow guess what I was eating.
A thread like this can step on toes but it can get people thinking too. The magazines, commercials, hunting shows and even our peers can make us think we can only succeed by using this or that. A few people see through it while others need a wake up call so a thread like this is good.
Vermonster13 - I agree with you that "Education and leading by example are the tools we can use most effectively". That is why I only teach traditional archery, still-hunting and stalking. I try to steer my friends, students, etc. away from the commercialization that is everywhere and especially when it comes to natural activities such as hunting. When a thread like this comes up I try to get others to see what I see. To think before they buy. To try to be part of the solution not add to the problem. You are right, "Some monsters are just to big to tackle head on" and that's where threads like this can help to get people to think for themselves based on sound reasonings of others.
Post by: Brian Krebs on January 25, 2007, 03:04:00 AM
The writing is on the wall for bowhunting seasons- they lifted restrictions on let-off and arrow weight in the same meeting.
Fish and Game employees are openly stating: that they intend to shorten bow seasons; because of the increase in technology; and the effect upon game taken.
Our fish and game though just makes recommendations to the fish and game commissioners. While the commissioners acted on muzzleloaders and the letoff and arrow weight rules...they have not yet made any decisions about making a 'traditional bow only' area(s). However: they have to know what fish and game biologists are thinking.
Traditional bowhunters here have asked the commision for special traditional bow only hunts- and the loudest screams of agony in the past (when this issue was addressed before) has been from compound bow hunters- and even traditional bowhunters.. not rifle hunters.
Idaho bowhunters are (pardon the pun) shivering in their quivers- over the fate of bowhunting seasons.
The traditional muzzleloader seasons were excepted sometime back; and there was no screaming about it.
The new rule change- which would not allow modern technology in the muzzleloader hunt happened; and I think the same thing should happen with traditional bowhunting.
Because I don't want the old way of hunting with a bow to ever be punished by the actions of people using modern equipment: be it because of increased take; or increased hunter preasure or as the result of actions by those that only hunt with a bow as 'another thing to hunt with'.
That group is our enemy; not as individuals- but in their effect as a group. This may not have struck yet in some eyes- but it is clearly a real threat.
This 'tradgang.com' is about traditional bows; and what is best for its interests.
I am flat out saying that making traditional only seasons- in areas where there is no existing hunting opprotunity- ( like a time period that is now closed to hunting- but is biologically a candidate for hunting) should be the thing we should support and put great efforts into.
I know the very thought makes some want to run in fear of the unknown- but it is our duty: to stand strong.
I am not suggesting that anything be taken away from compound bowhunters- that will happen in time by the biologists; and the muzzleloader season problem proves it.
I am suggesting that where it is biologically ok to hunt a species; where no hunt now exists: that a traditional bow only season be established.
I know - as I have stated from talks with fish and game officials here in Idaho- that bow seasons are going to be shortened.
IF there is a traditional definition and seasons in place; the lost time in the bow seasons that exist now- might not include traditional bowhunters.... that is the word from our fish and game!!
And I am aware of increased preasure from the increased technologies of bowhunting- certainly we should all not go down in a ship that we have nothing to do with- and is headed in a different direction as traditional bowhunting.
Post by: et on January 25, 2007, 02:20:00 PM
Vermonster 13, I fully disagree with your statement "If you think the compound bow offers an easy way you are mistaken". It is the easy way, accuracy can be bought and range extended with very little practice. At lest the trad bowhunter has to work on outdoor skills to get close or spend a significant time investment on longer range shooting. Who hasn't been just out of range with their equipment and wouldn't just increasing your effective yardage by 5-10 yards led to a shot opportunity? My observations lead me to believe that the modern gadgets triple the new comers perceived effective range and doubles it for the more experienced hunter.
I spoke with my region commissioner and made recommendations against lowering the arrow weight and as far as I know every bowhunter organization in Idaho did as well. The reasoning for doing so was for "youth and women" hunters to have a better trajectory ie. to make it easier, we wouldn't want Jr to have to work at developing their skills would we. This push to increase hunter ranks by making it easy is flat out toxic IMO. There will always have to be new "advances" for the manufactures to stay in business and take the hunt out of hunting.
This is only site I am aware of where on hears opinions like Old Way and Wapiti and it is great to hear like minded individuals. The majority of folks that I know that share these views never visit hunting forums. I am getting so cranky about "hunters" that I am getting ready to drop out of all the organizations that I belong to. Then I get annoyed because as I see it isn't really the "hunters" it is just the "hunters" that the manufactures are creating.
I agree that the best we can do is educate and model the skills and behavior that we value. However I will not delude myself into thinking that the majority of folks I get to teach in Bowhunter Ed are not going to fall prey to the mass media publications.
The lets all stand together, and if it’s legal its ethical argument makes me miss Paul Watson and the "Sea Shepherd" all the more.
et
Post by: vermonster13 on January 25, 2007, 02:38:00 PM
Traditional equipment is no where near as limiting as most would like everyone to think either if you take the time to practice and shoot. Letting everyone believe that the effective range of traditional equipment is limited to 20 yards doesn't do us any favors.
Post by: Brian Krebs on January 25, 2007, 03:32:00 PM
If of the 12% that make a kill are comprised of 90% traditional bowhunters... what would that say?
It would come down to interpretation.
I have been in the woods hunting elk and heard cars and trucks driving up the road ; stopping; turning off the vehicle; bugling; slamming the doors of the vehicle and driving up the road further and doing it again- with another vehicle every 15 minutes... maximum.
Now experienced hunters -with whatever bow- are not doing that; they are sitting over wallows; stalking; glassing; and as the amount of bugling is insane; by the inexperienced: not bugling.
The success rate might not have a dang thing to do with the type of bow. It might well have to do with the type of hunter.
So that statistic is not reflective of who is getting the kill. Is it hunters with 10 years of experience or more; is it young hunters with legs that can carry them further into the places the animals are; is it indeed the easier shot placement with a compound bow; or is it traditional bowhunters with 20 years or more experience?
In and of itself; the percent of kill is just a statistic; not anything more than that.
However- improving the statistic will reveal more.. then again : do you want to compare the kill percentage of people hunting with a traditional bow to a compound bow- or would you like years of experience tossed into the statistic?
I think - like in the case here in Idaho; where the increased kill in the muzzleloader hunt led to restrictions in the equipment: was not well thought out. I like the result of it; but the thinking behind it- well I question it.
I think the factors that effect my hunt more than anything; is the advancement of technology- not only in bows and range finders and such: but also- in the purchase and uncontrolled use of ATVs.
Here in Idaho; we have areas where no motorized vehicles are allowed. If you hike back into these areas and an ATV zooms by - with no required off road sticker on it to identify it- there is nothing you can do about it.
Forest service officials are limited to telling children they must wear a helmet; and they cannot legally chase an atv in an area closed to atvs- unless they do so on foot or on a horse.
That kind of intrusion is effecting my hunting more than anything.
The fact that there are compound bows strapped to the front of every single one of them in the fall - well that is an interesting statistic.
The more people believe that if they can afford to buy something; it should give them more- and they should expect more- the more we suffer by hunting the old way.
I have met atv hunters who just do not understand why a road is closed - and marked closed- when they can drive up or down a hill and get around the closed gates. They have the money- they should be able to drive where they want.
And the fact that they are also using a bow that is supposed to make it easier- just re-enforces their mindset that breaking the law is justified.
Think about it- who do they have to follow ? What leader is out there to set another example for them? Who is stopping them? Who dares to question them?
How do you get into their thick skulls; that because they took two days off to hunt; and that they have an atv that can go anywhere; and they have a tag- that they do not have the right to do whatever they have too: to kill an animal?
It looks soooooo easy on tv - doesn't it?
And when ATV ads show 'road ends' signs morphing into ' fun begins' signs: who will hold them to the light of truth?
When the apparent heros of bowhunting are people that hunt high fence and kill big animals consistantly: and not the beanpole; okra chomping kid with a homeade bow- that hunts for months to kill a doe: what is the average guy interested in this thing called 'bowhunting' supposed to think that 'IT' is?
Seems like the masses of tv shows and compound hunters are stomping our ten thousand year old relationship with nature into a mudhole- yet if someone says that: the traditional world runs for cover screaming " don't make them mad!" " they will destroy us!".
They are already working to that end.. friends.
Post by: vermonster13 on January 25, 2007, 03:39:00 PM
Post by: et on January 25, 2007, 04:02:00 PM
I agree that the compound doesn’t make one a better hunter and I will step out on to hallowed ground and claim that many of the hunters today are better at hunting then Pope& Young ever were. They were great pioneers in the sport. I have never heard of Ishi taking 50 yard shots most of what I can remember is him describing getting close.
On the target range the compound is supreme. Shooting a 300 round is my best example. With my heavy(mass) recurve I can consistently shoot in the 250's. The 19 oz longbow I am shooting this winter, to work on form, I will probably have a high score of 230 this year at least right now that is the goal( today it looks like 220 will be good). A couple of years ago I had our shop owner set me up with all the bells and whistles for fun. After a couple of practice rounds I was able to shoot 294 and 296. I consider myself an OK shot but I am certainly not in the ranks of many dedicated shooters. The compound is what allowed me to shot such a high score.
The key with Trad shooting is the time and the practice to become proficient, which is the anti thesis to what the manufactures are selling and what the compound represents. Target archery has shown that trad gear is good way out beyond 40 yrds. I would question if any bow should be used to shoot at big game past 40 yrds given the unpredictability of animals movement and the increased scrutiny all hunters have come under. (Which I also blame the manufactures to a degree for the way, they have portrayed hunting in the public eye.)
Our opinions are probably much closer aligned then this brief thread would indicate so I am content to acknowledge that I long for the archery that was and may never be again. et
Post by: jindydiver on January 25, 2007, 05:08:00 PM
Quote
Originally posted by vermonster13:Too right, if you make a personal choice to use a style of bow you should be happy for yourself, not looking to berate others because they didn’t make the same choice.
Just because a person doesn't choose to use Traditional equipment or hunt the same way as I do, doesn't make them less of a hunter or less ethical. What I am saying is do not judge a hunter by the equipment that they choose. We have bigger fish to fry than each other.
I understand the arguments run deeper than that (scopes on muzzleloaders etc’) but this argument looks the same as that made by the vegetarians:- “we should all be doing it my way because it is the right way”.
I am glad I live in a country where we have very few closed seasons and very few restrictions on what we can do once we hit the forest.
Post by: et on January 25, 2007, 06:47:00 PM
There are unfortunately way to many "hunters" out there like Brain describes and I don't have time to fry them, but I will fry their apologist and before long join the ranks of the anti-hunter, who hunts. et
Post by: wapiti on January 25, 2007, 08:03:00 PM
Post by: Old Ways on January 25, 2007, 08:20:00 PM
There has to be some restrictions put on methods and equipment not only for fair chase but also for environmental concerns related to the manufacture of this extra and un-needed stuff.
Teddy Roosevelt once said "...The rich people, who are content to buy what they have not the skill to get by their own exertions—these are the men who are the real enemies of game."
Post by: vermonster13 on January 25, 2007, 08:58:00 PM
Post by: ratgunner on January 25, 2007, 10:24:00 PM
Post by: Brian Krebs on January 25, 2007, 11:34:00 PM
Wow Wow WOW. You know you put that thought on the shelf since Teddy was around- and look where we are: right in the middle of what was right about what he said!!
Ratgunner: I don't believe anyone implied that only traditional bows should be allowed- or that peope that hunt with compounds are outlaws... not convinced you authored it either.
I do see the positive of compounds; in getting some people interested in bowhunting- but the problem is that the compound industry has taken the lead in: "thinking bowhunting".
That- THAT- is our punishment- and it will lead to more punishment.
If there are 100 compound hunters for every traditional bowhunter; and things are decided by democracy- well: unless we have our ducks in order; we will certainly lose.
I am saying that it is no sin- to make a statement about what traditional bowhunting is; and what it is not. It is not a sin either to have a solid stance on it.
We are not the wavering ideology- we are the strong ideology: and that will be our saving grace.
Not that many years ago I argued that in the future- the increased numbers of bowhunters that hunt with compounds- will eventually weigh on all of us. I was laughed at and even physically threatened with death for saying it.
Now the very same people see that THEIR way of bowhunting; with 65% let off bows and heavy arrows and such - is being changed: and they feel the pain of that. And now they are saying "WHOA!" to an out of control wagon that is being pulled into the future by technology.
And they are seeing that what I said: was not out of hatred for them; but out of concern for bowhunting.
I bet that within 10 years- compound bows- will be called 'cam bows'; and that their will be built in range finders- and pins that automatically adjust to the distance to the target.
One pin; set the laser point on the target; the pin moves to the appropriate place; the arrow held back in place with a bar; until the trigger is pulled and the arrow is released.
We already see axle lengths that are closing in on twenty four inches.
What we can expect too: is that all the romance and 'witchery' of bowhunting; will come down to accuracy- and there will be tests to prove that you are "worthy of the privilege to hunt".
The path of technology will take all of us- to a place that no traditional bowhunter will want to be.
And if you have not been called irresponsible; or laughed at or scorned yet: because you use a traditional bow- well get ready- your turn is coming.
I hunt with a longbow; I hunt with a flat bow; I hunt with a recurve bow; all bows that have existed well back in our history; and are rooted in history: with fine men representing them. Like the guy we called Ishi; and Fred Bear; and Dal Lowery; and soo many others!!!!
I am not asking for people to honor those people that have graced our planet and our lives; and have built integrity into what bowhunting is: I am demanding that we honor those people.
Demanding that we make a stand; and set our feet with no intent of retreat. That we insist- that those we honor not be forgotten : by making what they stood for recognised; and keeping that integrity alive in what we do.
I just don't have any faith that the path of technology (and as mentioned the era of the "want over the need") is going to get ideological before... bowhunting is considered by the public; and by society. Creating an impact upon ALL bowhunters.
'ALL' meaning traditional bowhunters will be judged as the same group; and suffer the consequences of actions; as upon that entire group.
Its not so hard to say that a section of water is for 'fly fishing only'; and is it not a reality: that traditional muzzleloader hunters have their place and recognition.
What in the heck is wrong with us claiming the same separation of thought and action?
??? ???
Post by: wapiti on January 26, 2007, 12:22:00 AM
I never heard of this being patented and I don't believe he was seriuos about selling it as he had the time and money to do what he wanted. But this kinda of stuff is what is happening to todays bowhunter. We are loosing the skills of hunting and once lost then the seasons follow as the public is NOT going to see the point of public hunting. We may loose out to hired guns to control the population in time. V13 is right. Lead by example but do not let things slide. See the need for some technology but also see the the destructiveness of too much.
Post by: Old Ways on January 26, 2007, 12:32:00 AM
We each have to choose for ourselves what path we will follow. Each decision we make shows others what path we are on. I for one, as I refine myself, choose to walk in a way that shows my respect for the game I pursue and the very planet we and they live on.
I once hunted with a compound but everytime I held it in my hand it said I was more into technology and less into nature. It said I believed a gadget could make me a better hunter. Now I prefer a bow hand crafted of renewable, natural materials. Now I prefer to trust my instincts and my skill.
It is not only bow hunting where I have made changes. I use to have a motorboat now I choose to canoe. I use to race motocross, now I race mountain bikes. I use to heat with propane, now I use the sun and environmentally safe biomass. I use to be a consumer but now I live a simple life. These are just a few of many changes I chose to make in my life to help our planet. In doing so I also helped myself. I am happier.
Do I condemn others for their path. No. But I do try to make them see where it is heading. When the compound was invented it was with good intention. So was alot of the other gadgetry. I should know, I hold a patent for a high tech bow design. But like they say "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Like Brian said we need to make a stand. Not just for the ethics of bow hunting but for all things that are right. Who decides what is right? Well, if the very fabric of the planet suffers because of our decision then you can bet it is a wrong one.
And like V13 has said we can best win others over by education and our example. Tell and teach others the beauty and heritage of traditional hunting. Tell them of Fred, Ishi, yourself and others who have honored the old ways. Let them see and feel the beauty of a fine wood bow in their hands and experiance the magic of it launching an arrow. Help them appreciate the trees that make our bows and arrows and teach them to respect the game they pursue.
Post by: ratgunner on January 26, 2007, 09:09:00 AM
"good old days" than most realize.People looked at things differently,maybe not get the big one at all costs but sure as heck get the freezer filled at all costs was the attitude.I also know this from a few old game wardens[some of who were also outlaws].Point is technology doesnt make you unethical.
Post by: fxe on January 27, 2007, 08:42:00 PM
Post by: ratgunner on January 27, 2007, 09:22:00 PM
Post by: Old Ways on January 27, 2007, 10:30:00 PM
I disagree that a compound is too effective and that traditional equipment is lacking. I have a 100% rate of recovery with my traditional equipment. Something I cant say for my wheel bow days. My best bucks have also been taken with trad gear. The problem is that technology is trying to push the limits of what archery is all about. I saw an "outdoor show" the other week (looked like they were hunting in someones backyard)and they filmed and bragged about a 60 yard kill shot. That is a high risk shot with any archery gear. But that is what alot of the high tech bow crowd eat up. It is more about speed and distance and less about skill and finesse. Relying on gadgets instead of skills is sure to result in a greater percentage of lost game.
Personnally I have found a recurve or longbow to be a better weapon for stalking than a compound ever was. Don't need any of that other stuff either. No tree stands, no blinds, no carbon suits, no rangefinders, no release, etc, etc, etc.
Ratgunner - funny you should bring up fly-fishing. Here in Michigan there are some streams that are only open to fly-fishing. They are considered "quality" fishing areas. It is interesting that you see alot less litter in those areas. No discarded bait containers, lure boxes or piles of tangeled line. Makes me wonder, do people that want a quality experiance like fly-fishing or traditional hunting have more respect for nature too?
Post by: wapiti on January 27, 2007, 11:05:00 PM
Post by: ratgunner on January 28, 2007, 01:15:00 AM
Post by: ChuckC on January 28, 2007, 07:09:00 AM
It is not going to stop. The cat is out of the bag. What possible new participants hear about, read about, or see (TV etc) hunting, it is the new way, the "better" way.
Our very lives are run by commercialism...to get the better one. Look around, which truck has the most power in its class (whatever that is) the most room, the most towing capacity. They always have a disclaimer so they can say "best" or "most". Not "pretty good".
I saw a billboard somewhere on one of my trips...about high speed internet "fastest speed in the city" ("under 19.99" in small letters).
This is what we are and what we do....compete.
Is it good....well, not in my mind. But I am one of 300,000,000 of us in the US. Most see only what they read or are told.
I believe many of us buy into this, really believing this as God's truth...I did for a short time. Compounds are faster , sights are more precise, releases allow better reproduceability, all of these things are true.....and...they are easier for the average person to master.
"Heck, it makes sense to use the bestest and the fastest to make the best most assured kill. It's good for the critter and good for me..." it does make sense...kinda. Then you start saying...well, I practice out to 50 yards, 75 yards, 100 yards. Now things start to unravel. Besides...if I can shoot 75 yards, left and right, why I can cover that whole woodlot. If a trophy walk past...its mine !
We are what we are, competitive beings. Some of us think a little differently and are wired in a fashion that it is the trip and not the destination. The getting there, not the trophy.
Some of us like to use as little technology as we can get by with AND STILL do the job well. We get great joy out of outfoxing the critter using our inate skills.
But not everyone thinks this way, heck, most don't. We have to deal with that. Not them.
Life is not gonna stop cause we say so. There may come a point when the populace says "enough", but I really believe that the small group of us can do nothing except "shine in the publics eye" as doing it well and doing it right.
A buddy and I killed a couple does in a northern forest a few years back. Last minute of the day and we chose to come back and trail in the light of the next day, after some fruitless dark time searching. Next morning, we found both and drug them out past some younger people gearing up to go fish. They saw our deer and shook their heads and then saw our bows and said..."at least you did it the right way". Their meaning was loud and clear to me. I agree, I did it the right way. But so many others do not agree.
ChuckC
Post by: Old Ways on January 28, 2007, 10:50:00 AM
To me this thread is about more than just archery. It may be true that it is too late to change the minds of people. It seems they are content to consume this planet until it is dead. At the rate it is going it might not last much longer anyway.
I'm not one to give up though. I believe in taking a stand for what is right regardless of what my peers do. Preach it enough and maybe someone will hear it. Might not do any good but it makes me feel better than just sitting there and watching it burn.
I aplaud the many on this site that are here because they want to do things the natural way. I only hope that they are striving to achive a natural balance in other aspects of life too.
Post by: wapiti on January 28, 2007, 11:38:00 AM
Post by: ratgunner on January 28, 2007, 12:47:00 PM
Post by: Old Ways on January 28, 2007, 01:20:00 PM
Besides if you really want to do it like us or me you wouldn't throw anything away. Don't forget the 3 Rs, Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. :thumbsup:
Post by: ratgunner on January 28, 2007, 01:37:00 PM
Post by: Old Ways on January 28, 2007, 02:43:00 PM
As far as a definition of tradition goes the dictionary I have says;
"3. handing down of customs: the handing down of patterns of behavior, practices, and beliefs that are valued by a culture".
Our tradition of hunting with a bow is passed down from thousands of years of using a stick and string to launch another sharpened stick at the game. It is simple, it is natural. Then comes along someones "better idea" and it suddenly wants to be given the same respect. Remember even this site doesn't recognize compounds as traditional equipment.
G. Fred Asbell (president of Compton Traditional Bowhunters) put it this way, "It is important that Compton continues to promote the use of traditional bowhunting equipment to forge ahead with a strong national identity of the traditionalist in bowhunting. It is important that non-hunters, hunters and various fish and game departments specifically see traditional bowhunting as a contrast to modern bowhunting, which on occasion tilts a bit too heavily toward instant success, with no regard for the long term cost to what began as a primitive sport and a more difficult way."
Post by: ChuckC on January 28, 2007, 04:31:00 PM
I agree, we are getting way to good at killing with a bow. And I think many people despise the fact that you can almost buy your way into a big buck. Problem right now is...there are way too many deer.
The collective DNR's are up to their ears in deer, and with people moving out into the former country side and further restricting hunting, it will get worse. They will not change things to more restrictive unless this changes.
Out west, well, that is another thing. There is where we may start seeing some changes and hopefully people in the rest of the US will listen up. Until we have fewer deer (which make up MOST of the big game hunts), and until we can do something about industry and their "you ain't a REAL man till you shot a Booner" mentality, I don't see any restrictions coming in the east.
Please don't take this wrong....I almost totally agree with you. I just don't see us changing it.
Shine on guys, teach the youth what life really is.
ChuckC
Post by: SteveB on January 29, 2007, 08:40:00 PM
And there might just be a lot of them pushing back if they are threatened too hard.
Steve
Post by: Old Ways on January 30, 2007, 01:42:00 AM
Quote
AZStickman - I know everyone is different but I have a hard time understanding this mindset..... Trad bows and traditional bowhunting to me are not about the pursuit of speed.... or contorting designs to make them shoot "like compounds" while allowing one to still call themselves a trad bowhunter..... Traditional bowhunting is about self imposing limitations on yourself with the equipment you choose to hunt with and then honing your woodsmanship to achieve success......In my eyes the ones who master that are the true traditional bowhunters........ Terry:clapper:
Post by: ChuckC on January 30, 2007, 01:04:00 PM
Compounds / everything else.
Cross bows don't count, they are in a class of their own. ChuckC
Post by: ratgunner on January 30, 2007, 06:59:00 PM
!["[dntthnk]"]("graemlins/dntthnk.gif" "\"\"")
Post by: Old Ways on January 31, 2007, 12:26:00 PM
Like ChuckC said, "We gotta shine guys. We, as a group, have to stand out, maybe above, but at least out. We have to teach others, but not sound pompous or "better than". We have to work on this, no doubt. But it is gonna be tough to change what is. In the end, someone else is gonna make the decision for all of us." (Well said Chuck)
I was once told that before you take a bulldozer to someone's house make sure they have a better one to move into. That is what we have to do. Not fight with the tech-hunters but let them see the art, skill, balance and beauty of hunting the simple way and for the right reasons. Many of us here are here because we saw the light. We decided for ourselves we were ready to leave the training wheels and gadgets behind and hunt more primatively.
We also have to respectfully reason with the anti-hunters as to why we hunt and the reasons it can actually be beneficial to the environment. (see new thread on reasoning with an anti-hunter) The more allies we have the better it will be.
Post by: vermonster13 on January 31, 2007, 12:40:00 PM
Post by: wapiti on January 31, 2007, 03:22:00 PM
Post by: Baim on January 31, 2007, 03:56:00 PM