I've been asked by a friend To outfit him with a arrow and broadhead combination for a February Buffalo hunt out West. He is using his current whitetail bow but wants a heavier arrow/broadhead set up. Everything I have heard and read about Bison is that you should be shooting for the heavy carpet that covers the front shoulders. I would expect that this hair is thick and matted and since the hunt will take place in February, that it might also be ice covered. For this reason, I will be shooting for an arrow weight over 700 grains.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow91.jpg)
After looking around for arow shafts, I settled on Carbon Express Heritage with the wood grain look. These shafts weigh around 12 grains per inch. The shafts are on order. Next, I picked the Wensel Woodsman as the broadhead for this hunt because I wanted him to use a strong, cut on contact head. The 3:1 aspect ratio of the woodsman means greater penetration. I ordered from 3Rivers, a half dozen 125 grain Woodsmans and since he will be screwing these into a carbon shaft, I also got some 100 grain steel adapters that are needed to mount a glue on style head to a carbon arrow. For added weight, I also got 50 grain brass arrow inserts instead of the normal 15 grain aluminum inserts. I also got him some brass weight washers.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/Bisonarrow.jpg)
I am trying to create a front heavy arrow (FOC moved forward) after reading Dr. Ashby's report on extreme FOC arrows and their increased ability to penetrate. So far, that adds up to 285 grains at the tip alone. The shafting weighs 12 grains per inch and he uses a 29 inch shaft for 348 grains of carbon. He is using a luma nock and (3) 5 inch barred turkey feathers so that should add another 30 grains putting us at 663 grains so far.
Since my son and I are working on a broadhead collection, I used one of our Wensel Woodsmen heads to do a little testing. The woodsman has a very sharp tip but bison bones are big so I filed a secondary tip angle which shortened the head by about an 1/8 of an inch but will make the tip less likely to bend or curl upon impact with a large bone. I am planning on a worst case scenario in that he hits a rib on both sides of the bison.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow4.jpg)
Next, I took the woodsman and sharpened it to a fine edge and then lapped it on ceramic plates to get a mirror finish on the cutting edge.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow3.jpg)
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow5.jpg)
In an effort to show my friend the benefits of a cut on contact head, I set up an experiment where he and I used two very common and popular heads on the market. A Muzzy and a Thunderhead that were in our collection. I used a short length of shaft and some sponges to keep the arrow from sliding around on the scale.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow7.jpg)
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow2.jpg)
I used a very thick and heavy piece of boot leather as the test medium. I placed the leather over each broadhead and by holding the leather out at the edges, pressed down until the head passed thru the leather. My friend watched the scale to check the poundage. I started with the Muzzy. I pushed down until I reached 30 pounds of force and I could not get the tip to go thru the leather.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow8.jpg)
Next, I used the Thunderhead and when I applied 24 pounds of force, the head came thru but ripped the leather until the blades could start cutting. The thunder head hole is to the left on the picture above.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow6.jpg)
Lastly, we used the Woodsman and It went thru the leather so fast and with such ease that we repeated the test several times to make sure we could trust the results. After 4 tries, we kept coming up with the same results. It took 6 pounds of force to slice thru the leather and there was no tearing, just clean cuts. There are other heads on the market with cut on contact tips that are just as good but I think the Woodsman was a good choice for this hunt.
I hope to have the shafts in a few days so I can begin to construct the arrows. In order to reach the 700 plus final weight, I have decided to use a few 27 inch lengths of .065 string trimmer (weed whacker) line that will be placed inside the arrows. This will ad weight from front to back but will not change the arrow spine which is 350. I will post more as the project progresses.
Well, it seems that I was not re-inventing the wheel with my broadhead test. Watch the attached video. Dale from 3Rivers does it with a soft (and thinner) tanned elk hide. My hide was full grain so it took more force for my test. He also did his test with what looks like a Magnus head. I think the bones and heavy carpet over the shoulder of a bison warrants going overboard in terms of penetration.
I should have known Dale would have done this sort of test. He is as anal as I am. Dale's Parents live about 5 miles from mine. I saw him at Compton last year. He still occasionally hunts in Rosholt.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpHpVR5SUX8
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bison8.jpg)
Ron,
I use Wensels with the factory tip and a modified tip like yours and haven't found any difference in penetration on whitetails. For elk I use the modified tip but I do not think that it is really necessary. As for a bison arrow I used a 625 grain lodge pole pine shaft, footed with purpleheart, and tipped with a 190 grain grizzly. Total weight of the arrow was 625 grains. I used a 58# selfbow and got plenty of penetration (16 inches and through a rib) at fifteen yards. It appears your setup has plenty if energy to do the job if you put the arrows where it needs to go. My only recommendation to your setup would be to use a two blade broadhead if you are worried about penetration. However, my hunting buddy, Lenny Brown, used a Wensel with the factory tip on a bison with excellent results (centered the heart). His setup was a Robertson longbow which pulls about 53-55#'s at his draw length and a cedar arrow weighing around 525 grains. I shot mine in December when it was around 15 degrees with sixty mile an hour winds (gusts above eighty) but don't remember seeing enough ice on the sides of the bison to effect penetration. My shot was slightly quartering down wind and the arrow was tailing about three or four inches on impact, which probably hindered the penetration some. To get you a little more excited, here is a picture of me with the bison.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y91/Slivershooter/Buffalo2007007.jpg)
Oh ya, half of the arrows in my quiver were 650 grain hex shafts tipped with Woodsmens that I was going to use until I changed my mind at the last minute.
I do not have any experience with WW's, but very good post with some excellent enfo!
Really gives some weight to the cut-on-impact broadhead as being the best for penetration.
thanks for posting!
jake
That is some good info, and Walt that is an awesome picture!
Nothing against the Wensel Woodsmen broadheads, I use them for deer. But I would use the 190gr grizzly also. There is alot of bone mass in that buffalo. JMO
I'm not trying to pick a fight or disparage the Woodsman broadhead but... You are obviously reading Ashby-you refer to him and heavy arrows/high FOC arrows etc. so why not a 2 blade?
Like some of the others have asked. Why not a two blade? I prefer the grizzly. I'm not a big fan of the WW's at all.
I could not talk this hunter into a 2 bladed head nor a single bevel. I tried. The heads I make for my own hunting are single bevel heads.
You can lead a horse to water.
Walt, great beast you got there.
Cool Thread !! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
looks like you got some of the few "good" Woodsman heads.....
I killed my Bison with a 160 STO's at the end of a POC footed shaft for a total weight of 625gr. I shoot a 60# longbow. That's a good drawing of the Bison you have and the spine does sit lower then you think. I know because that's what I hit when I shot and dropped the big critter in it's tracks. The broad head is fine and ready for it's next kill.
One thing about the Bison, it takes them a little while to leave the group memeber that you shot and might get the idea to chase you. Just an FYI
I shot a 2000# buff with a 70# longbow and a two blade on a 730 grain arrow, and it deflected on a rib and penetraited only 5 inches OUTSIDE the rib cage from 15 yards.....2nd shot moments later was a WW on a 630 grain arrow at 35 yards that buried to the fletch when it hit the off shoulder. Both shots were quartering away very close to the same angle.
Kind of interesting, all you hear about big game is 2 blades, and the two blade failed me.....and the 3 blade did the trick AND on a 100 grain lighter arrow. Sometimes I think its all just luck of the draw.
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/tgbuff2.jpg)
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/Buffy2.JPG)
Ron,
That may be the finest post ever made on TradGang. Excellent detail and support photos. Can you do a series fo us of all the North American Game...it would be excellent reference!
Thanks but I don't think I have that kind of time. LOL I will continue this through hopefully a picture of the hunter next to his bison.
I'm courious, Why the weed whacker string and not a weight toob. Is there a difference in performance.
No but the string trimmer line is a little more adjustable. With a weight tube, there is no room to add/subtract/tweek. Once the tube is cut to length you can't adjust it. With the trimmer line (4 strands) I can have more weight in the front by making two strands shorter and biasing them to the front of the arrow when I tape them together.I think I might be able to get more weight with the string trimmer line as well. In the end, this might all be crap. I am learning as I go along. I keep an open mind.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow92.jpg)
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow93.jpg)
Well, I hope one of your buddy's goes on an elk hunt :notworthy: .
hey rgk!
how much do 4 of those strands weigh per inch once bundled together?
I have yet to weight any of the components.
I did the same thing to my arrows with the weed eater line. Im using .080 line, 1 inch is approximatly 2 grains. I shoot 29 inch arrows. I cut approximtly 2 inches off making the line 27 inches. This figures out to be 54 grains per line. I put four lines in the arrow and use a 225 grain tip with a 9.3 grain arrow. I figure it weighs roughly 710 grains give or take a little. Im using weed eater line because its so much cheaper then the tubes. I have used the tubes.
9.3 gpi
The shafts showed up in the mail on Sat., so I cut them to length and epoxied the 50 grain brass inserts in place. On Sunday, while smoking 15 pounds of bacon, I had some time to work on the bison arrows again. The fellow asked that I use barred feathers and crest the arrows. The colors he picked were black, red and silver cresting to match the fletching.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow94.jpg)
While the cresting was drying, I assembled the 125 grain Woodsmen and the 100 grain steel adapters. I also placed 2 brass weight washers on the heads. Total head weight: 235 grains.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow95.jpg)
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow97.jpg)
Over the course of the day I was able to get two of the shafts fletched.
(http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w124/bow_project/bisonarrow96.jpg)
Awesome thread! Just curious: how much weight is he pulling at what draw? Looking forward to the rest of it! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
70 Lbs.
Great thread Ron - thanks for all the info!
Great thread Ron! Very descriptive and well laid out! :bigsmyl:
Nigel
I agree...great thread....gotta love that snow buff pic of Walts.
Terry
I'll reiterate... great thread... RGK, I enjoy following your progress.
Terry, would you please send me some info on your Bison hunt... where, what outfitter, etc. ...thanks you
Don
Is the hunter shooting a recurve or longbow with that setup?
I'll repeat....great thread! Steve O....I'm with you. I'd love to see a similar thread on North American game. I find that I learn much, much more here when the topic is ongoing and interactive than I do from books, etc. Thanks for the info. guys.
Terry and Walt...Wow!! Way to go!
Elk and Bison are definitely on my dream hunt list. Are the majority of Bison hunts done using outfitters? How many guys have been successful on DIY's? If so, where?
CJ
The majority of Bison Hunts are done on ranches for bison "livestock". There are some "free ranging" (Too many fences in the world for that to be completely accurate) herds that are managed by state wildlife agencies. Tags are limited, expensive and hard to draw.
My Buff kill was not really a hunt, but it sure was exciting...you can read about the adventure here.......
Montana Longbow Adventure....... (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=4;t=000120)
Terry,
Most people can't tell, but my picture was taken from close to the same place as yours. Mine was taken north to south and yours from east to west. Also, mine was probably six months later in the year then yours.
Terry, Great story. How quartering was the angle thhat the first head rib skidded?
Walt....if you have any more pics...would you please post them here or email them to me?
Thanks.
Terry,
Yes, I have a few pictures but have to resize them to either post or email. I will try to get them resized this afternoon.
I killed my Bison in October 2006. Shot was broadside from 25 yards. 63#@28" Robertson Vision Falcon IV,200gr Ace Super Express two blade on a Lam Birch shaft,total arrow weight around 840 gr. Shot went through the elbow and then the heart. He was down in 20 sec.
Only truely wild herds of Bison exist in Alaska and the Pink Mountains of BC. A few in Utah and Airizona. Very expensive and once in a lifetime draws for a tag.
Danny
I tried the WW and had disappointing results on big game. I use them for small game now. I prefer Magnus for the big stuff.
We used that broadhead demostration test with a scale and different broadheads teaching the bowhunter safety classes.
One broadhead actually broke the aluminum arrow shaft without going through the hide.
This is a good thread,and well done. Now I want to go for Bison...is there no end...
It was at least 20 years ago when I did bowhunter education classes. There's not too many new things in archery. :campfire:
Roger Rothaar did a similar test(without a scale though) many years ago at one of the early NC Dixie Deer Classics with similar results and sold me on the Snuffers.
Like posted earlier, if you modify the tips, it makes them MUCH more durable. I always modify mine.
Biggie Hoffman went 7 for 7 on African game back in 2004 with Wensel Woodmens, and he never modified his tips. I'd post the link to his animals, but his pics have fell off of photo bucket or something.
Looking forward to seeing the results of this hunt.
Although I find myself using big 160 snuffers now more than WW. It's only because I'm not hunting big critters,deer/turkeys....but when I know I might have a chance at something that might be a little harder than "normal" to penetrate...The WW is my first choice!
I just shot this big boar hog in TX with a WW. Had a snuffer on the string, but had time and cover enough to switch arrows. Had one WW tipped arrow for just such an occasion.....Hide and "shield" was a full 1" thick.....hit in the heavy muscle on the shoulder and hit ribs in and out,but slid between them on both sides......
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/Solana/Solana08008.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/Solana/Solana08072.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/Solana/curt2.jpg)
Although I'm a huge fan of snuffers, if I had to pick one bh to hunt everything big and small with...it would be the WW
hate to ask a foolish question but where did you find the ceramic plates to polish the edge such as that? did you just use a tile.
Two the weed eater string is a good idea, I use weight tubes now but like the idea of getting FOC with the weedies.
J
Good ideas all over!!!
I agree with Curt....I love my Zwickey Delta 4 blades, but if I could only have on head for all game, it would be a WW with a modified tip.....and I wouldn't be afraid to shoot anything with it in N America.
How much of the tip are you guys cutting off to do this modified tip? Thanks...Mike
I don't 'cut off' any...just change the angle so the needle tip becomes a pyramid.....
(http://www.tradgang.com/upload/terry/IMG_3121.JPG)
I do the same as Terry.....just take a file and pyramid the tip.....
tarz...I also noticed you knock back the back corners of the blade too...how much weight does that take off? and what was your primary reason?
curt..is that another qwyk styk in that boar pic? any close-ups?
mooseman...Mr. Lamb does a great job of showing it in the members videos (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=17;t=000047) section, as well as in the bowhunters of Tradgang dvd.
Ron, three blade will always be better then two in most cases. If you hit where your suppose too, the ww will do the job!
Same old KS bud..."Timex" was made for me in '97,been thru he!!,but still shoots as good today as it did the day I picked it up! Just has some copperheads on it now.....
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v77/Guru39/Solana/curt1.jpg)
thx!
Thanks guys. Does doing this remove much weight from the head? I imagine at least a couple grains, but anyone ever weigh em before and after? These will be my go to heads this year...Mike
Just a couple grains.....after several sharpenings from use and going thru critters, most of mine weigh 122grs...give or take a gr. or two
Marc... That's one of Terry's small game Woodsmans...comes out a little easier with the back rounded. :thumbsup:
Charlie is correct...I cut the back corners off the heads I designate for small game so they come out of a leather back quiver much easier.
I leave the corners on the big game WWs.
How much weight does it take off pyramiding the tips?....not enough to worry over.
thanks guys....terry...I was asking the weight question on the back corners, but since its a small game head, guess it doesn't matter too much :)
Not foolish at all. I got them from a friend. He got them from work. This is my whole supply and I doubt I can get more.
QuoteOriginally posted by J-dog:
hate to ask a foolish question but where did you find the ceramic plates to polish the edge such as that? did you just use a tile.
Two the weed eater string is a good idea, I use weight tubes now but like the idea of getting FOC with the weedies.
J
Good ideas all over!!!
Hickstick...I didn't weight them after I cut off the back corners....still wasn't worried about it, and those heads killed a lot of bunnies!
QuoteOriginally posted by Jerry Jeffer:
I tried the WW and had disappointing results on big game. I use them for small game now. I prefer Magnus for the big stuff.
Jerry,
I'd love to hear your results. If you don't want to post then PM them to me. I've seen devastation from the WW to be fantastic.
Wow, great thread! Lots to learn here.
I've got some experience with both the ww and the big grizzly.
Reading Terry's story I was reminded of when I watched my dad kill a large bull buffalo a few years ago... He was set up with the typical single-bevel 2 blade out of his 55# Grizzlybow longbow (700+ grain arrow). On his first shot the arrow hit a rib- it actually bent the broadhead about 40 degrees and only penetrated about 8 inches (taking one lung). Later, a second shot thru the heart finished the impressive animal. Maybe a different broadhead would've made a difference. Personally, I have had great luck with the head, but I doubt you'll get him to shoot them again. Since we all like to look at pictures here he is:
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa42/Grizzlybowscommon/buffalo.jpg)
I think the WW is a great head, and I always modify the tip as mentioned above. I like how they sharpen easily, spin true, and fly like field points. The only reason I shoot a different head now is because I hunt with heavy heads on wooden arrows, and the glue on WW is only 125 gr. Another picture, this the result of a successful whitetail hunt. Notice how I also modified the tip (and how worked over that head looks! I think that was it's 3rd deer).
(http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa42/Grizzlybowscommon/100_0503.jpg)
So- have any of you fellas found a good way to make the WW heavier in the glue-on configuration? I know you can add lead, but will that get it very heavy? I'd love to see it go 190 gr, like the big 2 blades I use now.
I'm anxious to see how the original quest in this thread turned out!
-Vig
Vig, not sure this interests you, but 3 rivers sells a wood screw adapter. Which, to me, looks like an adapter that you glue onto the wood shaft and then you can use screw on heads. You'd really be able to get your point weight up with that. I've never used it (I'm a carbon/aluminum man), but thought it might interest you...Mike
Thanks for sharing Vig. :)
If you're going to use the Woodsman (great broadhead!) it just makes sense to modify the tip ... an ounce of prevention and all that!
It's simple as raising the blades off the stone or file as you drag the broadhead heel first. It takes very little angle change to strengthen the broadhead considerably.
:thumbsup:
Yes! Thanks to you guys who mentioned the screw-in adapter for wood arrows. They go 50 gr, so with that and a 150 gr screw in WW... I think we're in business! Will make for some serious FOC as well.
To hijack the thread a little more...
I might add that a while back at hunting camp my Dad and I had the long debate of needle point vs. rounded tip on the WW. He shot his needle tip razor sharp WW completely through a big cow elk, splitting a rib on the way out. The debate went uncontested as I, well, missed.
-Vig
Vig... the modified tip does equally well in dirt!
:D
What Charlie said....but they are not rounded but pyramided...and a pyramided head will penetrait much more than a bent tip if you catch a rib going in.
I think the diffenence in penetraition of needle vs pyramided is like picking knats out of cow pies.....but the strength of the head is GREATLY improved.
I finished the arrows for this project. All the heads have been modified and the string trimmer line installed. the hunter now has everything and the rest is up to him.
The arrows finished out at 750 grains with a 15% FOC. I hope to have pictures back in a month. He leaves for the hunt on Feb. 16
QuoteOriginally posted by Vig:
Yes! Thanks to you guys who mentioned the screw-in adapter for wood arrows. They go 50 gr, so with that and a 150 gr screw in WW... I think we're in business! Will make for some serious FOC as well.
-Vig
If you really want them heavy make your own screw in WW to work with the adapter. Combine:
Wood Screw adapter - 50 grain
Steel broadhead adapters (screw in) - choice 75, 100, or 125
Glue on WW - 125 grain.
Results: A wood arrow Wensel Woodsman Broadhead - weight 250, 275, or 300 grain
That is what I used for these arrows for his bison hunt. 100 grain steel adapters with 50 grain brass inserts and a 125 grain WW and (2) 5 grain brass weight washers. total front end = 285 grains
I just got word from the Bison hunter. He has his bull. He got penetration on both sides but the arrow did not completely pass through and exit the far side. He got both lungs and the heart and the beast broke his arrow in 3 pieces.
Live weight 2,4000 pounds, Hanging weight (without head, hide, hoofs or guts) 1,109 pounds. Total boneless meat is 717 pounds. It scored in the SCI top 20. I hope to have pictures soon.
the guy's partner got his bull with a restored Sharps rifle and put 6 shots in the boiler room before his bison went down.
AWESOME, can't wait to see the pics!!
Wow...if those numbers are correct....mine was under estimated at 2000 pounds.....
I had 1100 pounds hanging on the nose. Left side 545, right side 555, and 695 pounds of meat.
Cool.
Great post Ron!
Thanks Terry, score one up for the 3-bleders!( and an adorable young lady there as well)
The hunter stopped by my house today to drop off some pictures of his bison and to show me the arrow (all 3 pieces of it) The broadhead was as sharp and as good as new.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/212007154/arrows/jay_bison1.jpg)
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/212007154/arrows/jay_bison4.jpg)
As stated, the entire head came thru the far side but the arrow did not completely pass through and out of the bison.
(http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c239/212007154/arrows/jay_bison3.jpg)
That's great penetration! Nice trophy! Well done Ron! ;) Your arrows worked well! :thumbsup: :D Thanks for sharing! :campfire: :archer:
When the hunter stopped by last night with the pictures, he also brought along a big bag of bison fillets and roasts and steaks and burger. He told me that after doing the math, it would take a year to eat all the bison even if he ate 2 pounds every day. On top of that, I processed a few deer for him this year. I think he is set for red meat for a while.
What bow was he shooting?
Nice pics and story!! Enjoy the meat. Joe
If that buff eats anything like my buff does, that deer meat will be the last to go.....Buff is the best eating!!!! Fun thread to follow, thanks!!!!
Is the bow a secret?
RKG was kind enough to get the bheads up for the hunter....and to not post the bow in the pics. A trad guy helping out a non trad guy .....as of yet :D
At least that's as it seems to me. Thanks RKG.
Man , I just love bloody arrows , hope I can make mine bloody end of apirl!!!
Terry, You get the point. This was a thread about modifying the Wensel Woodsman and building arrows for big game. These arrows could be shot out of any kind of bow. The principles are the same.
Great thread, RGK, I got my first trad deer last fall with a CX 350 with weedeater line in it with a modified Woodsman Broadhead. Took out a rib going in and shoulder blade going out. The arrow was hanging out the other side which was promptly broken off. The head survived and still spins like a top. The Wensel woodsman is tops in my book!!
David
This is a great post. Thanks for all he info.
Wow! great results. Thanks for the follow-up on this thread.
-Vig
just saw this article trying to find stuff to convince people ww's work ...if this dont do it i dont know what will...