TSP's thread about bowhunting being a close-range sport, has become a really good debate. After reading 4 pages(so far) that thread got me thinking about the different sides. Both sides I feel have valid arguments. I find myself agreeing with both sides but also disagreeing on different levels. TSP said he didn't know how to do a poll, so I thought I would set up this little poll just to see.
This should be interesting........
Good open questions...
If not "sport" what would you call it?
The $$ value involved does not typically let it qualify as sustenance hunting.
You do it for enjoyment. If we did not enjoy it we wouldn't be doing it.
Don't be afraid to call it what it is.
thanks interesting few questions im interested to see how it turns out! :thumbsup:
I always find it hard to seek parameters.
Should it be a close range affair ??... that's what I personally like, (close to me is 4 t0 12 yards) that's where all my kills have being, ....but than again if everything feels right I'm ready to take a 40 yarder, so right there I'd contradict myself !
...don't really care for the word sport, lifestyle is more appropriate to me.
Deadsmple, thanks for setting up the poll! What better place than TradGang to ask a question like this...should get a pretty decent 'snapshot' of our collective approach when it comes to shot selection. :thumbsup:
For my self, if i can hit a baseball at 50 yards, im talking all the time, and the situation was right there would be no reason not to take the shot. But even if i was that good i still would not take that 50 yard shot. Not that i think it would be wrong to do so for sombody with the talent but there is somthing in my brain that makes me get as close as i can, to close some times, i cant help my self. So for me it is a close range sport because i choose it to be.
Brother Vaughn the closer the better for me now days. The furthest kill shot I made was years back on a yearling doe 28 paces to the arrow in the ground, she went maybe 40 yards. Would I take a shot that far now? Hard to say seems the older I get the closer I like them.
I believe bowhunting is more of an art form; a relationship with nature- than a 'sport'. Most see a sport- as a game. It is not a game to me.
:archer:
First off, there is no doubt by nature, bowhunting is a close range endeavor.
Some animals and the terrain in which they live, dictate that a ten yard shot is all but impossible. As an example, thirty, or thirty five yard shots at Caribou, are quite common.
Often a Caribou that has been hit with an arrow will bed down within sight. Poor hits can be followed up on much easier than a woodlot whitetail.
Through my bowhunting career, there have been a few animals that I hit with an arrow that I did not recover. ALL of them have one thing in common, they were at or beyond twenty yards or so. Shooting skills were not what caused the errant arrow. It was unseen brush, or movement on the animals part.
When I was younger and less experienced, twenty five yard shots were not uncommon for me to take.
With age, my shot distance has decreased drastically. I pass up shot opportunities now that I would have jumped at years ago.
I`m not telling anyone how far is too far. I`m saying there is no doubt that the percentages for a favorable outcome when you shoot at an animal go way up as the shot distance decreases.
Is bowhunting a "sport"? I say absolutely not.
Baseball, football, basketball, these are examples of a "sport". The outcome of a sport is meaningless. One team wins. A title is gained, maybe. Money, endorsements, are a possibility.
Fame and fortune so to speak. Everyone enjoys some type of "sport".
Bowhunting is so much more than a sport. In my opinion to call hunting in any form a "sport" is an insult to the people who are truely involved in the activity, and certainly an insult to the
animals pursued. Hunting is a noble, time honored endeavor, where traditions are handed down through generations. EVERYONE and EVERYTHING benefits from hunting.
Personally, I never refer to hunting as a "sport". To each his own.
now we're going to get hung up on the word "sport" also? :campfire: :)
I don't see killing as a sport although it is the end result of hunting. Hunting to me is a way of life not a sport!
Larry - :thumbsup:
Like I said on the other thread - subjects that tend to get overthought.
If someone is to be judged or wishes to judge themselves, it should be done on recovery %.
If a hunter with a 40yd max has a better recovery rate then one with a 15yd max, which one needs to be asking why.
Steve
Most sports are competitive! We do not need to hunt for survival! So, in all honesty, I think it is a form of recreation. Eating what we harvest may let hunting fall into the catagory of supplemental food supply, but not survival. As far as being a close range activity, I can't hit a baseball, but I can hit a pie plate consistantly at forty and fifty yards. If that's as close as I can get, considering the size of the animal,forty or fifty would be my closest and best shot. Close to a Grizzly bear is not the same close as close to a chipmunk! Of course if your not confindent in taking that shot, then, you shouldn't. My thoughts! :-)
Ok here's what i'm thinking about long distance shooting at game.
Everyone screams about being ethical out in the woods and respecting our quary and I agree.
Who's to say that a individual who practices long range shooting shoulden't take long shots on game. There are no ethics police to tell someone to shoot or not to shoot. The decision rests entirly on the shooter's conciance.
I have read that Fred Bear took long shots at game. So has Ted Nugent. Both have made quick and humane kills at long range.
I feel that the range that a hunter shoots at game is entirly up to the individual holding the bow,shotgun,or rifle. He or she is the one that knows what their ability is better than anyone else. What may be ethical for me might not be ethical for someone else. It's up to the individual to decide.
Larry
No TSP thank you. I feel the thread you started is a very good example of what makes this site so great. It showed we can have a lively discussion about something we all definitely do not agree on without stooping to name calling and trying to belittle anothers opinion. I'm sure it also allowed some of us to look within ourselves and see who it is we present to others.
Close range?? = Yes!
Close range is ? = 35 yards!
Sport = NO.
to me a sport has rules,referees,points,scores,winners,losers.
I guess some people see all or some of these things in their hunting,for a lot of different reasons,,none of them wrong in my view,just different to my own situation.
The only rules where I hunt are impoused by me,there is no score,no referee,no winner or loser,,,that last one's subject to debate but as far as I'm concerned we all live and then die at the end of the day anyway,so no contest.
My club archery is sport,,my hunting is the following of an age old instinct to provide,it's recreation,it's being a part of the natural cycle,it's me proving myself to myself on a very basic survival level.
It's not sport.
according to my Random House College Dictionary;
sport; an athletic activity requiring skill or physical prowess and often competitive by nature.
sportsman; a man who engages in sports, esp. in some open air sport, as hunting, fishing ect.
If the phrase "competitive by nature" bothers you, I can't count the threads that I've read on here on how we match our skills to the animals we hunt.
:campfire: :coffee:
Besides bowhunting and archery, the other activities I enjoy are mountain climbing, backpacking, and fishing. None of these things involve keeping score so far as I'm concerned; I don't care to keep score, and I'm not good enough that anyone would be impressed with any of my scores anyway. However, scores are kept for all of them by those who care to do so: Pope & Young, archery tournaments, first ascents of mountains or unclimbed routes on mountains, fishing derbys, etc. As far as I'm concerned, all the activities I listed are sports, whether anyone keeps score or not. Heck, I had more fun playing golf when I gave up keeping score.
They fit the dictionary definition posted by Larry. More importantly, they are all considered to be sports in the common usage of the English language. It just helps in communicating with other people, particularly those who are not involved in your activity, to use the same language everyone else uses.
I don't mean to ruffle any feathers here, but one of the things that has irked me over the past 10-20 years has been the movement toward politically correct language. We're not supposed to say waitress, crippled, retarded, or a whole host of other perfectly good English words anymore because someone might be offended, so we make up a bunch of new words that mean exactly the same thing. It seems to me that we're headed in the same direction when we debate whether "sport" describes what we do in bowhunting.
Close, yes BUT close is relative to both the skill of the archer hunting AND the size/nature of the animal being hunted. It is common to have sub 20 yard shots at whitetail, blacktail, pronghorn etc. When hunting from a stand where a good ambush point has been chosen. I have been told that getting closer than 30 yards to a caribou is very difficult and that practice at 40 yards is a good idea for the year prior to hunting them. Also I have heard that stalking highly pressured mule deer in the West 35 yards is your likely closest shot. Other game in the mountains is likely to be longer than spitting distance. So close is relative. Is Bowhunting a sport? Yes by an earlier times definition of sport. As hunting does involve an adversarial relationship it means a techinical definition of sports.
WOW..I cant believe that killing an animal...taking an animals life for food would be considered a SPORT by some...I just cant fathom this...it really is no wonder some would want to ban hunting when some would veiw it as a sport...sad to me
I have to say that the "thrill" of trad. hunting is getting close. I've hunted big game with scoped, high powered rifles, etc. Nothing matches being close enough to see their eye lashes! I "love" the game we hunt...sorry, I just do. I also love the skills involved in gettin' close....We've lost so much of that in our "civilization". So, for me, the real pay off of trad. hunting is getting close. Having said that, 20 yards is a long shot for me. :)
Some of you guys sort of shake my faith in the "spirit/ethics" of trad. hunting. As far as I'm concerned; when you drop the string, there should be no doubt in your mind that the shot will go where you intend. PERIOD! Having said that, I understand that things can go wrong. But; It is your responsibility to do all that you can to make it right. Guessing/hoping about a shot at 40-50 yards is irresponsible in my not so humble opinion. If you can hit a pie plate near the center at that range; then go for it...you're a better shot than I am. If you can't, put your ego and all the stories you've read about in your pocket and get real.
I have seen no one promote the idea of shooting at game any farther then what their recovery rate would verify as being a high % shot. Am I missing something?
Steve
Yes, Steve you're missing something. No disrespect meant. We're not talking about percentages here...we're talking about killing something (that most of us respect and treasure). Therefore I think that we should be thinking in terms of certainties, at least as far as we can manage. Not percentages...because, at the end of the day if an animal dies slowly and painfully due to our negligence we've been disrespectful.
I dont believe a sport can stir the soul like bow hunting. I dont know much about the popular names of trad hunting Bear,Pope,Young etc... I would bet you would be hard pressed to find their lost game stats or wounding rates. Not downing these guys at all. Those were diffrent times and diffrent ways. I believe I can find any paunch shot deer I hit and have done so. That doesnt mean Im gonna let one fly if thats the only shot I have either. The only thing we can do is police ourselves, were the ones that have to live with our actions.
Yup, rg176nc, I'd go along with most of that. :D
A Sport is an athletic contest, between 2 or more WILLING individuals, or teams, with Rules to play by, and penalties for not playing by the rules, and a score is kept, and one side Wins, the other Loses..Hunting is not a Sport, it is either a Hobby, or a means to collect something to eat..How many animals are a WILLING participant in hunting?...Target Archery is a Sport, Bowhunting is not..I do agree that for most folks, Bowhunting is also a Lifestyle, and a mindset..As it should be, in My opinion..Substanance "Hunting" isnt the norm today, and so, the term "Sport Hunting" is used...As for whats close range, or not, thats up to the individual...I find it odd that todays Trad bowhunters look up to the pioneers of bowhunting, and the way that they did things, and yet today someone that shoots a deer at 40 yards is chastised for taking that long of a shot..Hill, ben pearson, Fred Bear, Pope, Young, and a host of others killed game at 40+ yards, and they are "OUR" Hero's in this hobby/lifestyle..I have heard of archers shooting at groundhogs at over 50 yards, and nobody says anything, but shoot a deer at 50 yards, and your a slob hunter, or worse..Why??..is a deer more special than a groundhog, or a rabbit?..To each His/Her own to make Their own decisions, and shoot within Their own individual limitations..Mine is around 20 yards, becuase I'm not a good shot..I know Trad archers that could easily make clean kills past 35 yards..Take Care...Harperman
Oh man!...I'm outta here. Best Wishes to all.
Having been a trad hunter for over 50 years I am in agreement with Harpman. I do not appreciate anyone imposing their self imposed limitations on what others can do. I have to live with the decisions I make and how I percieve nature may not be how you percieve nature. One thing I know is that when it comes to bowhunting there is no such thing as a sure thing and if you wish to insist on the sure thing then just get a gun. I mean that. The greatest thing about bowhunting is the difficulty factor. I have shot a cow elk from 6 feet and She dropped and the arrow hit her 12 inches from where I was aiming.; I have shot a buck at 45 yards and hit him center of lungs just where I was aiming. This stuff about being close being the entire key to total success is garbage to any one that has real hunting experience. They know better. I had a bull elk buck like a horse spin and go over an arrow from 10 yards. He did it so fast I thought I double lunged him. I have had many animals beyond 20 yards take no notice of the string at all. I'm not posting what I am saying to be contentious . Its my experience. I have killed deer in the hundreds and over thirty elk plus bear cats and about every thing in N America but sheep and goats with a bow. Again not bragging but I do have many experiences over many years of hunting to draw from. When I read these threads sometimes I laugh and sometimes it just downright upsets me a little. Not much but a little. Especially when someone with an opposing opinion has to do the little I'm out of here thing just because someone else does not entirely agree with their imposition. Keep them sharp, heavy, and hit what you are aiming at if you can. Sometimes trees interfere. Branches grow instantly, I have arrowheads I go visit that are buried so deep I cannot pull them. I have a 6 blade wasp that is at least 10 inches in a tree after 30 years of growth. Almost every year I go back and remember the day that Bull elk jumped that and wonder , Howwwwwwwwwwwwww
Happy New Year , Steve
Nice post Sixby
Like Sixby said - there are no certainties ever!
It is about percentages because there are few that recover 100% of the animals they shoot AT.
And I would bet of the number that have a 100% rate, many have taken but a few shots. The best hunters are the ones that recover the game they shoot at - and they are not always the ones that shoot the closet distances.
Good post Sixby.
Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by slow walker:
Yes, Steve you're missing something. No disrespect meant. We're not talking about percentages here...we're talking about killing something (that most of us respect and treasure). Therefore I think that we should be thinking in terms of certainties, at least as far as we can manage. Not percentages...because, at the end of the day if an animal dies slowly and painfully due to our negligence we've been disrespectful.
My slogan on my bows is GET CLOSE. If you are not mano a mano with the game you are hunting then IMO that is wrong. Hence the challenge. If the animal you are hunting does not the have the opportunity to hear you, see you or smell you than you are not close enough. You just out smart him to make sure he doesn't but you must do it while being close. I kind like to think I am like a cougar who has to be very smart in order to pounce on his game to make the kill and he can't do that unless he is close. I know a friend that can hit a deer at 50 yds with his compound. As great as that may sound I told my friend that IMO tha is not what the archery sport is all about. It about getting close and given the game the opportunity to detect you however, you just got to be smarter. That what it is all about. The question in the poll, "Is Bowhunting A Sport" of course it is. The only other option would be that you bowhunting to survive like the native americans did. We do not hunt for survival. We only do it as a sport.
If you are eating it, is that not survival? No matter if you have to or not?
Horatio IMO it is only survival if that is the only choice you have and there is no other option and if you don't do it you or your family would perish. Other wise you go buy some food at your grocery store.
My opinion is that bowhunting is a sport that is so much fun that it really doesnt matter if you actually get to kill something. I picked 15 yards only because 20 wasnt an option, back when I shot a bow with training wheels I didnt have a problem with shooting a little farther but I still didnt like to shoot past 30 yards but so far my stickbow expertise only allows me to shoot to 15 to 20 yards but that is what makes it so much fun.
Great post Sixby....I agree completely. As you, I've had deer completely foul a shot at close range - like turn inside out at 8 feet. That is far less than the typically stated 20yds. I've shot animals further than 20 yds. and seen them not even blink. Close range does not guarantee a good shot. Nothing is a sure thing in bowhunting. Take the shots that you feel are high percentage based on your experience, the animal's body language, and in your range of expertise. No one else can or should dictate the situation to you - there are not there, do not see the circumstances, and do not have to live with the consequences.
IMO bowhunting is not a sport, it is a way of life.
QuoteOriginally posted by -Achilles-:
WOW..I cant believe that killing an animal...taking an animals life for food would be considered a SPORT by some...I just cant fathom this...it really is no wonder some would want to ban hunting when some would veiw it as a sport...sad to me
You know something? Its just these kind of statements that attract anti-hunters, and EXACTLY what they use for ammunition to support their cause......
HELLO!!!!! OUT THERE!!!!! It's 2008....Hunting became a sport many, many, many years ago when the necessity of hunting to feed your family was replaced by the meat markets and grocery stores..... Wake up there and smell the coffee here....PLEASE..... :coffee: :coffee: :coffee:
There is a lot of really good stuff on this thread about personal limitations, being conscientious, and of course that big mysterious word, laced with ambiguous over tones; "Ethics".....
It IS a sport....that is a given in this day and age....How this sport of ours is viewed in the public eye will determine the future rules,regulations, and laws governing this sport.
We all have a responsibility to everyone one else who loves this sport, to be conscientious about our actions in the field, as well as what we say on line in the public eye.
This isn't "Sad" my friend....It's "Reality"....
Happy New Year! Kirk
Would you stop bowhunting if the "sport" was made illegal ?
...I wouldn't .
I couldn't answer the first question because "close" is too subjective a term. I was once told that anything much past 10 yards is gun range, so what one person considers "close" may be another person's "Hail Mary".
With respect to is bowhunting a sport? I know it's a matter of symantics, but to me the word sport implies competition. And I'm certainly not out there to compete -- not with other hunters, nor with the animals I pursue.
But isn't it competition??
Aren't you competing to get within range of an animal??
Aren't you competing to beat that animals senses to be able to take a shot??
Aren't you competing with the great outdoors to read the sign,evaluate the situation,and decide where to place a stand??
Aren't you competing with yourself to overcome the adrenaline rush at that one moment to make that shot??
I think bowhunting is the ultimate competition.....
QuoteOriginally posted by varmint:
But isn't it competition??
Not to me.
QuoteAren't you competing to get within range of an animal??
Aren't you competing to beat that animals senses to be able to take a shot??
No. When I shoot competitive archery, I learn the rules and use whatever advantage I can within those rules. That's competition to me.
I don't view hunting the same way. Otherwise, I'd grab my Ruger 10/22 instead of a recurve for squirrels, and my beagle and Remington 1187 for rabbits. For big game I'd borrow my friends 7mm magnum. Afterall, I wouldn't go to a golf tournament with a croquet mallet.
Guess we'll have to differ on that then.To me it's the greatest competition there is..................the competition with MYSELF.Trying to do everything right,get everything right,make all the right moves,outsmart the quarry to get within range,and then make that shot..............to me,that's competition.Just because I'm not keeping score,or on a team,or trying to win a tournament,doesn't mean I'm not competing.I'm competing with myself to be the very best that I can be with the equipment I have chosen to use.
Just a small point. 15 yards is < 55 :knothead: :) ...Van
OK guys...if you don't think bow hunting is a sport.....You all have to at least admit that is a God given right we have, that is governed by rules & regulations which we must follow to be allowed to participate in legally.
And if it isn't competitive to a certain extent....What's all this Pope & Young stuff all about? and "MY buck had bigger horns than yours did stuff"? It IS a Sport to many folks....What would Pope & Young themselves call bowhunting, if not a sport?
I know that their are many hunters out their that this is not a sport at all personally....but actually a wonderful privilege we have being able to harvest our own meat legally.....I tend to lean that way myself.... These same folks honor and respect the laws of the land, as we should.
But even so....you gotta admit we are giving the animals a "Sporting Chance" by using traditional archery equipment and challenging ourselves to see how close we can get in pursuit.....Are we not?
So.....Archery is a Sport....that's a given...
And hunting is a privlige that can be taken away if the rules of engagement are not followed, or the powers that be, decide it's no longer necessary....
So what does that make "Archery Hunting"?
A Sport in the public eye in which our public immage will determine the future of continued lawfull participation, or granted privlage.
I rest my case.....
But don't get me wrong here....the day they outlaw guns & archery equipment, is the day i'll become an outlaw.....I'm sorry....But that's one constitutional, & God given right i wont give up....Period
Nuff Said
Kirk...I stand by my post...I guess im different...I dont hang animals heads on my walls and call them trophies and I wouldnt enter a animals in the pope and young no matter how big it was..."that is a God given right we have, that is governed by rules & regulations which we must follow to be allowed to participate in legally"...I agree its a God given right...I do not agree that it is a privlige...I believe that if we think it is a privlige and not a right then weve already lost...I personaly look at it as a freedom of religion...I believe in God and the bible says to kill and eat and is part of my freedom of relgion...on top of that theres no way I could fault a poor man for hunting for food :campfire:
Whew! I didn't intend to post again, but need to. I see a lot of stuff in almost all of your posts that I totally agree with. The debate over whether trad. bow hunting is a sport or not is, in my opinion, superfluous. My comments were aimed at the relationship between the predator (that's us) and the prey. Most predators kill any way they can and often very cruelly.(because they're killing to live) We, on the other hand, are the only predator who have "judgement and compassion" hopefully, and the ability to "understand" our relationship to our prey. Therefore, we have, in my opinion, the responsibility to exercise that judgement. I've had the thrill and priviledge to hunt with some very fine trad. guys. Most recently at the TX Sweat 05. When I shot a big boar hog directly between the eyes (only because I thought he was about to come for me and I had no other shot) CK and his dad helped me look for him by flashlight for an hour or more. I looked the next morning for a couple of hours and never found arrow, blood....nothing. That's the only animal I've ever shot with a bow and not recovered; and I still hope the old bastard is OK. So...all I'm saying is that we (humans) need to be respectful of the game we hunt. I again want to say that I meant no disrespect to anyone in my comments. You all, collectively, are one of the greatest group of guys & gals I know of. Best Wishes.
Achilles,
When I attended my hunter safety classes here in NJ, we were told that hunting is NOT A RIGHT but a PRIVLIGE because at any time your privlige can be taken away for whatever reason like being caught breaking the rules. I understand this but I don't nessarily agree with it being a privilege. But knowing how flakey the politicians are here in my state I do appreciate my opportunity to choose to hunt and put food on my dinner table that I didn't have to stand in line at store for. I'll keep doing so intill the day the uneducated politicians ban all hunting in NJ.
varmint, I compete against myself and see if I can drink more beers tonite than last nite, I guess that's a sport too than. :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
Its man against animal. In the animal's environment.You study the opponent.You read, You study patterns You get in shape by practicing, alot. You go out and get your equipment,high performance bows, high tech arrows, top of the line boots, clothes, binos, trail cams,4 wheelers,gps, etc..If you take an animal you feel the exhiliration of victory.You have beaten the opponent. If you don't, you stop at Mc Donalds for a burger. Ain't none of us goin' hungry.
duuh!
QuoteOriginally posted by NorthShoreLB:
varmint, I compete against myself and see if I can drink more beers tonite than last nite, I guess that's a sport too than. :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
You are competing with yourself as you describe it,so I guess drinking beer is a sport too...........at least for you,I'm a non-drinker. :D :D
I bowhunting ain't a sport, then, for me, there is only one other possible description: It is a way of life!
I consider it a sport, but I acknowledge that I cannot live without it. When I can no longer bowhunt or fly fish, then it is time for the .45 caliber pill...
Too Short
ttt