Just wondering if they are worth the extra money compared to a "normal" shaft like an Easton Axis? Would you cough up the extra cash?
Yes, just like certain bows!
:bigsmyl:
Matabele,
I'm still testing, but right now, the answer would have to be "yes" from me. I'm looking for "bigger, badder, heavier" in an arrow shaft, as I am not happy with what I've been shooting. I am testing two new shafts - I ordered a dozen AD Trad Lite shafts, and (happily) found that Grizzly Stik offers "test kits", so I ordered two shafts from them to test. Ed at Alaskan Archery Supply is one of the most friendly people I've spoken to over the phone, and he is very proud of what he offers in the Grizzly Stik line. Call him - I'm sure he would be happy to speak with you, answer your questions, and set you up properly. I'm shooting a 47lb recurve bow (Chek-Mate Hunter), and so far, nothing hits the target quite like a Grizzly Stik Sitka - these things are HEAVY, and bad to the bone so far. I've been very impressed, and plan to order a dozen more after these tests are done. The AD shafts are nice too, and I'm torn between the two of them right now. I really like the finish on the AD's (matte grey) compared to the shinier finish on the Grizzly Stiks, but nothing I've ever shot hits quite as hard as a Grizzly Stik.
All the best,
Glenn
Thanks for your input Glenn and Tom!
I have not shot them alot myself,but during the late season.One of my hunting buddy's was shooting the Grizzlysticks (not sure which one's but super heavy weights) from a 69# Bear Static tip Grizzly recurve.No kills were made on the trip.But Big Mike did miss a doe and stuck the Grizzlystick into one of those scrub oak or white oak maybe (native to Northeast Washington State) but for sure hard wood.It trashed the blank river weasel woodsman like you would not believe she was hammerd.It bent the ferrule as well as all 3 blades.But the Grizzlystick was unscaved,Big Mike unscrewed that one,left it in the oak and screwed in a new head and was on his way.I shot the same tree with a wood shaft and bear razorhead,which the head was fine.But the woodie was a goner.Them Grizzlysticks are for sure tough as nails at least.The extra weight was an added plus.Pretty plain to see in the old oak....bd PS weasel woodsman is only a joke and I love them guy's at 3r's and mean no disrespect to them or there fine broadhead.Just wanted to note the weight of the Grizzlystick may have been to much for the Wensel to absorb.
I sure do like my Griz stiks! They fly beautifully---I think the tapered design makes them very easy to tune through a wide range of bow weights. And they hit like a sledgehammer even with field points. I'm shooting my Sitkas through a 54# self/flatbow.
(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m316/SeaSpectre/gila1.jpg)
Never shot one they're too heavy for my liking. A guy did come to the bar at our archery club and put a doz and a 1/2 on the bar and walked away saying, "Anyone who wants these can have "em." The guy was related to the big accomplishment mentioned in the last TBM.
Bowmania
Cajuntec, have you spun the shafts on a straightner to test how straight they are?? ALL of the carbon shafts i have tested (easton,black hawk,gold tips) are all very crooked.This is the main reason i hve stayed away from ALL carbon shafts.The FMJ made from Easton were ok,as are the ACC's but until they can make a heavy,all carbon shaft that has a straightness tolerence of less than .0015(like eastons Super slam series of aluminum shafts) i will stick with aluminum. Bill
no they really don't...I shoot heavy bows between 80 and 100#, so I thought the safaris could be a good choice for me...but:
- the nock's insert cone doesn't perfectly fit the nock: so the nocks burst quickly and I ruined a marvelous 100# LB cause of that with a brand new nock which had exploded after a 30 of releases... :mad:
- the broadhead's insert doesn't completly cover all the safari shaft's external diameter...so this part of the shaft is not armoured and becomes fragile when you shoot in the fields
- the spine differences between each shaft are huge (some safaris are 200# spined (0.130 deflection)) and some of them are too stiff to be shoot by 100# bows !!!
- the external cover of the shaft doesn't resist to the arrow contacts' when you shoot too tight and become quickly fissored...during a bare shaft tuning period I ruined 2 shafts cause of that
- they are not versatile at all: they need special inserts (you cannot use the 100gr brass inserts) and nocks (you cannot use illuminated nocks); they can't be fulfilled to get more weight (they don't accept weight tubes cause of the conic internal diameter)
for all of that I definetly let down these highly priced shafts and wouldn't use them again for nothing in the world...I quickly change them for the GT big game 100 + and got the perfect 900gr + arrow that I needed...for half price, they have all the advantages that the safari doesn't have for equal hardness and solidity with a smaller external diameter what is better for an increased penetration...
the safari shafts are the worst I have used
To me they were not. But keep in mind, that I love to take practice shots that test my limits. Misses do happen. I had a hard time taking these types of shots with the GrizzlyStiks. I also have a hard time hunting with arrows that I do not practice with. I also didn't care for the tolerences on the inserts.
have Sitkas and Alaskans. I think they are perfect for the traditional non center-shot bow. I love them and I never had any of the problems mentioned above. I abuse the h... out of them, not a scratch.
Thanks for the info all,
Foudarme can I ask when you bought those shafts that you had problems with? I stand to be corrected here but Ive heard that Grizzlystiks have undergone several modifications over time and are a lot better now than what they were, in terms of spine/weight consistency and durability etc. Do you think you got an "earlier" batch?
Seems the jury is still out on these!
I have bought them 8 monthes ago at alaskan bowhunting supply....
in my experience, i'd have to say no...
ed is a super nice guy and his customer service is excellent tho
i have some of the sitkas and i cant get them to fly good out of any of my recurves or longbows. Todd
I have never shot them personally, but I saw one take a cedar tree sideways after it deflected at the muzzy. That arrow didnt even flinch...I was impressed.
It depends on the person I guess. They are tough but seemed inconsistent in spine and weight. Ya have to find the stiff side as well as they are layered and one wall is a bit thicker at least in the ones I had. Ya can see it, if ya look down inside the shaft. They were not for me but you may love them. A good tapered carbon is the AD Trads and Trad-lites, I experimented with them a while back and have some again and I am liking them. Let us know how ya make out!! Shawn
Thanks all, will do Shawn! Going to look into those AD Trads tho now you told me:)
IMO...No. I was expecting much better durability and penetration than what I got out of my set-up. Both my friend and I used them on elk and we both only got about 18" of penetration. I thought for sure I would blow through the chest cavity of where I hit my elk, which was through the heart and both lungs. I used the heavy Safari's out of my 69lbs. @ 29" BW.
The next year I switched to Easton Axis arrows and got complete pass throughs like a hot knife through butter and footed the front of those skinny shafts with a 1" piece of aluminum. I believe I have found my ultimate arrow that's fast, extremely durable and penetrates like crazy.
Ray ;)
Thats interesting Black Wolf, what broadhead were you using out of curiosity?
Are the Grizzlystiks larger in diameter than the broadhead ferrule generally? And the AD Trads are they larger in diameter?
The Alaskans are incredibly tough and heavy. The Sitkas weren't anywhere as near as durable in my experience with them. The ADs are very good arrows, not as tough as the Alaskans but much more durable than the Sitkas and very easy to tune.
Ok Guys...........
I thought I would add my experience with these shafts on this thread as it seems like my experience is the opposite of what some are writing and talking about.
First, I have no idea where the idea of the shaft being larger than the insert comes from? I shoot these shafts almost exclusively and have both Safari's and also Alaskan's. My Safari shafts weigh in around 950 grains at 31.5" my Alaskans are around 700 at the same length.
I also will add that I shoot heavy bows being the lightest bow on my rack is 75lbs at 28". One thing I am seeing on here is the issues with the Safari shafts. These shafts are not light or lack spine stiffness. I had an issue with an 82lb Silvertip shooting these arrows until I added some additional weight up front. Bottom-line though is these arrows still teeter on being to stiff and heavy for an honest 82lb bow with a full 28" draw. The point I am making is the fact that these arrows will require a very heavy draw weight bow in order to fly right and be effective. Not the thinking of let's just jack up our arrow weight and lob arrows out of bows that were not designed to use shafts of that weight. The stiffness of these shafts is a factor above and beyond the physical weight.
I actually can shoot Alaskans out of bows running from 75lbs to 82lbs at 31.5" and a 175 grain head giving me a finished arrow of around 700 Grains keeping me above 8 Grains per pound. These arrows scream and fly like darts. And as far as penetration is concerned that issue is null and void. So this is the go to arrow for me in regards to all these bows in that weight range. I don't need the Safaris although they will work, the Alaskans provide a substantial jump in performance and lets face it a 700 grain arrow coming out of a 82lb bow that is well over the 200 ft per second mark is not going to have penetration issues.
Without getting off track here "I" think a lot of the issues would be solved if you stepped down a notch in arrow choice. In other words drop from the Safari to the Alaskans etc..................
The nocks were also mentioned and Ed has now converted the Safaris to have press in nocks like the other arrows in his line up have. I had some nocks break and called Ed and 2 days later went to the mailbox to find an envelope filled with nocks of various colors. Had I requested him to change my Safaris out for the new slip in nock system I am betting he would have done it without a second thought.
The quality of these arrows are second to none also. Although I will tell you I don't look down the inside of my arrows and I also never check them for spine variances or any of the other stuff that so many guys feel compelled to do. I put them together to arrive at a certain weight that I am looking for in regards to the bow I am shooting, put my glove on and go out to my range and shoot them.
And when they fly perfect like these arrows do and hit my bag target like a direct hit from Mike Tyson in his day and also stack on top of each other in the center ring at distances out to 30 yards the product is good enough for me. Am I an exceptional shot? ...........No, am I a pretty good shot.........Yes. But more importantly I am a hunter that knows these arrows will do what it is that I go to my stand to do. And chances are if you miss or hit and obstacle this shaft will live to be shot another day.
So in closing my take on these shafts are they are worth the extra money and they do live up top to their billing. There are lots of shafts out there just like there are lots of bows. They make trucks in different colors also for the same reason.
I am no way affiliated with Ed or his company either and I pay for all my arrows and supply's from him. Which I do gladly as I know the service does not end with my purchase and the quality and performance is flat out awesome.
Regards
Tim Schoenborn
Amen.
Shawn Leonard,
I found your post very interesting, so I pulled out my Grizzly Stiks and checked to see if what you said about the shaft was accurate with mine. Mine do not show the variation that you encountered with yours. However, the AD Trad-Lite shafts that I just bought are sort of odd in the fact that you can actually see the line twisting around the shaft - like you can tell where the fibers were wrapped around a mandrel or something to that effect. It hasn't hurt anything, and doesn't bother me, but while we were pointing out the differences, I thought I'd mention that.
All the best,
Glenn
QuoteOriginally posted by Tim Schoenborn:
Ok Guys...........
First, I have no idea where the idea of the shaft being larger than the insert comes from?
just from what I have under my eyes...
QuoteOriginally posted by Tim Schoenborn:
Ok Guys...........
These shafts are not light or lack spine stiffness...
effectivily at 0.130 of deflection on my ACE spine tester it gives a 200# spine !
QuoteOriginally posted by Tim Schoenborn:
The nocks were also mentioned and Ed has now converted the Safaris to have press in nocks like the other arrows in his line up have. I had some nocks break and called Ed and 2 days later went to the mailbox to find an envelope filled with nocks of various colors. Had I requested him to change my Safaris out for the new slip in nock system I am betting he would have done it without a second thought.
yes I am quite happy to learn that but me I lost in june of this year a 100# lb cause of that...I would have prefer that it has never occured...and a pack of offered nocks would have change nothing to the fact that this bow costed 1500 euros...
QuoteOriginally posted by foudarme:
QuoteOriginally posted by Tim Schoenborn:
Ok Guys...........
First, I have no idea where the idea of the shaft being larger than the insert comes from?
just from what I have under my eyes... [/b]
So call or write Ed and he will fix it.
I am sorry, but I can't see how Ed would let these shafts leave his shop like that. And in the event they did and it was a mistake he would resolve the issue and make it right.
Making comments like this on a public forum without talking to Ed first is beyond my way of thinking also. Everyone makes a mistake now and then but I can assure you Ed will make it right. Unless there is more to the story than what we are reading here????????
Tim Schoenborn
Can anyone tell me how many grains per inch the Sitka and Alaskan shafts are?
Unfortunately in any manufacturing process there will be some variation in product. Where some of us have had great experiences with Griz Stiks, some others have had bad ones. I reckon its the same as some people having rough times with GT and with various others.
I am still with Tim here, the Griz stiks fly wonderfully and hit like a hammer. The taper design of these wonderful shafts contributes to both the flight characteristics and the impact energy.
If it flies good and hits hard, why change?
All this and I'm a woody fan.
so it's true... well tuned they fly great...but the others too...
I will make you some pictures in a few days when I will be back from hollydays, cause according to what I can read between the lines of Mr Schoenborn it seems that this sir accuses me to be a liar...
so Mr Schoenborn be a littlebit more respectful with me... I am not a six days old rabbit and in my country you could be conduce in front of a judge for what you let hearing about me...so try to speak like a gentleman it will be better for your own credibility...if you want that the others trust in your own experiments begin by trust them in their one..
Foudarme:
Easy my Brother of the bow. We're just sharing experiences here. No one is right or wrong- these are all just opinions...
Are the ones at 3RiversArchery.com the newer type that are able to take the standard nocks?
QuoteOriginally posted by Matabele:
Thats interesting Black Wolf, what broadhead were you using out of curiosity?
Are the Grizzlystiks larger in diameter than the broadhead ferrule generally? And the AD Trads are they larger in diameter?
I made a mistake in my initial post...I wasn't using Safaris...I was using the Alaskans at around 720g. which included a sharp 150g. G5 Shkote broadhead.
The Alaskans weren't any larger in diameter than the broadhead ferrule if I remember correctly. I believe they were both around 11/32".
The bull was shot at about 15yrds and I honestly believe the broadhead had more to do with the lack of penetration than the Alaskans did...yet I still was expecting more penetrtion than what I got since increasing my total arrow weight by nearly 100g.
I always bareshaft, paper tune and broadhead tune my arrows...so I know beyond a shadow of any doubt...they are tuned to the best of my ability for increased penetration and accuracy.
I don't know anything about the AD arrows.
Where I live in Colorado, there are alot of rocks and I need a durable arrow when I go stump shooting or rabbit hunting and was expecting more from the big carbons than what I personally experienced. The Alaskans would break near the tips as often as my old 2419 aluminum arrows would bend or mushroom. It wasn't until I tried the skinny Axis arrows and FOOTED them with aluminum did I find a nearly indestructable arrow.
What I have personally found out...is that a light, fast, higher FOC, well-tuned skinny arrow can often out penetrate a heavier, slower, lower FOC, well-tuned thicker arrow from the same bow.
Ray ;)
QuoteOriginally posted by foudarme:
so it's true... well tuned they fly great...but the others too...
I will make you some pictures in a few days when I will be back from hollydays, cause according to what I can read between the lines of Mr Schoenborn it seems that this sir accuses me to be a liar...
so Mr Schoenborn be a littlebit more respectful with me... I am not a six days old rabbit and in my country you could be conduce in front of a judge for what you let hearing about me...so try to speak like a gentleman it will be better for your own credibility...if you want that the others trust in your own experiments begin by trust them in their one..
Là foudarme facile. M. Schoenborn ne vous accuse jamais d'être un menteur. J'ai retourné et ai relu ses poteaux. Si vous voulez que M. Schoenborn soit plus respectueux de vous, alors vous devriez faire la même chose pour lui, et d'autres, sur cet emplacement, car je trop AM commençant à prendre l'offense à votre tonalité. M. Schoenborn vous a donné un itinéraire parfaitement bon pour prendre - entrer en contact avec l'ED à l'approvisionnement d'Alaska de Bowhunting. Pourquoi vous démuni fait ainsi, ou dit que vous avez fait ainsi êtes laissé à la spéculation, en tant que vous démuni dit que vous avez. Au lieu de cela, vous continuez juste votre rant au sujet de la façon dont vous mécontent soyez avec la flèche, et continuez à amener vos 100 # arc. Je suis vraiment désolé pour votre perte d'un arc, mais pour continuer les attaques rant et personnelles sur M. Schoenborn ne sont pas nécessaires, ni sont les menaces de ce que ses actions "pourraient" lui obtenir condamné à dans "votre pays". Ce genre d'entretien n'est pas justifié dans un si grand endroit de ce type. Je n'essaye pas de vous offenser, satisfais ainsi ne le prends pas que manière. Mais vous obtenez avez offensé par les commentaires que VOUS prenez hors du contexte. Tout le meilleur, Glenn
J'espère que ce Français est lisible. Je l'ai changé d'anglais-français dans les espoirs qu'il serait plus facile de lire pour vous, et sois plus amical.
For anyone wondering - I translated this the best that I could (with the site Babel Fish) to French for the gentleman I was addressing. The last section reads:
I hope that this French is readable. I changed it from English to French in the hopes that it would be easier to read for you, and be more friendly.
QuoteOriginally posted by Otto:
Can anyone tell me how many grains per inch the Sitka and Alaskan shafts are?
Otto,
I couldn't tell you on the Alaskan's, but I ordered a Sitka test kit recently, and the two Sitka shafts I have weigh 344 and 347 grains. With the shaft being 32 1/16" long, that equates to 10.73 and 10.82 GPI on the ones that I have. When you put the nocks on them, it is supposed to make a 32 1/2" arrow from throat of nock to back of point. Mine measure a bit over that - 32 9/16" - probably due to that extra 1/16" of the shaft length. They come with 12 grain nocks, and 62 grain brass inserts, making the bare, full length shafts weigh in at an average of approximately 420 grains, before even adding a tip.
All the best,
Glenn
"Because of GrizzlyStiks tapered technology design, arrows cannot be weighed by the standard grains-per-inch.As the arrow tapers, the grains by inch steadily decline toward the nock end. For that reason, we measure the total finished weight of GrizzlyStik tapered arrows."
The above quote was copied directing from the ABS website. Because these shafts are tapered, there is no relieable method to determine grains per inch. With these shafts - and I suppose any other tapered shafting material- dividing the overall weight by the overall length will not result in an accurate gpi number.
Just a heads-up in case in matters to you...
Labs4me,
Thanks for setting me straight. I knew that, and totally forgot it - been shooting standard parallel carbons all my life, so that's a tough one to get used to. Thanks!
All the best,
Glenn
Glenn,how straight have you found them to be ?? Like i said before alot of the carbon shafts i have used are not made anywhere close to the +/- straightness tolerence of aluminum shafts. Bill
I felt compelled to make Ed aware of this post last night as he is a sponser on this site. He tried to log in last night and post a reply but was having log in issues. So this morning he called me and asked if I would post this on his behalf....................
Ed's Reply...............
Greetings from Alaska. My name is Ed Schlief, president of Alaska Bowhunting Supply and the designer of the GrizzlyStik. It is rare that I ever get involved writing on these chat room threads because I really don't have time or inclination to sit in front of a computer after a long day in my office. I spend way too much time sitting on my butt processing orders and doing the day to day business. When I have free time, I'd rather be outside, hunting, fishing or just training my dog.
Anyway, it was brought to my attention that I had better read what was going on concerning comments about my GrizzlyStiks. The last time I wrote on a chat room was about 6 years ago when some guy from PA insisted on telling folks on the Leather Wall that I was making my GrizzlyStik shafts out of "scrap" pieces of St Croix fishing rod blanks...if you can believe that! For some reason, this guy wouldn't quit, so I was forced to confront his lies on internet public forum. He went away but it was not fun.
First of all, I am truly sorry to hear that the gentleman from France is displeased with my GrizzlyStik's. However, it was never brought to my attention that there was any problem with my arrow shafts. Had he written or called, I would have solved his problem before he damaged his bow. I pride myself on delivering the best product and customer service possible.
I understand that the GrizzlyStik Safari is not for every bowhunter because they are heavy, stiff and the toughest arrow shaft that the engineers know how to build. They certainly are not indestructible but as far as I know, the only big game animal that has not been harvested is the African rhino. The list includes elephant, hippo, cat's, giraffe, countless Cape and Asiatic buffalo and most all North American big game. But my most notable customer is a veterinarian from KY who called to ordered 6 more Alaskan from me this fall. During our conversation, he casually mentioned that he has now taken over 15 whitetails...on a single Alaskan arrow.
I will now address the complaints from the gentleman from France. BTW, I have many long time European customers (several have become personal friends) who have been hunting with my shafts for years.
1. "the nock's insert cone doesn't perfectly fit the nock: so the nocks burst quickly and I ruined a marvelous 100# LB cause of that with a brand new nock which had exploded after a 30 of releases "
In the past 8 years, I have never heard of a nock fracturing because it was correctly shot out of a bow. One of my customers from TX shoots the Safari out a 125# custom longbow with no problems. The nocks are standard Marco nocks made in the USA. If I could find a better nock, I would offer it. There are two probable reasons for the nocks cracking. The first could simply be the bow string thickness. At 100#'s, the bow string and serving could be too thick for the nock grove, causing the nock ears to stretch and crack. The second and most likely cause is the impact shock imparted upon the nock when the arrow hits a solid target, i.e. tree stump. The GrizzlyStik, because of its tapered design, quickly straightens from the deceleration paradox. It does not flex upon impact like parallel shafts. Any of the readers who shoot the Safari out of heavy bows have experienced nocks being fractured upon hitting hard targets. They are only plastic, the weakest part of the arrow. Prudence would dictate that when you shoot in the field and hit hard objects, you should always check the arrow for damage. Perhaps pounding 30 arrows while field shooting had something to do with the nock failure. Do you know what the striking force of a 900+ grain Safari shot out of a 100# bow is? The Safari is a primitive form of depleted uranium!
2. "they are not versatile at all: they need special inserts (you cannot use the 100gr brass inserts) and nocks (you cannot use illuminated nocks); they can't be fulfilled to get more weight (they don't accept weight tubes cause of the conic internal diameter"
The gentleman from France needs to understand that if you cannot shoot 12 ga. shot shells out of a 20 ga. shotgun, why would you expect to fit a 100 gr. Muzzy brass point insert into one of my GrizzlyStik shafts? My GrizzlyStik inserts are designed for the GrizzlyStik shafts. It's that simple. Luminocks don't fit GrizzlyStik's ...or wooden shafts for that matter.
3."they can't be fulfilled to get more weight , they don't accept weight tubes cause of the conic internal diameter"
The GrizzlyStik is not designed for weight tubes. The tubes are proven to be a poor idea. Read Dr. Ashby's reports on arrow penetration. They do nothing to improve EFoC, which is one of the single most important issues in penetration. However, I offer 20 and 50 grain internal weights that screw into the back end of the brass point adapter to increase arrow mass. That dramatically (30%+) improves penetration by increasing EFoC.
4. "some of them are too stiff to be shoot by 100# bows !!!"
Tuning arrows to a bow takes a degree of skill and knowledge. Classic longbows with heavy draw weights are the most difficult to tune. And not all bows, particularly longbows are equal. The major difference is the thickness in the riser. I would guess that the "100# bow" is probably is a Howard Hill style, straight limbed longbow that shoots off center by about ¼+". Experienced longbow archers know that you need softer spined arrows to bend around a thick riser. With a center shot bows, you can use a stiffer arrow. My web site explains that the Safari is designed for bows up to 100+ pounds. However, most of my customers draw much lighter weight that that. The average is 60# - 70#.
The last and most important point is simply this. I guarantee everything that I sell. But I can't solve a problem and fix it if I don't know that it's broken. Sorry that I got so windy but felt that I had to reply.
Cheers,
Ed Schlief
Alaska Bowhunting Supply
Well put Ed/Tim, I guess that maybe the rabbit was six days old?
Cajuntec,
Please don't think I was trying to call you out or anything like that. I just happened to remember a conversation that I had with Ed at ABS when he clarified the gpi issue with me. Like you, I am just used to dealing with strait shafts and either looking up or calculating gpi numbers. I figured you must have just forgot about the taper and didn't want anyone to make the same calculation mistake I did a year ago.
Labs4me,
Oh no my brother! I'm not thinking that at all! I'm thanking you for correcting my mistake, as I wouldn't want Otto or anyone else that read my post to follow bad info, which is what I was giving out, since I had completely forgot about the taper causing that weight variance throughout the shaft. I greatly appreciate your help and info. No offense taken at all, and I really do thank you for posting.
Tim Schoenborn,
Thanks for posting Ed's reply. The man really is a true class act from every dealing I've had with him. Always polite and helpful.
Ed,
If you get around to reading this - excellent reply! I know business owners sometimes are way too busy to reply on websites like this, and for you to take the time out of your busy day to address the concerns is really awesome. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - you're a true professional, and I for one, appreciate all you do.
BTW... Ed at Alaska Bowhunting Supply also sells more than just the Grizzly Stik shafts. I recently bought some Sealskin shelf material from him (AWESOME stuff), as well as beaver balls for the string, etc... First class business all the way!
All the best,
Glenn
QuoteOriginally posted by Footed Shaft:
Glenn,how straight have you found them to be ?? Like i said before alot of the carbon shafts i have used are not made anywhere close to the +/- straightness tolerence of aluminum shafts. Bill
Bill,
With the Grizzly Stiks, I can detect no noticable wobble on my spin tester, but I don't have any high tech tools to test the straightness - just my eye and the spin tester.
Speaking of carbons in general, I can say this though - I recently returned another brand of carbon shaft (regular parallel traditional finish carbons) to the manufacturer as 5 of them were wobbling worse than most woodies I've shot, and that truly shocked me. I'm talking a large enough variance to be readily noticable with the eye, not just something small.
I've found the straightest arrows I've ever owned to be aluminum, but they are also the quickest to bend... and stay bent. The BEST aluminum arrows I've ever owned were 2018's - Super Slams. Straightest, and some of the strongest, I've ever shot. I never did have a single one bent that I could tell on my spin tester. Unfortunately, Easton stopped making the Super Slam in the 2018 size... so I moved on.
Straightness is all relative to me though. I've shot "crooked" wood arrows that flew perfectly to where I was aiming, and I've seen people on this site and others shoot such things as rose shoots, etc... Those things don't even look close to straight... but somehow the archer gets them to fly. Then I've had carbons that looked completely straight, that flew crooked as can be. I can't explain it. I just have a pile marked "shooters" and a pile marked "next years tomato stakes". :biglaugh:
All the best,
Glenn
sorry sir not to have writen for saying how much I was disappointed by those shafts but it's easily comprehensive...I bought what was considered as the pinacle of the shafts and it has never be the case for me, so I let them down after 2 monthes of intensive tests and a bow ruined, what would you have wish me to do...that I ask to be refund? I have lost a bow that I loved it was sufficient for me, the story was ended, since I have found much more better elsewhere...but I think that I earned the right to write what I think of these shafts if someone ask to the users what they think about it...
So,I maintain what I had wrote:
- the nocks which have been sent to me doesn't fit perfectly the insert nock, there is maybe 2 mm between the end of the insert and the end of the nock's cone, it's a fact, I even tried to fulfilled them in adding more glue inside the nock...I will try to show this through pictures next week when I will be back at home..so if you think that there is no relation between this fact and my bow explosion it's your right, but I have shot thousands of arrows with this bow before and never get any nock explosion so there is obviously a tiny link between your nocks and what occured... More of that I have get 2 other nocks' explosion with 2 other bows with these nocks during my tests, what is the main reason why I stopped completely to use them. Before this in 15 years of archery I had get only one nock explosion, it's a curious "coincidence". The target I used during this tests is a u stuff bag fulfilled with old clothes, its a very soft target with great arrow retention capacity.
At last, the nock cracking has not occured at the lips level of the nocks but at the cone level...I am not certain to have keep them but if I have done it, I will post pics of them. The glue used is a bi composant glue with resine and strenghtener in 2 different tubes.
- I have tested these shafts with bare shaft tuning on 7 different bows: a 86#@28 french recurve, a 80#@28 silvertip; a 82#@ 28 silvertip; a 90#@28 french light RD LB; a 95#@28 BW MA silver anniversary; a 100@28 french light RD LB and a 79#@28 breed fox...they only fly well on the breed and the 86@28 french recurve...for all the others they were too stiff even with the heavier brass insert and a 250gr field point...so I spine tested them and understood when I found a 0.130 deflection on the weak point of a shaft, it's too a fact...it lacks just a little bit for they fly perfectly well on the silvertips, I think a 400gr broadhead would have maybe permit this...but I have no field points of that weight and I think not to be alone in this case...
I have too made a few shots (no bare shaft tuning, just a test) with them on my border Khan xp30 70#@28...too stiff again..
- the brass inserts that I have recieved are smallest than the arrow external diameter, that's equally a fact...I will post pics too.
- so I think that at the difference of all the other shafts that these shafts are not versatile...you have quite the right not to share this point of view, but a customer who wants to buy these shafts for the first time must to know that he could not put an illuminated nock on it, a wheight tube in it or use all the standard inserts on the market...for you it's normal cause these shafts are common in your country but in mine they are very unusual and I have never seen them before I have recieved them (as I didn't know that they need a special nock insert) so I think that it must be known before buying them...so you perfectly know that putting a weight tube can be asked for other purposes that increasing the penetration as, in my case, to get the sufficient weight (10gr/lb) to shoot an arrow enough heavy for protecting the bow ie 100lb = 1000gr arrow...it's difficult to get your extra weights when one live at the other side of the earth...so versatility is important.
- I maintain that the external finish doesn't resist as on the other shafts...that the first time of my life that I ruined arrow when they slide each on the others, I have never noticed it on all the carbon and alluminium shaft that I have used before (XX78-75: 2020, 2317, 2219, 2117,2018,2419, 2514, 2613; CE 6075; GT 3555, 5575, 7595) or since (GT BG 100+)... I shoot each days my 50 arrows since many years, I have owned more than 50 different bows and I keep a permanent collection of 30 bows, I make all my strings, so I think to know just a little bit about shooting, shafting and bare shaft tuning...
so for me I maintain that these safari shafts are the worst I have used, I will not make a desease for that but never use them anymore.
however happy new year to everybody, in my country it is 1h00 AM.
Can someone address my concern? Which is about them having a stiff side due to the way they are made. I was told I had to roll them on a flat surface and mark the point at which they laid on the table and this would give me the stiffest point and also the thickest. Is this correct or not? I may give them another go if I get more positive info. Shawn
roll them in your bathroom in soap water after having obstruct them at each side and you will find the stiff side bending towards the bottom
Shawn,
Mine do have a definite spine, just like a fishing rod blank would have. PLEASE do not take this as the comment that someone else made on another site that Ed had to address (see his response on page 3 to that comment). I am simply saying that they do seem to have a definite spine, and I tested the ones I have, just as I would do if I were building a custom fishing rod and was looking for the effective spine in order to line up the guides correctly. I put one end on a table, and hold the other end on the palm of my hand and bend the shaft slightly with my other hand in the middle while rolling the shaft on the tip that is on the table. You will feel the shaft "jump" to the spine. I am unsure how Grizzly Stiks are made, but I am assuming the fibers are somehow wrapped around a mandrel in order to make a tapered shaft. To the best of my knowledge, there is no getting around the "spine" that will occur. By spine, in this instance, I am refering to the "stiff side" that you mentioned. In fishing rod building, that is what I've always heard referered to as the "effective spine", and good rod builders always try to find it to line up the guides so that the rod won't twist sideways under pressure. That is why I always put the spine on top of the rod, so the rod bends away from it perfectly, and doesn't make the rod twist in my hands... but I digress... so back to the subject...
I seriously don't see a problem with that, as I just checked my Gold Tip Traditional 3555's and 5575's, and they do the same thing - they have a effective spine on them too.
One thing I have never tried is to see whether a carbon (any carbon) would bare shaft any differently if I turned the spine up,down,left or right. I may have to do a little bit of experimenting with this. Dang it! More testing! :D
Even with POC arrow shafts - I always turn the grain so that the lines are "pointed outward" only on the top of the shaft - never on the bottom. I hope that makes sense. If not, I'll post a picture of what I am talking about.
All the best,
Glenn
Sorry - hit reply instead of edit.
I think I may have just figured something else out that may be of interest to you all shooting Grizzly Stiks that may want to try a different nock setup:
The nock diameter, as I measure it, is a hair over .2155 by my calipers measurements.
Easton's G-Nock Uni-Bushings for the 1416 size aluminums should be .21555 if I'm calculating this right - 14/64 (outside diameter) = .21875, minus a wall thickness of 16/1000 x 2 = .0032.
Subtract the wall thickness from the arrows outside diameter to get the inside diameter of .21555
I've got tons of G-Nocks from other arrow projects, and I really like shooting them. I might just have to buy a pack of Eastons 1416 G-Nock Uni-Bushings and check this out.
Dont' take this the wrong way - I don't see anything wrong with the factory supplied nocks... but I like to tinker, and love the G-Nocks... so I think I'll try this out.
Just another option for those wanting a little something different.
All the best,
Glenn
Rolling them on a table did not show the stiff side so, I rolled them in my spine tester and; eh voila!
I was looking for a 650 grain arrow for my ACS CX and the Sitkas were too light and the Alaskans too heavy for my 48# bow. I'm a wood guy, and I decided to try carbon to see what all the hoopla' was about, so I found out and now I'm back to wood.
The customer service was great, the products were top notch; but it did not work for me-for you it might be a different story.
Last year I took the carbon plunge and had decent, though not exceptional results using heavy FOC Gold Tips with Wensel Woodsmans at the business end. In terms of DURABILITY, I can honestly say that I ended up destroying just as many GTs over the course of a year of shooting as I would normally have went through XX78 2216s. For the extra money, I had hoped they would have been more durable. They were not. End of story!
I am now considerring trying Carbon Express or Grizzly Safaris but, my teeny tiny brain is having a difficult time summarizing the various opinions expressed on this thread to arrive at a general consensus.
I have a two straight forward questions pertaining to the Safari:
1. Using a 125 grain Zwickey Eskimo glued to a 75, 100, or 125 grain steel adaptor, can I get the weight of a 29 1/4" Grizzly Safari up to 600 grains?
2. Is a Grizzly SAFARI any more (or less) DURABLE than any of the other more common, LESS EXPENSIVE carbon shafts (Gold Tips, Carbon Express, Beman MFX, etc.)? At $120 a dozen, which is about $40 more a dozen than the Gold Tips, I would expect these arrows to be considerably more durable.
See, I told you I have a teeny, tiny brain. In my post above, I meant SITKAS, not Safaris. Sorry for the confusion.
Monty what are the specs of the bow you plan on shooting these out of?
Tim
I still have a half dz or so of the original 50-80's from the pre-patent infringement days. Don't know about the newer models but my 50-80's definitely have a spine side like a fishing rod blank.
In my experience they are a bit stiff for the rated wt range and shoot much better for me in bows 55+. They are very tough and high quality shafts though. As to whether they're worth the money, I think it comes down to how much you're willing to spend on a shaft and how you use them. If they're primarily big-game shafts a dz should last several seasons. Personally, I don't make enough money to use them on squirrels. :)
Tim,
I have a matching pair of Widows - a longbow and a recurve - both 52.5 pounds at my 28 1/2" draw (I cut my arrows to 29 1/4"). I like shooting heavy arrows - usually 12-12.5 gpi, finished.
These bows are new to me (last spring) and I ended up shooting Gold Tips because by adding or subtracting 40 grains using the brass weight adaptor system, I was able to shoot the same arrow from both bows. The recurve shoots harder (faster) than the longbow and thus required less weight up front to increase the spine a bit. I was shooting 590 grain, 29 1/4" GTs from the recurve; and the same arrows from my longbow, except at 630 grains.
What has me curious about the Grizzly Sitkas is the tapered technology. I'm wondering if I might just be able to shoot the same arrow from both bows, without having to screw around with the weight adaptors?
Tim, to be a bit more descriptive I was shooting 5575 GTs with 125 grain woodsmans glued to 125 steel srew-in adaptors.
The 29 1/4" shafts and inserts were 285 grains
The Woodsmans/Adaptors were 250 grains
nocks/maxi-feathers 20 grains
285+250+20 = 555grains
Recurve... 555+40 more grains = 595 grains
Longbow....555+80 more grains = 635 grains
Hey Monty..........
I think you "CAN" shoot the same arrow from both bows with a simple weight change in the field tip or broadhead head. (weights of each)
I think if you want to be in the 600 Grain Range I would go with the Alaskans. With those arrows cut to 29 1/4" with Ed's standard brass insert with a head weight in the 125, 150 Grain area you are going to be real close to the 600 grain area you are looking at.
And these arrows can take a pounding trust me. The issue with these arrows is the fact that a lot of conventional arrow wisdom goes out the window. I personally shoot Alaskans out of all my bows and all it requires is a head change. I am not going to mess around with weights and epoxy and this and that.
That is the real beauty of this arrow design and product. I have found for me all I have to do is get close in total arrow weight and then it is nothing more than a simple weight change in regards to head weight. Only variance is that I like to shoot around 8 Grains Per Pound out of my bows for the speed. But my lightest bow is 75lbs also.
I am not sure where you are in Michigan but you are welcome to come to my place and take a look at these arrows and shoot them. I have some Alaskans we can get down to the low 600 Grain area by reducing field tip weight. They just are going to be a little long is all but I would bet they fly perfect!
Hope this helps.
Tim
QuoteOriginally posted by Labs4me:
1. Using a 125 grain Zwickey Eskimo glued to a 75, 100, or 125 grain steel adaptor, can I get the weight of a 29 1/4" Grizzly Safari up to 600 grains?
2. Is a Grizzly SAFARI any more (or less) DURABLE than any of the other more common, LESS EXPENSIVE carbon shafts (Gold Tips, Carbon Express, Beman MFX, etc.)? At $120 a dozen, which is about $40 more a dozen than the Gold Tips, I would expect these arrows to be considerably more durable.
Wish you would have posted this question prior to me cutting my Sitka yesterday. I have another one, so I'll check with your numbers. Right now, I have a Sitka cut to 28 1/2" (just the shaft- no nock, no insert), and it weighs 306 grains. Add a 125 Eskimo and we would be at 431 grains. Add your nocks / maxi-feathers at 20 grains, and we are now at 451 - about 150 shy of what you are looking for so far, but if we throw in that 125 grain steel adapter - you are now at 576 grains, and my arrow is 1 inch shorter than what you are looking for. The heaviest of those 1" pieces I kept in a little receptical by my arrow saw was 12 grains, so if you add that in, you come up with 588. So by my calculations, the answer to that question would be no - you're going to fall about 12 grains short of 600.
I hesitate to even bring this up, as Ed has been so helpful for me, but I cannot in all honesty pass up this information, especially since you are asking about total grain weight and trying to reach 600. I have another new shaft that I got from him the other day, and this new shaft weighs 40 grains lighter than the previous two new ones. If you were to get ahold of something like that shaft, it would put your final weight over 50 grains shy of your targeted weight. I emailed Ed yesterday about the weight difference, but due to the holiday, I don't expect to hear back from him today either.
I cannot answer your second question with any experience. It would be pure speculation. But I will say that the Gold Tips that I've purchased recently don't seem to be the same quality and strength as those that I've purchased in the past. I used to consider Gold Tips "indestrucable" up until this year, but for some reason, my new ones just aren't holding up. The comparison for me is simple - I have quite a few Gold Tips (before they started putting the colored identifying wrap on them - just black shafts with gold writing) that I bought YEARS ago, and have used them extensively on the 3D range, backyard practice, and hunting. I have arrows from that group that have taken deer and are still fully usable. But... since they were a few years old, and I wanted something new, I bought new 5575 Expeditions (5 of 6 fly like poop), 5575 XT's (10 of the original dozen from this year remain), and 3555 Trad blems (which I returned 6 of to the factory a few weeks back for replacement as 5 were warped and one had nicks on it - haven't seen replacements or heard back from them since).
I haven't been two overly impressed with GT this year, and that is a hard thing for me to say, as I have been a long-time GT fan. I'm still hoping that the factory will make things right as promised on the GT Traditional shafts, but it's been much longer than I anticipated, so I don't know. The lady I spoke to is very polite, and seemed to be very concerned with replacing my trad shafts, but when I mentioned that a 5575 I shot through a deer snapped cleanly in half when it hit the ground on the other side (dirt, no rocks), she said that was "normal". It's never been "normal" in my past experiences, so I was a bit confused on that one. Maybe my past experiences with carbons on a pass-thru were just lucky. I don't know.
Due to those experiences, I've started looking at other avenues this year, thus the Grizzly Stik's, as well as the AD Trad-Lites. I have both now, and will experiment for the next few months with them before making a decision. Gold Tips are still not "out" of the equation - after all.... I still have 17 here, as well as 6 that I'm hoping will be replaced soon.
I did a poll a while back on Traditional finish carbons... the Carbon Express kind of ran away with the most votes.
All the best,
Glenn
Tim,
You posted while I was writing that long disertation above. :D I think you are right - he might be better off going with the Alaskans, but I don't own any of them to help him make the call on weight. Nice offer you made there.
All the best,
Glenn
I have purchased 2 dozen( at seperate times). The first dozen were great and I killed 3 deer--2 whitetail and I mule deer--and 1 black bear with them, all complete passthru, and I have reused 3 of them...broke the one on the bear..hit a rock after it went thru...the second dozen didn't shooot nearly as well for some reason. I did shoot a whitetail with one and the arrow did not pass thru on a relatively close shot and I ultimately never found the deer--it was a well placrd shot too..damn!!. Anyway, there is my 2 cents worth.
I dont presently own any Grizzly Sticks, but hunted moose with a guy this past fall that was shooting them.
He was shooting a 70# recurve with Grizzly Stiks that weighed in the nieghborhood of 750 gr, tipped with a Woodsman broadhead.
I shot a couple of his arrows in practice and they were a bit stiff for my bow, but shot pretty well.
Anyway, he hit a bull moose in the front leg bone (evidently the bull took a step as he released). Obviously, he didnt get a lot of penetration. When we took up the trail, we found his arrow. The broadhead totally came apart. There were just remnants of two of the blades left. The arrow, on the other hand, is still in his quiver with a new head on it. It didnt phase it one bit.
The moral of this story is that I was quite impressed with the durability of these shafts, but not so much with the head. Anything that can stand up to that kind of impact, is probably worth the price.
BP
Tim and Cajuntec:
Thanks for taking the time to make such thorough responses. Regarding the GTs, Cajuntec: mine are vintage 2007. It's not that I was dissatisfied with them, but after a full season of day to day usage (practice and hunting), in my opinion, they are no more durable than the XX78 2216s which I've used for fifteen plus years. For the extra money, I expected more durability out of the GTs- and I just didn't see it. Could be just a bad period in the history of the GTs manufacturing process.
Tomorrow I intend to order a test pack from ABS- one Sitka and one Alaskan. If I can get the finished arrow anywhere above, say, 580 grains, that should be plenty of "wallop" out of my menacing 52# recurve and longbow. I am hopeful that I'll be able to hunt with the same arrow out of both bows by using an Eskimo glued to different weight broadhead adaptors.
Tim- some day I hope to be able to SQUAT 75#s. My only chance of pulling 75#s would be to pull a 37 1/2# bow twice...
:notworthy: :goldtooth:
p.s. Tim, Jay's Sporting Goods in Clare is my Mecca. Perhaps one day when I'm up that way we can fling a few arrows and also talk dogs.
QuoteOriginally posted by Labs4me:
Tim and Cajuntec:
Thanks for taking the time to make such thorough responses. Regarding the GTs, Cajuntec: mine are vintage 2007. It's not that I was dissatisfied with them, but after a full season of day to day usage (practice and hunting), in my opinion, they are no more durable than the XX78 2216s which I've used for fifteen plus years. For the extra money, I expected more durability out of the GTs- and I just didn't see it. Could be just a bad period in the history of the GTs manufacturing process.
Tomorrow I intend to order a test pack from ABS- one Sitka and one Alaskan. If I can get the finished arrow anywhere above, say, 580 grains, that should be plenty of "wallop" out of my menacing 52# recurve and longbow. I am hopeful that I'll be able to hunt with the same arrow out of both bows by using an Eskimo glued to different weight broadhead adaptors.
Tim- some day I hope to be able to SQUAT 75#s. My only chance of pulling 75#s would be to pull a 37 1/2# bow twice...
:notworthy: :goldtooth:
p.s. Tim, Jay's Sporting Goods in Clare is my Mecca. Perhaps one day when I'm up that way we can fling a few arrows and also talk dogs.
No problem on the help. I was going to suggest the Test Packs.......
I am almost certain the Alaskans are going to work. Just remember in these shafts its all about total arrow weight you are looking for more than GPI or your bows weight.
Ed will hook you up!
Tim
back to home...
nock fitting:
- at the right extremity one can see that the rod of the tool is contacting the inside nock's cone end
- at the left side one can see the 2mm lacking to the nock's insert for filling completly the inside nock's cone
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5764/nockhf4.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5764/nockhf4.04cb548999.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=503&i=nockhf4.jpg)
pics too big
broadhead insert diameter versus shaft diameter
(http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/7977/insertjb5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
pics too big
Foudarme----instead of attempting to publicly attack a good product, why not just shoot something else? It really is that easy, each person has their personal preferences and your preference obviously isn't Grizzly Stiks. No sense raking a guy across the coals just because you personally don't like his product.
Just a thought.
my goal is not to attack this good product, much more if it is so good, nobody will be scared by what I am doing ...for me I am just explaining by pictures what are the meaning of my remarks, cause for some they were like lies...everybody is free to like these shafts or not...don't worry for me, I shoot something else, but there was an initial question and there is my illustrated answer.
shaft diameter...0.7mm larger than insert
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8739/shaftrd8.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
(http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8739/shaftrd8.8b9700b8e1.jpg) (http://g.imageshack.us/g.php?h=525&i=shaftrd8.jpg)
pics too big....
eclipse ferule's diameter (9.32mm) vs shaft diameter (9.7mm)...
(http://img168.imageshack.us/img168/644/eclipsesm5.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
pics too big....
spine differences...
shaft one stiff side (not selected shaft, first taken among a dozen): 0.120 deflection = 216lb
(http://img115.imageshack.us/img115/2958/stiff1gd1.jpg) (http://imageshack.us)
pics too big, post smaller next time please
OK, I've had about enough. I've reported this to the board administrators. Hopefully, this will come to an end shortly.
All the best,
Glenn
get those pictures smaller.
shaft 2, stiff side...not perticulerly selected, another shaft among the same dozen...
(//%5Burl=http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9404/stiff2to4.jpg%5Dhttp://img116.imageshack.us/img116/9404/stiff2to4.jpg%5B/url%5D) (http://imageshack.us)
pics too big, post smaller next time please.
OK, OK....I'm not a big fan of grizzly sticks either....but I think your point has been made, and the rebuttles have been posted. Now it's just a peepee contest...we don't have those here.