I got a bit motivated this morning and decided to see what I could do with a bit of steel cable I had in the shed and had a bit of fun with my forge.The first attemp came out just as I wanted but when I ground it to shape I could soon see that I had not worked it enough and it became a letter opener instead.Its hard to learn this sort of stuff from books and I leart heaps from my first try so gave it another go and this time really worked it well and I think it will become a knife tomorrow.I love the look of the rougher one but need more practise.The bottom one in the pic was the first attempt.
Cheers KIM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kimall/P1010350_edited.jpg)
Shame about the inclusions in the bottom blade :(
The top blade will look great after a polish & etch! Good job :thumbsup:
I know absolutely nothing about this but those look awesome. Perhaps you can make one with a well worked blade like the top one and a handle section like the bottom. Then some minimal handle covering that would highlight the "rough" handle.
Auz..
Not only are the blanks cool, but I have been dreaming for years to be able to start any conversation with the first sentence of your post.
Great Work!!!!
:clapper:
"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again!" was written on the hallway wall of my elementary school.... I can see it just like it was yesterday even though it was 20+ years ago... the other hallway had something similar... "mistakes are good, they help us grow, they teach us what we need to know". Looks good Auz, just keep it up and it will look GREAT!
Mike
Looks like a great first try to me. Keep at it I have faith you will get it done.<><
Ok...this might sound silly....but what exactly holds that cable wire together while you are grinding it, and afterwards? Kirk
AWESOME JOB!!!
Funny you should have this post right at the same time I am just getting my first billets of cable damascus(3 of 'em), and one true damascus, ready for cutting and grinding. Been racking my brain (that was a fruitless exercise!!), and prowling blade forums as well as input from my mentor for blade designs. I think I might mock a few up out of wood and clay to see what I like the best as far as blade profile and handle shape are concerned. Yours look great!
I kinda learned how to use the 24 ton drawing dies on my first piece and that made a real fancy piece of damascus ribbon (no good for a knife anymore but it is shaping up real well as a bracelet :banghead: My other billets came out great, so hopefully I'll have something real purdy to show you all.
Not that you need it, but since you mentioned how tuff it was to learn this stuff from a book, feel free to ask any ?'s you might have, not that I could answer too many of them, but my buddy is a true master at the forge so he could help I'm sure.
Again, great job and good luck!
Nathan
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
Ok...this might sound silly....but what exactly holds that cable wire together while you are grinding it, and afterwards? Kirk
Heat. The cable is forge welded into one continuous bar, rather than seperate wire strands. The Cable is heated in the forge, fluxed & then hammered like crazy until it bonds into a solid bar.
And believe me, it's a heck of a lot easier to explain than to do! :D
Good going on your first attemp! :bigsmyl:
It's a lot easier using one of these instead of a hammer to get the steel compressed & welded. This one is Doug Campbells, now it's on my wish list...Doc
Toecutter, Where in Mass are you?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Knives/MontanaDamascus1.jpg)
Tippit, I'm down on the south shore (Dartmouth) My friend/mentor is Indian George aka. George Rebello. If you google indian georges knives you can see some of his stuff. Some really amazing stuff from one hell of a guy.
The few posts that I've seen of your knives have been fantastic. I sure wouldn't mind loosing a few arrows and picking your brain some day.
Take care,
Nathan
looks a heck of a lot better than my first attempts....
kirk what holds it together is 'excitement' :)
really..its a molecular thing, once heated to a certain temp, the electrons get so excited they break the barrier between pieces and and bond together locking the individual pieces together. the flux that rob was talking about makes sure nothing gets in there between the layers to hinder the bonding....
heres a couple of my first attempts...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/hickstick/billet.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/hickstick/pwlft.jpg)
bandsaw blade & handsaw blade
and a chunk of Quarter mokume:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v504/hickstick/new%20forge/25MOKUME.jpg)
MAN...I got so excited seeing the pic of the power hammer thinking that tippit actually has one that I could 'pimp in' and use......only to be let down knowing its in montana :(
Toecutter, I had looked up Indian George and wanted to attend one of his Hammer Ins! I would really like to meet him as his level is way above mine. Let me know if that is possible and I'd be glad to drive down to shoot some arrows & pound some steel.
Hickstick, If I could find a power hammer around here, It would have a new home immediately :D tippit
QuoteOriginally posted by hickstick:
[QB] looks a heck of a lot better than my first attempts....
kirk what holds it together is 'excitement' :)
really..its a molecular thing, once heated to a certain temp, the electrons get so excited they break the barrier between pieces and and bond together locking the individual pieces together. the flux that rob was talking about makes sure nothing gets in there between the layers to hinder the bonding....
Sound an awful lot like a good marrige....i won't touch that part about the flux.....LOL!
jeff...let me know if at some point you want to try to build one...I've got the 'rusty' plans from jerry allen, and have also done a bunch of research on tire hammers....with the likelihood of finding one for sale around here, I think we'd have to build one...
Tippit,
I'll find out this weekend and let you know when the next hammering is. FYI, A 30 pack of buds really puts a smile on George's face :D
The flux is for a couple of things really. It forms a seal to keep oxygen away from between the layers. Oxidation is your enemy. Since the flux is in liquid form at welding heat, it squirts out when the billet is struck with a hammer, taking with it some scale that will likely form.
Most of the time, if there is a problem, it's because the billet did not soak at welding heat long enough and/or it is allowed to cool too much while being hammered on.
It takes doing it a few times and messing up a lot to figure out what the flux looks like at welding heat and what the color of the steel is at welding heat.
One other thing. After successfully welding the billet, you must forge the blade at a rather high heat, near welding temperature. Since the blade is being hammered to a thinner cross section, this means less mass and faster heat gain and loss. Turn the forge down a little and let the blade soak up the heat till it's at forging temp. In other words, dont blast the heat into the blade or it will burn the point and thinnner edges before the thick areas are ready for the hammer.
Lin
Thanks guys for the tips and Lin I agree with every word on the 2nd one I worked it a lot hotter and got a heap better result.It is a lot slower learning without some one there pointing out things for you as you go along.It is great fun though and hard work I couldnt lift the hammer by the time I was finished.
Cheers KIM
Auzoutdoor,
Are you working the billet by yourself? Sometimes with cable you may want to have a helper on the other end of the cable section with tongs twisting the opposite way (tighter)you are while you hammer the strands together. This will take careful planning. Just a suggestion.
Lin
Yer Lin on my own.On the 2nd one I heated it up hotter and then put it in the vice and twisted it up some turns and it got really tight and then I hammered it square and worked my way up and when I got to the handle I had welded on I flattened it and folded it back on itself and flattened that to give me enough material to make a blade.
Cheers kim
Lin, Not wanting to delaminate my billet is what has me looking at this piece of damascus steel :eek: I know I need to work it at a higher temp than my regular 5160, 1080, and 52100...but I'm hesitant to start...tippit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Knives/MontanaDamascus002.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Knives/MontanaDamascus004.jpg)
Awesome thread, keep it going!
tacking the cable onto a piece of rebar to aid in handling as well as holding the cable seems to really hold one end together. After that, chase each strand with the hammer and have fun!!
This post is great :clapper:
Hey Jeff, like I told ya, just fire that forge up, throw that billet in and go to work on her. If ya mess it up you'll just have to come back to MT and make another one ;)
I know you like banging around and making lots of noise but you might want to think about a press if hammers are non-existant in MA. You can do some pretty cool work with even a smaller press. I've been scheming for some time how I can build one. Got some real good plans if your interested.
That second one looks like a keeper Kim, it only took one billet hammered by hand to convince me I needed a trip hammer ;) Course ya caint have too many toys ;)
Just looked at George's website, looks like he built his press, you guys sure better go play with it if you get a chance.
I am def keen on some plans of a press or hammer I could make if someone would be kind enough to email them to me that would be fantastic.
Thanks in advance...klorentz@bigpond.net.au
yah doug...I been scoutin around for a 20 ton log splitter to convert...haven't found any at the right price. plus all that mumbo-jumbo about hydraulics and cycle rates and such gets my head spinnin...
I think you can get an idea of how to build it here: web page (http://www.ferrumdg.com/32.0.html?&L=1%3FL%3D0)
Lin
Tippit,
You'll never know until you try. It looks good at this point. I would arc weld a handle of some sort on the uglyest end, have all your moves planned out, and get er done. The hardest part, besides getting the nerve to start, is allowing time to come to proper heat and resisting the urge to hit the billet after it cools below the proper heat.
As a confidence builder, before you do anything, grind a little on the outside of the billet and see for yourself that it's now "one" piece of steel. I'm talking about the edges of the laminations. You'll probably see the strata, but there should be no gaps.
Also, another thing that can fool you. When the billet is at it's largest cross section, you have to allow a little extra soak time to get the middle of the billet up to the same heat as the outside. The flux may be dancing and looking good on the outside, but if there is a shadow in the center, wait till it changes and the whole things is the same color and at heat.
I have recently started stacking my billets into odd numbered layers. That way the exact center of the billet is solid and the welds are moved, albiet only a little, away from the dead center to increase my chances of a good weld. You may have to sketch a billet on paper to understand what I mean. I did.
Lin
Ya lost me on that last part Lin, could you expand on it please?
If I remember right after the initial weld on Jeff's billet we cut it twice for three layers and another reweld... that's all we had time for if I remember right. I'm thinking there should be like 48 layers there, enough for a decent first damascus blade.... It's 1/8" - 1080 & .60" - 15N20 alternated.
This short term memory loss is a real pain :thumbsup:
No problem. For instance, if you had even number of layers, say 4 layers. There will be a joint in the exact middle of the stack. Is this a problem, no, IF you get the heat right and soak it and let the middle of the billet come up to the same heat as the outside extremes of the billet. That, of course, is the goal. But, to add just a bit of insurance, I cut and stack in odd numbers. This moves the joints away from the exact dead center of the billit. Not by much, but the fact remains, I am increasing my odds of having a successfull weld. If you are strictly eyeballing it, be sure and watch the joints closest to the middle. Make sure the flux is acting the way it should there. The outer perimeters will take care of itself.
Lately I have been using a temperature probe thats fits into a small hole in the side of my forge. Knowing the exact temperature and watching the way the flux and the steel color acts helps a lot.
Lin
I don't know if anyone has asked yet,but I was wondering what you were going to make the blades out of.Oh,and by the way nice knife.
Thats I top idea about odd numbers I had not thought of that.It has just come out of the etching and I am excited and will show a pic soon.This was cable damascus and it only had 6 strands so the patern in the steel in pretty corse but I still made a damasuc blade.woohoo.
PS.I dont see any hyjacking going on please everyone that has some input should feal free to do so.
Cheers KIM
Auzoutdoor,
I have been in my shop most of the day working up a billet. I've got 165 layers and then turned it 90 degrees and flattened it into a 3/8 X 1 1/4 bar. Tomorrow I plan on making another just like it and cutting both into lengths and restacking pieces from them into one large billet. I am hoping to get a couple of knives made from it. It will take a couple more days to get some results. I'm glad yours is working for you. I know that feelin.
Lin
Here is quick pic of the blade so far.I see that there is alot more time involved in damascus when you see how long you have been working on your billet.Wow.
Cheers KIM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kimall/P1010354copy.jpg)
Well,it looks pretty good so far. :thumbsup: Did you know cable has a lot of different kinds of steel in it? I forget how many though. :rolleyes: :campfire:
Kim,
Since I have so much invested in a damascus knife, I feel like I have to cut and grind each piece clean before restacking. This eats up some time, but allows me to do other things in between, like check the forums:). I also let the billet cool so I can handle it. I'll show you a picture of the pattern I'm going after.
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1402/1440063551_57ca1ec597.jpg)
Maybe you can see the pattern here. Lin
I am sure it is all worth it Lin I look forward to seeing the results.I am learning so much about forge welding it blows my mind.I am doing it in a little gas forge I built myself out of plumbing fittings so it is even more rewarding when it works out for me.
Cheers KIM
My forge is homemade and from the same materials. Squirrel cage blower, black pipe, etc.
A lot of forge welding is technique. True, you have to have a few tools and a forge that will reach welding temps, but by far, most of it is knowing when and how. I have spent whole weekends in my shop and find out it was all for nothing when I find bad spots in my damascus. It's discouraging, but will make you ask questions and try VERY hard next time. Lin
Here is a pic of my little forge in operation.I do agree Lin 100% it is more about how and when and I am getting a lot more confidence using the forge and getting it up to welding temp.I now know the differance between the flux bubbling and when it starts to skate so have come a long way in a short time.Thanks for all your help and would love to see some pics of any blades you have finished.
Cheers KIM (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kimall/P1020649_edited.jpg)
I made this little piece some time ago but used steel not suitable for a blade but when I cut it in half it had welded perfectly so will now go this way I think.
Cheers KIM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kimall/P1020688_edited.jpg)
Sweet looking bowie Lin as is everything I've seen of your's.
Looks like a pretty good forge Kim, the best way to figure this stuff out is to just keep working away at it. Unless you've got an experienced knifemaker close trial and error is a pretty good teacher. Since you've built a nice forge I'm guessing you've been forging for a bit but there are several good books and videos out there on the subject also.
I installed a pyrometer in my forge a couple years ago and really like it. No guessing what the temps I'm running at anymore.
I don't have a cool webpage like Lin but you can click on my photo album at the bottom of this post, there are lots of knife pics there.
Ok this is the latest pic and it has an edge and seems to sharpen well and is a bit harder od tougher in the feel to sharpen than the L6 I normally use but I will keep this one for myself and give it a longterm test.
I dont think I will do a cable damascus next time prob just a normal pattern welded piece.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kimall/P1010564copy.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v288/kimall/P1010563copy.jpg)
Doug I had a look at your knives lovley work and Lin yours are fantastic too.You have now seen all the forging I have ever done so still a very steep learning curve but lots of fun all the same.Thanks to all the guys that have made this thread so good.
Cheers KIM
Kim,
If this is your first, you are way ahead in the game already! Very impressive. I bet it will serve you well.
Doug, I looked at your knives and really like your carbon steel Hunters. Great design.
Lin
Auz....did you etch that blade?
I like the way you left the tang sticking out beyond the handle slabs..
Hick yer mare I did but then when I finished the blade it came up shiney again so I just polished it again as you can still see the lines in the blade even though it is shiney.I left the tang sticking out to make people think about it a bit and to see what the knife was made out of.
Cheers KIM