Im sure there is a simple explanation to this...does it depend on how much mass is in the riser?? I know recurves are typically cut to center but not longbows... why is that? I would think cut to center would mean easier tuning and a wider spine selection... forgive me if this is a dumb question, but im still learning here...
Mass in riser yes!
As for longbows not being cut to center, I could be wrong but there are many that are cut to center and some that are cut past center.
Selfbows usually do not have a cut in shelf, but some do.
"I would think cut to center would mean easier tuning and a wider spine selection" you are correct!!!
Yep..i was aware that some longbows are also cut to center or even past... it seems to me that if any riser was capable of being cut to center then that would be the way to go...or is there another reason other than riser mass, that short of center would be desirable?
I believe that is the main reason.... how much material there is to work with when cutting out the shelf. Just like some bowyers are very conservative as to how narrow or deep they will cut the grip throat.... same thing, amount of material and not risking compromising it's strength.
Some longbow shoots require 1/8 off center....
Competition rules may play a huge part in the reason. Most of the big longbow competitions have some type of a 1/8 inch from center rule. This probably originated to allow older style bows to still be competitive but I am not sure.
Some custom bowyers will cut it to wherever you want it.
Some folks like Toyota and others a Chevrolet.
I don't think a bow that is cut so the arrow is centershot is inherently more accurate than one that is not. However, more care needs to be taken in tuning arrows for the non-centershot bow. An arrow correctly tuned for a non-centershot bow will bend around the bow and fly straight, just as though the bow were centershot.
If a bow handle is strong enough, I can see no reason not to cut it so the arrow is centershot, other than some competition rules, as was noted. However for many self bows, the handle is not strong enough. In The Traditional Bowyer's Bible, John Strunk contemplates whether it is worth the risk to cut a 1/4" platform for the arrow rather than providing an arrow rest on the side of the bow handle, and concludes that "in my estimation, it is not worth the risk."
There is a natural movement of the arrow away from the bows center on the nock end when released by fingers.If a bow was center shot it would change the pressure point, not a good thing! Some archers have to pad out the plate on their bows to achieve good flight. Most bowyers are aware of this and cut their shelfs shy of center.
I build my risers on the old Bear model with an I beam in the center . This allows me to cut all my risers 3/16 past center and still retain stiffness, the purple heart I beam or redheart or bloodwood looks great too and adds an extra dimension to the riser look.
More and more bowyers are cutting risers past center on longbows as well as recurves. It was a matter of riser strength that they only were cut to center but the riser can be purposely left thick on the side opposite of the window too.,There are ways.
God bless and Happy New Year, Steve
Some bows aint got enough wood. No big beal, there just a little pickier about the arrows ya shoot in them.
Eric
im glad i asked this question.... im getting a wealth of great responses...thanks .... i did not know about the longbow competition rule and at the same time am learning abit about bow design....
"There Are No Stupid Questions" jacobsladder, Not Around the Great People of "TRAD-GANG"!! :thumbsup: :goldtooth:
This has been very helpful for me also. I have been pondering the same question for some time now. Thanks for the good question and answers.
Jon
Shakes is right on the money. There are no stupid questions here.
For every question asked, several of us learn.
Take care,
Ed :campfire:
I dunno, Matt, My Morrison recurve riser is cut 3/16 past center... all that means basically is that the force of the string imparted to the arrow is more direct, and requires a stiffer spine given the same draw weight then a riser cut shy of center by any amount. Since the arrow doesn't "wrap" through 'paradox' as much, it needs be stiffer!
I'm not sure a pressure point issue is inherently good or bad, just different. I had my custom Fedora 560 made cut to center and it shoots basically the very same arrow as the Morrison set up, and the two are but 2# of draw weight different.
then again, friends bows with risers shy of center and drawing up to 10-15# MORE draw weight shoot my arrows "stiff"... so side plate / Center shot, really does affect spine required.
My John McCullough (?) longbow is cut 1/8" shy as John says that is AMO or IBO legal as stated above.
For ease of tuning and therefore allowing a larger variety of arrow spines, all bows should be cut 3/16ths past center unless the archer wants to use the bow in some competitive class that requires something else.
As many have said, any bow cut only to center or perhaps cut before center requires careful matching of arrows between it, the person shooting it, the arrow length, shaft diameter, point weight, and spine.
Everyone should always remember the little trick of being able to tune your bow to your arrow if the bow is cut well past center. If arrows are flying weak (to the right for a righty) then simply build out the strike plate on the sight window a smidgen and make those arrows paradox a bit more and you're tuned.
Having a riser cut fully 3/16ths past center is always a good thing unless certain classes of competition don't allow it.
By center shot,I am talking about the center of the arrow in relation to the bow. A thicker arrow can be shot in a deeper cut bow if the arrow is thin it may be that the plate needs to be shimmed out. Some of the carbon arrows are very thin which would put the center of the arrow to far into the bow. How would one go about tuning these wthout shimming out the plate?
QuoteOriginally posted by Matt E:
There is a natural movement of the arrow away from the bows center on the nock end when released by fingers.If a bow was center shot it would change the pressure point, not a good thing! Some archers have to pad out the plate on their bows to achieve good flight. Most bowyers are aware of this and cut their shelfs shy of center.
I have to disagree with this quote in some respects Matt. Having a bow riser cut past center gives you a wider range of arrow spine you can shoot allowing you to use different weight tips on the same arrows or shoot different arrows completely.
arrows are expensive ...... seems to me having the luxury of adjusting a riser pad out a bit is a lot easier and more cost effective than building or buying more arrows....I believe a lot of bowyers do go past center for just that reason....I have cut each bow i have built a little closer to center each time, and found them to be more user friendly...... Kirk
(http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u301/kirkll/Finished%20Bows/FirstRecurve021.jpg)
This one is an 1/8" past center
Kirk, My previous post may explain what I meant some what better. Like your bow being cut 1/8" past center. an arrow 1/4" diameter would be center shot. Most people I know don't shoot less than a 5/16" diameter shafts...... I like your bow, it looks well made.
Matt,
I play with model trains and scenery so I have some plastic sheeting in varying thickness.
I simply use small "shims" ala OL's advice to put behind my sideplate material(for me it is ALWAYS sealskin from ABS) till I find what thickness works best. 1/8" wide "sliver" works fine of hte right thickness once you know.
My GT's and several other carbons are similar in diameter (.001 dif) to 2018's. Thinner than 70+ # tapered cedar but not so thin as days of yore w/ carbon soda straws.
I also make sure I have a small "pivot point" on the arrow shelf (also ala OL's tuning guide)right above the deepest inset of my grip. Writers claim it improves "forgiveness" and I can use all that I can get.
This is a great thread, I have been shooting GT 35/55's, as well as a Beeman MFX 500, an older style. The Beeman seems considerably smaller in diameter, than the 5/16"s Gold Tip, and although I only have 1, it doesn't seem to be as critical on poor releases, as does on the Gold Tips, I'm wondering if due the smaller O.D. of the Beeman, it is simulating, being more cut to center..???
that is correct ...a thinner diameter will put you closer to center...which i believe is a plus.
That is what I'm finding through Trial and Error...
One last point, if you have a less than perfect release, would it be safe to assume, that a bow cut to center would be more forgiving on less than perfect releases???
I might be wrong, but it is my experience with bows cut past center, I have to shoot a much heavier spine arrow. I think it is easier to find the right spine and weight arrow for a bow not cut to or past center.
I think there is too much importance placed on being cut past center.
Any bow cut 3/16 past center will shoot a wider variety of spine weights and tune faster and easier than a bow cut to center. You want the arrow to be split by the string and centered on the bow limb to be perfectly tuned. All target shooters know this and that is why they use the recurves with perfect centershot adjustments on them. It is easy to build the window out by shimming but no way can you take it in unless its already made that way. I build my bows to shoot wood arrows or aluminums/. Carbon shooters can shim them easily. IMHO JOhn Harvard was right on the money with what he said. Why start out with a disadvantage of having to have an arrow bend around the bow?
"CURIOUS WHY ALL BOWS AREN'T CUT TO CENTER ???"
some people might not like cut in shelfs and the advantages you get at tuning arrows.
I for one think that cut in arrow passes are ugly and take away from the simmetry of a bow,..... and like the challenge of shooting around the handle :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl:
I'll take some of each, thank you. :saywhat:
I shoot almost exclusively Howard Hill, with a few old vintage longbows thrown in. Neither are center cut and I've learned to almost automatically select an appropriate arrow for a particular bow. However, I recently got a new Hill I had made as an experiment... no shelf at all... kind of like an English longbow riser, fairly thick and you shoot it off of your hand. Getting arrow match was a broadening of my education. Given it's draw weight, if it had had the normal Hill shelf, it should have shot well with 50# spine arrows. I had to drop back 10#, but, once I did that, it's one of the best shooting Hills I have. I'm currently waiting for my next "experimental" Hill... one also made with no shelf, but with a very narrow riser, thinned on both sides... the same as the old vintage bows... shoot off of the hand on either side. I expect to get this one in February and am really looking forward to getting to know it in terms of arrow match.
Obviously, the modern center cut bow makes life easier, but what's the fun in that?
Dick inSeatle
Im loving this thread ..thanks to all for your thoughts! I like all the bows ..with cut shelfs or not cut... i ran across a fellow this year that was shooting a self bow off of his hand... unbelievable! he was by far one of the better shots on the course.. I guess my real question would be if your gonna cut just shy of center ...why not just cut to center....I think it would be much more easier for the fellows shooting in the lower 40s to match arrows...you guys did a great job of answering that question in the previous posts...thanks..
Dick, here's my HILL :bigsmyl:
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/NorthShoreLB/Bows%20for%20sale/boar017.jpg)
nice :thumbsup:
Manny -
Is that Hill the blank you bought and finished yourself? You just built out a shelf and didn't cut one in? Looks nice.
I'm still debating about doing this myself so appreciate the pic. What arrows do you shoot out of this bow? What are it's specs? Not trying to hijack the thread - I think these answers will still apply to the original question.
BillJ
Bill, yes this was a blank I shaped myself, than build up a leather shelf like a selfbow.
I shoot 2117 legacy cut 27 1/2", with 380gr up front plus insert for a total arrow weight of about 830GR
the bow is 68", 71-72# at my draw length.
Well! Doc Nock a Fellow ModelRailroader!! :thumbsup: Glad to Hear that Doc!! :goldtooth:
QuoteOriginally posted by Matt E:
Kirk, My previous post may explain what I meant some what better. Like your bow being cut 1/8" past center. an arrow 1/4" diameter would be center shot. Most people I know don't shoot less than a 5/16" diameter shafts...... I like your bow, it looks well made.
Thanks Matt....i got a photo of a Fedora riser with the thumb ledge, and tried my best to copy it while shaping the riser. i could have easily taken another 1/8th past center on this riser without jeopardizing the strength, but i liked the way it looked and stopped right there...I shot 2018's at 600 grains through it this fall while hunting....think i'm going to go lighter with a 2016 and run er her through some 3D courses this winter. my long bow likes the heavier shafts better than this recurve....Strangely enough...i like the feel of a long bow better too for some reason...I've got some hybrids in the works that are turning out to be shooters now.... i may get side tracked all together here! LOL
I've got a question for the bowyers out there regarding the same subject here....
When you say a bow is cut 5/16ths past center....is that the measurement from center of the string, to the riser cut out? that is how i have measured mine....thanks....Kirk
Kirk,that is how I measure it...... If It is cut 5/16 past center it would need an attached rest or some mechanical apparatus to bring it out the same way you set up an Olympic or compound bow. I have never seen an american style long bow nor a hunting type recurve cut back this far........5/16" is the diameter of a 20 series aluminum shaft? If shot this way ,how could you ever get good arrow flight?
QuoteOriginally posted by Kirkll:
There is a lot of dynamics to consider when getting good arrow flight Matt. The closer to center shot you are, the less the arrow needs to flex to get around your riser with out having contact. Theoretically with a completely center shot bow an arrow would need no flex at all to it....A stiffer shaft is desirable in a hunting shaft for durability during penetration. I have field tested many different shafts of different spines though a totally center shot compound bow in search of perfect arrow flight. The differences are found in tip weight vs arrow spine, and the FOC. How all my testing over the years relates to traditional style bows is an on going experiment for me right now. due to the inconsistency of using fingers instead of a mechanical release, i'm finding arrow fletching is a big factor too. espeacilly shootiong off the shelf......But my findings were that an arrow that absorbs some of the force of the string...flexes slightly, and snaping back... out performed the stiffer shafts having virtually no flex at all.It has something to do with "Spring tention and elastic collusion" calculations...(Whatever that is?....i'm no engineer by any means...LOL!)....But i argued with engineers for a long time over that one anyway.... Keep in mind the only way you can get these stiff shafts to fly good is using an arrow rest of some kind that allows complete fletching clearance at the time of release. A lot of these arrow field tests I've done over the years will not even apply to a traditional style bow at all unless you use an elevated rest with a burger button, and are drawing 84 lbs.....
Regarding never seeing hunting recurve bows cut this far past center..... I think you may be mistaken on that one bro.....Here is a quote from Wes Wallace on his web site:
"The wide limb design and long fade outs on my recurves create a total working limb that tapers to a narrow tip for superb smoothness. The sight window on my recurves are cut 3/16" past center for the best arrow flight. Both the shelf and the sight window are radius cut. With a brace height of 7 ½" the bow is extremely quiet shooting with stability and speed unsurpassed"
Keep something else in mind here Matt....when a bow riser is cut past center it allows for a wider variety of shelf and riser pad materials to be used, as well as a wider variety of arrow shafts by adjusting the pad thickness, vs arrow spine... much easier to put a nice thick piece of beaver skin or leather in the riser than to buy lighter spined arrows.....I use a piece of cow hide with the fur on that is at least 1/8th inch thick on mine....Just because i like the looks.... i hope i ansewered you question above.....Kirk
OOOOPS! I went to edit this post and replied with a quote instead.....Kirk
Bill, I was wrong, it's 380gr of broadhead, insert and weights,...plus I have 2" of 1/4' plastic tubing attached to the weights, that takes the total weight up front to well over 400GR :bigsmyl: