Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: 2ndTimeShooter on May 08, 2016, 05:12:00 PM
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Hello All, I'm new to this site and have learned a lot reading various posts.
I was looking for a vintage Bear at or around 35# and saw a 64", 36# Kodiak Special Deluxe new listing on the auction site, for a purchase price of $280. I jumped on it as I've read how rare and well shooting these bows are, and was tired of auctions. Don't have it yet but from the pics it looks like it's in great shape. Have a few questions maybe you can help with.
1. It is stamped 22. I've read this means it was factory refinished and that this model had glue problems. Is it safe to shoot since it's been refinished? Or should I find another bow to use for shooting (mostly target)?
2. What is the correct brace height?
3. How long a string does it use?
4. How do you post pics here? I would be glad to post some if I knew how.
Thanks everyone.
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I use photobucket to upload my pictures to. Then you can copy them to here.
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Welcome 2nd Time.
I have read posts that say the 22 signified a factory refinish and I have read posts that say that isn't the reason. I have heard of bows with far more twos stamped onto them than just a 22. The only thing that I am certain of is that a bunch of bow owners didn't mar their bows up with #2 stamps. Do a little research on here. Wade Phillips has discussed that with a few fellows on here and I trust his knowledge as much as anyone.
Damascus Dave claims to shoot his Deluxe quite a bit. I have five Deluxe and Special Deluxe bows and have never strung them. My thought is why take the chance when I have four '59 Kodiak Specials that are sweet shooting bows and didn't set me back near as much money.
If you want to shoot it use a Dacron string 60" or so in length and measure the brace height. Start twisting if need to get to 7 1/4 to 7 1/2". My guess is that the sweet spot will be between 7 1/2 and 8 inches.
I use photobucket, which is free, and load my pictures from there. What I do is open two windows; one for photobucket and one for Tradgang. I open the picture on photobucket so that it gives a list of options on the right. Click on the bottom one and it will briefly change to "copied". Switch back to Tradgang and click add image. Right click in the area that open for the photo, click paste, a few lines of information will appear, click okay or whatever the option for accepting it says then repeat until you have your photos moved to tradgang. It is quite cumbersome, especially if you have slow Internet like I have.
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Thanks for the detailed reply, Brad. I don't have a collection of bows like you do, so I don't have the option of hanging it up and shooting something else like it. I shot all the time as a kid and teenager, then stopped and just resumed a couple of months ago at the age of 62. I used to shoot a 45# Grizzly, this time my first bow was a 2014 45# super Kodiak... beautiful but not vintage. I have 2 fractured vertebrae that cause chronic pain, after years of therapy I thought maybe bow shooting would help, plus be fun. I'm limited in what I can do and had a fun deficiency! Shooting has fixed that but the 45#er is too heavy for me to practice with and get back into shooting well. Then I learned people need a practice bow that is lighter. I found a 1968 Bear cub at 29#, 62" w/ a zebrawood riser on the auction site for $130 and got that. It shoots pretty well and is super light, now I can shoot a lot more... and I'm refinishing it. But I wanted something a little heavier, but lighter than my 45# S.K., so I looked on the auction site again. Lost a bid for a 35# Kodiak Hunter, then after looking obsessively I saw this Kodiak Super Deluxe just after it was listed. No auction, just $280 buy now... and did I buy now! I've read about all the vintage models and knew this was both a great shooter, rare and beautiful. I don't have it yet but when I do I will go over it carefully and check for flaws, try to fix any if they are there before shooting. I also got a 69 (I think) 60" Kodiak Hunter, 40# zebrawood riser, also not here yet, in case I want to move up in pounds and like it.
I'm choosing to believe that if the 22 stamp means the factory refinished it, then it should be good to shoot... maybe better than one that was not refinished. We'll see.
Thanks for the string and brace height info. And the photo info... when I have time I'll do that.
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I'm one of those nuts who regularly shoots his De Luxe. Fred intended them to be used, and I'd hate to tell him he was wrong about that. ;) :archer2:
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2nd time, you'll have to post some pics of these bows when they come in. One possible reason your KSD got the 2 stamp was early vertical stress lines in the Crystalite glass over the limbs. That is very common and Fred Bear was a stickler for honoring their lifetime warranty, so a lot of those bows that are still being shot 55 years later went back to the factory in their infancy.
I'd love to see photos of the Kodiak Hunter you've got coming in. I've never seen or heard of any 60" zebrawood Kodiak Hunters, only a handful of the 58" 1967 model. There are tigerwood (Goncala Alves) 1969 KH's, typically also with black fiberglass tip and riser overlays , and a few 1968 KH and Grizzly bows had tigerwood...very handsome bows.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=print_topic;f=14;t=005362
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Hi Magonboat,
Thanks for the reply. I sent some pics of the Kodiak Special Deluxe (taken from the auction site's product page) to Rick Rappe, who also has and shoots the same model, except his is left handed. he said from the picks it almost looks too good to be true, and it should be fine to shoot. He thinks the 22 stamp may be a result of Bear sales reps stamping bows in stores to mark them as last year's models so they would be discounted to make room for the new year's models. I guess without a time machine we may never know for sure!
I don't use photobucket yet but maybe this will work for seeing pics of the zebrawood 60" Kodiak Hunter. I'll paste the original listing page URL here, if Tradgang let's it through you can visit the page and scroll down to the bottom to see the pics. If I decide not to keep this bow do you want to buy it?
http://www.****.com/itm/Fred-Bear-Kodiak-Hunter-Recurve-Bow-9T6427B-40-Nice-/141978432374?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=4v4oA%252F6yK5AbrFbhb80HANeA%252Bzw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_t rksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.****.com/itm/Fred-Bear-Kodiak-Hunter-Recurve-Bow-9T6427B-40-Nice-/141978432374?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=4v4oA%252F6yK5AbrFbhb80HANeA%252Bzw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
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Hmmm... that seemed to work so if anyone wants to see pics of the Kodiak Special Deluxe, here's the original listing page:
http://www.****.com/itm/Bear-Kodiak-Special-Deluxe-Recurve-Bow-Vintage-36-64-inch-RH-Right-Hand-/371620737357?nma=true&si=4v4oA%252F6yK5AbrFbhb80HANeA%252Bzw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt =nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.****.com/itm/Bear-Kodiak-Special-Deluxe-Recurve-Bow-Vintage-36-64-inch-RH-Right-Hand-/371620737357?nma=true&si=4v4oA%252F6yK5AbrFbhb80HANeA%252Bzw%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
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well, maybe it didn't work. The URL appears but navigation to the page doesn't seem to work.
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I can't make it work either. LOL I do want to see the Special Deluxe so keep trying. It is too bad that adding photos is so cumbersome but I understand the idea of letting someone else find the viruses and other bad stuff first.
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Lets try this:
(http://i.imgur.com/VeQnKw3.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ZUMMRcL.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/QwTkxPo.jpg)
I remember thinking that this KSD is in as good a condition as I've ever seen outside a collection.Nice bow.
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Here's your 1969 Kodiak Hunter.
(http://i.imgur.com/btegUiR.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/68uudEn.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/CY5UTLv.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/ml9XwC8.jpg)
Also a gorgeous bow in fantastic condition. I'm pretty certain its not zebrawood, however, but a 1969 tigerwood /blacktip variant.
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A 1969 Kodiak Magnum tigerwood /blacktip I fooled around with last fall.
(http://i.imgur.com/uYvgIu4.jpg)
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Thanks so much, mangonboat. Good job finding the pics and posting them. Now all those who are curious can see it... them. I got reprimanded for posting the links, too.
Yes, the Deluxe looks great. Can't wait to get it.
on the Kodiak Hunter, you may be right that it's tigerwood. To me zebrawood and tigerwood look pretty similar. I recall reading that the 69 model used tigerwood, but also that sometimes they used whatever wood was handy at the moment, for any particular bow. Either way it looks great. Your bow, too. I also got recently a 1968 Bear Cub, for a practice bow. 62", 29#, sea foam green on the back of the limbs and riser, and cream colored glass on the front. Most of them were made with maple risers but this one has zebrawood. It's a pretty little bow in its own way, and is fun to shoot without straining my muscles. I'm working on refinishing it.
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I think that vintage Cub with the seafoam green glass is great-looking bow and I bet its even more of a looker in zebrawood. You clearly have an eye...and a nose for finding...great vintage bows, and you are certainly correct that Bear produced some great one-offs during the 60's, especially. I'm "hunting" for a hunting weight (45-60#) 1962 Kodiak Special and it's been hard to sit on my wallet and not settle for one of several that have come along in the 30-40# range. I guess its my equivalent of waiting for a trophy buck, because I look for ugly spikes and dry does come fall.
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Thanks, magonboat. I think I'be been lucky finding bows, I'm a novice at it but I did read a lot about vintage models and what people liked. Finding where to look is as hard as finding the bow! Internet searches for used vintage bows doesn't turn up much that is useful. I was checking a forum's classifieds, which seemed to add new bows every day (not this forum's b/c I didn't pay for it), as well as the auction site and a few stores, and a regional C _ _ _ _ _ L _ _ _ (not sure if I can spell that out). On the auction site 3 times I bid, using a free snipe service, and won twice... my first auction site bids ever. It also helps if the person selling the bow doesn't know what they have! The guy selling the Cub had no idea what it was, he just inherited it and couldn't even tell me if it was right or left handed, had to send pics. The guy selling the Deluxe bought it in a lot of bows from a bow hunter, so he could get a PSE takedown for himself, selling the other bows to pay for it. He thought the Deluxe was a nice old bow but he didn't seem to have any idea of its value or history. Found that out after I purchased it, of course. I didn't want to make him feel bad so I didn't tell him he probably could have gotten twice as much for it. Keep looking I'm sure if you're patient and keep praying to the vintage bow Gods you'll find what you want. A little bit of obsession in constantly checking the auction site helps also. Their email alerts for specific searches takes too long to arrive if a bow is up for "buy now".
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2ndTime,
I started out not knowing much, still don't, but there are sixty five or sixty seven bows hanging on the living room walls now. My super clean 60 Deluxe was purchased when the market was hot and I paid around $1400 for it. Your Special Deluxe, or at least the part of it in the photographs, looks to be equally as nice. I am curious how much glazing there is in the glass. If there isn't much, you have some good trading material there.
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Hi Brad,
That's a lot but if you love it and can afford it, it must be worth it for you. I would have to build a new room to put bows on the wall... any bows! let alone dozens. And it wouldn't be a living room, not if my wife is living in it also. I'm not really a collector anyway, although I can see it's tempting. I'm just trying to find 4-5 bows I really like shooting. Maybe 2 or 3. I'll let you all know about the glass when I get it, but I am not planning on selling or trading it. The Kodiak Hunter, maybe.
BTW my name is Shandor... a Hungarian name.
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I've had a fair amount of success and pleasure by watching for underpriced bows. OTOH, one of the absolute dumbest things I've done is sell this '68 Grizzly. Yes, it is gorgeous. Yes, it is an ideal weight AND 56". Yes, I am a ------- idiot.
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7012/26384826633_66c456bc71_z.jpg)
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7387/26955520066_2d88116822_k.jpg)
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That is a beauty. I had a new Grizzly when I was 14... that would make it a 1968 also, tho I don't know, it might have been a 67 or 69. It looked like yours. Back then it was just a new bow but I loved it. With older brothers I can't remember a time we didn't shoot bows, but they were made from saplings and fitted with twine, and we made arrows from sprouts or saplings, too. We went through a lot of those! Then at 12 I got an all fiberglass bow and thought that was great. The Grizzly was a vast improvement. Sold it when I was 18, then it was just a used bow! Now it's a vintage bow. Does that make me a vintage person also?
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I had a new Grizzly when I was 14 ... that would make it a 1967. Lost track of it years ago when, as an idiot teenager, I quit doing field archery with my dad. (That's his selfbow in my avatar, made for him in 1943.)
So no, you're not quite yet a vintage person. ;)
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That's interesting... I think a lot of guys our age got a Grizzly when they were 14 or so. On Jeff Kavanagh's site he says he got a 45# Bear bow around then too. I don't think it was a Grizzly but he loves the one he has now. Only difference is he kept shooting.
If you want to collect another bow, and maybe do some shooting with a grandchild or other kid, there's an unusual one on the auction site now. A 1969 62" Alaskan, only 20#s, with bright light green limbs and a beautiful medium dark wood riser, maybe a type of rosewood. It would make a great bow for someone who needed a very light bow.
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The Kodiak Special Deluxe is finally here... and so is the Kodiak Hunter. The hunter arrived in excellent packing, bubble wrapped, secured in the box, more bubble wrap. Unfortunately I cannot say the same for the Deluxe. It came in a box that was too small to add much packing, it just had a few foam peanuts in it, and one of the tips was sticking out of the box. Fortunately it did not seem damaged. It also had not been cleaned at all, and looked a lot worse than in the photos, with wax all over, smudges, specks of paint or something like it, and old glue where the strike plate and worn out feather rest were peeling off. Not sure what to do... should I write a bad review for the seller on the auction site? Just send him an email? It was a sacrilege, but on the other hand he seemed to think it was just an old bow so the price was low.
I think we can also settle the question of whether this bow can be strung and shot or not. Whoever had it obviously used it. Sadly, the string I had custom made for it has not arrived yet so I'll have to wait to shoot it.
The good news is it cleaned up well. A little denatured alcohol, careful scraping, and patient rubbing have gotten almost all the junk off it. And it is a beauty! There's no clouding in the clear glass. There's one or maybe two very small stress cracks in the limbs. I'll have to use a magnifying glass to be sure. There is no delamination. The riser is in great shape, except a slightly worn area in the finish where the bow hand grips it.
I was impressed with how well the ow feels in the hand... to use the old saying, it fits me like a glove. No wonder people love these models and similar ones. And I didn't even shoot it yet. The riser is much wider and more massive than I thought from the photos. I'm already in love with this bow.
While I'm waiting for the string I'll look it over again and put a new feather rest and strike plate on it. Any advice is welcome.
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Shandor, one thing you can do while waiting on your string is give that newly-cleaned KSD a coat of high quality paste wax to protect it.
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Thanks, that's a good idea. I have some Daddy Van's beeswax furniture polish that worked well on another bow. I got the old feather rest and side plate off and all the old glue, I'll replace those first. I'm wondering whether to repair the couple of stress cracks in the limbs first with Loctite 420. I also found a small gap between one of the tip overlays and the end of the limb lamination which looks like a candidate for Loctite. The only problem is I don't know how to apply it without some of it getting on the rest of the bow and not just in a crack, and since it doesn't need refinishing I don't want to have to sand it off. Any ideas? Guess I'll do some research on that.
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Originally posted by 2ndTimeShooter:
I was impressed with how well the ow feels in the hand... to use the old saying, it fits me like a glove. No wonder people love these models and similar ones. And I didn't even shoot it yet. The riser is much wider and more massive than I thought from the photos. I'm already in love with this bow.
There is certainly a progression in the Bear risers through the years. My '58 Kodiak has the smallest grip in my collection (excluding the non-Bear selfbows). I don't have a '59, but the Paxton Talon Swift I have was modeled on the Kodiak of that year and the grip is a tad bulkier. The De Luxe carries this on in about the same increment. The '66 K Mag is what I would call nearly massive but still eminently shootable. I recall that '68 Grizzly as being even a bit bulkier. My non-shootable '70 Super Kodiak hearkens back to the '59 and '60 versions.
The odd thing is, I find all of them a pleasure to hold and shoot, notwithstanding their differences. OTOH I've hated the grips on the Gainesville bows I've held (which obviously have not included the newish '59 replica or anything of that ilk.)
There are plenty of folks here who know way more than I do about this riser history, so I'll clam up now.
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I've only had the pleasure of holding a few bows, my original Grizzly, a 2014 Super Kodiak, the Kodiak Special Deluxe, the 1968 or 9 Kodiak Hunter, and the 1968 Bear Cub. You're right, they all fit well and are nice to hold. I guess the human hand is quite adaptable. So far though I like the feel of the Kodiak Special Deluxe best, I can't explain why.
On another subject, has anyone used wax on a limb around a stress crack, before injecting it with Loctite 420, to keep the overflow from getting on the limb? I thought of it and then did a search and found that people who repair old wood smoking pipes use wax or oil for that purpose, as well as some who repair guitars or furniture. If it works it could be a good way to repair a stress crack without having to harm the finish, or having to refinish.
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Loctite 420 is designed to flow easily which is what makes it wick into cracks so well...the first thing one needs to do, and I learned this from experience, is use a small needle syringe to place it...certainly your idea of using wax around the crack has merit as well
DDave
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Thanks DDave. I have a syringe and Loctite 420 but when I looked more closely at the cracks in the limb, there is not even a gap to insert a needle. I would have to remove all the finish first, which I'm not going to do so I'll just leave it the way it is. I've been shooting it and love it... although it's taking some time to stretch the new string, and the correct spined arrows I ordered are not here yet.
Meanwhile, I found a 1961 63" 30# Kodiak Special w/zebrawood riser that I'm buying for $125. The riser is of course beautiful but will need some refinishing of the varnish, which I can do. It's being sold by a hunter who had to hang up his bows due to an injury... another one (same story with the Kodiak Special Deluxe I got). I plan to use it to replace my 29# cub for practice shooting, it also has a zebrawood riser but is not nearly as pretty. Anyone want a Cub?
Maybe I am lucky finding nice vintage bows. Or it's beginner's luck. I'm not really collecting, just looking for a few of the type of bows I like (1960-62 Kodiak models) in different weights, for shooting. But at this rate I may wind up collecting if I'm not careful! Seems to be addictive. How do all you guys find the great bows you have?