Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: warpedarrow on May 02, 2014, 09:27:00 AM
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I am not as active at buying as I was a couple of years ago but I have recently started dipping my toe in the water so to speak. I'm seeing bows sell for half of what they probably would have sold for a couple of years ago. Some of the prices are a screaming buy to me. I bought a bow this morning for several hundred less than I paid for a similar bow just eighteen months ago. Is everybody sitting on the sidelines or are times really that tough out there? :dunno:
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I think "bow collecting" reached a peak 10-15 years ago and has yet to fully recover. There are still hard-nosed collectors out there, but the "toe-dippers" have mainly sold, traded, downsized, or just moved on to something else.
Good used bow prices are down quite a bit and all one needs is a little patience and a little cash to score some good deals.
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I'm just a toe-dipper but I believe a lot of the serious collectors are people that were around and enjoying archery in the fifties, sixties and early seventies. Those same people are in their sixties, seventies and eighties now. Purely speculation on my part but I don't see the same interest in collecting from a large group of younger generation that didn't have that same connection with the past.
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people are starting to get intrested in the "new 40 year old bows" from the 70's that most Grayling 59 Kodiak guys werent intrested in-Kodiak Hunters,Magnums,Stuff like Tigercats and target bows.
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I appreciate old bows and gear but do not have the time nor the resources to be a "collector".
I see a lot less traffic on the collector and history forum. Its kind of sad because I love hearing and seeing about all the neat stuff out there.
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Jack is spot on.
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it has been a blast for me, started about eight years ago. at first was unable to find anything at a reasonable price. lost alot of auctions on the big site. have learned a bunch about dating the Bear bows and also the history behind them. now have a few friends into collecting and shooting them also. with patience and persistence have found some really nice collectible Bear Archery items and met a bunch of great guys with same interest along the way.yes, it is true, seems prices have dropped in past few years. maybe it is because more items have surfaced via the internet and not just found locally.
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I agree with Jack, I have gotten to the age that I am starting to part with the collection due to family health issues and many other issues that come when you get older. I do enjoy putting items from my collection in the hands of new traditional shooters and collectors. I know there are younger traditional archers out there that have the enthusiam for collecting the old treasures as much as I did for many years. Sometimes life just gets in the way and you have to part with the things you collected over the years. That auction site also has brought the price down as it shows that some items are more available than they were back in the day.
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As a collector myself; what once excites me no longer does. First I wanted a 57 and 59 kodiak a few years back. I ended up with around 5 or better 59's and 3 57's. Then I was searching for a signed bow. I now can't count the number come and gone. After that came my yern for a Grumley which I found a takedown on ****. Since I have owned 6 Grumleys and down to two. Then I got into the harder items to find. Bought my Stickbowman signed type 1A handle last year. My next big purchase was a few months back with Fred's personal bow. When you get to the point I have been fortunate enough to; the commons you once . dreamed of are no longer of interest and just passed along on **** unless an excellent deal to make money on. I am very fortunate at 38 to have obtained items, and made such excellent connections in only a few years. I am seeing old time collectors start to unload items, but the real good stuff has not hit the market yet.
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ECONONY is playing s big part. When the economy is good people are more apt to spend money on "toys. When that happens "supply and demand" takes over.
If a guy has $500 in a bow that is now available for $300, he will wait for the economy to get better before he puts it up for sale.
I have several bow that I would let go now but I would loose money. Not gonna happen.
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There are still a couple that I am looking for:
1963 dogleg Kodiak and a Grayling era takedown.
I have pretty much everything else that I thought that I wanted. Couldn't pass up the Kodiak Deluxe that was on the auction site this week. That makes my third Kodiak Deluxe along with two Kodiak Special Deluxes. I suppose that I could make room for a Grumley or two.
My present practice bow is a late sixties Kodiak Hunter at 50#. I kept looking at the grip on it for the past six months or so wondering if that grip was more my style. I tried it a couple of weeks ago and fell in love. That bow will really cast an arrow, too.
Not living in Michigan or close, I just don't run onto old Bear bows in garage sales or flea markets down here. Almost all of my buying has been off of the big auction with just a few bows purchased from individuals that I "met" doing those purchases. It has been a pleasant experience communicating with other collectors but I just wish that I lived where I could make it to some of the shoots and other gatherings that are held every now and then.
I don't know what drew me into collecting. I was just a kid during the golden era of archery. What exposure that I did have was through scouting and that was usually for just a week a year at scout camp. I dearly loved the rifle range in those days too. The only bow that I ever owned as a kid was a Kmart fiberglass two or three dollar long bow and some solid fiberglass arrows that were about as heavy as a fishing arrow.
I think Jack may have the best explanation. People that were in their twenties during the sixties are now getting on up in age. The newer crowd grew up on wheelie bows and are doing their best to take the arch our of archery.
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It will return......but the bow market devalued as the economy went down....an EXCELLENT time to buy some of the top end Bears.....they are still just as good a bow as last year...
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I just dabbled in the Bear Kodiak market buying two 50's and two 60's starting about 5 years ago. All four bows were in excellent condition which I think helped when I sold the 65 and 66, I basically held them for a few years and broke even. I switched to lefty and saw no need to keep the righties but I am currently hanging on to a real nice 59. I think the new 59 has also had a negative impact on the vintage 59 prices. I have seen 56" Kodiaks sell for over $900 recently on the big auction. Jim
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Jack is right on....Mr. Shanks AND Mr. Millet. When I started collecting in the early 70s you could pick up top line classic recurves for $25-100. No one wanted them. By the late nineties, xxxx had driven prices through the ceiling. I saw '59, 60, and 61 Kodiaks go for $2000 or more. I sold a pristine 40# '65 Kodiak for over $600, and it was the FOURTH one that had sold for that much in that same month!(and 40# bows were not so popular back then.) I kept most of my bows at the time, expecting things to continue to climb long-term. Didn't happen, especially for guys like me, who sought out the heavy weight bows because they were more rare(bad move!)
Things are different now! When one is getting older and doesn't want to saddle his family with years of work getting rid of his stuff, he should be realistic. Getting rid of several hundred bows in bad markets takes years, if you're not going to take a bath in the process. I almost never LOST money, but in the end, it wasn't all that great an investment. It's like guns: we fool ourselves into thinking that it appreciated incredibly, but if you take inflation and the number of years into account, some other investment choices could have done better(but NONE would have paid off in the satisfaction we received!)
Father Time marches on. I wouldn't trade anything for the experience, but I owe it to my family to make their lives easier. (They're still likely to cuss my memory anyway-I'm still leaving them a lot of stuff!
Back to the original post: yes, people are also sitting on the sidelines. I don't think many people feel flush with buying power right now.
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I think there is less show and tell because it can drive prices way up on what you are looking for... just look at Drakes or Sweetland arrows or or or
I was amazed at KH prices last year, along with Mag handles
I think there is a huge amount of new shooters in my area of So Cal and bows are not getting put in the garage sales and estate sales because the kids or whoever is in charge want to shoot grand pa's old bow and arrows, thank Hollywood for some of that
My shoulders are not happy anymore,so less shooting being done, but I am buying light weight bows and arrows while trying to forget I am now a toe dipper (lol thanks Lon)
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I have never bought bows as an investment but more on the lines of a cool very interesting hobby and chasing my youth. There are other places to place your money for growth. In the 50's and early 60's I could only look over the counter and dream of owning many of the bows I now have. NO WAY do I view myself as a serious collector (somewhere around 100 bows, "a toe dipper") but there have certainly been more then several individuals that fall in the category of "serious collector" that have shared some great info at this site in the past.
Not to say there are not some good deals for the savvy buyer out there but many of the bows I now see on ***y are in need of some serious work or of the lower end of the market. I also don't feel ***y can be used as a serious bench mark in price as it can be driven by a sudden emotion or ego. (as in I will have that at any cost) As stated above, a lot of high quality items are being left put away until the market changes and change it will. Many of the shoots I attend have archers showing high interest in archery history and the older classics. I get the feeling through conversations that accumulations have started and new collections are being formed.
I think olbowhntr is right on the money with the thought of movement of bows in the future so the family will not have to deal with it when passing on takes place. Besides, it's nice to see the dust come off and the bow placed in the hands of new owners. These old classics were meant to be bent and they still do the job very well!!!
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I am not a serious collector either, but with close to fifty bows on display in the living room my wife would argue that I am not only a collector but also a nut case.
My interest is not in obtaining every rare or oddball bow that comes up for sale. I want a representative sampling of bows from each era that Fred's company produced. The bows when displayed corectly tell the story of a company that started out simple with basic and somewhat crude bows. They innovated and in about twenty years were making a beautiful high quality product. Then, as happens to many companies, the quality started to slack off as the owner grew old and eventually sold out. The story of Fred Bear is as "American" as it gets when used as an example of what the "American Dream" is.
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Bradley
Absolutely right on with the displaying of bows correctly telling a story. Very neat to see the changes in technology and design and to visualize the thought process that took place in innovation at that particular moment!
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I am a very selective collector which means I do not often buy bows for my collection...I am still looking for a particular bow that I need to have to trade for a key bow to add to my collection...the good news is that bow will, as you noted, be nicely priced...the bad news is, because the prices have dropped drastically the owner is likely not interested in selling at this time...a double edged sword
DDave
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The market is off and the economy is down. Some collecting still going on but not near what it was 10 years ago. Everything goes in cycles I suppose.
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Fred Bear made the 1959 Kodiak for one year.
Now 1959 Kodiaks will be made every year until everyone on Earth that wants a 1959 Kodiak can have one!
Same goes with the mid-sixty Kodiaks being produced every day in Florida, and the brand spanking new rebirth of the disco decade Super Grizzlies, and now add to this more takedowns being cranked out than customers with ready cash.
The last ingredient? Consider all of the craftsmen making replica Bear bows and limbs and you can see that the market is saturated in 2014.
Great time to buy!
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Actually, if you want to collect recurves, now is a great time to buy them if you can find the right ones.
Although collectors that have invested in to recurves probably won't want to sell right now, e8ay will still have good deals on garage sale finds. Of course you may have to compete with collectors to get your hands on them.
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Dave,
I am sure he would sell, just not at a reduced rate for the times. Some special items will sell at full price to the right collector.
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Jack is spot on. The demographics of the larger pool of people who'd be interested in the bows of their youth are aging and dwindling.
There will always be collectors, just as guys will always collect old Winchesters and classic cars, but I can't see nearly as many younger bow hunters having the same connection with the old bows.
For myself, I'm from Michigan and used to visit the Museum as a kid, since we had to drive right past it on the way to a family cottage. I don't recall meeting Fred Bear, but we stopped in countless times, so it's likely. My dad is gone, so I can't ask him if we talked to Fred.
In addition, the very first deer in the very first archery season in the country was killed within a couple mile radius of my family hunting property and the old stories are of a few "crazy guys" actually using a bow and arrows in the late 1930's and 40's. From talking with a retired DNR biologist, it's possible that first deer hunt occurred on my land or the ever popular public land right next door.
My county was only one of two even open for the first archery season in 1937 and only a small part of the county was wooded and had "huntable numbers" of deer. Most of the county was deerless farm land, of that era.
So, I have an affinity to the past that others my age probably don't. Other than getting a good deal on a good old bow, why would any random 18-50 year old trad hunter want to shoot an old Bear or other vintage model, when more "modern" materials and string materials are out there? Some will, always, but not as many and the numbers will shrink.