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Main Boards => PowWow => Topic started by: Whip on December 15, 2007, 10:53:00 AM

Title: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 15, 2007, 10:53:00 AM
I've never built a selfbow before.  I started on a stave a few years ago and chased a ring on the back, but have left it sit ever since.  I was unsure of what to do next so I figured doing nothing was safest.  Well, it's time that chunk of wood decides what it wants to do with the rest of its life - be a bow, or become firewood.  

There is a thread running now asking were the bow builders were.  I'm hoping they come out of the woodwork to give me some advice and see if we can get this thing shooting arrows.

Here is where I'm at right now.  The stave is shaped out, and I've got it bending to 50# @ 20" in this picture.  I think I know what I need to do next, but I'll ask the experts here to chime in and make sure I'm on the right track.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010534.jpg)
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Linc on December 15, 2007, 11:12:00 AM
Whip, I'm no expert but you are coming along great with your first attempt IMHO. Left limb looks a bit stiff on the outer segment.I assume the left limb is going to be the lower limb?What is the current length?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: BamBooBender on December 15, 2007, 11:27:00 AM
I agree with Linc. Was the left tip curved up a bit? It looks like it has a slight recurve.
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 15, 2007, 11:50:00 AM
The left limb is supposed to be the top limb.  Total length right now is 64".  If I understand it right the top limb should be a bit longer, and on this stick there were more knots on that end so I made that one the top.  

The left tip is a bit recurved - nothing I did, it is naturally that way.  There is a fairly big knot just a few inches out from the tip that is causing it.  Should I either try to take that out with heat or add a bit to the other limb to make them the same?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Pat B on December 15, 2007, 11:58:00 AM
Your tiller looks good so far. Both tips look a bit stiff. I usually leave the last 6" of each limb stiff. You are getting nice even bending right off of the handle area although the right limb could bend a bit more just off the handle.
  Take it slow and easy and you will have a shooter before you know it.  Nice work so far.   Pat
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Eric Krewson on December 15, 2007, 12:55:00 PM
Right limb, too much bend about a foot in from the tip.

I am always pushing people to make and use a tillering gizmo. I am sure people getting tired of me posting a link but the darn thing really works.

http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=033419
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Traxx on December 15, 2007, 01:02:00 PM
I believe,im gonna hafta go with Eric,on thisn.
Eric,
You only had to show that Gizmo once to Hook me.
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 15, 2007, 01:35:00 PM
Already on it Eric. Bet this is the fanciest one you've seen.  Made it up from a chunk of scrap that Dave Dwyer gave me for making knife handles with.
(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010535.jpg)

You're exactly right too.  According to the gizmo the right limb is bending too much past the halfway point.  I also think the left limb is too stiff out closer to the tip and in one small area about 10" out from the fade.
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Eric Krewson on December 15, 2007, 01:40:00 PM
Now that's a GIZMO!
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: John Scifres on December 15, 2007, 03:46:00 PM
Here's how I see it.  Green means go, red means no.

 (http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/P1010534.jpg)
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Walt Francis on December 15, 2007, 07:07:00 PM
WOW, my GIZMO's aren't that perty!!!  I agree with Eric and John.
John, what editing program are you using?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: mmgrode on December 15, 2007, 11:29:00 PM
John and Eric are right on.  Left limb is stiff and stay away from the red spot.  Not to complicate things, but in order to balance the limbs out the left limb(top limb) should be a bit weaker than the lower limb.  1/4" to 3/16" further to the string on my bows.

How did you end up dealing with the knot Joe?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 15, 2007, 11:57:00 PM
The knot ended up not being a problem at all really.  I hadn't realized how much wood needed to be removed yet, and once I got at it I was able to remove the whole knot.  All that's left is a bit darker wood in that spot.

Here's where I ended the night.  Strung profile, and then one showing 50# @ 26".  If I'm seeing it right I need to work the right (lower) limb in the area after the fade.  

I can really tell that things move much quicker now.  Very little wood removal makes very noticable differences.  

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010540.jpg)

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010541.jpg)
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Holm-Made on December 16, 2007, 01:33:00 AM
Nice job so far.  The right limb sure looks like it bends very nicely, maybe a little stiff near the handle.  I wouldn't touch the middle of the left limb.  The outer 10" of the left limb looks stiff.  

This is what I see.  Don't take my advice until some of the big self bow boys chime in though.  Chad
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: NorthShoreLB on December 16, 2007, 05:37:00 AM
Get rid of the stick, ...if it takes more than a couple of seconds to take the pictures your bow is taking unnecessary punishment being left drawn on that stick.

..a bit uneven, but looking pretty good so far
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 16, 2007, 09:27:00 AM
Thanks Manny, I hadn't realized that.  It does pretty much have to be on the stick to use Eric's gizmo though - do you just use that at a partial draw and adjust from there?
Thanks for the input.  I'm getting nervous about going to fast now, but still think I need to work on the right limb?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: George Tsoukalas on December 16, 2007, 09:58:00 AM
LOL, Manny. You beat me to it. Whip, left limb needs to bend more nearer the handle. It is beginning to bend TOO much right at mid limb. Right limb looks pretty good. However, if you haven't hit full draw I would make all tiller corrections now from fades to mid limb.  Almost there. Looking good. Jawge
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Shaun on December 16, 2007, 11:02:00 AM
Looking great Joe. Careful use of the scraper and remember to excersize the bow to let the change set in after each scraping. I like to start shooting with a short draw at this point. It really helps to have someone take a picture of the bow being drawn by you. Tiller tree does not always tell the whole story.
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 16, 2007, 11:18:00 AM
Alright - got it - left limb near the handle.  But since the left limb is already bending more than the right don't I need to also work the right to help it "catch up"?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Shaun on December 16, 2007, 12:46:00 PM
The tiller tree may not show upper vs lower limb work as well as the other use for the word "tiller", that is the brace height difference at the fades. Most often this is 1/8 to 1/4 inch more at the upper fade. Also, the tiller tree does not hold the bow exactly the same as your hand. A picture at hand draw or looking in a mirror will give a better view of the actual dynamic. Try these methods before trying to make it look balanced on the tree.
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: NorthShoreLB on December 16, 2007, 01:02:00 PM
I'm 100% with Shawn, I've only started to use a tree recently,and I still only use it for the beginning tillering, I much prefer a mirror in the latest stages
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 16, 2007, 01:02:00 PM
Here's a picture at partial draw.  Measured tiller shows no difference from the top to bottom limb right now.

(http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010543.jpg)
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: NorthShoreLB on December 16, 2007, 01:08:00 PM
Looks better in your hand than on the tree   :bigsmyl:
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 16, 2007, 09:51:00 PM
Here is the latest progress for tonight.  Tiller is + 1/8" on the upper (left limb)  On the scale it is pulling 53# @ 28".  I normally pull to 29" on my other longbows, but I wonder if I will lose a bit on a selfbow?  

The first picture shows it drawn to about 26" (I just pulled it back and snapped a quick one Manny  ;)  )

What do you think?  I don't have much room left if I want to keep it around 50# at my draw.  It sure doesn't take much scrapping to make a change now!  I've been using it carefully so hopefully won't need much final sanding.

 (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010545.jpg)

 (http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y80/Jlasch/P1010549.jpg)
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Whip on December 16, 2007, 09:56:00 PM
One other question for you.  How sharp should the radius from the edge of the limb to the back be?  Right now I have it with a pretty tight radius - just ran the scraper along it to take the edge off.  Should it be more rounded than that?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: mmgrode on December 16, 2007, 11:04:00 PM
Looks like she's really coming along nice Joe!

Yup, it's about that time of the night...time to take the edge off   ;)   (Sorry, couldn't help myself)   :)  I just round that front edge till it's aesthetically pleasing, but not too much. You want to maintain the structural integrity of that single ring on the back as much as possible. At the same time too sharp of an edge can have a tendency to lift splinters if not taken care of.
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Walt Francis on December 16, 2007, 11:05:00 PM
Looking good Joe!!  Might want to take a little off the bottom limb to lower any weight, though I like the look if the bottom limb better then the top one.  I agree with Manny, it looks better when you draw it then when it's on the tillering tree.
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Jeremy on December 17, 2007, 08:04:00 AM
Looking good!  I'd put the scraper away and start shooting it (short drawing to 28") to really let the changes set in.  You may find the tiller will change slightly (or significantly) and you'll likely lose some weight as well.  Go back and finese the tiller after 100 shots or so and you'll be good.  :D
You made the lower limb shorter, correct?  I've found the short limb tends to lose weight after 50-60 shots and I need to retiller - anyone else find this?
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Shaun on December 17, 2007, 08:07:00 AM
In the last picture it looks like you may have your string hand high. Try squaring across from your arrow rest point and setting a nock point about 3/8 above that point and getting a picture with an arrow. Be careful, my mind tells me to let go of the arrow and it takes effort not to shoot. If you use a known length arrow it helps tell how far you are drawing.

I do draw self bows less than glass bows. Something about a lower wrist grip and the fact that I tiller short self bows to stack about at the end of the draw.

Your bow is looking great! Very nice work on a first bow. Way to go Joe!
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: John Scifres on December 17, 2007, 10:42:00 AM
(http://residents.bowhunting.net/sticknstring/whip02.jpg)

Walt, I use either MS Paint or a freeware version of Photofiltre.  But anything will do.

Here's what I've grown fond of doing at this final tillering stage.  I've done this since I read Dean Torges' article on balance (  "Tillering the Organic Bow" (http://www.bowyersedge.com/organic.html)  ) earlier in the year.  I like to measure the halfway point on my bows and use that as the fulcrum.  Then I like to measure the half way point on the string at full brace and use that as my pull point for the tiller tree.  Then I tweak tiller until it is perfect.  The tuning will tell you where to nock your arrow and set your arrow rest.  I have been extremely happy with the results.  It makes a bow quieter, easier to tune, and sweeter to draw and shoot.  It was the missing link in making a good, shootable selfbow for me.

Whip, you are doing a great job on this bow.

Happy Holidays!

John
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: Bjorn on December 17, 2007, 08:56:00 PM
Nice job Whip-that is turning out to be a beauty! This thread has come at a perfect time for me. My Dryad stave will be here soon. Jeremy, you have been holding back about your extensive skills again!
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: BMN on December 19, 2007, 11:55:00 AM
TTT. Great looking bow. I'm in the middle of my first osage selfbow as well so I've really enjoyed watching your progress. Is it finished?

Bill
Title: Re: Help Me Tiller #1
Post by: onemississipp on December 19, 2007, 02:46:00 PM
I jumped in late, but looks like it went well!!!

Nice bow you have there. The tillering tree or stick will show a different bow than one thats in the hand.

Congrats on your bow!