Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: johnnyrazorhead on May 22, 2012, 12:43:00 PM
-
I recently picked up this bow on the big auction site.Normally I don't really care for the factory camo Bear bows.Most of them were made with such beautiful wood that I hated to see covered up by ugly camo paint.But after following the thread on that camo '66/'67 Kodiak or Super Kodiak that Vintage-Bears now has,I just had to get this one.Anyone that knows me knows how much I DON'T like to alter an original bow.Sometimes to make one shootable for regular use it may be necessary but I personally prefer a 100% original finish over a re-finish any day.That's just me.How many factory camo,1960's Kodiak Magnum's have ever been seen?I can't recall ever seeing one.Not saying there aren't more out there,I just don't recall seeing them.If someone hadn't thought to remove that unsightly factory camo from Phil's bow,we would have never been fortunate to see the gorgeous,one-of-a-kind all black phenolic riser and brown glass beauty that lurked beneath.It could have existed for another 40+ years covered in that ugly,drab paint.Thankfully Phil and the gentleman that sold it to him had the foresight to explore what was hidden beneath.
This little K'Magnum is in very nice,100% original condition.No holes,original side leather plate and rug rest,silkscreens,pewter coin,and original specs written in black.A perfect 55#.The bow appears to be either a '61 or '62 K'Mag,both beautiful bows,much nicer looking if the wood were shown.I can't help but wonder what lies beneath this camo paint.Especially after recently aquiring that beautiful little EXP marked '61 K' Mag with the white glass and black & white overlays.Perhaps another odd-ball,almost one-of-a-kind lies just beneath.What is Bear hiding under that camo paint I wonder?
Do I throw caution to the wind,go against my better instincts and remove the camo paint and see what's underneath?Looking closely even with a magnifying glass I cannot tell the glass color or the riser wood as the factory camo finish is still covering most all of the bow except for a few places along the edges of the limbs,and all I see there is maple laminates.If I remove even a small portion of the paint,the original factory finish will be compromised and the 100% original bow will no longer be 100% original.On the other hand,if I do remove the camo paint and the bow turns out to be just another run of the mill K'Mag,I really won't be out a ton as far as investment goes and would still have a great little hunting bow in a premium weight.But then I will regret having altered an original Bear bow in very nice condition,even though it is factory camo.
Phil,I have a feeling I know what you would do in this instance.What about some of you other Tradgangers? Should I strip it down and hope I found some more "Bearied-treasure" or leave it alone and wonder forever what lies beneath?
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55001.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55002.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55003.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55006.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55004.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55005.jpg)
-
Next to the EXP K'Mag:
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55007.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55009.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55008.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55010.jpg)
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/FactorycamoKmag55011.jpg)
:banghead:
-
Just because it is a 61 or 62 would make it a no brainer to get that paint off. I would have started already.
-
strip.... and I'll stuff a dollar bill in your garter....
-
Chuck-Am I teasing you again? LOL :nono:
That would be my next question,how do I go about removing the factory camo paint.I know from other Bear bows I've seen,that stuff is a pain in the rear to remove.Any suggestions that won't take me a month of Sundays to complete.Keep in mind,I am NOT a talented bow re-finisher.
-
John, interesting question.
My decision to strip the 66/67 Kodiak was hard........but easy at the same time.
20% or more of the camo paint was already removed when I got it. It was clear what color the glass was and that solid phenolic riser was exposed. It was clearly different from any other Production Kodiak bow so I moved forward and tickled with my decision.
I typically would never alter an original vintage-bear bow as I also prefer 100% original specimens.
Your decision John. Keep us posted......Philip
-
Phil- you make some great points.It would be a much easier decision on my part if the bow had already been "started" to be stripped and I could tell what the glass color was and/or what the riser looked like.I doubt it will turn out to be the rare beauty you have un-earthed but it still leaves me curious.Wouldn't it be cool if it was an all black Kodiak Magnum with brown glass?Hmmm.....now where's that darn sandpaper.
-
LEAVE IT AS IS
-
John,
If you must..... Rubber gloves, acetone and 15 minutes.
The camo comes of fairly easily.
.......Philip
-
Johnny,I have a KMag68 factory camo and from the missing finish I can see some features common to both the 68/69 quite different,i think mine has no value since I experimented some changing in the shelf area cutting and chopping wood,but this can tell you that maybe they used something the was not supposed to finish in the stores,so some were painted,for sure not the rule.
I job is in the fine arts business and usually we have restores making some "test windows"to see what is hide under the top finish,you can do that without altering the interest of the bow.If this is accepted by museums and art collectors for painting wothing several milions I don't see a reason why it can change the value on a couple of hundreds bucks bow.IMHO.
-
Sr. Cacciatore has the right idea: just strip off a small area to see what lurks beneath. It would be very simple to restore the colour that you have removed if the sampling turns up nothing interesting.
-
The excitement is in the unknown. The disappointment is finding out that it is nothing out of the ordinary and realizing you now have an altered bow. With all of the wonderful examples you have of the unique and unusual why not leave it alone and enjoy your imagination. I myself would leave it as it is, but the decision is ultimately yours. As Felix so honestly points out, It's not a great deal of money but perhaps a small area to satisfy your curiousity that could easily be blended in.
-
Felix- That sounds like a good idea if my curiosity gets the best of me.I could remove a small portion of paint from the riser and from a limb to check out the glass color and riser wood.Whether or not I could replace the camo to match the original is another story.
Phil- I will keep the acetone in mind if I decide to experiment if it works as well as you say.
Larry-I agree with you as well.Once the finish is removed,even a small portion,the bow is no longer original.And I wonder if I could match the original camo.That could be a real challenge.
Then on the other hand,as you and Felix point out,the bow is not worth a ton of cash anyhow,not like for instance a type I riser or an old Grumley bow might be.I just really don't like the look of the camo paint,as original as it is,as opposed to some nice,vintage wood.
I will give it some good consideration.
-
I like the idea of a test point. Hey why not carefully remove the strike plate and check behind it. Save the original and put it back on if you dont go all the way.
Andy
-
Andy-I'm liking the idea of a test point too.Removing the strike plate would allow me to check the riser wood to see if it's anything special.I would still want to check the glass color.But that's a good place to start and I could easily glue the strike plate back and cover up any test area.Great idea!
-
Nice bow John. I am thinking the same as Andy, lift a corner of the strike plate and peek. Unfortunately that won't tell you if it's a one piece or a multi-piece riser, maybe lift the rug as well? How about removing the camo in the edge of the lower string groove? That is a normal wear area that would be covered by the string plus you could see the glass and tip colors...
I like it for what it is but I would definitely check out what it could be!
-
Johnny,
Can't you see what is there through some of the wear marks?
I can see some of the wood on the corner of the shelf,and some white overlays,and maybe some brown glass thru a paint chip on the limb. But you know better as you have the bow in hand.
I just have pics.
But as Phil said, acetone and a rag will make the questions go away. :)
I would leave it tho.
I think. now I am curious too!
-
Chuck- There is some brown wood showing on the edge of the shelf,good observation.The bow appears to have been used a bit as the camo on the grip area where your hand would go seems to be much more shiny,thinner and smooth than other areas of the bow where it is more of a matte look and feel.There are a couple of small chips around the grip overlays where small portions of the glass can barely be seen,and one spot on a string groove on the tip.Very small amounts of the glass are visible and do appear to be sort of a creamy/greenish color much like a '62 would have.There are no areas on the limbs showing the glass color.The brown that you see is areas of brown camo paint under the green paint.Still curious as to the wood in the sight window and limb glass color.I will keep looking with my magnifying glass for more worn and/or thin areas.
Now I feel like a detective.I don't think I've ever inspected a bow so closely before as this one.
-
"....speaking words of wisdom, let it be, let it be..."
Maybe I will start collecting factory camo bows. I find them interesting.
If you do strip it be sure to post pics. It's likely a beautiful piece of wood.
-
Hey John, You could always add a leather grip and that would give you a large area to look at, just a thought, Bear did put custom grips on there bows for customers....like that 64 griz I have from Floyd ......Hink
-
ceme24-That very same Beatles song popped into my mind when I first posted this thread.I guess that would be Paul McCartney's advice if I were to ask him what he would do.LOL
Bill- That's a great idea too.I always did like the leather grips on the Kodiaks that came with them.Don't know if I could do a very good job putting one one myself,but I know a few guys that could so that is another option I hadn't thought of.Thanks for the suggestion.
-
maybe you could be the first to have an MRI done on a bow.that is the only way i can think of finding out without taking off the finish.I would leave it because it is factory paint and it looks awesome.
-
I think it's going to drive you crazy, so you may as well just do it. I would. IMO there was nothing really attractive about the factory camo. But, the wood underneath...that's another story. Be sure to show us the results !!
-
John, If it were a solid phenolic riser wouldn't it be a lot heavier bow ?, you should be able to rule that out without touching the paint. I haven't weighed any of mine but they feel heavier.....myself I like the camo, :) my earliest is Bob Meeker’s K-4 with compass in grip and 3 arrow quiver
What ever you do is right. :thumbsup: ..have a good weekend and holiday....Hink :cool:
-
Boy- The opinions on stripping or not stripping are pretty equal.I read one post about why I shouldn't strip it and I agree,then I read another one why I SHOULD strip it and agree with that too.
I know if I even strip a small portion of the paint,I am going to want to just finish the job and strip it all off.
On the other hand,as much as I don't like camo covered bows,this little bugger is actually starting to grow on me.If the camo were even more worn and chipped in spots,or the bow had some holes drilled in it,it would be a whole lot easier for me to just go ahead and do it.Knowing this is the way it came out of Grayling makes it very hard for me to do it.I am still pondering all of the suggestions.Luckily I have still been working long hours so I haven't had time to even consider doing it even if I wanted to.Maybe that's a good thing.
Bill- The bow doesn't feel unusually heavy and going by the small wear mark on the edge of the shelf,I do believe the riser is wood,I'm just curious as to the glass color now and if it is standard glass along with the wood,I would really be interested in knowing why it was camo covered at all.
-
So... How did the bow turn out John?
-
Kenny,
I actually got rid of the bow before I did anything to it.I was very tempted to remove the paint to see what lied beneath but I just couldn't bring myself to doing it.I knew once I even started removing any of the original factory camo paint then the bow would no longer be factory original.And I am not a bow-refinisher and didn't want to make a mess of a very nice,original Bear bow.It's that ridiculous collector mentality of mine.If the bow wasn't in such nice condition with most all of the factory camo intact as well as the hand written specs,leather arrow plate and rug rest,not to mention the perfect draw weight of 55#,I might have been more inclined to attempt removing it.But I figured if I did remove the paint and it was just a run o' the mill '62 Kodiak Magnum,then it's value would be less than if left alone.So I decided to part with it in it's original condition to fund some other items.
When I saw this thread brought back to the top of the forum after so long I thought that perhaps the new owner decided to remove the paint and was showing off the rare,one-of-a-kind Kodiak Magnum that he un-covered.Ah well,maybe if he sees this thread and was brave enough to remove the paint he will tell(and show) all of us,myself included,what lurked beneath.Maybe it's a mate to Phillips black phenolic with brown glass 66/67 Kodiak.That would be just my luck!!! :biglaugh:
-
You guys! They're just bows! Yeah, there might be another one like Philip's out there(I saw that bow and I'm damned envious!) But, it wasn't a Magnum, and I've had those from every year up until about '75. Never found one that I enjoyed shooting. (No offense to anyone who did.) If I couldn't tell any other way, I'd strip a small spot on every camo'd magnum I could find. If it told me something intriguing was under there, I'd go for it. Life is short! Worst case, I'd do a little refinish and sell it to some local who wants a shooter! But, that's just me.
-
Ask yourself one simple question: Is this a collector bow with value (subjective)?
I'm sure most would agree.......nothing significant there. As value is truly subjective, especially in today's market, I would have never asked "the" question.........that ol' girl would have been stripped and, if the wood was pretty nice, already snapped a few photos with her clothes off!!!!
Besides.......Tom said it all in his post above!
Hope the new owner is happy with it (and has peeked under her dress!).
-
Well, JRH, that was one way to solve the dilemma !
-
anything special that could be hidden behind a factory camo 64 k mag?
-
John's bow was a 61 or 62 KM. The 61 of course was a first year model. The 62 shared everything with the 61 KM except it had gray glass and brazilian rosewood.
Hard to say if anything "special" would be hidden under the camo of a 64 KM. Nothing unique or special about the bow.....other than Fred noted that the 64 KM was the most important bow they ever built, but that comment was mostly related to previous "products" that didn't contribute to the financial stability of the company!
I've never seen a 64 KM that I would consider as having anything special about it, although if there is one out there that is unique, I'd bet that Al would have ended up with it at one point or the other.
-
Hey all,
Here's the bow as I bought it.
Almost impossible not to move forward after seeing the riser and brown glass. A no brainer really. It was crystal clear that this was a very special bow.
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/66PrototypeB.jpg)
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/rare004.jpg)
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/rare008.jpg)
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/67kodiak5.jpg)
I want this bow to be in another collectors hands someday that DISPLAYS bows and shares their history. The bow deserves to be seen and not tucked away.
I installed an original Bear rug rest and vintage strike plate. The bow is as built in 1966/67.
.......Philip
-
Maybe I will be so lucky to drive down to Brooklyn and buy it from you some day Philip. Uhhh scratch that driving in Brooklyn, I would meet somewhere on the outskirts. ;o)
-
Could you check under the leather; if you didn't like what you saw - easy fix ?