Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: 450 marlin on April 01, 2012, 09:22:00 PM
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One for the RH collectors listed 1962 Kodiak EXP #120889235565
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Very unique!
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That maple riser is pretty cool.
I had a 59 Kodiak that was "EXP-F"
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If that bow was 55#...........I would own it!
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Looks to me like someone attempted a refi on the bow, perhaps with some inferior materials. The scribbling is not original-who knows what was on there before. The wood did not scream 'maple' but I guess that is what it is.
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To me, the wood in the riser definitely does not look like maple, but rather looks like oak or ash.
Ray
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NumPls I believe is right on - it has an open grain appearance like White Oak or White Ash - I would guess the EXP is an alternative riser wood test. Either way it looks pretty ugly to me, and I agree the writing does not look very good, but I don't really know how they usually look (the EXP versions).
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well I actualy kind of think its really a very faded out piece of bubinga....please note the grain in your favorite figured bubinga riser bow and then check the auction pics....weird huh bd
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Maybe whoever buys it will take better pics and post them - then we can figure out what type of wood for sure?
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I stand corrected. I also now vote for ash in the riser.
But the writing looks very similar to the old 59 EXP I had. Not the typical Bear lettering but more of a Quick note to let the boss know what it was.
In gold ink as well.
CTT
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I've never seen one like that. Quite unique.
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Oak..........I am going to start posting a bunch of pics of some goofy stuff I have before I sell it all off. I have a 1962 Kodiak Prototype that has a solid walnut riser, 62 glass and 1961 tip and grip overlays. I'll get some pics in a few days. I wouild guess that bow listed is a 61 Kodiak prototype buy why in the world they used oak puzzles me.
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If it is an EXP I believe it must have lost it original writing and been redone in a very shaky hand or is poor mock up of one without researching what the real ones look like. If this link works you can see all of the penmanship is consistent and very different than what was done on this one. To my untrained eye there seems to have been the same two or so people doing the writing on these works of art that came out of that R&D de
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Oops...department. Here's the link http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=002798
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If you look at the writing on the boxes side by side with the enlarged photo of the bow I would say they are very close..the EXP..same..the 6..same ..the 4 .. same...guess I don't see nothing alarming in it..maybe just a few trying to keep the sale price within reach
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Yes I totally agree. It is very similar to the bad looking penmanship on the boxes, but there is such a huge contrast between that and the writing on other every known EXP, prototype or any other Bear bow ever produced, as far as that goes. It just doesn't seem less than very suspect or very questionable proof of being legit.
Speaking of suspect, the statement of "a few trying to keeping the sale price in reach" kind of leads me to take that same stance and have to wonder if someone here might possibly trying to drive the price up....Just as easily could be couldn't it?
The evidence available makes me fairly sure that the cutting edge R&D department of the 60's at Bear, run by Mr. Stewart didn't present anything to Fred Bear that was much less than perfect.
But who knows, hopefully whoever ends up with it will post better pics and more details about it.
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wow the lettering looks almost as bad as my hand writing.....that one may very well be a fake lettered after it left Grayling ????? hum bd
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Just my thoughts on the bow.
I do think the bow is dynamite. It's a very unique 62' and we know how amazing they shoot. I never saw one with wood like that and we will not likely see another.
The EXP looks legit to me and I did bid on the bow. I was immediately outbid so someone does appreciate the bow and realize its significance. Im thru bidding on it because of its low draw weight but honestly, if it was 50 # or more I would seriously pursue it.
We all prefer original finish bows but that one is well worth refinishing. Not only to make it amazing once again but to preserve it for future collectors.
Keep in mind, we don't live forever but with care, bows can!
PapaBear lives..........Philip
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I just wish the seller would add some pictures of the tips.
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He did add pics, just scroll down on the listing, I just checked them out last night
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With the seller's added photos now showing the green glass, I'm now leaning more toward what Steve called it....a prototype '61 Kodiak.
But who knows? They could have used any glass that was laying around. We've all seen non-"EXP" bows from various years that had odd glass applied.
Regardless, it's unique.
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holy begeeszus he loaded a couple pics of the tips ahh bd
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yeah it actualy looks hickory-ish to me too Rich (anyone see if it has an I-beam) You gotta remember too Bear was a little fussie about the looks of the riser and always wanted those some what good looking woods in the risers.Man oh man that 61 is about as plain jane as they get ahh bd
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Cool, I really like the Pictures of the tips, ALL 60 of them????????????????????? Whats up with that???
:dunno:
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61' prototype does make sense.
It's a really cool looking bow. That wood is gonna look amazing with a refinish.
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Philip y0u are speaking really affectionately about that bow! I would bid higher but I'm afraid of stealing it from you. Why don't you get it, refi it, post the pics and we will all be super envious!! :bigsmyl:
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Well, I wonder who it was??
Hope we can see some more pics.
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Someone wanted it dearly.........actually a few wanted it dearly!!
I hope it was someone here! Come on......out with it!! :smileystooges:
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Hi guys.
Like I said in my first post, if it were 50# or more, I would be interested in the bow. I bid $250 on it. Thats all it would be worth to me in its weight and condition. I can also see lots of stress cracks in the glass which is a turn off.
Still a very cool bow. It only takes 2 eager people to make for an interesting auction and I'm not one of them.
........Philip
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I placed a pretty good bid on it but was outbid.Hopefully someone will post some better pics.
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I want to propose a theory on how this EXP fits in to the Kodiak timeline (we will never know the truth, so why not guess).
The Bubinga handled '61 models all/most have badly cracked glass (is this true? those I have seen fit this description). This is said to have been from poorly dried riser wood? These also had a silver coin (not pewter). I don't know the exact timeline, but I guess the production of a new model is started the fall prior. So lets assume by December 1960 production is in full tilt.
We know that production is said to have finished out with the Walnut and Purple Heart I-beam handle right before the '62 Brazilian Rosewood Kodiak goes into production. Both of these bows have or are likely to have a pewter coin with black finish.
To summarize, 1961 Kodiak Variation one is Bubinga handle, last variation is Walnut and Purple Heart I-beam.
I would guess Bear EXP'ed with different handle woods before the Walnut and Purple Heart variation that seemed to have worked out better.
Since this EXP has the pewter coin with black finish I would guess it was an EXP made in the middle of the 1961 production run. It seems unlikely to me that it would have been a prototype for the 1961 model as it has what is more considered the 1962 coin, and also, the use of ash or hickory in the handle is not likely to have been something Bear would have considered to follow up the beautiful 1959 and '60 Kodiaks. It might be logical to guess they were testing alternatives to get them through the year until the new 1962 model would be introduced. I believe I also heard somewhere that the 1962's may have replaced the 1961's earlier than normal.
That is my GUESS. By the way, I too placed a relatively high bid (...and lost!). I still think it is ugly, but it would be a key component to any 1961/62 Kodiak collection for its historical value. I also would not consider refinishing it as there was some talk about the penmanship of the EXP. Well, if it is refinished and the writing is replaced by, say, Bowdoc, collectors 30 years from now will be matching up Bowdoc refinished bows and discussing how the same worker must have made these...they will probably assume they were special orders, maybe even written by Fred Bear himself.
If I had more cash, I would have put up a better battle!
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:help:
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Originally posted by Missaukee:
... I would guess Bear EXP'ed with different handle woods before the Walnut and Purple Heart variation that seemed to have worked out better.
Don - You propose some interesting thoughts throughout your theory. It is a shame the light wood riser bow has EXP rather than a serial number so it could be more accurately placed in its proper sequential order in the production of 1961 Kodiaks.
Food for thought. I have an I-Beam bubinga riser 1961 Kodiak with a black coin and with no stress in the glass and no stamp. I doubt that it is the only one with these characteristics.
I would offer that R&D was employed 365 days a year and worked on many of different things including cost reduction, as well as solving specific production problems. A bow marked EXP could have been marked such for many different reasons.
Because the light riser bow has numerous vertical stress cracks, it certainly wasn't a successful solution to the vertical stress crack problem, if that is what the intended purpose was.
We could also be missing some other reason that the bow was marked EXP.
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In regards to Wade's statement about the bow being marked EXP for some other reason not evident,I had aquired several bows from a former Bear employee that were marked EXP,some simply written EXP on a small piece of white tape.One of the bows I have is a 1956 Kodiak complete with serial number and specs as well as a compass in the grip like a Kodiak II.Since the "Compass Kodiak" was introduced 2 years prior to this bow I doubt that the compass was "experimental".Everything else looks like a regular '56 Kodiak in my eyes.One other bow marked EXP had another piece of tape on it with the name of a glue that was evidently used on the bow.I was told by the person I got the bow from that it was probably a new glue they were trying out.Everything else about that bow looked normal and if not for the tape with the name of the glue on it you would never know it was an EXP bow.
So there could be some other reason for the EXP marking,but the wood is definitely something not found on too many Kodiaks that I'm aware of.
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I've marked a few EXP myself over the years bd
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" It is a shame the light wood riser bow has EXP rather than a serial number so it could be more accurately placed in its proper sequential order in the production of 1961 kodiaks"
??? Really? That seems considerably less interesting than a possible one of a kind Kodiak popping up.
"I've marked a few EXP myself over the years bd"
Hopefully there's a smiley or a lol left off here.
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Originally posted by sticknstring+:
" It is a shame the light wood riser bow has EXP rather than a serial number so it could be more accurately placed in its proper sequential order in the production of 1961 kodiaks"
??? Really? That seems considerably less interesting than a possible one of a kind Kodiak popping up.
I'm going to go out on a limb on the light colored riser 1961 Kodiak and guess that it may not have been "a one of a kind" when it was produced.
I'm not a gambler, but I might even take a bet on that statement. It would be a bet I would enjoy loosing.
Greg, Having a bow marked EXP is cool, but the bow "is what it is" regardless of what is marked on it, EXP, a standard serial number or even no serial number.
Most Bear bows that are marked EXP have something that is different about them from production bows other than just the wood type.
Of all of the Bears marked EXP that you have, do any vary only in the wood type from the production model that year?
Some Bear bows that have no serial number or EXP marked on them are actually very different than the production model bows, and are obviously experimental bows.
Given the limited selection of photographs in the auction, we may be missing an obvious difference that would be evident upon personal inspection of the bow.
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Wade, I totally agree. I definitely skimmed your prior post a bit quickly. I hope the new owner shares a full evaluation of it here.
It does seem that the EXP's do usually vary from the production bows in more ways than wood type alone for sure.
Your attention to detail and quest for more than superficial facts is very admirable. Thanks for collecting and sharing the history.
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here's one I missed the detail on and it was very painful to say the least.I purchased a 1959 Kodiak 56" off a seller some years back.Everything looked correct riser wood lettering and fiberglass color(no pics of the limb tips).When I got the bow it was a 1959 Bear Kodiak 56" 50#.There was just one little thing that made this one different from all other 56" 1959 Kodiaks I'd ever seen.The ends of the limbs had been cut off and it looked like a 1959 Bear Kodiak long bow.Whom ever did do the work did a very nice job and the lettering did look almost factory.That one was a little tough for me to chew but not that bad with mustard bd
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Greg -
Hopefully we will soon have more information available about the light colored riser 1961 Kodiak.
Doc -
I have a 54-1/2" 1958 Kodiak with the rounded sight window & sow belly. I bought it years ago and used it for a filler bow until I found a nice 56" in the same model for the collection. The 54-1/2" bow has 1-1/2" missing from the lower limb.
Your 56" 1959 Kodiak story reminded of the 54-1/2" 1958 Kodiak and prompted me to look for it. Just found it in a big pile of extra old bows that I need to get rid of someday.
The Kodiaks in "Kustomized" lengths are great for a good laugh if you know what you are getting before you acquire a bow. If you don't know these "minor details", they can be a real disappointment.
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Wade - hopefully you'll take, then post, some better photos of that odd duck light colored 61 Kodiak!
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Tony -
I'm not promising my photography skills would be an improvement over what you have seen already.
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The light colored riser 1961 Kodiak arrived.
It is actually in much better condition than the auction photographs indicated. One of those rare pleasant surprises. You just never know for sure what condition a bow will be in when it arrives.
The only real issue are the vertical stress cracks on the back of the bow. The belly is pretty clean except for some green paint on the upper limb that can be easily removed as it easily flakes off with a light scraping of a fingernail.
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Here it is in a line up with the usual suspects of contrasting wood types of Kodiaks.
Who can name the year and riser woods of these five Kodiaks?
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/Kodiaks-1.jpg)
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1962 Kodiaks, Brazilian Rosewood... all of them.
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Magnificent photo!
One more pretty than the next.
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1962-Brazilian Rosewood
1962- Brazilian Rosewood
1961 Bubinga
1961 White Ash
1962 Brazilian Rosewood
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With asking for the year of the 5 bows and the wood types for each of the 5, there are a possible 10 correct answers.
In an effort to try not to reveal to everyone, the exact correct answers that are already posted, it seems fair to simply give 10% for each correct answer.
Chuck -
70% is your best possible score
Philip -
Thanks for the gracious comments.
Donald -
70% is your worst possible score
80% is your best possible score
At this point, I'm not 100% certain on everything so will give a best and worst possible score when appropriate.
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62-Rosewood
62-Rosewood
61-Shedua
61-Ash
62 Cocobolo
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L to R:
62 - Brazilian Rosewood
62 - Brazilian Rosewood with what appears to be a maple I-beam (possibly Bird's Eye)- would need a closer shot of that bow - great contrasting rosewood with the sapwood in the riser regardless. I've seen wide variance in BR, so it is always possible that the I-beam is just very light BR, but I doubt it.
61 - I would think it would be walnut with purpleheart SW, but this one could be faded or light bubinga and have a nicely figured PH SW that has oxidized. Or maybe a walnut SW!
61 - Your new ? bow - probably ash
62 - Brazilian Rosewood
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The middle bow may be an all Walnut bow? Other than that I can't be sure what else I answered wrong, so I will look forward to hearing the correst answers.
When I say "Walnut", I am actually not sure what species I am referring too, but I am certain it is not Black Walnut. I think they called it Tropical Walnut, and used it on the 59/60 Polar, the 61 Walnut/PH Kodiak, and a slew of other bows.
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What is the answer Wade?