I am just curious, so don't get a rope and a tree yet. I have never been to a competitive shoot, but have read the "class" regulations for longbow and recurve at some shoots.
The rules for some of these shoots state that anything other than longbows with wood arrows requires you to shoot in the "recurve" class.
I was wondering......if longbows are supposedly more forgiving/better shooting bows, then why are the more "high tech" options like carbon and aluminum only allowed in the recurve class? In my opinion, that seems to imply that recurves are more non-traditional or advanced because they allow you to shoot "less traditional" carbons/aluminum arrows in that class.
Theoretically, it would seem that if longbows are, in fact, more consistent/forgiving then everyone would shoot a longbow with carbons in the recurve class.
For what it's worth I shoot a longbow.
-Charlie
Many of the shoots around here allow both the longbow and recurve shooters to use any arrow. The classes are still divided, and when the scores are posted, recurve winners score higher than longbow winners. (Selfbow scores are lowest.)
It is rare indeed to have a longbow score higher than a recurve.
Interesting and good question. Assuming neither the longbows nor the curves are using sights, I wonder why the recurve scores tend to be higher.
because longbows are better :0) :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
IMHO They both are as good as the person shooting the bow.
Amazing - similar discussion on Ozbow website . One thought that sums this discussion up well is to keep in mind that the common goal is to promote Traditional Archery and shift the emphasis onto the cultural and historic value of the bow and arrow instead of on the perceived performance advantages .
You go nuts trying to put bows into neet little catorgory's , the harder you try to do that the more complicated things become . Very Compound of us . I agree that modern recurves and longbows have an advantage over a selfbow as do carbon and alloys over wood arrows and are a big part of modern traditional archery and need recognition .
I like the idea of having 3 simple divisions for wood arrow shooters
Traditional / Primitive
Modern Longbow
Modern Recurve
and if there is sufficient numbers [ in the United States of course there is ] divisions for those that use modern arrow materials with there modern Trad bows
At Cloverdale last summer the winning score in mens longbow and mens recurve was the the same. In the womens classes, the longbow score was higher. A few years ago, when he was a young fellar, the tradgang's very own Flatstick (Rich Jackson), won the selfbow class and shot the highest overall score at the shoot. Most times it ain't bow or the arrow, but the nut that holds the handle! Mike
Good input fellas.
Still, I wonder why they dont just put recurves and longbows with wood arrows into a category and then have a "whatever else without wheels" category.
I agree with Jacko, lets just promote traditional archery! However we do it.
-Charlie
I'd agree to a point. I'd allow any type arrows with the modern long bow or recurve but require wood only with the primitive class.
It is their game, and those are their rules. Sometimes I really believe that is the case..
ChuckC
The scores over the years at Rapids have been very close between Longbow and Recurve. We do not have arrow restrictions. Some times getting a 64" longbow shot off in a tight spot maybe a handy cap verses a 54" recurve.
I would disagree with Blackhawk and agree with Mike. Most shoots I have been too the LB top score is usually a longbow guy and I also believe if you were to tke the best shooters in the world and divide them in to recurve and longbow the longbow guys would win overall. Their are some great recurve shooters out there but most guys who shoot aspirin out of the air and put arrows thru engagement rings form 30 yards are longbow guys. Shawn
It is the guy behind the bow and if he is "on" that day. The class separation is so more people can get an award to promote participation. The different classes is very "Target Archery" oriented. If people would honestly look at themselves and accept their choice in equipment and its limitations in their hands all traditional shoots could have a mens, womens, youth, and cub class. Shoot whatever trad bow arrow you want, because the top dog that day will shoot the high score. Someone always will test the limit on technology or the norm and someone says "hey thats not fair, he should be in another class/division" We focus way too much on winning, and far too little on our own personal best with our chosen equipment. The classes division could get more absurd than it already is just think: 3-under recurve alum, 3-under recurve carb., split wood rec, split longbow wood, split longbow alum, add infinity!!! Someone has to set a rule, saying this is a dividing line for technology and technique. I just wish we could have tournaments that put more people together shooting with one type of bow and arrow. Maybe there should be only longbow wood events and recurve carbon events, limiting the equipment so everyone shoots the same way. (Texas State Longbow Championship is like this to some degree, although they have added a division to acommidate the laminated all wood guys) Shoot what you enjoy, work to excell with that type of bow, and have fun with traditional archery.
With some of the newer LB designs i.e., centershot the gap between recurve and LB is disappearing. The only recurve guys I can't catch are the carbon arrow dudes. My hunting weight woodies can get close, but it is real tough to compete against the skinny sticks. There usually are only about 2-6 LB and 1-2 recurve shooters total at our local shoot. When I travel to the bigger shoots aluminum and carbon are in their own class.
dang , cast the bait and not one nibble :0)
To answer the question in as simple a manner as possible.
Longbows,no matter what arrow their shooting,can't match recurves.
Now to expand on that a little.
I've shot both longbow and recurve in three different types of competition over the last three years,two of which let you shoot whatever arrow you want.
The better longbow shooters usualy get into the lower recurve scores,but no further than that.
The comp's that demand a wood arrow for longbows are trying to preserve the Traditions of the longbow,which is a total joke anyway.seeing as how they allow R/D flatbows to be shot in the longbow class.
The club I belong to has five different classes for its traditional shoots. Trad longbow, trad recurve, modern longbow, modern recurve, and recurve unlimited (I think). The trad classes are for recurve and longbow shot off the shelf w/ wood arrows only. Modern allows for an non adustable arrow rest and any arrow material. Unlimited is for any arrow rest, stab, slings, clickers, etc but no sight.
Most of the time the best shot is going to win or place well no matter the weapon or class. Good shootin' is good shootin'.
Chris
I'll bite Drewsbow - ARE NOT !
See what I said earlier about focusing on a bows perceived or actual advantage instead of cultural and historic value when making Traditional bow divisions - complicates things real quick .
I shoot mostly Selfbow and on a good day am capable of matching the top shots with recurve or Longbow in my neck of the woods - but I gotta practice daily and shoot regular comps to do it . Because of the time I must devote to my young family I recently bought myself a Rivers Edge Arroyo and if I only shoot once a week can shoot as well as if I had been training daily for a month with the selfbow
Human nature wont change but what is actually traditional equipment and peoples idea's on exactly what is traditional is changing real fast . Imagine the same discussion with the introduction of fibreglass and mass produced alluminium shafts in the 50's then take it back 50 years further and imagine how the d section bow was superior and no one wanted to know about native american flatbows
Only half tongue in cheek perhaps the definitions need to be pre industrial age , post industrial age and space age .
As far as the newer designs go - think back to the Egyptian composite bow of 3500 years ago - looks a lot like many of the deflex reflex bows of today . I repeat - Cultural and Historic Value in focus when talking Traditional Archery
Most of the shoots I've been to have 3 traditional categories,recurve,longbow,and primative.
The best reason I can give is a recurve bow can have an arrow rest and/or plunger but no stab or sight. A longbow must be shot off of the shelf. Primitive must use wood arrows and have no fglass/carbon in the bow. The top shooters in this area shoot pretty close between LB and Recurve. But as more shoot DAS. Titans, or modern trad, "FITA without weight, stabs, or sights. this may change.
Drewsbow--I caught that comment-just waiting for the bomb to go off.lol--BTW I shoot a longbow.---------------------Bone-
Here is another angle about classes at shoots. Why do we have a senior division for people over 50 yrs of age? I know many older shooter that can shoot arrows thru rings with either a long bow or recurve. I'm over fifty.
Well folks, I guess I got my answer.....
There really is no "true" solution! No real reason to seperate classes, just an arbitrary decision by those who set up shoots?
It appears as if it all comes back to the age old question; What does each person consider traditional?
-Charlie
Recurves shoot ON AVERAGE a slightly higher score because a recurve tends to have more center mass and be forgiving of small mistakes.
A good longbow shooter can erase that difference.
For years we didn't seperate anything because of equipment. We all shot from the same stakes and the only division was between sights/no-sights. There were as many shoots won with recurves and longbows as with compounds in the no sight division. There were several shoots where a recurve shooter blew everybody away in the sight division too. I guess this "traditional" division and "traditional stakes" sorta bugs me because we all shoot at the same deer when hunting. Just my 2 cents!
You may disagree that recurve shooters score higher against their longbow competition, but I am speaking of competitions I have attended here in the Pacific Northwest. It is rare indeed when a longbow shooter scores higher than the top recurve shooter.
It seems most of the events are "fun shoots" with little, if any, rivalry among participants. Granted, many shooters even refrain from turning in a score card. There is no prize money and just so many places you can put a trophy in the den.
In addition, events out West tend to have targets situated at distances in excess of those in the East. Shots of 25-30 yards are common, and targets set at 40 and 50 yards are not rare.
My friends and I both shoot recurve AND longbow, but each of us score higher with the recurve.
These are just my observations and experiences and is no way proving scientifically that one bow is superior to another. Shoot what you like and have fun, right?
Shoot the long bow and wood arrows and be proud of the scores you shoot. Remember why the compound was invented? So you didn't need to be as skilled an archer to shoot well. Same thing with cabon and metal arrows. They make you better, not more skilled. An easy way out.
My take on it. When I first started shooting 3D Tourney's, there was one class for traditional. Then then the guys shooting self bows started crying about it being unfair, then the longbows guys, then the guys shooting woods, and so on. I blame US.... The wheel classes didn't complain about it. It was US.. With the "He shoots this" and "He shoots that". I remember back when it was just the "Traditional" class. The Best shooters won and no one complained.... Awhile back here in So. California, a Doctor set up a Traditional Invatational Shoot. He invited Clubs to make up teams. We hade about 100 shooters for this 2 day event. After the team events he had a "Last Man Standing" with all 100 shooters. Selfbow, longbow, hybreed, recurve, and traget recurve guys and gals all shot aganist each other.
Well it came down to the 2 Best shooters in the area, one with a metal riser Hoyt and a guy with a D shape longbow....... Recuve guy shot a 10, and the longbow shot a .............12......The Best shooter won...not the style of bow.... Let's just shoot some arrows and have some fun. We can control the classes at our own Clubs. As for the NFAA and IBO that's a different story.....Happy Holiday's........Mark
Again, please excuse my ignorance.
In all the pictures I've seen of olympic shooting, the archers are using recurves. Anyone know why that is or would they allow longbows too?
-Charlie
QuoteSo you didn't need to be as skilled an archer to shoot well. Same thing with cabon and metal arrows. They make you better, not more skilled. An easy way out.
:rolleyes:
With all due respect - horse hockey.
I believe recurves are at the Olympics because "that's the rules".
More practical, however, is the fact that there is currently no longbow capable of beating those olympic recurves. As soon as one is developed that can beat a recurve, you will probably see a rule change to allow it. I have heard that O.L. Adcock is close.
The Reason for the different classes is "BEACUSE THEY CAN" I'm sure no one really knows the pin point reason. I think that if you question it yourself if it is Traditional, than it might not be. But if you are fine with it. Then let it be. Bow -arrow material etc -what have you. you still need to make the shot!!!If one was so much better than the other, they would only make the one kind!!
I believe it is because they can. By that I mean, that the more classes, recurve, longbow, selfbow, women's, youth, and cub--the more people get to win something, and the more interested they are in coming back.
Longbowman,,,I remember those days very well. Around here you shot "sights" or "barebow" division. Didn't matter what type of bow it was. But before that division came,,,we just had FUN!!
:thumbsup:
Buckeye Hunter I'm an old FITA shooter and before I woke up this was the story .
String tension means performance , recurves generally have more string tension . A recurve distributes the energy more efficiently into an arrow due to a more vertical limb action snapping the string vertically which equals less handshock . This technology has been high jacked by our compound brothers .
Because recurves have differant string angles than straight limb bows they can be shorter and lighter and shoot light arrows faster .
The price for this is a less stable bow that can punish form errors . Olympic style bows counter with extra length . Stabilisers , V bars , adjustable tiller , adjustable grips , vibration dampened limb pockets and enginered risers etc add an extra degree to stability .
Then they pinch a bit of ancient knowledge and use high FOC arrows for long range accuracy and small diameter arrows for wind bucking
I dont know if FITA allows straight limbed bows into this class but I am sure if a manufacturer put this much technology and enginering into a straight limbed bow it may prove to be more forgiving of form errors and more accurate . With sights and fixed distances a few fps means nothing . regards Jacko
buckeye_hunter,
The olympic shooters shoot recurves cause they are the best shooting bow by far.... You can take the top Longbow, and Recurve shooters in the world, and the Recurve shooters will come out on top every time.
Recuvres are cut to center or past, and have cushin plungers, stabilizers, and arrow rests. This makes the bow much easier to tune, and get perfect arrow flight. Recurves are smoother due to thier limb design. I love Longbows, and own and shoot several, but a Longbow will never compete with a Recurve.
So couldn't we all shoot longbows with recurve style risers and get the best of both worlds....so to speak?
Again, please don't shoot me, I don't think I've committed heresy to this point.
-Charlie
From an accuracy perspective, recurves have several advantages. For a given weight, they are usually a little more efficient, ie., they will shoot a little flatter, faster. Their draw is generally a little smoother, which over a lot of arrows in tournament shooting may be a factor. Their risers are generally larger/heavier, making them more stable. Generally, their sight windows are cut to or past center, making tuning easier and enabling them to accept a wide range of arrows, for example, physically light but high spined arrows. All of these are advantages over "traditional" longbows. Three-piece takedown longbows and other hybrids are clouding those differences. There are also some inherent advantages of carbon and aluminum shafting over wood. Carbon and aluminum are generally straighter and lighter, which makes for more accuracy in target archery. When you take an average cross section of shooters, they will generally shoot a little higher scores with recurves than with longbows, though on any given day, the top longbow shooter may beat the top recurve shooter. Likewise, those shooting carbons are generally going to shoot higher scores than those shooting woodies. What's is happening and has happened in traditional 3-D tournaments is that they've just become more competitive, and the myriad categories springing up is a partial reflection of the differences between the equipment. I like the way they do it at Comptons. Shoot what you want. Nobody keeps score.
It's not just the riser, it's also the limbs. The recurve limbs are faster, and smoother than a longbow, and I am talking about a true longbow not a R/D longbow cause some of those are as fast as some recurves. So, when, I say longbow, I am refering to a Hill style bow..... I do not consider the new R/D to be true longbows.
One thing to remember with the Olympic shooter is they are not shooting hunting weight bows or arrows. And the set ups they use are as technically advanced as any compound. As far as my quote on non-wood arrows making you better not more skilled it's true. It's easier to get a matched set of non-wood arrows to fly all the same way. With wood arrows you deal with the little things from the nock and point tapers, to the arrow just being straight effecting your grouping.
QuoteWhy recurve and longbow classes at trad shoots???
Because as some point in time, enough individuals complained and whined about so in so having an unfair advantage because of the equipment he/she was shooting. It's always the equipment, you know. God forbid the individual behind the bow actually be a good shot.
QuoteIn all the pictures I've seen of olympic shooting, the archers are using recurves. Anyone know why that is or would they allow longbows too?
High level olympic shooters are in an extremely competetive class and want to shoot the best equipment available to them. The fact that the vast, vast majority shoot recurves shuold tell you something. As far as I'm aware of, there are no rules excluding the use of longbow limb geometry on an olympic target rig. If someone feels they can make the team shooting a longbow, then they need to shoot the qualifiers and earn their place on the next olympic team.
QuoteOne thing to remember with the Olympic shooter is they are not shooting hunting weight bows or arrows.
Though their arrow weights may not me what most would consider hunting weight arrows, the draw weights are similar to what many trad hunters use. Many of the top female olympic shooters shoot poundages in the low to mid 40's range. Many of the top male competitors shoot poundages in the mid to high 40's with some shooting around the 50# mark. I believe John Magera (LimbWalker) was shooting right at 50# in the '04 olympics. I also recall at some point he mentioned his competition arrow weight is a touch over 8 gr/#.
For practical reasons we only need 2 classes.
Primitive, for selfbows and wood shafts, and modern for all other Recurves/Longbows, any arow type,no sights , shot off the shelf.
Todays longbows and recurves are so close in performance that the advantages of one type over the other is just not there any more.
Currently here we see RU class with as many longbows shooting it as recurves, and the longbow class that only allows wood arrows, recurves are not permitted.
We would be better served with having a Traditional class, selfbow/wood arrow and a modern class, that has all laminated longbows and recurves shooting wood or any other arrow type. Shoot what you like, just have fun .
I believe that John Nail hit on what I also think, but it's still the shooter behind the bow. I shoot a selfbow best. My2Cents
If you take handle mass into account, some three piece longbows don't give anything back to a recurve...but they really aren't longbows in the strictest sense. However, if you don't think you can be more accurate with a recurve bow, then you haven't shot both very much. As for rules, they have to be there to curb cheating and running up scores against those not having the same ability. Cheats are abundant in all sports, and particular archery. I've seen what people will do just to win a trophy.
Archery as a competitive sport, would not last very long if there was no way for the novice or intermediate archer to compete. The NFAA figured that out over 60 years ago. You certainly wouldn't want your high school playing Ohio State every year. One needs a chance to learn to shoot well while still having a chance to earn recognition.
Given the same skill, the guy with a recurve will almost always beat the guy with a longbow.
And to the guy who said those who shoot aspirins always have longbows.....aparently you never saw Stacy Groscup...probably the most prolific aerial shooter ever....long before Byron Ferguson. Stacy shot a Zipper recurve bow.
some of the shoots that I have been to,some of the longbow guys(and gals)felt at a dissadvantage because they shot wood arrows in the same class as the recurve/longbow shooters with carbons. So became the two different classes. If there was a longbow shooter with carbons they had to shoot in the recurve class.And many times they placed higher. It's all about the shooter.
How does that Saying Go, "It Is The Indian, Not The Arrow". :thumbsup: As Long as Everyone Has A Good Time, "The Fun" doesnt Wear Off! :archer: Just My 2 Cents. :goldtooth: