Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Liquid Amber on February 22, 2012, 08:33:00 AM
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Hill made bamboo a household name when it came to bows during his career in archery. That's well known. What's not well known is how he came to use bamboo.
I'm a cause and effect guy. If Hill showed up at my house and we had a round at the butts and he didn't fare well, and I was using bamboo bows, and the next month he pays another visit and is sporting a new laminated bamboo of his manufacture, might be I was unknowingly responsible for introducing him to this material. :)
Laminated bamboo bows have been around in America since the early 1880s and well documented by Will H. Thompson in a handful of articles he produced while "Archery Editor" of "Forest and Stream" from 1879-1881.
Howard Hill traveled to Chicago and attended the NAA Nationals in 1930. He placed in the middle of the pack in 30th place. Contrary to commonly held views, Howard Hill was only an average archer shooting the standard target rounds of the NAA, the Double York and Double American.
But, that wasn't his gig and had he changed his shooting style to point of aim or sights, he "likely" would have been competitive, but he choose to shoot his regular style. Tt was noted by those who observed Hill on several occasions that Hill's scores were pretty amazing using his style.
Back to bamboo. Hoogerhyde won the 1930 NAA National using three different bows of bamboo. Howard Hill stated he made his first bow of bamboo in 1931 and killed a deer in Maine that year with it. There is a reasonable chance that the 1930 NAA National was Hill's first exposure to the material that would become synonymous with Hill's bows.
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Hoogerhyde's bows were made by Duff, bowyer to the Queen before he moved to the US. The bamboo was in vertical lams rather than horizontal, viewed with the bow belly up or down. A fellow had one at the Howard Hill World Championship in Wilsonville, AL one year in the mid-90's. He was shooting the bow, and let me and a couple of other folks shoot a few arrows through it. It should have been in a museum.
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I checked "Archery Aims" [1933] by Hoogerhyde & Thompson and Duff's "Bows & Arrows", 1st ed., but neither of them [unless I missed it] refers to bamboo as a bow wood.
So I next checked Elmer's "Archery", 1946. On pages 159 to 161, he discusses 'bamboo'. He mentioned the early patent given to Frederick Malleson of Conroy, Bissett & Malleson of NYC for bamboo bows. In a testimonial, Will Thompson described his split bamboo bow as very elastic and stated that it was "absolutely unbreakable".
Elmer noted that 'in spite of the undoubted merit of the split bamboo bow, it had a rather limited vogue and ceased to be produced'.
Elmer then said "However, in 1928 the South Bend Bait Company of South Bend, Indiana, makers of fishing tackle, hit upon the same idea quite independently." In October of 1928, they sent Dr. Elmer three bows made from their [bamboo] staves - two bows that they had made and one that had been made by Jim Duff.
Apparently "The principle of constructing the stave was radically different from that of Malleson in that it was an inch and a quarter square - not pentagonal - and was formed of three equal layers, each of which was composed of about ten splints averaging an eighth of an inch in thickness. A cross-section of the stave would therefore expose the ends of about thirty splints. In the finished bow the three layers lay parallel to the flat back, so that the long axes of the little splints would point from back to belly and not from side to side, thus fiving much greater strength. The company said that only the finest selected Tonkin bull cane was used and that to lay the pieces correctly required an experience of years. The price was forty-five dollars."
Elmer ranked the bamboo bows among the best he had ever shot. Duff said "I honestly believe you have a bow tha beats anything that has come along in the way of new inventions for archery."
Elmer went on to note that Russ Hoogerhyde used three in the NAA tournament of 1930. However, the company ceased the manufacture of these bows a few years later.
Cliff, as you point out, Howard Hill would likely have been exposed to Russ Hoogerhyde using these bamboo bows and may have heard Jimmy Duff's thoughts on bamboo as well.
It's an interesting conjecture on your part.
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I'm not sure "conjecture" is the appropriate phrase as my conclusion is based upon "accurate" information, I just can't tie it all together in a neat package. :) I didn't have much more than this when I began running down "Florida snakewood."
Forest and Stream - December 5, 1878 - pg 370
Split Bamboo Archery Bows.--the employment of split bamboo in the construction of fishing rods has very fully demonstrated its superiority over every other material where lightness, elasticity and strength are the requisites. The use of bamboo in the manufacture of archery bows promises to thoroughly revolutionize the business. We have carefully examined a bow of bamboo and lancewood made by Conroy, Bissett & Malleson, the well known makers of fishing rods, and it is a marvel of neatness and strength. These bows are from 5ft. To 6ft. In length, and have a pull of from 50 lbs. to 70 lbs. They are far better than the best wooden bows, and can be made fifty per cent. cheaper, the 5 ft. Bows costing $15. Several experienced archers have already given their most full approval of this new invention in archery good, and we have every reason to believe that our readers will in the split bamboo the bow they are looking for. One good bow, like one good fishing rod, is worth a dozen poor ones.
Forest and Stream - December 11, 1979 - page 896
The Split Bamboo Bow.--New York, Nov. 28th.--Editor Forest and Stream:--In answer to Mr. Will Thompson’s very interesting article on bows, we wish particularly to explain somewhat the action of his split bamboo. The one Mr. Thompson mentions was one of the very first we made; we found the great difficulty was in getting them to bend evenly, for the split bamboo differs from the wooden bow insomuch it can not be altered after it has been once put together. Now, we have no trouble in this respect, as experience has taught us to gauge them perfectly. Mr. Thompson’s bow was faulty from this defect, and not from the giving out of the glue as he supposes; for the cement used in construction is the same as in the split bamboo rods, which can be used day after day in the rain without injury, and soaking in water will not affect them, much less standing against a damp wall. In regard to the bow mentioned by the gentleman in Marietta, we would like to state that he ordered it backed with snakewood, a material we do not approve of, and however disastrous it may have been to the bow, it certainly was not to him, as we have never been paid for it.
Conroy, Bissett & Malleson.
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American Vs. English Bows.
Forest and Stream - November 20, 1879 (page 837)
Editor Forest and Stream:--
I confess to a large share of confidence in Yankee ingenuity and skill in mechanical construction, and could not and can not accept the opinion so often and so confidently expressed by agents of English manufacturers that our people could not possibly compete with the English in the manufacture of fine bows and arrows.
There is not more practical difficulty in the construction of a good bow than in the making of a good rod, and I think that your readers will readily concede that our rod makers, to say the least, hold their own against our British cousins. There is no such subtle nicety in the lines of a bow as to require many years of practical experience in order to make a good one. If it were so, modern bow-makers ought to have greatly improved over their ancestors; yet, as a matter of fact, if history is to be believed, the modern bow is neither as enduring or powerful as those of olden times. The difference lies, I take it, not so much in the make as in the material. In ancient times, owing to the constant demand for bows for war and the chase, bow material was carefully cultivated and preserved. Since the bow gave way to gunpowder, comparatively little effort has been made to get or preserve the best material.
When the present interest in archery first began to manifest itself in this country (may it never grow less!) The best bow materials were but little known here, and less used. The lover of the bow was forced to look to England for his supplies. But the prevalent and increasing interest now felt in this most delightful of recreations has set our Yankee manufacturers to work with their characteristic energy and enterprise, and to-day it may be safely said, that, taking the same materials, they make as good bows as are made in “merry old England.” No better chance can be found for comparing different makers than is offered at the meetings of the large archery associations. The tournament of the Eastern Archery Association just held in Boston, where upwards of seventy-five archers, ladies and gentlemen, entered into friendly competition, afforded just such an opportunity. Nearly every kind of bow, and from about every known maker, was to be seen on the field, of weight ranging from twenty-four to sixty pounds. From our English friends, Aldred’s, Highfield’s and Feltham’s makes were their yew, snake and lancewood; while the American makers were principally represented by the split bamboo, snake and lancewood.
In this competition the American bows not only held their own, but noticeably surpassed their rivals in many important respects.
Conspicuous for its smooth action and tremendous driving power was the split-bamboo-50-lb.-bow shot by Mr. R. Lawrence, of Flushing, L. I. Although there were several bows of greater weight in the field (among others a Highfield 60-lb. snake), yet no bow there sent its arrows so swiftly and with so flat a trajectory. Its superiority in these respects was very marked at sixty and still more noticeable at eighty yards, when in spite of a very trying cross wind it sent its arrow far below the line of flight of its competitors, and yet at times overshot the target. Mr. Lawrence won the first prize at eighty yards against all comers.
Two other bamboo bows were used at this tournament--a 42 lb., shot by Mr. W. Holberton, of New York, and a 55 lb., shot by Mr. W. Beecher, of Brooklyn. This latter bow has the reputation of having shot nearly 8,000 30-inch arrows during the past summer, and is, in spite of so much hard work, still a very hard-hitting bow, having the smooth pull and great driving power which characterizes these bows, in common with the Spanish yew.
The snake and lancewood bows manufactured by Mr. Horseman, of New York, shot fully as well in every respect as the same woods of English make, and rendered a good account of themselves in prizes taken.
The tournament lasted two days, at all distances from thirty to eighty yards, in addition to part of another day devoted to independent sweepstakes shooting at an outside range. Yet so far as I could learn not a bow was broken.
At the national tournament held last August in Chicago quite a number of fine English-made yew bows, which are imported to this country, range in price from $25 to $150, and yet not infrequently break in a few weeks’ shooting, it is difficult to see of what the English superiority consists--unless it be the price. The unconvinced advocate of English superiority is respectfully recommended to inquire of Messrs. Will and Maurice Thompson as to how many English-made bows they have broken during the last two season. Judging from the unqualified recommendation given by the Thompsons and other expert archers respecting the arrows made by Conroy or by Horsman, our manufacturers are competing with the English as successfully in the making of fine arrows as in fine bows. The smooth and even flight of those makers’ arrows used in Boston fully warrants the recommendations they have received.
Facts are more convincing than arguments, and after the fine performance of the American bows and arrows which I have witnessed during the past summer, when in competition with those of foreign make, it will take something stronger than argument to shake my confidence in our makers.
America
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Split Bamboo Bows are Patented
Forest and Stream - June 19, 1879 - pg 396
Split Bamboo Bows are Patented—Editor Forest and Stream: Will you kindly notify dealers in archery, through your valuable paper, that our Split Bamboo Bow is patented, and that all infringements will be prosecuted and our patent protected to the full extent of the law. We have always advertised this bow as being patented, but notwithstanding, we hear from all directions that cheap imitations and infringements on our patent are being made and sold.
Yours respectfully,
Conroy, Bissett & Malleson.
New York, June 16, 1879
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American Bows
Forest and Stream - April 10, 1879 (pg 196)
Because of great cost of the imported bows, and difficulty in obtaining a supply from England last season, many archers were necessarily compelled to use bows of American manufacture, and these were generally of very rude and inelegant form, and made of poorly seasoned and unfit wood. But with commendable zeal several American manufactures have this year begun the task of supplying the American market with a better grade of bows and arrow, and with most gratifying results. In many of the cities and villages throughout the United States there are local mechanics who are turning out bows on special order only, but I only propose in this paper to examine a few bows from some of the larger manufactories from which many of our fine bows will be drawn during the coming season:
The first to which I shall refer is the split bamboo bow of Conroy, Bissett & Malleson’s manufacture. In the early part of the month of February last, I procured one of their $20 grade, 6 ft. Long, 57 pounds weight, having nickel-plated tips, and silk wound at intervals of every two inches from tip to tip. This bow is made of three strips of split bamboo forming the belly, the hollow being filled with a core of snakewood, and the whole backed with a thin band of white second growth hickory. These are put together with boiling glue, and then wound with the green silk bands. These bindings of silk were adapted by the manufacturers at my suggestion, and although they claim that the glue used is so strong that the winding of silk is unnecessary, yet I am fully persuaded that no glue will stand in a 60 pound bow through a season’s shooting, unless the bow is so wound, the powerful recoil, equal to twelve hundred pounds, disintegrating the glue. No archer complained last season that the foreign bows did not shoot well, but we all complained bitterly at their extreme tenderness. Not one archer in ten was able to procure one which would last three months. This was due to three reasons: first, the great demand for archery in this country could not be supplied by the English makers, and American dealers ransacked every auction room and warehouse in England for old and rejected goods, and brought them to this market; second, the backed bows were all injured by the ocean voyage; and lastly, the manufacturers finding themselves overwhelmed with orders, hastily worked up half-seasoned and worthless timber and sent out large quantities of very inferior bows. To insure a supply of good bows this season, will require several large manufactories, and much seasoned timber. This latter I understand the Messrs. Conroy, Bissett & Malleson to possess, not only in the way of split bamboo, but snakewood, and lancewood in abundance. The split bamboo bow which I possess is not perfect, but it is a very high grade bow. It is very quick in its action, has a soft and delightful pull, and sends an arrow with enormous force, as low a flight as any bow I have ever used of its weight, with the one exception of a 56 pound Spanish yew, the property of Mr. Henry C. Carver of Chicago.
The bamboo bow is not heavy in the hand, and is in appearance very showy and elegant. But its chief excellence is its durability. No archer need fear break one of these bows. I have drawn a 37 inch arrow to the head repeatedly on mine; have broken several strings and thoroughly tested its endurance, and am satisfied that with half decent usage it will last for many years. This quality of withstanding rough usage is one of the first requisites of a bow, for what archer care to invest from $10 to $75 in a bow and break it within a week? Not only is the expense an unpleasant feature, but the impossibility of shooting well with a bow until one becomes used to its action renders it very exasperating to the archer to have his bow break just when he is acquiring control of it. I have doubtless broken more bows than any archer in America last season, and besides the expense in money. I may say that the monotonous snapping of all my fine bows did not cause me to “grow in grace.” My shooting is very severe upon a bow, from the fact that I always pull loose on the draw. I have not known of any other archer whose experience has been so disastrous as mine. So when I find that I cannot break the split bamboo bow, I feel confident that no other archer will. The metal tips on these bows are an improvement in two respects; they never split or break as horn do and thereby break the bow, and they are very handsome. Their only defect is their greater weight, acting as a loaded end to the bow causes the breaking of strings. However, strings are cheaper than bows, and one had better break many strings than lose one bow. Summing up the qualities of the split bamboo bow, I conclude that it is very enduring, handsome, quick in action, very hard shooting,--having a soft sweet pull, and likely to be very popular with archers who are willing to pay a good price for a fine bow. The Messrs. Conroy, Bisset & Malleson have done a good work and no doubt will reap a fine profit during the coming season. I have found by experimenting that my bow at least, and I think other bows of bamboo, will do best with heavy arrows, not less than five shillings weight, 5. 3. being preferable, the peculiar springy leap of the bow when the string is loosed being suited to a strong, rigid arrow. When a light, weak arrow is used the powerful and sudden blow of the string springs the arrow, either breaking it or injuring its flight. Given a strong string, a rigid arrow and a steady pull, and the split bamboo will drive the arrow with beautiful steadiness, and great force.
E. I. Horseman of 80 & 82 William street, N. Y., has begun the manufacturing of fine archery goods at his factory at Little Falls, Rhode Island. I have two snakewood-backed with lance, one amaranth-backed with lance, two lance-backed with hickory, and one self lance, of his make, and I not only give it as my own opinion, but as the opinion of every member of the Wabash Merry Bowmen who has seen them, that they are the finest lot of bows, of those woods, ever seen together. The workmanship is perfect, the joining of the two pieces being a triumph of skill. The handle of plush, the horns, the polish, and every item of finish could not be improved. The two snakewood bows are of 48 and 58 pounds weight, and the pull of each is so sharp and true, that an arrow is carried with a most beautiful flight. Having seen so many futile attempts of our American bowyers to get up a good wood bow last year, I had about reached the conclusion that it could not be done, but I am satisfied that ere the summer is over we will be buying most of our cheaper bows from American makers. Of course when a gentleman desires a fine Spanish or Italian yew bow of a price from $55 to $250, he will send to Europe for it, as several of our archers have done this spring, but for lance, snake, amaranth, bamboo and other bows costing from $5 to $20 each, we will rely upon home makers. I happen to know that Mr. Horsman has prepared a magnificent silver mounted, velvet lined, mahogany case, containing six fine bows, each one a marvel of beauty, and two dozen finest arrows, which he offers as a prize at the Chicago Tournament, to take place in August, 1879, under the auspices of the National Archery Association. This elegant case will not be of less that $125 in value, and will be keenly fought for on the target field. No archer seeing these bows, can doubt their excellence. Their symmetry, the perfect curvature of each limb, the sweetness of their pull, and the quickness of their action proclaim them the perfection of hardwood bows. Of course no hardwood bow, however perfect, can compare with a finest Spanish or Italian self yew, but the majority of American archers will not care to invest $50 to $ 75 in one bow, and I would not advise the purchase of a yew bow at a less price. Mr. Henry C. Carver of Chicago, Ill. has one of 56 pounds weight, which cost, delivered at Chicago, $77, and one which cost $135. The last is the perfection of the bowyers art. Such bows as these are an endless delight to the owner, but few will be willing to bear such expense. I have two of Aldred’s make, one of which cost $49, and the other $77 delivered at Crawfordsville.
The cheaper bow shoots as well as the costlier one, but I think it will not endure so well. Two very fine Spanish yew bows, are among the prizes offered by Mr. Aldred at the Chicago Meeting. Messrs. W. A. Russell, and Charles A. Jay of the Kokomo Archers have each two fine yews of Aldred’s make costing about $75 each, delivered. Outside of these I know of no yew bows of more than $30 valuation in America. So long as our archers are using bows of lancewood, rosewood, or snakewood, I would not advise them to import them, for the wood bows of Mr. Horsman, the split bamboo of Conroy, Bissett & Malleson, and the three piece bows of Messrs. A. G. Spalding & Bro., of l18 Randolph street, Chicago, will give greater satisfaction. These latter bows are made upon special orders only, and are so constructed that it appears almost impossible for them to break. Two thin bands of split bamboo are used to form the belly and back of the bow, the center piece being of the finest heart snakewood. These three pieces are first put together with glue, great care being taken not to race the fine natural enamel upon the bamboo. Then the bow is strongly wrapped from tip to tip with heavy silk, in bands an inch wide and placed about an inch apart. Some of the bows in the hands of members of the Chicago Archery Association have been used constantly all winter, and are now as straight and perfect as the day they were made. Of some forty or more now in use, not one has ever shown an evidence of yielding. As the bamboo on the belly is so hard that it cannot pinch, and the bow is so strongly wrapped that it cannot yield in the glue joints or splinter up on the back, it is difficult to see how one can break. Their shooting qualities are most excellent, they being very quick, smooth in the pull, and causing no jar in the hand at the recoil of the bow. I do not know the cost of them, as the one I have ordered built for me has not reached me yet. I think about $18 is the retail price. Messrs. Spalding will offer some of their finest make as prizes at the Chicago meeting. I do not advocate the sacrifice of buying poor bows from American makers, simply to encourage home manufacture, but when such work as the bows above described are turned out at home, I feel sure that our archers can rely upon getting good gear at less price at home than they can by going abroad. I intend soon to give the result of my examination and testing of American strings and arrows, some handsome specimens of which I have been using for the past three months.
Will H. Thompson
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Knowing how Hill was introduced to bamboo isn't particularly important, but an interesting piece of trivia. Knowing when is useful as it helps determine time line in the evolution of his bows.
I'd comfortable in saying Hill's first bamboo bows appeared about 1931 as he states. After spending the best part of the past year or so researching Hill's early years in Florida [1925-1932], I found that Hill's writings on whole are pretty accurate and published accounts by others of Hill's early years in Florida lacking, with the exception of Don Carson's "Early Adventures With Howard Hill" published by Raptor Archery.
Between the abundance of newspaper material on Hill from this period, Carson's book and what Hill noted in his books about this period, one can put together a pretty accurate accounting of his time and activities
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The Forest and Stream articles are most interesting. By 'conjecture', I was referring how Hill was introduced to bamboo bows. I don't doubt but what you are correct.
I wonder if South Bend Bait Company was the only firm making bamboo bows at that time? I also wonder if any of the English bowyers used bamboo either in the late 1800's or early 1900's?
More importantly, I wonder how Hill learned to work with bamboo and did he replicate the approach that South Bend used to make their bows, which was apparently different from that of Conroy, Bissett and Malleson? I think that this information would be interesting to know.
By the way, the American Museum of Fly Fishing located in Manchester, VT has several of Conroy, Bissett and Malleson's bamboo fly fishing rods [knowing that you are a fly fisherman -- I thought you would be interested in knowing]. They are beautiful fishing rods.
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I really like the read, my only book on the bow is Dr. Elmer's
Here is some pictures of my bow. :cool: Hink
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1800-2.jpg)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1805.jpg)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1801-2.jpg)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1802-1.jpg) (http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1803-1.jpg)
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1809-1.jpg)
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I'm in Baton Rouge and headed to New Orleans tomorrow so don't have access to all my stuff, but think there were others.
I do know Jim Deeds messed with bamboo beginning about 1933.
March 1946 - "Archery"
“Bamboo for Bow Backing”
Fully matured and properly seasoned Giant Timber Bamboo makes a better backing for bows than most any other material, according to Jim Deeds, 100 Echo Avenue, Oakland 11, California. He passes along his experience to either the amateur bow maker, or the bowman who wants to know more about his bow than he could learn from a shop-purchased weapon. Deeds has been making bows since 1933, and insists that you can “make a bow a better bow with bamboo.”
Deeds says bamboo is no more difficult to work than yew or osage, and requires few tools. He admits he cannot guarantee every man’s individual skill, but says if archers follow instructions, most of them will achieve good results. [pg. 11]
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Our posts crossed. Nice bow. Can you describe the orientation of the laminations, etc. ?
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Originally posted by Liquid Amber:
Our posts crossed. Nice bow. Can you describe the orientation of the laminations, etc. ?
Not sure but they look like they lay flat with the back of the bow, Does that fit what was detailed in the writing? thought it was souding like it ran with the sides of the bow :confused: Hink
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This is a very interesting thread here! Thanks for your efforts...........Much appreciated!
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Hink, That is one neat bow. I'll bet that there aren't many of these around.
Cliff, Forgot albout Jim Deeds -- thanks for reminding me. Somewhere, I have a copy of his catalog.
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Cliff, I would like to see some of your material if you wouldn't mind sharing where I might read about some of the info you posted above. You can send me a PM if needed. Thanks Flint
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Hink, Elmer's "Target Archery" is my "go to" book on a lot of archery history questions!
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A few other good books from Elmer is Archery copyright 1926 and American Archery, I think 1933. I know from an earlier post that Liquid Amber has a very extensive Archery Library. This is great stuff here.
Ooop's, Missed the earlier post!!!!
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David, That is a great source of info on
Bow-Woods and on p.136-137 is on Bamboo. after reading it they had wondered why it fell out of use in bow-woods was feared "that out of so many constituent parts some might weaken and give way" And this may have been true for this bow has a couple of limb wraps for repair on it. This bow is the only one I've seen and was a great find for me. I'd have to go back through my pictures to see if the Pope & Young Club has one, I would think they would with all the great bows they have on hand in there collections....alot to learn...Thanks..Hink
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In the early days celebrities such as Maurice Thompson, Will Thompson, Howard Hill and others had their movements/activities tracked by newspapers.
If old Howard took a trip to Maine for the summer consulting on the construction of archery golf courses, it was recorded in the newspaper. If old Maurice traveled back to Calhoun, Ga for a visit, it was recorded in a newspaper. If Will H. Thompson was handling the defense of his youngest son's murder case, it was recorded in the newspapers.
Many of these newspapers have their achieves downloaded on the internet. In the case of the above mentioned trio, there is a huge amount of material available.
Information on Hill's early years [1925-1932] in Florida and lots of early California material can be accessed through "Goggle News Archive Search." Be innovative and search with a variety of phases and add his friends' names to hill's as well. Much of the material cannot be printed directly off the screen but the innovative can simply take a digital photo of the screen, scan and print a hard copy and file.
You can get a copy of "Early Adventures with Howard Hill" by Don Carson from Raptor Archery, which is the "only" published account of Hill's early years in Florida by one who experienced it with him, the only published first hand account. What I have been able to cross-check with Hill and newspaper accounts I have found to be accurate.
"Hunting the Hard Way" and "Wild Adventure" has much information on his early years for those who "actually" read the material. I have found Hill's accounts in these two books to be pretty accurate.
Rhode, Robert - History of the National Archery Association
1st 1978, Vol 1, 1879-1945 (1000 copies) You will find information on Hill and the NAA from these years.
That's where the story is for those willing to search it out and put it together.
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Thanks for the info. I will do some searching.
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Cliff..... :cool: I do have a set of Rhode's Books and use them alot along with bound sets and looking for other Bound sets I don't have.
Have List:
The Archer's Register 1886,1901-1910
The Archery Review Vol.1-4
Ye Sylvan Archer Vol.1-6 ,Loose 1939,1941
Archery 1944-1973
The Archers Maganzine 1952-1963
Bowhunter 1971-1983
National Field Archer 1962
The Feathered Shaft 1947-1950
Tam and The National Bowhunter 1963-1964
Tam and The Archery World 1964-1966
The Eastern Bowhunter 1956-1959
Bow & Arrow 1963-1984
Archery World 1966-1984
Thanks for the info :cool: Hink
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The earliest published material credited to Howard Hill I've located and collected is the Miami News article from Jan 1931.
Maybe this list will provide some help in finding Hill material. I always identify if I have an original, copy, or printed text of the piece in my records.
HOWARD HILL BIBLIOGRAPHY
Books
orig. Hunting The Hard Way - 1953
orig. Wild Adventure - 1954 [Inscribed and signed by Howard and Elizabeth Hill to Don Carson; Don Carson’s personal copy]
orig. Wild Adventure - 1955 British Edition, DJ
orig. Hunting The Hard Way - 1956 British Edition, DJ
Books About Hill
orig. Howard Hill, The man and the Legend – 1982- Ekin, Craig
orig. Early Adventures with Howard Hill – 2004 - Carson, Don [published by Ted Fry]
Magazine Articles
Archers’ Magazine, The [TAM]
orig. “Operation Build-Up” What it is - June15-July 15, 1961
Bow & Arrow
orig. “Longbow Versus Recurve” - Sept/Oct 1963
Feathered Shaft, The
orig. “Types of Archery” - Dec. 1947
Field and Stream
orig. “A Bear Charges” - December 1934
orig. “Tigre on the Loose” - July 1949
Outdoor Life
orig. “Buffalo Hunt, Indian Style” - March 1936
orig. “The Lost Art of Stalking’ - September 1936 [part 1]
orig. “The Lost Art of Stalking’ - October 1936 [conclusion]
orig. “Wild Boar” - August 1937
orig. “A Bow for a Bighorn” - January 1938
orig. “Big Blue of the Flat Top” - November 1944
Popular Science
orig. “New Flight Bow Pulls Instead Of Pushes The Arrow” - June 1937
Sports Afield
orig. “Devil Cats” - May 1947
orig. “Big Thunder” – Castleton, Paul A. – April 1949
orig. “An Archer Goes To Africa” - February 1952
orig. “An Archer Goes To Africa, Part II” - March 1952
orig. “An Archer Goes To Africa, Part III” - April 1952
orig. “An Archer Goes To Africa, Part IV” - May 1952
orig. “An Archer Goes To Africa, Part V” - June 1952
orig. “An Archer Goes To Africa, Part VI” - July 1952
Ye Sylvan Archer
copy “Target Shooting As A Side Attraction” - May 1931
copy “A Tribute of Appreciation” - May 1936
copy “Field Archery at the National” - Dec. 1937
copy “Boars, Bullets, Brommers” - May 1938
Newspaper articles by Hill
The Miami News
text “Bow and Arrow, once implements of war, now popular in sports.” – January 31, 1931
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This is the type of the interesting stuff one can uncover when snooping around in old newspapers.
I've yet to find a later article covering the outcome of the match, so don't know for sure if it ever went down. There is a history of announcements by Hill planning or announcing future events that never materialized. If you use this article as the basis for claiming Hill played Hagen, it may or not be factual.
The Milwaukee journal – August 3, 1929
“Hagen, Smith to Match Drives With an Archer”
By Walter Hagen (British Open golf Champion)
Over a Boston course next Wednesday Horton Smith and I will try our skill against Howard Hill, archery champion. Hill will play our best ball and we have been told the match will be about even, although I believe the archery champion will defeat us.
There is growing interest in archery golf along the Maine coast, and at Newagen, Me. The first nine-hole archery golf course has been constructed with Hill as the professional. It is the only course of this type in the north.
Archery golf is played on a regular golf course or on a course especially constructed. The cup, a wire circle or target of the same diameter as a golf cup, is supported by a short wire standard slanting at an angle of 45 degrees. The arrow must pass through the wire target before a hole is completed.
Off the tee, Hill will have an advantage of more than 100 yards and I think that he will also stand a far better chance of getting down in one shot when on the greens than Horton and I.
Maine is having an active sports season. Horton smith and I have been playing exhibitions there and before we finish we will have played in Old Orchard, Kennebunk, Bangor, Skowhegan and Augusta. The finest course we have played in Maine is the Kenobscot Valley course in Bangor, along the Kenobscot River. The holes are of championship design and the scenery is magnificent.
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I make hard copies of every article or piece of information on every archery subject or archer I collect and compile information on.
I also maintain a Word Doc with every mention, note or bit of information on them for "any" source I find it in. Everything I record shows source information and all is placed in chronological order and stored in binders. Over the past 20 years or so I've went page by page through every archery magazine, article and book in my collection and loans from others. I can access every piece of information I've ever found on a subject of archer I follow very quickly. My files are always a work in progress as I ad information daily/weekly. Here's a short sample from Hill's file:
Archery Review - August 1935
55th National Tournament
The Art Young Round was very well attended, Mardee Robinson beating the old hunter, Howard Hill, by a margin of two points. This new round gives promise of being one of the best of drawing cards for all archers. Howard Hill did a lot of fancy shooting for the entertainment of us dubs on the low end of the line by shooting pennies at about five yards distance. A hit meant Howard’s penny and your loss. You might notice that [Hill's score] 566 American shot, snap shooting without a point of aim. [pg. 2]
Ye Sylvan Archer - April 1936
Elizabeth and Howard Hill and Don Carson recently went on a wild jackass hunt in the Mojave desert. The first day all three crawled and stalked and shot and missed. The language was getting a bit strong for Mrs. Hill and the next day she stayed at camp.
When the hunters returned, again without getting within range of any jacks, Elizabeth proudly displayed a big blue Dartha hawk she had shot through the head. Howard said that nobody could help but hit a target as big as a bird. Sweetly Elizabeth inquired what size jackasses the mighty hunters had been trailing that day. [pg. 5]
American Bowman-Review - May, 1937
The Last of the Veterans - Cassius H. Styles
...Howard Hill Arrived in a taxi from the Grand Central Station and was not thrilled by the size of his fare; it was either eighteen or twenty five dollars, I forget which. I drifted into his room one evening and was mildly told to string a little bow he pointed out that was leaning against the wall. I didn’t quite get the loop into the upper nock, and the reason was that the bow was his 172 pounder, with which he won that year’s flight shoot. In the room, enjoying the archery gab was Ray Work, second among the Juniors. [pg. 8]
[1928 N.A.A. National Tournament]
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Cliff.....you sure saved me alot of time, Thanks
Howard also had an aritcle in
"Hunter's Encyclopedia" p.878-899
1948 Stackpole and Heck, Inc.
Editor: Raymond R. Camp
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Cliff, I am always impressed with the amount of research you do and the data you develop on these topics. Thanks for sharing the information and these sources with us. Greatly appreciated as well as the other tips on where to search.
I went looking for a copy of Jim Deed's catalog and found it.
In addition, I emailed my friend John D. Lee and asked him for his thoughts on the topic. John kindly said that it would be fine with him for me to share his thoughts with our Forum members.
Here are John's thoughts: "No one knows for sure when he [Hill] started using bamboo. If you read Don Carson who spent time with Hill in Florida and the early days in California - there is no mention of it until he settled in Cal. I have a bow he made for Cy Johnson of three bamboo lams - the handle of yew and lemonwood with backing and side plates of vulcanized fiber which he used right up until he got Eicholz glass after WWII.
No one made the concave/convex cross section like his which he patented in 1941.
He learned to heat treat from flyrod builders. He liked Jap Cane Madake and thought Tonkin Cane too brittle. Howard was the only archer to use bamboo in the 30s & 40s as near as we can tell. Those who know the true story in re Hill's use of bamboo are all dead. Best wishes, John Lee"
I thought it would be interesting to share John Lee's thoughts as he has studied Howard's bows for a long time, has a nice collection and conversed with Howard about bow-making.
In searching for Deed's catalog, I came across Hill's two small pamphlets on shooting ["My Method of Shooting A Bow and Arrow"] and [Howard Hill presents Fine Points of Archery"].
Neither one of course addressed the topic at hand. In the forward to the latter pamphlet, he did note "My lucky number seems to be seven. During my long association with the sport, I won the National Archery Flight Chamnpionship seven consecutive times, and also won seven National Archery-Golf tournaments. I also have been credited with pulling the strongest bow ever drawn, one hundred seventy-two pounds". I hadn't realized he considered seven his lucky number.
Turning to Jim Deed's catalog, he begins by supplying the advantages of giant timber bamboo [I'm not sure what he means here]. "For many customers, in most cases amateur bow makers, the power of yew, osage, black locust, lemonwood, and other materials has doubled or trebled with the application of bamboo backings. A 30# yew up to 100# is the record.
During the past four years many thousands of pieces of this material have been used with a miniumum of complaints and an ever increasing demand for bamboo.
Fully matured and seasoned bamboo has the least give or stretch of any wood used for bows or backings. A given thickness of bamboo adds more power than the same thickness of wood, silk, sinew, or rawhide. Bamboo takes little set, if any. It has no appreciable "let-down" because of weather.
Bamboo is easily worked with ordinary woodworking tools, glues easily, and also recurves easily.
WARNING! Don't scrape nodes down flush and don't leave too much of the softer center on pieces you are laminating."
The catalog next furnishes instructions for preparing bamboo for backed bows.
He also sold laminated all bamboo bows as well as bamboo backed bows. Bamboo backings were available "in the rough" or "processed" [the latter meaning that they were ready to be applied to the bow].
For a finished laminated all bamboo bow with recurved tips in the 50-70# weight category, it went for $65.00 while a straight tipped bow in this weight category went for $55.00.
He was located in San Leandro, CA. The catalog notes that Jim Deeds is the founder and that Wm. I. Welker is the proprietor.
This is a most interesting 'thread' -- some excellent information here. I had never really given any thought as to how Howard Hill was exposed to bamboo as a bow wood in the first place and how he came to use it in his bow-making and shooting.
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There is always some confusion concerning when/how Hill damaged his leg. Here's the scoop.
Los Angeles Times – February 2, 1949
“Howard Hill, Archer, Hurt”
Howard Hill, world’s champion archer and screen notable, was in Glendale Sanitarium yesterday, his left leg crushed at the knee joint as a result of a jeep accident while on a shooting trip with Actor Guy Madison.
The archer was injured when the jeep, being driven by Madison, came to a sudden curve and overturned. The accident occurred in the Simi Valley, Near Moorpark, Monday
“I guess I’m going to have a bad time of it,” Hill said yesterday. Madison was uninjured in the mishap.
Hill explained that Madison and he were “just fooling around shooting bows and arrows’ before the accident took place.
If Cy Johnson's relationship with Flynn is correct, then Hill likely met Johnson through Flynn. That would put that bow at 1938 or later. I had read in another place it was dated 1933. Hill had just moved to California and was living on Brisbane's Ranch at that time and it is unlikely he was making anyone bows during that time.
By 1934 Hill has moved and opened shop in Los Angeles, advertising bow of Brommer's yew in his early ads in "Archery Review."
I do have first-hand information on Hill's bamboo I'll post later this evening.
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Interesting information on Hill's leg injury. I didn't know the details. Apparently he recovered okay. Since I only drive Jeeps, I had better keep this in mind.
I assume that "Flynn" is Errol Flynn! Who exactly is Cy Johnson?
I looked at Louis Hockman's book "The Complete Archery Book", which has some neat photos of and several articles by Howard Hill. Howard noted the need to get off shots at game quickly and said "Because of this, I like a bow that is consistently dependable under all the diversified conditions of the hunt.
Personally, I favor the straight-end longbow, not less that 5 feet 9 inches in over-all length, or 5 feet 8 inches betweeen nocks. A fair amount of backset to add speed is all right, but not too much. I make all my own bows, of split bamboo and Fiberglas face and back, by an intricate process I've developed and patented. I shoot an 85-lb. bow for all ordinary game, a 100-lb. bow for rhino and buffalo, and a 110-lb. for elephant, drawing a 28-inch arrow on all three of them. I believe in using a bow as heavy as I can pull without strain, because of the faster, flatter trajectory of such a bow, its greater range and greater penetration."
Just wondering if anyone has actually seen Howard Hill's patent, which evidently explains the process he used to make his bows?
I also emailed my friend Hugh Soar in England and asked him about the use of bamboo in bow-making in the UK. Hugh replied that he thought that "Hardy's, the Fishing tackle makers did so -they used split tonkin cane he thought and made the limbs in the same way as they did their fishing rods." Hugh thought that they may have also made cane arrows. Hugh also noted that the "Bros. Freeman sold a batch of cane shafts in the 1840's, but as far as Hugh knows, there were no really early users of bamboo for bows in the UK."
As a number of you know, Hugh Soar has written a number of books on the bow and archery. He now has another new book on the way entitled "Straight and True: A Select History of the Arrow" that should be available in the near future. Besides being a prolific writer on archery topics, he has a wonderful collection of bows and other archery artifacts.
Cliff, looking forward to your post later today on the "first hand information on Hills' bamboo".
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Doing a little more research, I see that Patent # 2256946 was granted to Hill on Sept. 23, 1941. But there may have also been a patent granted in 1939. There are probably a number of you who are way ahead of me on this patent question. :)
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Tox, I will have to dig through my stuff and look. The patent I have is for the construction of the Concave/Convex bows. It does not go into too much detail ect though.
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Flint kemper: Somewhere I actually have a book of archery patents that extend from the late 1800's until I believe perhaps the 1940's. My recollection is that Clem Parker [author of the "compendium of Works on Archery" and other archery books] compiled it. The problem is that unlike many of you - I am not well organized and don't know exactly where it is.
Of course, even if we have the actual patents they may not give us what we want. But, it doesn't hurt to investigate.
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Tox, I just found it. I have the 1941 patent. I will have to dig for a 39?
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Flint kemper, If it's helpful, let us know. By the way, I am not positive that there is a 1939 Patent. I saw a reference to it somewhere.
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Tox, I would like to be able to see the references you told about on the prevouis page from the Deed's book about processing of the bamboo.
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Flint Kemper, You are probably referring to his "Instructions for Preparing Bamboo for Backing Bows". This is a small pamphlet of 14 pages. The section on the above "Instructions" goes from pp. 2 to pp. 6 -- not a very long section, but it does have a few illustrations. Is this what you are asking about?
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Yes it is. I also just ran across this quote- " As time went on at South Bend, Jordan also invented a bamboo bow that famed archer Howard Hill used in archery tournaments."
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"My lucky number seems to be seven. During my long association with the sport, I won the National Archery Flight Chamnpionship seven consecutive times, and also won seven National Archery-Golf tournaments. I also have been credited with pulling the strongest bow ever drawn, one hundred seventy-two pounds". I hadn't realized he considered seven his lucky number.
Hill made two flight records at the Archery Golf Tournament at Opa-Locka in 1928 with one shot. His standing distance eclipsed both the free-style and regular standing records. He submitted his distance for the record and since the Archery Golf Tournament was sanctioned by the NAA, it was accepted. Hill never won another National Flight Championship and his records were beaten in 1929.
I don't know about the seven National Archery Golf Championships because I can only come up with three contests. He "technically" didn't win the first in 1928 because he didn't enter for the title, because he was the Pro running the Tournament. He did shoot the rounds and was low score. Later he had a lapse of memory and claimed the title as winning the pro division, but he was the only pro. :)
I have read that Cy Johnson was financial advisor or stockbroker of Errol Flynn. Don't know if that is true or not. But if it is, Hill most likely met Johnson through Errol Flynn. I believe Hill met Flynn in 1938, maybe 1937. If so, then Hill wouldn't have made Johnson a bow prior to those dates. And, Hill was likely not making bows for folks in 1933, he had just moved to the Brisbane Ranch and began filming "The Last Wilderness" in mid year. It was 1934 when he opened up his shop in Los Angeles.
The following was taken from the transcript of an interview with Frank Garske. He was well up in age but his recollection of stuff was pretty good. It may have lost a little when transcribed from the audio tape but pretty interesting none the less. I believe the Howard Hill outfit he is referring to is Ted Ekins and he was providing Ted information on Howard for the book Ekins published on Hill.
"Frank: I've sent bows back to them they were so bad..old Howard Hill outfit you know..#1 the bamboo is not very good anymore, still shoots ok, but it's,...shoddy workmanship and stuff at times, I couldn't believe.. I just wrapped them back up and said, hey, if you can't do better than why please give me my money back and oh, apologetic.you know, oh, yes, well, finally one guy was there, friend of Hills...
Interviewer: John Schultz?
FRANK; No...Stottler...he did a good job on bows...the guy was a craftsman. I think he made more Howard Hill bows..I think he was making them even when Howard Hill was claiming that he was making them...but Howard Hill did make a lot of bows, in fact boy, he went through that routine with me and you know I told his outfit...this Howard Hill outfit, exactly the way Howard was making the bows when I was there and I don't think they believed me...he was making them then out of...insides was…tonkin cane...and but at the outset he couldn't get that big a tonkin so he was using...he'd take the regular noted [noded] stuff and he had a little plane and he would plane the pith out of the thing and this plane would round it at the same curve that the stuff...he'd just strap it down to a thing and just...and that bow was the tough way to go,, now later he made a piece of equipment that you wound the stuff through and rounded and took the pith out as it went through....but it still had ...instead of straight across it had the curvature there...and he would lay ...had a big old box 6' long, just the width...1 1/2" wide and not…quite ....1 1/4" or so...wide and that piece of bamboo just fit snuggly in the bottom then he'd lay in the strips, get them fit in...and then the next one..they were different widths, so he'd overlap the joints on the next layer of things...when he was making them cause he didn't make them this way very long. I think he just plain ran out of..no more tonkin cane...they should have access to it now cause all the countries are open...it became bad countries there that we couldn't get into...well, and he was using...best thing they had in that day was casein glue and he was using casein glue to glue up these...boy he clamped them together positively on this whole thing when he got the top...the sides were hemmed in so they couldnt' go anywhere but boy he had these gillions of 1/4" pieces of metal and bolts...tightened up the bolts...until boy just pull that top thing down and that was the clamp and he would leave them in this thing for 3 months...to dry to,..and so he'd have a stack of them around in the various process and then he'd glue the riser on, he didn't glue the riser on all at once, he'd glue that on after the thing came out of it's first compression thing. So it was pretty tough...and they were popping apart a lot, that casein just wasn't the...until the war came on there I think they didn't even get into fonalic? glue until...and that was better than casein but then the epoxys didn't come until wartime I guess."
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Flint kemper, Do you want me to see if a scan will work and email the pages to you?
That is interesting info concerning South Bend and Hill.
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Tox, that would be great. My e-mail is [email protected] I will get the name of the book that quote came from. It is a flyfishing book. Thanks
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This is a link to the South Bend Bow patent.
www.google.com/patents/US1779277.pdf (http://www.google.com/patents/US1779277.pdf)
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The quote on Hill using a South Bend Bow can be found at this link under "Jordon the Rod Maker."
http://daverichey1.posterous.com/?tag=reviews
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flint kemper - Scans have just been sent.
Cliff, The quote about his lucky number being seven was in the forward to his little pamphlet on "how to shoot". I didn't know this piece of information either.
Thanks for the information on Cy Johnson.
When you identified the interviewer as John Schultz -- I assume you mean John Schulz of American Longbow? Interesting interview!
Can you tell us a little about Frank Garske, who he was and his involvement with Hill and the bow-making?
Apparently Stottler was highly regarded as a bow-maker. Can you outline his involvement with Hill and the making of the bows?
Glues were an issue [adhesives were an issue for a number of bow-makers] and a shortage of good bamboo. Good info.
Thanks for the links!
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Cliff..... :thumbsup: on the links :D Hink
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Schultz wasn't the interviewer, I didn't mentioned his name, simply identified him as interviewer. The interviewer was asking Garske if the fellow he mentioned just prior was Schultz, and Garske answered, "No, Stotler."
Frank Garske was a friend of Howard Hill, whom he met in 1939, though he had watched Hill shoot and perform beginning in 1935. Garske wrote a few articles for Archery magazine and built bows with Hill. He resembled Hill in size and features and shot heavy bows, and occasionally mistaken for Hill. He was a sculptor who live not far from Hill in California. He hung around with Dr. Kenagy, Hugh Rich and others of that era. A real man, maybe why he and Howard were friends, but there appeared to be some competitive drive between the two. Garske could hang with Hill physically.
Some more on the bamboo.
Bob Stotler Letter to Hugh Rich [1985]:
“In answer to your letter, I made a few yew wood bows with Howard before he obtained Bamboo then I made some bamboo bows with him. These bows were bamboo with bone fiber backs. They Howard made some with sinew backs. Then he made some with baleen [whale] back. I bought a bunch of baleen while in Point Barrow Alaska and gave it all to Howard for a xmas present; enough for about 30 bows.”
“I forgot to mention that Howard made a few tempered bamboo bows. He put the bamboo in an oven like box full of 100 watt lights and left them in until the bamboo turned a pretty tan color then he shut off the lights and cooled the bamboo slowly.
“This made for a much stronger strip, also harder. These were bows that he used in competition and exhibition shooting.”
Hugh Rich letter to Bob Stotler [1985]:
“I remember I [Hugh Rich] tried to tell him to put a thin layer of white hickory over the bamboo, to hold down the grain mix at the nodes and then protect the hickory with calf skin or fiber. All he said was, “It takes too much time”----I even talked to him about trapezoid limb cross section, and he said I was an idiot------
Winter 1990 “Traditional Bowhunter” – Interview with Bob Stotler:
Bob Stotler met Howard Hill in 1936.
“….Other free time would be spent at the shop learning the art of being a bowyer from Howard Hill, who taught me how to make yew wood, lemon wood, and Osage orange bows with and without backing. We made about 300 of those and then we made 1100 or so bamboo bows, both laminated with fiberglass and with various backings, such as baleen and others. We also made about 600 recurves of different shapes and configurations.”
I need to dig around some more and maybe I can find something else.
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Great info Cliff. Thanks
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Cliff, Excellent information -- thanks for taking the time to share it. This helps to answer many questions!
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Cliff, Some real nice info thanks for digging that up
Heres another patent link for the SouthBend Bow that has changed their construction somewhat 1930/1934...Hink :cool:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=E3VAAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
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The first public notice of Howard Hill and archery I've located. I believe this to be the very first publication of Hill and archery and I'm sticking with it until someone finds an earlier one. :)
The Miami News - February 26, 1927
(http://i544.photobucket.com/albums/hh338/spikeknife/Scan.jpg)
Ad announcing Howard Hill's first archery business in California. This one is from the December, 1934 Archery Review. This ad may have run in an earlier edition as I don't have a complete run of AR to verify.
(http://i544.photobucket.com/albums/hh338/spikeknife/1934.jpg)
My thoughts on Hill and bamboo based upon the information posted on this thread.
It appears Hill first played with bamboo in 1931 or so. From there to the late 1930s, there is little to suggest he did any significant work with bamboo.
It was only after Stotler went to work for Hill in 1936 or so did bamboo became a staple material for his bows. From there forward is pretty well documented.
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"The Complete Archery Book" by Louis Hochman contains some neat photos of Howard Hill [1957]. On pp. 80 there is a picture of Howard and the caption to the pic is "Howard Hill dries his bows with heat of a blow torch directed into improvised drying chamber." On page 103, there is a statement that Hill likes the distance between the base of the nock and the rear of the feather to be 3/4 inch. Apparently, some like at least 1 1/2 inches while Ted Ekin considers 1 inch sufficient. On pp. 109 there is a picture of Howard Hill and Guy Madison in Howard's workshop going over equipment prior to going on a hunting trip. Thought I would share!
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Glenn Curtiss had not hired Howard Hill for the Opa-Locka archery golf Club by January 5, 1927 according to a letter he wrote Don Carson. He came aboard a week or so after. I just located this ad, which is a few days earlier than the other I posted. There can't be too many earlier. :)
Tox - While in Portland for the upcoming PBS Banquet I will visit Ted Fry and finally get to handle and photo the Don Carson bow that is made from "Florida snakewood." That's on top of spending some time with two of my grandsons. I'm really looking forward to my four days there.
I'd forgotten about the Hockman book. It does have some good stuff on Hill.
February 20, 1927.
(http://i544.photobucket.com/albums/hh338/spikeknife/Feb201927.jpg)
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Cliff, Good info. -- have a great visit!
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bump
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Definitely worth the "bump" as I enjoyed this history lesson again.
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Fascinating indeed!!
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Thanks for sharing all of your Archery History knowledge to all of us ... fascinating indeed!