I had a situation that made me realize that if a tracking dog was available it would have made life easier. The deer was finally recovered but by sheer luck. The question is what are the best breeds for tracking for recovery of deer? It would have to be a small breed. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
See:
http://www.born-to-track.com
Jeff, they are good looking dogs. I have two short legged jack russel terrorist. Last year when I shot some does, I put my male on the trail and he went right to it. I found a purebreed female in Kentucky in the pound. She was about a year old. This dog is unbelievable. For the price of the adoption at 60.00, could not go wrong. I know some folks use jacks alot for this purpose. I thought about getting the wire haired. Maybe next time. I am dog poor at 6 right now.
vdd-gna.org
Im looking into a German Shorthair for tracking deer and bird hunting.They say they are versatile dogs.Also, look into a Bavarian Mt. Curr if you want a dog for tracking only.Hard to locate but they say theyre unbeatable trackers.
Bavarian Mountain Hounds are supposed to be excellent trackers. As mentined above hard to find and you will problably need a finance counselor to afford one. I had a froend put a deposit on one this year and later decided to hold off.
I do know from experience the dahschsunds (sp?) have incredible tracking ability.
if you are looking for a versatile dog for blood tracking and upland game check with the North American Versatile Hunting Dog Association. NAVHDA has chapters all over the US and would be your best source for finding a bloodline where the true versatile ability is still being bred for. In NA we tend to focus more on the upland ability for these dogs and focus breeding efforts on those qualities. So, be sure to find a line of GSP's that are breeding and testing dogs for bloodtracking ability.
The Europeans place a bigger emphasis on tracking and thus a lot of the better lines have close ties to european bred dogs. Do a search on the web and you will find all your looking for.
I think it's a great idea. I just have too many bird dogs and can improvise with them if needed.
I worked as wildlife biologist and guide at Willow Point Island. Being bowhunting only we had numerous opportunities to track deer. We used well trained labs. Without hesitation I will say it was unbelieveable to me to witness what these dogs did. They would actually track a NONfatal wounded deer and kill it. The wounded:find deer ratio statistics would be horrendous if it weren't for those labs. Also the super fast bows and light arrows were the most important problems.
I spent most of my formative hunting years (circa 1967) around dog hunters and actively hunted deer with dogs until around 1995 myself. Mostly blueticks, black and tans, beagles, walkers and a few redbones. I would say pretty much any hound and most sporting breeds can track wounded game though without a lot of training. Most any mutt can track too, but you might have to spend more time with them and some may never get it. But I would say there is no "best" breed. Some are better on cold tracks and some get distracted with other non-targeted tracks, but following their nose is what dogs do. Train them right and most any dog will find wounded game, which is the hottest of hot tracks. - eric
i bought "tracking dogs for finding wounded deer". The books seems to suggest shorter legged breeds becauses of basic physics. There nose is just closer to the scent and they cant out pace you as easily.
The wire haired dashound is a great tracking dog but a little pricey. A good friend was considering a wirehaired but received a beagle puppy as a gift. This dog has proved to be a terror when it comes to tracking wounded deer. My buddy will not go hunting without him. He is a real hit in their bowhunting circles. :campfire:
My own deer dog is a Blue Lacy. She found her first deer last year when she was 5 months old. That deer went 3/4 of a mile,and would`nt have been found otherwise. She went on to find 6 more last year. Any hunter,anywhere they live should find the person a head of time in thier area with a deer dog as they will find any deer that has shed blood and is dead.
Although I love my Lacy,I think a dachsaund is the way to go. They wont run off and leave you because they cant and they are built with their nose at the ground and if they get hurt they are easier to carry out.
The book mentioned in above borntotrack is well worth the price. The name of it says it all, "Tracking Dogs for finding Wounded Deer".
My Lab Bridger, mentioned in TBM Apr/May '07 has to date found 7 deer and 2 bear. Some of the most incredable tracking job he's done were on deer he didn't find and probably didn't die. I'll be working with him a half to a mile from the hit site thinking that this dog has no idea at what he's doing, then all of a sudden there's blood.
I'm having a bit of a problem with him that might not be a problem. The last two deer he found he found by winding the body (gut shot). Now, the last deer he didn't find, he seemed not to want to trail. He was "body searching" running with his nose in the air. I think with the snow in late season I can get him back on trailing, because the blood will be easier for me to see.
If you've thought "bowhunting" couldn't get any better, get a dog for trailing. One of Bridger's first blood trails was on a doe that a friend shot and we knew we'd find. After he found it the friend said, "Watching Bridger do the blood trail was as much fun as shooting the deer."
Bowmania
Well I too bought the above mentioned book. My wife and kids brought home a "mutt" this summer. Seems a curr from the neighbors coyote dog pen came to visit the neighbor's champion lab. I was POd at having a new dog until I heard the bloodlines.
I am still working with her, but I will tell you she gets better feed now than that first few weeks. I put a lead on her for the first time in August and in October she found her "first" deer: a doe I had already arrowed/found. Since then she is 5 for 5. It's a bit of a pain to back out, go get her, and put her on the trail when I know the deer is down, but it will pay off when I arrow one of these monsters a little far back! I knew nothing of hunting dogs when I stumbled into her, and she has taught me alot. I'll document her next "find" with pics and a blow-by-blow account for those of you who are interested. I still have one tag left. This one will be Katie's (except the meat will go to me!).
This is great information. I have hunted with beagles when I was young and have used Labs in field trials. Labs are too big for my purpose. I want something easy to take in and bring out. Something that will remian with you as you drag a down deer out of the woods. I will try to get a pup of some breed this spring. Just like dogs. Now to convence my wife.
I've just gotten a beagle pup to start on this.
From my research it seems that the concensus is that for blood trails less than 24 hours old in good scent conditions, almost any dog will do the job. However, for the older trails and poor conditions, the dogs that have been bred for it will be superior. The Wire Haired Doxy and the Bavarian Hound are among the ones that I've heard of.
Obviously, a lot of other breeds can do the job, it's just that you have a better chance of a good cold trailing dog from the breeds that have been bred for it for generations. John Jeanneney at Born-To-Track tests his pups for trailing aptitude before he will sell one. I understand that his success ratio is really good, but even he has the occasional pup that doesn't have it.
By the way, not all lines of wire haired dashounds will make great trackers. Only the lines like Johns that have been bred for it (mostly of European origin) will be superior trackers.
I recommend that you get John's book. It's a gold mine for blood tracking. Everything you need to know is in there.
Good luck,
Allen
Care to guess which breed I have used in this application and would personally recommend?
Before you rush out to buy a dog - any dog - to "just track deer" with, be certain to ask yourself how the breed will fit in with your family's lifestyle THE OTHER 355+ DAYS A YEAR.
Deerfly nailed it with his comment above. Choose wisely...
If it was entirely my choice, my first pick would be a weimreiner. However, I don't really want a big dog, and my sweetheart most certainly dioes not want a big dog. Her pick would be one of those useless teacup mutts. We have jointly decided a beagle fits our desires best. Great scenting ability for me, (though she won't be making tripsto the duck blind that is a small price to pay), and cute as a button for the little woman.
Don't know when I will have "Missy", but the sooner the better.
I have had to use the local tracking service once, back when I shot wheels. I hit the deer great, had great blood for about 150 yards and then nothing.
The guy showed up within 45 minutes with is wire haired daschund. Alex(the dog) found the deer within minutes of being on the trail. Of course, there wasnt much left of it, seems the coyotes ran him down(thus the lack of blood the last 150 yards) and ate everything but the shoulder he was laying on and his neck. I never would have recovered what was left if it werent for that dog, so I think tracking dogs are a great asset.
As for the breeds, I think it is a personal preference. Almost any dog can smell well enough to do the task...I plan on training my brit to do so.
Michael Schneider at United Guide and Outfitter (a TradGang sponsor) uses tracking dogs to recover moose and bear in his hunting operation. He has also recently started a Canadian tracking dog group. Michael has a DVD, named Moose Country, which includes a segment on training and using tracking dogs for recovering big game. I feel this would be a good DVD to buy if you are interested in seeing a trained tracking dog in action. I hunted with Michael and I was impressed with his dogs!
I will agree with others about the value of John's book. It covers every aspect of bloodtrailing. I got started in this last year with the purchase of a jagdterrier puppy. Suzy just loves to track and has been easy to train. All she needs now is plenty of experience.
As to the different breeds, I only have a couple of reccomendations. First, you need to get a dog that has the desire to track. Just any dog won't cut it. There are pups in every breed that will track but buy a pup from a line that is bred for trailing. It will have much more desire and be easier to train. Second, pick a pup that is from one of the smaller breeds. You can get very tired of being dragged through heavy brush and briars by a large dog. Smaller dogs are just easier to handle. They are also better for keeping in the home.
Bill I also have a Jagdterrier. Easy to train and just the right size.
here another link of interest for this subject
http://www.unitedbloodtrackers.org/
Glad to hear you like your jagd George. They are a great all round hunting dog and can be used for about anything. I have trained many bird dogs and several coon hounds but have never had a pup with the desire to hunt that my jagd has. Suzy absolutely goes nuts when she see's me getting her tracking harness out. There's no doubt that she knows whats up and loves doing it.
My yellow lab not quite mature yet will retrive and I believe will blood trail if needed.Every time I cooked deer this past spring, summer,fall took the blood and made a drag trail and reward at the end, some of the deer or a weiner.He loves to trail and loves the retriveing also.Kip
Shorthairs are great. Tracking is one of the many instincts besides pointing they have been breed for. I've had four and they all tracked shot deer and never ran deer that we were not tracking. The one I have now even tracked a poor hit bear to it's final resting place and I was glad to have her up front then me. But small they are not. 40lbs on up
at my uncles deer camp where I gun hunt, we have a pack of four catahoula curs that are experts at tracking deer and hogs
And lets not forget some of the "working" breeds. My little Blue Heeler does a great job of finding---and it didn't take very much effort to teach her. The cattle dogs are highly intelligent and eager to please. Not only that, but you get a rugged dog that is small and manageable enough to be a great family friend the rest of the year(like Labs4me said earlier). I am trying to get a German Shepherd to do the same right now, and am seeing pretty good progress.
Although I think a tracking dog for poorly hit deer is good idea, In Iowa I'm not sure it is legal to use dogs in any way for deer hunting. we did use a griffon once and he did find the deer, but like I said I am not sure we were legal. We did make sure to leave the bowhunter that hit his first deer behind, then called him to let him know we found it.
QuoteOriginally posted by herkimerhunter:
Im looking into a German Shorthair for tracking deer and bird hunting.They say they are versatile dogs.Also, look into a Bavarian Mt. Curr if you want a dog for tracking only.Hard to locate but they say theyre unbeatable trackers.
Hey Bro.........
You find a dog that can handle birds and track deer you give me a call and we will be rich. Don't listen to all that NAVHDA garbage. I have been playing the bird dog game for over 20 years and have titled a ton of them.
Bird dogs and deer is where the common saying getting a degree from Spark U came from.
Without bird dogs and deer we would not have electronic training collars today......................
Tim :cool:
Compared to squirrels, rabbits and birds, a deer leaves a lot more scent. We can even smell a rutting buck when conditions are right. Almost any breed of dog could be trained to track and find them. We have a Chow that found the first deer she was put on with no prior work. I believe it is possible to have a dog that could double as a family pet and deer tracker.
Not all bird dogs do. And not just bird dogs I am sure there are a lot of dogs that can and will take to deer.
I am saying that the last thing I want one of my pointers doing is paying attention to deer. Be it dead or alive. A lot of the German breeds are used for this purpose to this day in Europe. One of the largest groups is the VDD group which is here in the states also.
In europe these dogs will carry a dowel attached to their collar by a piece of latigo and will return with the dowel in their mouth to indicate they have found game.
I actually worked with a german wirehair that was a german champion dog straight from Munich. This dog had passed the tough test along with all the other criteria involved in this type of accomplishment based on german standards which marks the tracking of fur at a very high regard.
This particular dog would go out and find birds and then return to me and push my leg in the direction of his find. Then would lead me the area and establish point. A serious and undesirable fault in the states based on our standards and criteria in how we test and trial dogs here. It can be construed as "Blinking" which is a disqualify under any U.S. standards being NSTRA or any other governing group for that matter.
This dog was finally shot by a farmer here in Washington M ichigan for continually attacking and killing his sheep.
My point being is that if you run dogs like I do, then you don't want a pure bird dog to chase any type of fur. Fur and birds don't mix at the level I expect from a bird dog period. And under any type of formal performance competition in this country such as Grouse Trials right here in Gladwin or field trials or hunt tests where the dog is expected to do what it was bred for (PointingBreeds) it is cause for immediate disqualification.
My statement is such............
True bird dogs do not chase fur. And I am not alone in my thinking as there literally thousands of guys who campaign dogs in this country that feel the same way.
The comment about the collars was a little bit of a joke but true.
Why do you think Tri Tron ics has a long range collar called the "Trashbreaker"?
Not to mention dogs running live deer in Michigan is illegal.
Tim ;-)
And in Michigan dogs used for tracking purposes must be kept on a leash.
Just a little FYI
Tim
I have seen several blood trailing dogs work and the best by far was a fat old girl named Ginger. She was a Welsh Corgi, I think a lot has to do with the owner dog relationship. If the dog really wants to please its master they can have an average nose, as they make up for it in hard work. Shawn
You have an interesting perspective on the role of "true" bird dogs. I've had the good fortune to be owned by a few good Labs over the years and can tell you that although they are bred to be "birds dogs", they most assuredly posess the aptitude and desire to be used to hunt/track virtually anything, including "fur", without it effecting their usefulness as a bird dog or "test dog". Incidently, on the way to earning their titles, my Labs have TAUGHT ME that the word "NO!" is infinitely more effective than a shock collar...and requires fewer batteries too.
Respectfully,
Labs
QuoteOriginally posted by Labs4me:
You have an interesting perspective on the role of "true" bird dogs. I've had the good fortune to be owned by a few good Labs over the years and can tell you that although they are bred to be "birds dogs", they most assuredly posess the aptitude and desire to be used to hunt/track virtually anything, including "fur", without it effecting their usefulness as a bird dog or "test dog". Incidently, on the way to earning their titles, my Labs have TAUGHT ME that the word "NO!" is infinitely more effective than a shock collar...and requires fewer batteries too.
Respectfully,
Labs
And respectfully your dogs are retrievers....................
Correct...great with kids, jack of all trades (master of none) flushing, tracking, hunting RETRIEVERS...
Tilly...my wire haired Daschund that never got her whiskers :) just tracked out my last doe that was hit high. When she's on the trail it's hard to stop her to mark blood sign. I track her on a 20 foot line...Doc
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Tilly/IMG_2361.jpg)
(Just when I thought I was out of opinions...)
I had a cocker spaniel that earned his AKC TD under two years (could have been sooner, maybe...) and, if it hadn't been killed, I sure it would have earned a TDX in the next year.
Not just any cocker: a King Charles variety. 39# and 13". Worked well in a harness. Short legged enough that a 30' lead didn't frustrate it. Didn't make a sound when on track. Cast and quartered the track it was put on and wouldn't be distracted.
I know: when you think tracking dog, you don't think cocker spaniel. But it was an excellent tracker!
I wish I had time to raise another...
basadhound great nose verry slow paced
the master tracker on our lease and for hire in the area is a mountain feist- aka rat terrier... I laffed when I was told the first season before the bow opener, if you shoot one leave the deer, call me as I'll be in camp with the dog and want to get the dog ready for gun season... well the lil doe made it bout 40 yds and folded up.. I heard it crash and said they needed to hurry... 15 minutes later here comes the pres with his lil dog... He went right to it.. nice pace to track with in the dark too... I've heard numerous stories of non fatally wounded deer to be tracked 2+ miles the day after and dispatched... no one whose seen it in action doubts this lil dog...
I doubted the lil dog, but my eyes have seen what that dog can do... but man that lil dog is tenacious lil tracker...
and the phone rings off the hook during gun season... a great house dog and also rides well in a milk crate strapped down on the front rack of a 4 wheeler... is an A-1 buddy to his master- not to mention he earns his keep and them some each year... This dog has good house manners and is very protective and will bark his fooled head off when someone pulls up to the house... He's getting older, but is great with kids and has as much heart as any dog I've seen twice his size...
BTW- I am a big dog guy with two wonderful labs in the house... but my next dog may just be a feist... not to mention a good squirrel dog for when deer season is over...
Guys...
My belief is that there is no one "best" dog. Clearly some breed would lend themselves to TRACKING better than others, but really, don't sell your dog short. You'd be amazed at what MOST dogs are capable of. I think we can all agree on the notion that ALL dogs are more capable of tracking BY SCENT than we are. Besides, once you've put your best effort into locating a downed deer without success- once the blood trail has run dry- what would it hurt to bring your "other hunting buddy" out to give it a whirl.
Here in Michigan where the winters can be long and brutal once the bow season comes to an end, there's nothing that I enjoy more than getting home from work (that's the part I like best!), grabbing my Lab, my bow and my back quiver and chasing bunnies for an hour behind the house. It would be misleading to say that I take a lot of rabbits with my archery tackle, but I do get my shots and LOTS of exercise and quality time with my dog.
To me the highlight of this thread has been seeing pictures of everyone's dog. NICE PICTURES gang! Aside from traditional archery, one of my other passions is DOGS and in my view there is no such thing as a bad dog.
Labs
Bart, the Basset Hound.
He was a farting, food stealing, digging up the yard, girl chasing, pick-up seat trashing, window smearing, shoe eating, tracking machine.
Out of desperation, he was called out to see what he could do on a lost deer hit with a .243.
The buck of a lifetime, for a seventy yr old lady
who had a PERFECT record of never hitting and not recovering an animal.
He was my rabbit dog, and I was worried it would ruin him for rabbits. But we had to try.
Long story short, with only her word that she was sure her bullet connected, we found her double beamed 20 inch 11 point, two hundred yards from where he was hit. No blood sign or hair whatsoever. Gut shot.
He just figured out what we were up to and did it.
From that point on, he went on all the blood trails I could get involved in. He recovered at least a dozen deer that would have been tough if not impossible to find. It taught me that severely wounded deer WILL NOT travel more than 250 yds, before laying down, and if you back out and give them time, and not push them, that is where you will find them. It also taught me that if a deer is pushed from its first bed, there is no telling how far it will travel before stopping.
He was always restrained with a harness, and when he trailed, he would not sound out loud, only wimpers and groans. Sometimes he could "sense" a deers location, and often look to the direction of the deer before we got to it, as he was tracking. Often he would stop, twenty to thirty feet away, and go no further. Especially if the deer was still alive.
For some reason, good dogs don`t seem to live long.
I can see the benefit, of smaller dogs as trackers. I have a daschound, who will be old enough next yr to start, and see what she will do.
Well, I have 3 dogs at home: a yellow lab, english setter (bird dog only) and a cavalier king charles spaniel- my wifes lap dog. Was going to start training the lab to be a tracking dog, but the little spaniel has showed some decent skill in finding morsels I throw into the snow. Not real sure my wife will be hip on using her $1000 lap dog to find a blood trail and blood covered deer, but I sure would like to see how the little fellow does. ;)
I cleaned this one up....no problem with tracking dog threads, long as they are civil.
Carry on......
Labs, you do realize these dogs do not track fur? They are blood trailing dogs as if they tracked deer well they would go nots jumping one after another. I agree with ya though that any dog can and will work but some breeds are just better or more suited to it, just like your labs for ducks, yes they do it all but their specialty is ducks. Shawn
Thanks for bringing this back up Terry.
You fellas and ladies that live in states that do not allow dogs for tracking deer can get involved in persuading your state officials to consider this. There is information on the deer search and united bloodtracker sites to help with this. Illinois gave the okay a few years ago.
Getting back to the breeds....the wirehaired daschund is probably the ultimate bloodtrailer because of their superior scenting ability. That and being small makes them number one in my book. One that has the right breeding can track lines exceeding 48 hours.
Most of us can get by with a dog with somewhat less scenting prowess as we won't be taking many 48 hour tracks. I settled on a jagdterrier for a couple reasons. Field bred daschunds are nonexistant in my area and I didn't want to be put on a waiting list. I was lucky enough to find a new litter of jagds and took advantage. The other reason is Cheryl and Matt at Shiloh have used a jagd for tracking hogs with great success.
This thread could use some comic relief... Here's a shot of my little German co-pilot.
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1235.jpg)
Blood trailing is serious business.. which leads to serious naptimes!!
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1129.jpg)
CKruse
The end result is a team that works..
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/fredoct07.jpg)
Missouri added a statute this year allowing the use of leashed tracking dogs. It was allowed administratively in the past on an individual case basis by the applicable Conservation Agent. Just to echo a few thoughts here, I believe everyone should read John Jeanneny's book whether you intend to train a dog or not. If you are considering it, get the book by all means. A lot of facts and misnomers regarding breed selection, training, and the place of the dog in the family are discussed. Keep in mind this gentleman has spent the bigger part of a lifetime focusing on this specialized area of training. John and Jolanta were extremely helpful to me, and this is coming from a guy who did not buy a dog from them. (Not that I would hesitate to.) They have done more to further this cause than anyone else, and have the primary and major bloodline of hunting dachshunds in the United States. I hope you enjoyed the pictures of my 1 year old Fred and his bald headed owner! CKruse
Well my 4 legged owner brought me something odd today. I pulled up into the yard and saw what I thought was a ribcage. Thinking she had drug up something dead I was amazed to find a shed...a fresh shed. I'll post a pic later if I can. All I can think of is a stressed deer or EHD deer that recovered but lost it's horns. I've seen pics of their hooves and joints that looked swollen and cracked. It would have scored in the 150s with a 18 inch spread! I'm going to call the game biology guy tomorrow to see what he thinks. Heck it would have been in my top 3. I've never seen this deer and I know Katie doesn't leave the property more than an acre or 2.
That dog of mine continues to amaze me. She recovered 5 deer this year for the family: all of which I would have found anyway, but you never know when that shot may not be right and you're going to need a nosy dog! Besides, I think I've found my new shed hunting partner.
I do like the breeds mentioned but is there anyone using a beagle for this purpose. Being a keen nose and Hound I would have thought there would be more individuals using beagles. Any input?
Tim, my GSP's track blood not fur. Not one ever chased a deer but they sure have pointed a ton of Grouse, Woodcock and Pheasents and found a bunch of deer freinds and I have shot. I could care less about Grouse trials because I hunt for fun not ego. My dogs do what I want them to do and that's the bottom line. So to the person that wants a pointing dog and wants it to track shot deer, don't worry about, the dogs not going to because a cold blooded deer and sheep killers.
Yep- what Shawn said...
QuoteOriginally posted by killinstuff:
Tim, my GSP's track blood not fur. Not one ever chased a deer but they sure have pointed a ton of Grouse, Woodcock and Pheasents and found a bunch of deer freinds and I have shot. I could care less about Grouse trials because I hunt for fun not ego. My dogs do what I want them to do and that's the bottom line. So to the person that wants a pointing dog and wants it to track shot deer, don't worry about, the dogs not going to because a cold blooded deer and sheep killers.
Thats awesome!!!! "killinstuff"
Im no bird hunting fool, so a dog for me would be primarily a family pet.My old sheperd Honey(RIP) was a tremendous deer tracker finding several lost deer but had to be kept on a leash or she would run live deer when they were sighted on a track.I shot bunnies and woodcock over my pitbull Nina whos still kickin at 15 but she was never put on a bloodtrail of a wounded deer although Im sure shed succeed since she always manages to find every dead beast within a mile of her and unfortunately likes to bathe in them.So I get the feeling that any dog can multi task even if they cant show or compete.
There was recently a young bloodhound mix at the local shelter. I was really htinking hard about it. Anyone have experience with bloodhounds for tracking a downed deer?
I have a friend that has a bloodhound. Most incrediable nose on this dog. Never seen anything lik it.
My dog is cocker, he is cute, aggressive, points pheasants, and tries to retrieve them but the arrow always thwarts his attempt if it is still in the pheasant. He will also drive you nuts when butchering, cooking, or handing out venison jerky. He's got a real taste for venison. He also has a nasty habit of finding every dead deer in the woods when we go rabbit hunting after the deer seasons close.
One point, a dog that flushes and retrieves rabbits will need a flee bath after the hunt. An important consideration for a dog that insists on sleeping in the same bed you do.
Laddy:
Your last point should not be discounted. Here in Michigan, we've already had temps down into the teens and significant snow accumulation on several occassions, yet the rabbits still have a few fleas on them. For this reason, I do not allow my Lab near a shot rabbit. When used as a bunny dog, he serves as a flusher only. I handle the retireves! This is where the commands, "Sit and STAY!" come in handy.
As an extra precaution I always cleaned my rabbits at a makeshift cleaning station several hundred feet from the house and typically leave my outer hunting clothes on a fence post for several hours and then shake them out before bringing them into the garage. This has been my system for over a decade and (knock on wood) fleas have never been an issue.
I'm glad this one was brought back too.
Tracking a wounded animal is probably one of the easiest things to teach a dog to do, assuming the trainer/dog relationship is good. Actually few things are more fun to a dog than to chase deer, wounded or otherwise, which is why it can be a problem in some areas. Pretty much any dog will pick up a fresh trail pretty easily once they figure out thats what you want them to do.
Most of my dog hunting experience has been with the "conventional" hound breeds on deer, hogs and raccoons. But every so often someone shows up to a hunt with some nearly unidentifiable mutt that'll run with the rest of them or even lead in some cases. After you've seen enough of this you realize its not entirely a hound or sporting breed characteristic, its just a dog thing.
The real breed vs breed differences come into play when you have cold and hot nosed dogs in the pack and they get separated following different tracks. Or you have some dogs that have not been "broke" on 1 species and will often break off the original track to go after something else more interesting to them like a raccoon, fox or hog and take a handful of the rest of the pack with them. This is where the training discipline and breed characteristics affect what you're trying to accomplish with the dogs.
I think this is where Tim's comments on pointers and birds comes into play too. Personally, I've never seen a pointing breed that was also used to track game, where the pointing wasn't negatively affected by the dog wanting to track an animal at some point during a bird hunt. I'm speaking more about quail hunting where deer also exist. If you're a serious bird hunter then you probably won't train your dogs to track game.
Tbilisi, beagles are excellent tracking dogs. Just don't expect them to sit quietly in the truck or back at camp as he/she watches you go off into the field. There will be hell to pay until they're out in front of you showing you how you're supposed to be doing it. :)
Quote
I think this is where Tim's comments on pointers and birds comes into play too. Personally, I've never seen a pointing breed that was also used to track game, where the pointing wasn't negatively affected by the dog wanting to track an animal at some point during a bird hunt. I'm speaking more about quail hunting where deer also exist. If you're a serious bird hunter then you probably won't train your dogs to track game.
Bingo! We have a WINNER!
Great thread. I got a minature short hair Dox for my kids early this year. This did some research and found out that the Dox is very good at this stuff. I thougth what the heck I will try it. First chance I got to get some deer blood to train I did. I have been very pleased with it. I did shoot a deer and had it trial it, easy trail but he loves it. I think he migh do a good job. The big problem I see is being a small short hair dog he get cold to fast.
CKruse - what part of MO are you in? Would like someone close to compair notes with. you can send me a prive message if you want.
One of the problems with labs is their size. I need leather gloves so my hands arn't rubbed raw.
On the other hand, Bridger is a yellow lab that's almost pure white, there is NOTHING that looks better than that white fur stained with red blood.
Bowmania
My daughter has a dox, that dog could find a vole in a squirrel factory, and chewing gum in a hay stack, but when their problem bear comes calling or when a town friendly bobcat made the space under their front porch home for a cold snap last winter he goes deaf, dumb and blind. he is always cold, International falls, MN. Come to think of it, maybe he knows which fights not to pick.
Kerwin, My daschund doesn't get cold tracking cause she is really revved up. But once she finds the deer and I have to tie her up to clean it...different story! My wife made me a Polar fleece bag that zips up with her head out. I just carry that in my back pack when tracking...Doc
Tippit, I thought of something like that. As you said if he is tracking he don't seem to be cold. But when that short hair and 9 pounds of skin and bones stops he sure shivers. I have only had him on one real trail and severl traing trails and hope to get him on another real trail or two this year. I ahve been collecting blood and hide to do training on the off season. The book that everyone has talked about "Tracking Dogs for Finding Wonded Deer" is the best. Got it last summer and it was well worth the $
Kerwin, I'm in Neosho, right in the SW corner of the state.
Tracking jobs, like tracking dogs, come in different shapes and sizes. What works for one part of the country and local customs may not be ideal or even legal in another. Till you get down to training a dog, most people probably believe that most dogs can trail a wounded animal. This may be so to an extent. The difference is, adding 20-40 hours to that track, interspersed with the tracks of numerous healthy animals, tough conditions, etc. This is what separates a dog bred and trained to do an outstanding job at the task, and one that might get by under easy or ideal circumstances.
The dog I aspire to own, and am working hard to train is the one that can iron out the tough ones under the worst conditions. For the guys that have never seen a hunting dachshund, a lot of them laugh at first- thinking of the average American pet counterpart. Till you've seen one go down a den hole and take hold of a mature red fox, bay a russian boar, or the myriad of other hunting duties they are capable of, you just don't understand what you've got there. I also prescribe to the European way of keeping their animals. The average hunting dog in Europe whether it be a Teckel(dachshund), Weimar, Pointer, or whatever is kept in the home like a pet. Most are very close companion dogs, and a number of them multi-task. Most American hunting dogs are kept kenneled and used more as a tool, kind of akin to getting your shotgun out to hunt birds. I think it may just be a societal difference.
My experience is limited at this time, but I'm more than happy to assist in any way. The best advice I can give is to get the book and adapt what parts of it you need for your purpose. I would also encourage anyone interested to join United Blood Trackers. It is an invaluable source of information, and is a growing network of tracking dog owners. CKruse
CKruse
Quote:
"Most American hunting dogs are kept kenneled and used more as a tool, kind of akin to getting your shotgun out to hunt birds. I think it may just be a societal difference."
CK...Thanks for the best laugh of the day!!!
KENNEL DOGS?????
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/northernmichigan/NatAndDog.jpg)
Think you're man enough to put these Labs in a kennel??? LOL
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/northernmichigan/IMG_0835-1.jpg)
A future Trad Ganger in the making...
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/northernmichigan/MontyBow.jpg)
Bowmania, I see you are from Wisconsin as I am. For some reason I didn't think it was legal to use dogs on deer. Could you fill me in on the legalities.
Guys:
On the chance that this thread actually inspires someone to acquire a new huntin' buddy - WHATEVER BREED YOU CHOOSE - do yourself a favor and buy the book (or borrow my copy!), "The Labrador Shooting Dog" by Mike Gould. Mike is the absolute master of "soft" dog training techniques and his methods fly directly in the face of the shock collar-pain avoidance dog training which is as prevelent these days as compound bows.
IF...
1) Your goal is to build a relationship with your future hunting buddy (again, whatever the breed) based on MUTUAL trust, respect and affection- this is the book for you.
2) Your desire is to end up with a well rounded, obedient, hunt anything, go-to-the-end-of-the-earth-to-please-you hunting companion, THIS is the book for you.
3) Your desire is to end up with a dog you can travel with, take anywhere, and trust in any situation, this is the book for you.
Just an absolutely fantastic book and I've read 'em all.
Tilly is from a line of the Jeanneney breeding. She's a tough little bugger but very gentle with adults & kids. I'm very strict with her as a kennel dog...except she thinks the kennel is sleeping under the covers not just on the bed :D She will probably be going to Quebec Bear Quest this spring. Here she is at 3 months...Doc
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Tilly/Tilly3.jpg)
Tippit,
My Wife, Natalie frequently visits this site. At the moment, I PRAYING she doesn't see the picture of your dog Tilly. I can just hear her now, "Why can't we have a dog like Tilly?"
Neat dog!!!
Monty, notice I said most, not all and obviously present company is likely to be excluded. I would also bet for every Lab kept in the house their is a pointer or spaniel that is kenneled out back. Beagles and coonhounds would be even higher. Keep in mind I'm not saying what's right or wrong, it's just the way it is and it's a different mindset. BTW, my other dog is a yellow Lab. Here's another comical photo featuring Fred's favorite dog Gus. These two play and squabble all day, then get into a puppy pile like a couple of weanlings when it's time to hit the hay! They have never fought at all, but have some hilarious chases through the house and yard. (http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1100.jpg)
Here's the crew on a "Rocky Mountain High last June at the Peak of Monarch Pass. The above photo of Fred helping me drive was taken on this same trip. Gus looks a little less like El Diablo in this pic! CKruse
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1240.jpg)
CK,
I do not have the stats or even a reference to site, so I cannot debate your perception/assertion that "most" dogs are kept in kennels in the U.S. In my experience, however, the converse is true.
Nice pictures BTW. And, I "piddy da fool" who tries to take the rubber toy away from Kujo and mini-me Kujo.
Monty, thanks for the remarks, as you can see these two are family. Gus is a pup out of our old chocolate Lab Duke, who passed at age 14. I bought him as a pet for my wife, who at the time was a coon hunting widow! He became our first child, and Gus is different yet the same in many ways. He's kind of had to deal with not being the baby since Fred came along.
I don't think there would be a way to accurately research the kennel vs house for hunting dogs. Obviously most dogs would be pets kept in the house. As far as dogs used specifically for hunting, I'm basing that opinion on what I've seen most of my life. Your experience is different and I respect that. You have some beautiful Labradors, and it's clear you are passionate about them. Thats a very good thing in my book. CKruse
This is my first attempt at posting pics - hope it works. If it does, here are 2 pics of our Bavarian Mountain Hound,Jacob.
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/James-Bobbie/Jacob/Andy015.jpg)
(http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg6/James-Bobbie/Jacob/GarysDeer014.jpg)
JL,
Good looking dog. But how'd ya attach that TREE to that deer's head?
Monty:
That deer came with the tree attached to its head. I wish I could say it was mine but another hunter on our lease was the lucky one. Having my dog find it was ALMOST as good as shooting it myself....almost!
Doc and James, those are two good looking dogs! The Bavarian M.H. is gaining popularity fast in this country amongst blood tracking folks. There are several owners of these on the UBT site. CKruse
I origionally got our dox as a family dog and then read about all the thing they can do. Now I kind of wish I would have got one that has some hunting blood. This one is purly pet stock. But he shows signs of being able to do it. This is a pic (I hope this workds) of a deer I shot and saw fall. Went to the house and got Bullet and put him on the trail (first and only deer to date). Did great job. Has done a great job on the training trails I have put out also.
KCruse where did you get your hunting dox. I might be abel to talk the wife into a second dog, ha ha ha.
(http://www.kscrawford/WebContent/pictures/20071201%20Kerwin%20Archery%20Deer/file0217editv1.jpg)
I can't seem to get this picture thing to work.
If the dogs are trained to track blood, is it possible to use any type of blood for training. In other words can I use hog blood to lay down a practice trail or is there something specific about deers blood or the combination of deer blood and deer smell that should only be used for practice.
Bearhair - what I am reading in the book, they seem to do better with deer blood. They apparently do not react as good to cow blood. I do not have any experance with that but the book "Tracking dogs for finding wonded deer" recomends it. Based on that, I have collected bood in old butter tubs and milk jugs and put in frezzer with some hide and livers. This will alow me to thaw what I need all year long.
Kerwin, Fred came from Germany. I made a trip and was able to spend about a week with the breeder, learned some of their training methods, did some initial training with my (then) 9 week old puppy. I even got to tag along on a hunt. The breeders website is www.bismarck-eiche.de (http://www.bismarck-eiche.de)
You can type it into a Google search, then hit translate this page for a broken English translation.
I think deer blood is best, but I can tell you that Stefan (the German breeder) uses cow blood for a lot of his training. He feels that during the tracking tests his dogs have a little extra kick since the deer blood used in the tests have a stronger perceived game odor. His dogs all have the 20 and 40 hour European titles for blood trailing.
I have recently started using Fährtenschuh, which is a European scent shoe that uses the hoof of a deer or boar to lay the scent trail. The idea is to use less and less blood to where the tracking dog has only the interdigital scent to track off of. The use of these is covered in John's book.
If at times I come off as an elitist, thats not my intention. I'm very proud of my rather unique and rare (at least in this country) pup. If your pet dachshund or any other breed shows a propensity to track - go for it! This country needs a lot more dogs trained in this special skill. They are a great conservation tool, and can really help answer a lot of questions and provide peace of mind even in cases where the deer or other game is not recovered. CKruse
QuoteOriginally posted by ckruse:
Kerwin, Fred came from Germany. I made a trip and was able to spend about a week with the breeder, learned some of their training methods, did some initial training with my (then) 9 week old puppy. I even got to tag along on a hunt. The breeders website is www.bismarck-eiche.de (http://www.bismarck-eiche.de)
You can type it into a Google search, then hit translate this page for a broken English translation.
I think deer blood is best, but I can tell you that Stefan (the German breeder) uses cow blood for a lot of his training. He feels that during the tracking tests his dogs have a little extra kick since the deer blood used in the tests have a stronger perceived game odor. His dogs all have the 20 and 40 hour European titles for blood trailing.
I have recently started using Fährtenschuh, which is a European scent shoe that uses the hoof of a deer or boar to lay the scent trail. The idea is to use less and less blood to where the tracking dog has only the interdigital scent to track off of. The use of these is covered in John's book.
If at times I come off as an elitist, thats not my intention. I'm very proud of my rather unique and rare (at least in this country) pup. If your pet dachshund or any other breed shows a propensity to track - go for it! This country needs a lot more dogs trained in this special skill. They are a great conservation tool, and can really help answer a lot of questions and provide peace of mind even in cases where the deer or other game is not recovered. CKruse
Cameron you don't come off as an elitist to me...........
Rather an individual who has done his research on not only the breed but the sport of tracking with your dog. Tip of the hat to you for doing it.
Lot's of people have dogs or will purchase dogs and leave a lot of information on the table that will wind up costing them once the dog reaches a certain age and development. There is no one book to read on how to train and raise any dog.
One thing that is very apparent in whatever discipline you decide to utilize your dog in even if it is just a buddy around the house is the best dogs are usually with people who understand each and every dog is different. The best bird dog trainers with the most accomplishments in this country all share the same trait. They will understand what makes each dog they have tick. And will adjust training methods that fall in line with what works for each specific dog and their unique personalities. It is no coincidence the same guys are always at the top of the game.
They know how to read a dog. On another side-note the same can be said for Horses. I will personally handle thousands of horses a year in my profession. You better be able to make a sound judgment and decision very quickly on what your dealing with in regards to behavior or body language or your going to get hurt. I promise you.
If any of my comments were misconstrued in here they were not meant to be. And I have seen more dogs ruined by vocally aggressive owners with bird dogs than I ever have with a Training Collar being used in the hands of a Pro. Again a training collar in "Qualified Hands". Most stimulation with a collar is so slight (Nick) it would not even make you flinch if you were to test it out on your own hand. 90% of the work is done with praise tones or a warning tone depending on the situation.
Bottom-line is this has been an interesting thread and Cameron you have done your homework and I respect that for what it is worth.
Oh yeah your dog is pretty cool looking also!
Tim
Tim S.
I absolutely agree with your assessment of the value of e-collars being used by experience, "qualified" trainers. In the right hands, an e-collar can be a very useful, humane training tool. MOST ESPECIALLY when training for the precision/performance associated with hunt test dogs and field trial dogs. However, for the overwhelming majority of dog owners- sporting breeds or otherwise- and by overwhelming majority I'm talking about upwards of 98 percent of dog owners, an e-collar is not necessary.
Case in point, I'm just as average a Joe as Joes come, and if I can train a dog through praise, repetition, patience and the occasional, well-time "NO!"- then quite literally ANYONE can. My labs may not be able to perform as well as MANY of the top notch test dogs, but they are well socialized, extremely obedient and will HUNT - not just retrieve - ANYTHING I ask them to hunt.
Anyone - and I repeat ANYONE- who lacks the patience or basic training skills necessary to train a dog using verbal commands alone should not be encouraged to use a shock collar. If a dog owner does not understand the psychology behind the proper use of verbal commands, CLEARLY that same person does NOT posses the training skills or understand the training psychology necessary to properly use an e-collar. Said another way, anyone capable of ruining/damaging a dog using verbal commands would most assuredly cause more harm to a dog using a shock collar. For this reason, shock collars should be left to pros such as yourself (respect intended!)
QuoteOriginally posted by Labs4me:
Tim S.
I absolutely agree with your assessment of the value of e-collars being used by experience, "qualified" trainers. In the right hands, an e-collar can be a very useful, humane training tool. MOST ESPECIALLY when training for the precision/performance associated with hunt test dogs and field trial dogs. However, for the overwhelming majority of dog owners- sporting breeds or otherwise- and by overwhelming majority I'm talking about upwards of 98 percent of dog owners, an e-collar is not necessary.
Case in point, I'm just as average a Joe as Joes come, and if I can train a dog through praise, repetition, patience and the occasional, well-time "NO!"- then quite literally ANYONE can. My labs may not be able to perform as well as MANY of the top notch test dogs, but they are well socialized, extremely obedient and will HUNT - not just retrieve - ANYTHING I ask them to hunt.
Anyone - and I repeat ANYONE- who lacks the patience or basic training skills necessary to train a dog using verbal commands alone should not be encouraged to use a shock collar. If a dog owner does not understand the psychology behind the proper use of verbal commands, CLEARLY that same person does NOT posses the training skills or understand the training psychology necessary to properly use an e-collar. Said another way, anyone capable of ruining/damaging a dog using verbal commands would most assuredly cause more harm to a dog using a shock collar. For this reason, shock collars should be left to pros such as yourself (respect intended!)
I agree Monty respectfully..............
And you do have some nice looking dogs there. I am glad there are people on here who partake and enjoy canines of any breed or discipline. I think most of us on here share the same affliction for any dog that gets a job well done. Including climbing up on the couch and laying their head across our laps.
My dogs also live with me in the home.............................
I don't get a lot of time to check in frequently enough to be short and to the point, so I'll put a bunch of stuff on my mind here all at once. If you can read it all great, it not, skip right over, its only my opinions.
ck, I don't read into you being an elitist or anyone else posting here for that matter. I for one appreciate everyones input. There is always something to learn if you keep your eyes and ears working. I think overall this has been a very good thread, certainly helpful to anyone that doesn't have much experience with hunting dogs.
What amuses me here though seems to be endemic in our society these days where everything has to be a specialty, analyzed to the nth degree.
Here we have yet another thread inquiring about deer tracking dogs where some spirited debate surfaced a bit and further fueled with an infusion of this dog and that. When in reality the vast majority of the dogs in everyday households could be trained to track game. The issue has more to do with the quality of the training than the olfactory differences between the breeds.
Personally, I'm not a scholar of sorts on the subject, I don't read or haven't read volumes on the matter of tracking. My perspective comes from 20 some years growing up into hunting deer and hogs with dogs in the Florida Everglades and areas slightly north and west of the Everglades proper. In our circles most of the "training" consisted of starting young dogs with other experienced dogs and let them figure it out that way. I can honestly say I think I've probably met the guy that coined the phrase "that dog won't hunt". :)
Anyway, as I said in a previous post, my dog hunting and tracking experience is mostly with the "conventional" hound breeds. Even there, I'd have to say I was the one being trained. I don't dog hunt anymore, but in my time I've seen plenty of grade dogs and other cross-bred neighborhood mishaps so to speak that turned out to be very good hunting dogs. Yet the UKC, AKC or any other "official" dog organization would never recognize these animals. But in the field they out performed many of the pure-bred's. Not always mind you, but enough for even a southern redneck to take notice and realize there's more going on there than a UKC or AKC certificate would have you believe.
Consider the cur breeds, catahoulas, etc that are rapidily finding favor with traditional houndsman over the "conventional" breeds for their blend of site and scent capabilities coupled with obedience to command in the heat of battle. Here's a classic case of "mutt's" being formulated into top rate hunting dogs and have evolved to being a "breed" of their own.
I liken the gravitation to curs to why German/Belgian Shepards are used so much for police work, where the capability of the nose is less of factor and the ability to train the Shepard to NOT attack at the conclusion of a track is more important than his nose. No doubt they have to have very good noses, but I doubt a Shepard has a significantly better nose than any number of other working breeds. Their real virtue is their obedience for "official" service work and with multiple handlers in many cases.
That kind of thing is not so easily done with bluetick's, redbone's, black and tan's and so forth with a bayed animal and could spell death to catch dog if you're not there to dispatch the hog before he kills your dog. These "conventional" hunting dogs invariably have to be captured, leashed and hauled away from the prey to stop them from trying to eat it. Cur dogs on the other hand are more prone to respond to commands, which can be really handy at times.
Then I read where dachshunds are being espoused for baying hogs. (ck, I'm not singling you out personally, only highlighting my reaction to the statement). My dad had 2 dachshunds when I was very young, so I don't remember much about them. But I do have vivid memories from some hog hunts not so long ago where an 180lb boar flipped a 60lb walker 5 feet in the air like it was nothing and helping hold skin and body parts together while my buddy stitched up dogs enough to get them to the vet. Not every hog hunt goes that way, but ain't a one of them that can't happen. So when I think hogs and dogs those are the kinds of things that come to mind.
Needless to say I was bug eyed when I read that comment about dachshunds and baying hogs. Personally, I can't fathom what a 20-30lb anything could do to get a scrappy hog to stop and fight, let alone a dachshund. But being open minded I did a little research last night and saw where there are references to boar hunting with dachshunds several hundred years ago. Although they seem to infer a larger version of a dachshund than what is prevalent today, I have managed to learn something new, so thank you all for that. ;)
I also take a little exception to the sweeping "kennel" remark. There are heartless people that kennel animals like they were tools, but I haven't met very many in my time. So it seems to me for someone to make a statement like that they don't have much practical experience with big game hunting dogs.
If you are serious about it you will own at least 5-6 dogs at any given time. Several guys I knew had 15 or more. I guarantee you the missus was not gonna have 17 treeing walkers or black and tans scattered about the living room watching TV with the rest of the family no matter how much dad loved each and every one of them. :)
The kennel serves other purposes too. That is learning to be kept while waiting to be released and not fighting and/or other wise trying to kill each other to get out and hunt. They need to be taught very early on how to behave in tight quarters amongst other dogs. On any given hunt dogs are rotated for rest or to replace other dogs that have got off track and need to be caught without interrupting an otherwise active chase. Being put back in a kennel can't feel like punishment to them or you'd have to reprimand them every time you wanted them to "load-up".
Another reason for a "kennel" full of dogs is injury and death when hunting dangerous game like big cats, bear and hogs. It doesn't happen often but the potential exists for a dog to be seriously injured or killed on every hunt. Thats the main reason you hunt with at least 3 dogs on dangerous game so theres less chance that only one dog will have to confront a bayed animal. A pissed off hog, lion or bear can easily kill a single dog within minutes. No one likes it but its a cold reality with this form of big game hunting and you need to have multiple dogs in the hunt and back up dogs coming up through the ranks. Not many people can keep hunting dogs like this without kennels. Its not cruel as long as they're exercised and hunted often.
In closing, :) I will re-iterate my "most any breed" sentiment for tracking wounded game, especially deer. Start them young, train them patiently and with praise and you'll have yourself a fine tracking dog for all but the most intense efforts and even there a mutt may surprise you. If it doesn't work out you'll still have a fine companion. :) - eric
Cameron I aggree with Tim.
"Rather an individual who has done his research on not only the breed but the sport of tracking with your dog. Tip of the hat to you for doing it."
Personaly I wish I had the resources to go to Germany (or somewhere else) to do things like this.
If you think of it, most of us that are in Trad Archery you will see a lot of this type of thinking.
Oh, the picture of you at Monarc Pass. We go through there every year to Elk/MuleDeer hunt. Brings back memories.
Deerfly:
I concur with your, "Most any breed" sentiment and made an effort to drive this point home in a previous post. As far as using a "mutt"- ABSOLUTELY!!!
...Speaking of Mutts- I come from a long distinguised line of Mutts myself...
Labs4me...just a question i have ....are your labs "forced fetch"?
i worked at a setnet site and they had two elk hounds, kina look like a sled dog. both of them were pretty wussy, untill they caught the scent of a bear, they became the most ferocious things. one ran up behind a big brownie and bit him right on the butt, once both dogs got into it they circled and attacked untill the 9 footer tucked tail and left. another time we were hiking out off a mountain after dark, not the smartest choice, we heard dome comotion near us the dogs payed no attention. about a mile later the dogs both locked in right behind us and began to get angry, what ever it was circled us for a hour, the dogs were on it the whole time but never left our side. after we hit the beach and were about 100 yards from the trail exit a 8 foot young brownie stepped out, as soon as the dogs had a visual they were in full attack, the bear left in a hurry. with this behavior you would think the dogs time was limited but they have never had a bear so much as nick one in 40 years.
Since we are sharing pictures here.
Here is another one of my lap dogs.
I am not certain how well he would track? He does not like to go off my property. He has an awesome nose and his prey drive is as high as you can get.
He does a fine job of covering the acreage here and needless to say he keeps away unwanted visitors. Fearless is not a strong enough word.
He is a 105 lbs of bring it on :cool:
(http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z143/TimSchoenborn/Rock.jpg)
Joebuck:
As a newbie to the world of retrievers (this was over 14 years and about 18 trained dogs ago) I joined a local Hunting Retriever Club. This was back before the internet and "type" forums became commonplace. At the urging of the so called club "experts", I DID force fetch my very first Lab- simply because I didn't know any better. Since then I have trained, competed and hunted over two more Labs of my own, and either outright trained or helped to train over a dozen other retrievers (mostly Labs; several Goldens and a Chessie). I can tell you that in all honesty, there is virtually no difference between a dog that is force fetched and one that is taught to "Hold!" and "Fetch!" using positive reinforcement. The ONLY difference really, is that it WILL take a bit longer to achieve the same end result (Instead of a week or two, it may take up to a month depending on the attention span of the dog). Here's why: ALL animals - including the human variety - respond to PAIN or pain avoidance more quickly than they do to positive reinforcement (under most circumstances). However, animals- again, including the human variety- typically end up being more confident, trusting and willing to please when brought along using praise and repetition and other positive conditioning techniques.
As this is a traditional ARCHERY site, and in that I am probably boring 14,000 people to tears, please feel free to e-mail me for my phone number if your would like to discuss this topic in detail. The main point that I would like 98 percent of those contemplating buying a (tracking) dog to consider is that for most of US, virtually any dog can be turned into an awesome hunting companion by relying on the training "tools" of praise, repetition, and the WELL-TIMED use of the word "NO!"
Leave the shock collars to the pros.
Heres my big boy he has been trained on blood a little but I don't have the time to do a proper job of it. That being said he has that want to please attitude and will pretty much do what I ask of him. Quick story, my twin daughters lost one their turtles outside and were a little distraught. Taking a chance I let Dakota smell the other turtle still in the pen and in about 10 minute I was able to come walking in the door with the lost turtle. I'm also just using this thread to try and post my first pic. (//%5BIMG%5Dhttp://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg177/Joe-Mart/DSCF0959.jpg)[/IMG]
Joebuck:
Here's one of my Labs, Dakota, who was NOT force fetched? Does it look like he suffered for it?
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/northernmichigan/geese.jpg)
Next try (http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg177/Joe-Mart/DSCF0959.jpg)
Labs4me..good for you! I had a notion you weren't a fan of the "force" method because in your avatar your holding the bird instead of the dog holding the bird :) congrats on a wonderful loving pet you enjoy hunting with.
FIRST... JoeM that is one good looking Lab. Good Grief!!!
Joebuck. I'm holding THAT bird only because (being facetious) I think I only hit it with one pellet and it came down in exceptionally good condition. I knew when Huck (the adult Yellow on my wife's lap in one of the pictures above) delivered it to hand, that it was worthy of the wall. As I type, that pheasant is now on the wall behind me. Here's a picture of Huck being encouraged to "Fetch and Hold" when he was about six weeks old.
(http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj306/northernmichigan/PupRetrieving.jpg)
Thanks Monty,
Dakota will be 2 this January, he's my third lab and its a shame I own him he doesn't get to excel at what he was bred for. His name is Dakota because he came from a breeder in SD. I don't bird or small game hunt but I have friends that do and they always comment on how he naturally works side to side and how I can keep him close with voice commands(except when other dogs are around). I had nothin to do with it I just love sending him into bushes and stuff to put up rabbits, doves etc and watching him get so excited. But all in all he's a house pet who my 3 old twins adore and occasionally share sleeping quarters with.
JoeM
The black lab in the photo above is also named Dakota. We recently had to put him down and it was just a gut wrenching experience. He was my pride and joy and taught me more than I ever taught him.
Labs are by nature social dogs to the same degree that they are known for their retrieving/hunting abilities. As long as they are around people and get to retrieve an occassional ball- they are usually content and happy. FYI- I didn't start to train my Dakota until he was three years old (honest!). It started with sticks and balls in the backyard; progressed to bumpers in the park and then birds at group traing sessions. He went on to become an outstanding retriever and earned his UKC title at the age of SIX. Because he was a fireball, he was hard to keep up with when hunting- that is, he hunted for himself. From his perspective, if could keep up with him, great; if not, that was great too. In the truests sense of the word, he was a retriever.
Three year old twins and a two year old Lab eh? Sounds like you have REALLY been blessed in your life. I bet your kids are REALLY stoked about Santa this year. How Cool!!!
Happy Holidays to you and yours,
Labs
I posted this short clip back in the summer, but if you fellows with the retrievers missed it- here it is again. My little guy is a river otter! They actually have a water test for them in Europe. They have to bring a duck to the bank from the middle of a pond. In our case, it was a rubber chicken! Hope you get a kick out of this. http://s18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/?action=view¤t=100_1316.flv
I wish I had gotten a longer video that day. He was bringing it back and begging for more. He even swam all the way out to the swim dock you see in the distance. He did some dock-dog style runs off of it much to our amusement! CKruse
CK, enjoyed the clip. Thanks for sharing it.
I have a Neopolitam Mastiff that I think would be a great tracker. She weighs 140# and is one of the smartest dogs I have owned. She loves to solve puzzles (hide an object in an area that requires her to find it and figure out how to get it from that area), and like all good dogs she loves her family, especially me. Unfortunately, she gets car sick so I will never be able to test her deer tracking ability. Most of the large breed dogs are descended from Neos, so they should have a good nose too.