Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: bohunter107 on August 12, 2009, 03:54:00 PM
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I recently purchased an old Ben Pearson 979 bow refered to as the window bow, the first center shot recurve. From what I have ben able to find out, it was made around 1957. It was prior to Ben naming his bows or even putting his name on them. It's a two piece take down recurve 69 inches long in very good condition. Any information I can get would be appriciated. Thanks...Tim
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y'ain't related to ol' Ben, are ya, Tim? :readit: :saywhat:
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well we both have the same name and are from the same state so its possible but i cant say for sure.
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69" ? I will have to see what length mine is
What are you hoping for info wise?
I bought mine from Ckruse here I believe they became the Bushwacker
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Let me know what you find out......Tim
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Tim,
I have what I think is a Bushmaster (Window Bow became the Bushmaster in 1958) that apparently was refinished. There are no logos or labels of any kind on the bow. It has the length and draw weight, but no Cat #, stamped on the side of the handle-5'8" 50@28. It is a 2 piece, offset two color laminated handle (cream and black colored wood), and green fiberglass limbs. Only problem is I can't find a reference to a 68" Bushmaster. According to Archery Archives, Pearson offered a 66" and a 69". I'm wondering if when it was refinished, someone redid the writing/stamp and changed it from 66 or 69 to 68.
I also have a Pearson 950, a 60" 2 piece takedown recurve similar to the Bushmaster, that has the Cat #, Serial #, length, and draw weight, but, NOT offset in the handle. It has a Ben Pearson label on one limb, solid color handle, and green fiberglass limbs. It became the Cobra in 1958. Archery Archives says that the 950 and 954 were "just like the Bushmaster" in 1957 and says they had an "offset handle" in 1958, as the Cobra.
I would be interested in seeing any decals on your bow and seeing photos of them and the handle with the stamping/writing on it.
Phil
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OK
Here is my info
Yellow Belly/Green Back, No Decals
Cat. 954
Length 54"
Serial B-1959
Dual shelf, 2 piece
And oops meant Bushmaster not Bushwhacker
Mines a nice shooter
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Kurt,
Archery Archives, for '56 and '57, describes the 950 and 954 as a "Recurved take-down" and it's not listed as offset. Is yours a 54" or a 64"? In 1958, the same Cat#'s are given to the Cobra, and it is listed as offset. I've shot both my 950 and my Bushmaster and hope to hunt with them. I've also got a Safari that's 62# and shoots great.
I'd love to see pictures of yours and Tim's bows. I'll try to get photos of mine to you tonight.
Phil
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Here are my 2 Pearson mid-50's TDs. First the 950. RH/LH, recurve, no handle offset.
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02113.jpg)
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02116.jpg)
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02117.jpg)
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02115.jpg)
Here's the Bushmaster. RH, recurve, offset handle.
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02118.jpg)
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02122.jpg)
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02121.jpg)
(http://i509.photobucket.com/albums/s331/selfbow19953/PEARSON%20TDs/DSC02119.jpg)
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Originally posted by bohunter107:
I recently purchased an old Ben Pearson 979 bow refered to as the window bow, the first center shot recurve. From what I have ben able to find out, it was made around 1957...
Tim - Ben Pearson filed for a patent on this bow Aug 1, 1955 and on November 19, 1957 was granted a Patent for his "Method of Making a Demountable Bow".
I have just re-read the entire Patent including the Patent Claims and there is no mention of the bow being center shot. The Patent illustrations do not show anything regarding the bow being center shot. The patent is strictly related to the take down system of the bow.
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Wade,
Does the Patent mention the offset handle and the reasons/claims regarding it? Is this what people are referring to as "center shot"?
Phil
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Phil - There is nothing in the patent text that I can find that states the handle is offset.
The patent illustrations do not appear to depict an offset handle...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/BP.jpg)
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Did you notice the bow in Figure 1? It looks like statice tips with brush nocks. Did Pearson make any bows of this style?
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Phil,
Yes, I was going to mention the Grumley looking "Brush Nocks" in the Patent Illustration in my next post. I'm glad you picked up on that.
I'm not a Ben Pearson Bow collector, but have a few of his 1930s/1940s wooden bows. Admittedly, I am pretty ignorant about Pearson recurves...
Now for the next logical question...
Why the name Bushmaster ???
Does anyone have a Pre-Bushmaster with Brush Nocks?
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For what it's worth, (I have no Pearson catalogs and have never seen one) the descriptions and photos-1957 only-on Archery Archives don't show brush nocks on the Pearson take downs. I have 3 different models of BP TD's and have seen photos of a fourth model, none with brush nocks. The 950 above became the Cobra in 1958 (at least according to Archives) so I'm guessing mine is a '56 or '57.
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Tim - Just checked the site "Archery Archives", and see under the title "1957", the first sentence states "The center shot take-down came out".
I believe they are referring only to Ben Pearson products.
I don't see mention of the "first center shot recurve". Don't know if that specific topic has been discussed before or not. It would be interesting to record that, using the dates of documents from the era when such bows were produced.
Actually many Center Shot Takedown bows existed well before 1957. I have several dating back from the 1870s to the 1930s. However, they are not laminated recurves.
Phil - The earliest mention of an offset handle that you mention, which I can think of off hand was developed by Water Gaskell in 1949.
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Wade,
Do you think the offset handle was the reason for the center shot claim? Seems like a strange coincidence that 1957 is the year "the center shot take-down came out" AND it is the year the offset handle was first listed. That offset is strange looking and a bit disconcerting at first when you look across a "crooked riser", but doesn't seem to negatively effect shooting.
Oh yeah, Wade. I finally came across what appears to be a homemade broadhead that I found in my grandfather's stuff. I'll try to get photos to you tonight.
Phil
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Phil - Yes, Walter Gaskell's 1949 offset handle was in fact designed to make the bow Center Shot. This is clearly visible in the illustrations from his 1949 Patent Application...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/CENTSHOT.jpg)
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According to Roy Hoff's book "Roy Hoff tells it like it is" The first center shot bow was attributed to Bill Folberth , he says that Bill designed and patented the first center shot bow.
He also seems to have invented the windshield wiper.
I cant tell you for sure , just thought I would pass on that bit as I read yesterday in the book.
I do know that FW Peters ( Salem OR bowyer) had an early center shot bow called the whitbow that was a metal riser you shot through the middle with changeable wood limbs, who was first for the center shot?
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Thanks, Wade. That is very interesting. I wonder how much difference there was in the angle used on the 2 bows? Apparently, Ol' Ben figured out how to accomplish the offset without brackets. Makes one wonder, me anyway, how much he "borrowed" from Mr. Gaskell. If he didn't used the bracket, that wouldn't be copyright infringement, I guess.
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Ted - Thank you so much for your reference to the book "Roy Hoff Tells It Like It Is".
Roy Hoff was a great man and knowing Roy would want me to tell it like it is,... here goes...
While apparently Folberth’s patent was the earliest center shot that Roy was aware of…
Numerous center shot bows were patented long before Bill Folberth was awarded his 1933 bow patent, the first of several bow patents that were granted to Folberth.
Center shot bows were patented well before Roy Hoff was born in 1903…
I have one of Folberth’s 1933 center shot bows and the associated patent.
While Folberth’s 1933 bow patent is center shot, it has only a rest at the bottom, no adjustment at the side.
Other earlier center shot bows patented from 1879 to 1931, have various setups for rest, angled support, side adjustment.
Later today, I will try to post some of these center shot bows that precede Folberths’ 1933 patent.
By the way…
Bill Folberth did not invent the windshield wiper. Manual windshield wipers existed years before Folberth invented his version of Automated windshield wiper.
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Phil – I have no idea how much difference there was in the angle used on the 2 bows? I don’t own a Gaskell bow nor one of the offset handle Ben Pearson T/Ds. If you send me yours, I will be half way there to owning both. Just joking, I have way too many bows already and should be offering to send you some.
In 1790, our founding fathers established The United States Patent Office by the authority granted in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8 of the United States Constitution.
They were farsighted enough to realize that granting inventors exclusive rights to their inventions for limited times, would promote interest and encourage others to later expand on previous ideas.
I would guess most of the larger archery manufactures kept up with the latest patents that were granted in their industry and looked for ways to improve or change the products.
The fact that Ben Pearson may have “borrowed” a previous idea probably means that Pearson either paid royalties to Gaskell or that Gaskell’s patent was NOT written “tight” enough to prevent Pearson from making his offset handle. It is also possible that Gaskell found out about Pearson’s offset handle, asked for royalties, and Pearson stopped production. Lots of this sort of thing went on in the archery industry.
Being a US Patent holder (in the field of fiber optics, not bows or archery), and having a 34-year career with a company that held thousands of patents, it is probably not surprising why I hold a special interest in patents. Reading patents is much like taking a sleeping pill for many bowmen, but to a few, patents are interesting and provide a unique insight into the history of some archery equipment.
The patent system is one of many things that made our country so great for so many years.
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Ted - This is being posted not to discredit Roy Hoff's statement you cite above, but simply an attempt to accurately recount historical facts.
This link has a brief history of the windshield wiper. It includes details of wipers that preceded Folberth's and the type that replaced his remarkable invention.
http://www.ohiohistorycentral.org/entry.php?rec=2747
What the link does not state, is that after Folberth sold his automated windshield wiper company in 1925, during the following two decades, he developed some of archery's most significant advancements in bow design that were made up to that point (and beyond for several years).
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Originally posted by Ted Fry:
I do know that FW Peters ( Salem OR bowyer) had an early center shot bow called the whitbow that was a metal riser you shot through the middle with changeable wood limbs, who was first for the center shot?
Ted - Do you know the specific date(s) of manufacture of the FW Peters T/D that you mentioned?
Also regarding your question... "who was first for the center shot?" - Who was first would depend on the criteria used to define the bow.
If we use your criteria - metal riser - shoot through the middle - changeable wood limbs… here are two that precede Folberth’s 1933 patent...
As I mentioned earlier, there are many center shot bows that precede Folberth's 1933 patent, and at least one that precedes the 1879 Wright & Thorne, but these are two of the most creditable of their respective periods.
Colin J. Cameron – Patent Granted in 1932… - Adjustable angled rest, adjustable side plate, adjustable center shot sight.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/P-1.jpg)
Wright & Thorne - Patent Granted in 1879… Fixed Rests.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/P-2.jpg)
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For comparison to the above 1879 & 1932 Patent Illustrations...
Ted - This is Fig 2 & Fig 3 of Folberth's patent that gave cause for Roy Hoff to make the statement that you referenced in the first paragraph of your post on August 14, 2009 12:25 PM .
William Folberth - Patent Granted Sept. 12, 1933...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/P-3.jpg)
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No worries Wade , just sharing of ideas and knowledge. The envelope with the FW Peters advertisement I have is 1932 on the postmark so I am sure its in that area of time as well .
I dont have a scanner or I would post the page.
The Whitbo is very similar to the one by Cameron and very close to the Wright and Thorne, there must be slight difference in all of them to not have patent infringement issues.
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Ted - It was great that you brought up Roy Hoff's book, Folberth and the windshield wiper. It sparked a lot of other information to surface.
For my part, I'm just trying to accurately record historical facts.
The only proper way to record historical facts is to go to, and cite, the original source documents or photographs from the era when those events took place.
I'm certain the 1879 Wright & Thorne Patent expired well before Cameron or JW Peters began working on their Takedowns.
I know I have seen FW Peters hand printed name on some artifact or document. It is neatly printed and slightly italicized. Just can not place where I have seen it. Now you know how bad my memory really is, that is the best reason to go to the original documents from the era when the events occurred.
Does your FW Peters look anything like this TD? It has a D cross section, which is not visible in my very poor photograph.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/22.jpg)
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Wade here is a picture of the paperwork for the ad that FW Peters was working on, I had to take a picture rather than scan. This was in a large envelope with promo photos as well, dated 1932 (http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x295/photos4work/SANY0187.jpg)
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Here are the photos, notice the bottom right, this is a postcard of Grover Gouthier and Chet Stevenson that reads on the back " to FW Peters from Grover Gouthier and my pal Chet Stevenson of Eugene Ore.
The photo to the left of that is FW Peters with the handle of a Whitbo, sorry for the flash glare.The rest are other people ( unidentified ) shooting his bows. What I would give to have all the arrows leaning up against the garage door in the top photo
(http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x295/photos4work/SANY0188.jpg)