Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: twigflicker on July 16, 2009, 08:50:00 AM
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In another post, I asked about a factory bushing on the riser of a 65 Kodiak I have... the consensus was that it was factory...
My other question is... did they make a 4 arrow leather top with a spring arm on top and the bottom that fit the bushing in the riser... or are they all just double spring arms...
Sorry for the newbie questions...
I just like the looks of the brown leather tops better...
Jonathan
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I don't think so.
The leather tops were early model quivers that were discontinued long before the converta systems were introduced. The converta systyems is part of what the bushing was used for.
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Jonathan, I like the leathertops as well. Unfortunately, there was no quiver like you describe offered in Bear catalogs.
Several people have modified the leathertop spring arm quiver by cutting off the lower spring arm and adding the lower bracket from a leathertop bolt-on.
If you choose to make this modification, make sure the upper arm is not attached on the working part of the limb.
Trap
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Thanks for passing along the knowledge...
Jonathan
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Jonathan,
Actually Fred's original leather cap spring arm quiver was exactly as you describe, leather cap, top spring arm, with bottom bolt on bracket.
Apparently, it was never marketed as I've never seen nor heard of any advertisement for it.
However, I do have Fred's own words from a letter which authenticates the existence of this quiver before the development of the dual spring arm leather cap quivers that we know today.
I was also very fortunate to acquire one of these rare original Single Spring Arm Leather Cap Quivers, but have never used it.
Although I have never seen another original, nor heard of another one in a collection, from Fred's letter, I do know that Fred had several of them in his possession at the time of his letter.
A number of years ago, for my personal use, I modified a spring arm and added a lower screw on bracket as Trap describes.
You can see it on the 2003 photograph on the 1960 Kodiak that is shown on my profile.
Mine is not identical to Fred's original. I made it before knowing of Fred's original Single Spring Arm Leather Cap or Fred's letter.
Necessity is the mother of invention, and the contentious re-invention.
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I have seen pics of the old leather top, with upper and lower spring arms, but none with the upper spring arm and lower bolt arm. However, Bear was always the contrarian, and stuff did not always appear in their catalogs. I am not surprised to find that Wade has one, and confirmed their existence.
I have not seen one in copies of old Bear Facts, Bear Tales, and Bear Big Sky newsletters from Bear Archery and in different books about Fred Bear.
However, I believe one of the earliest models produce and marketed had a solid back and lower arm, and first appeared in 1944. Later models with an double spring arm and "L" shaped upper and lower brackets (tape on model) were available in the mid-1950's.
Sometime around 1950 the popular leather top began to appear with the lower arm and wire frame. Double spring arms and "L" brackets followed. Several tape on models can be seen in Glenn St. Charles' book, "Bows on the Little Delta" (page 149 and 181).
Fred Bear tested equipment sometimes for several years before making it available to the public. I think the double spring arm on the 4-arrow quiver, was offered for a short run prior to the 8-arrow which appeared with a double spring arm, before the lower bolt arm model. Fred used the double spring arm 8-arrow quiver in 1960, and used his T/D in Africa in 1965. Both were offered several years later.
I believe this maybe why we do not see the model you ask about. Fred used the 4-arrow with the lower arm thru 1959.
I think it would be interesting to see pictures of the different models, and dates they were available.
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Thanks guys...
Leave it to me to want what only Fred was known to have... thanks for the heads up Wade...
Your picture from 2003 is exactly what I was dreaming of... I thought it would look mighty cool on that '65 Kodiak... I just like the brown quivers better...
I may just have to scrounge some parts... I have a friend that may have what I need... if I can beg it off him...
Jonathan
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Jonathan -
At one time there were several of these quivers so it is entirely possible for someone to turn up another or even a number of them.
In Fred's letter that I mentioned earlier, he states that he is sending some of these quivers to the person who the letter is addressed to.
Fred used a Scabbard as early as 1944 which is well documented. Fred encountered a patent dispute with the bow quiver and was able to prove that his invention had preceded the disputing party's, and Fred was granted the patent. Fred is shown in some film footage describing some of the details of this dispute. To my knowledge this particular footage was never released by Bear. I have watched it several times. Lots of really interesting footage of Fred that was never put on the series of VHS and CDs that Bear sells. But then all of footage of Fred that has been relased, is also very interesting footage.
Barry - Your statement...
"Sometime around 1950 the popular leather top began to appear with the lower arm and wire frame."
Actually Bear's 1940s scabbard bow quivers had a wire frame too, that is what held the leather in place. If you remove the leather from the scabbard bow quiver, the wire frame and lower bracket are nearly dead ringers for the screw in leather cap bow quiver wire frame and lower bracket.
In 1955 when Fred sent a letter to his friends with samples of the experimental Razorhead, in the last paragraph Fred actually recommended that if a bow quiver was used, that the leather covering (on the scabbard quiver) should be removed and discarded. I've seen two of the surviving original letters that Fred sent to his friends with the experimental Razorheads.
Not sure of the exact date of the earliest document that mentions the 4-Arrow Leather Cap. I simply have it recorded as 1955 with no reference document cited. I'll have to research that over the next few days.
I believe the wire frame Bear bow quivers that appear in photographs taken prior to 1955 are actually 3-Arrow Scabbard quivers with the leather removed from the wire frame.
If you look closely at those pre-1955 photographs I believe you will notice there is no aluminum cowl that holds the leather in place. They are really just the 3-arrow scabbard bow quivers with no leather covering the wire frame.
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Wade, I can't get enough of the info / wisdom you have about all things Bear! Thanks for sharing. I appreciate it. Learing more every day thanks to you and others here. John
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The leather top quiver ran until 1971. In 1972 Bear introduced a 4 arrow plastic hood,upper spring arm, lower bolt bracket. This was designed for the TDs.
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Ron - Yes, 1971 was the last year for the leather cap quiver.
1971 was also the last year for any of Bear's Leather Hunting Quivers....
"Broadheads 1871-1971"
1971 was about the last year for a lot cool old archery stuff...
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Here is a scabbard quiver that's been cutout and its on one of Bob Meekers bows......Hink..
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN2667.jpg) (http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN2668.jpg)
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Hink -
Cool photograph. That lower bracket between the wires looks like Swiss cheese. What was going on there?
Have never seen a bracket with to many holes.
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Wade... not sure why all the holes unless they line up on different arrow holders(metal bracket holding the rubber)......Hink... :archer:
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Wade- I'd love to see a detailed pic of either the leather top that you modified or the one you have boxed up. I have some leathertop spring arms and tape ons and could probably cobble one together. I use a short-arm leathertop on a Saxon Kadiak and it works okay but the two arms are slightly long and the fit isn't as snug as I'd like. I believe Chuck Dougherty has one of these as well....I love it here, between the members of this crowd a guy can learn about anything; even an old buzzard like me...Grant
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Grant - Yes, after seeing mine, Chuck Dougherty liked the idea so I gave him some parts, and made a single spring arm leather cap too. I believe he made a couple. I made both a long and short arm.
Easy to make if you have the original quivers to work with. Start with a double spring arm leather cap...
1 - Cut off the lower spring arm
2 - Remove the 3 screws on the arrow gripper bracket and toss it in your box of quiver parts
3 - Replace that with screw on bracket from the normal 4-Arrow screw on quiver
4 - Good idea to use a new 4-Arrow gripper while the quiver is apart
I also cut a slot to the screw hole and ground off the two spikes so the lower bracket can easily slide on without removing the screw from the bushing. I carry an extra screw in case one gets away from me in the dark... A screw with a wing nut head is easier to remove, but not a standard Bear product.
This underbelly side shows you everything that was done including the ground off spikes. This one has had some use, it was like new when I made it. Lots of other ways to do something similar.
In reality, what you have is the leather cap version of the 4-Arrow green quiver that many of us have used on the first year Bear Takedown risers.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/0QUIV.jpg)
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Forgot to mention, some guys are using the tape on Bear Quiver and using heavy rubber to hold the quiver.
You could do the same as above but for the lower bracket, use a tape on lower bracket and use rubber to hold it in place.
I think Trap wraps a long rubber piece around the tape on bracket and Brunges uses a several heavy rubber coils and rolls them back to remove the quiver.
Hopefully these other guys will post photos of the methods they have come up with that work well for them. Actually I like the rubber idea, just never tried it. The rubber sure beats tape...
I believe any of these methods could be tweaked to be an improvement on the standard double spring arm looseness that always seems to eventually creep up when using that quiver.
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I'am with you guy's on that one I got no idea eather.Maybe to lighten the weight of the quiver a bit ? lol.He might have had some other gripper on it once ? I don't know but I do know this thats about one of the coolest bow and quiver set ups I've seen in a while thank you Bill for the pic.I just love that set up right there.Skinned out Bear bow quiver and a compass.....lets go hunting.Thanks again Bill thats cool bd
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Doc -
After the production Razorhead was introduced in 1956, the old scabbard quivers did not have enough clearance to accommodate the 1-1/8" width both ways when the insert was used...
The insert pushed into the leather scabbard, so as you say, the scabbard was skinned to accommodate the Razorhead Insert width. Fred even recommended removing the leather in his letter he sent in 1955 with the experimental Razorheads (Pinned Bears)...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/0S.jpg)
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Thanks Wade. I had been meaning to figure out my options with that set-up. I've seen some of the modified tape on quivers and for that bow (Saxon) that would be a good option as well. I love the leather tops and use a long arm on a Super Kodiak when I'm deer hunting locally and don't feel like I need as many arrows. I should be like Bowdoc- he occasionally goes bear hunting with one arrow, LOL. Grant
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yes I've seen several that were cut from the bleeder blades being forced in.Those are great bow quivers.bd
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Wade, thanks for the information.
Hink, great picture. The bow looks like an older static recurve? Is it glass & wood and is the compass original? Can you tell me is the diameter of the compass, is it in an aluminum, brass or other base?
Thanks again, for the pics of the old scabbard quiver. The hood looks to be all leather, and much flatter without the foam insert. Did the broadheads fit loosely, or was there something to hold them in place?
Wade, smile when you say Swiss Cheese. Actually the condition looks pretty darn good considering it may have been made about 1944. (WWII products where scarce.)
Makes me want to start going to more garage and estate sales...
I would like to see more pics of the older bow quivers, does anyone have a collection and feel like starting a thread?
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Hud - Just check past threads, there are thousands of items posted from collections all over the world.
Just do a search for what every you want to see...
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The Bear leathertops are very functional as they are but a few modifications make them even better.
Here's some modifications to a tape on.
I used parts from Great Northern to make the quiver an easy on/easy off quiver.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/08huntinggear002.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/tapeonwithstraps018.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/tapeonwithstraps015.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/tapeonwithstraps014.jpg)
I further modified this quiver by making it adjustable in length. Once again I used Great Northern parts. The added length really settles the arrows down and keeps them from flopping around when the bow is shot
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/4-arrowextension001.jpg)
I've also attempted to add a Spring arm to the top of my 4 arrows but have bnever been satisfied with the arrow angle. I think Wade's method would work better.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/59K006.jpg)
Wade, since you've already been through the learning curve, which spring arm (short or long) works best on 60 inch 59 and 60 Kodiaks?
I prefer the bolt on/springarm combo and would gladly trade a tape on 4 arrow leathertop (modified or unmodified) for a spring arm if anyone is interested.
Trap
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Trap - Now just because I have modified the long and short arm quivers, sure doesn't mean that I have experienced a learning curve. :scared:
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.....Hink...
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN2672.jpg) :archer:
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Hink - That is exactly the insert problem that Fred solved by ripping the skin off that scabbard wire frame. Nice Photograph !!!
Trap - I believe this is what you want to compare... The long and the short of it...
1959 Kodiak on left with short upper spring arm & lower screw in bracket.
10.0" from center of screw hole to top edge of horizontal on back of upper limb.
3.0" from shelf to center of screw hole.
1960 Kodiak on right with long upper spring arm & lower screw in bracket.
12.0" from center of screw hole to top edge of horizontal on back of upper limb.
3.4" from shelf to center of screw hole.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59-60.jpg)
Screw hole on 1960 Kodiak is .4" lower from shelf.
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Thanks for the pics Wade. You arent worried about that upper spring arm being so far out on the fade out?
I like the way the short arm fits on the 59 more I think.
Trap
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Trap - I'm too old to be worried about these bows, I just shoot them.
I agree, I like the way the short arm fits on the 59 more.
Actaully the 60 fade out is a little longer than the 59. If you look in a mirror at the 60 with the long spring arm on it, and draw the bow as you are watching it in the mirror, the limb doesn't flex where the arm is, it is flexing up further.
However, on the 1959, because the screw is .4" higher, and the fadeouts are shorter, if the long spring arm is used, the spring arm is too far up on the limb.
If I were choosing one quiver to use on both the 60" 59 and 60, it would be the like the one on the 59.
I suppose I should just throw that long spring arm in the trash tomorrow and make up another short arm...
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If you're too old to worry about them, send a few of them to me and let me fret over them a while :biglaugh:
If you're like me, you won't likely throw anything like that away. My wife would vouch for that. She's amazed sometimes when she looks around in my shop. My pat answer is "just put it back in there, I'll use it someday"
Trap
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I have almost as many quiver parts as strings, volume wise not number wise. I found that string tub the other day and will post a photograph of some of my strings. You will get a charge out it.
I just looked at your adjustable spring arm set up with the lower screw on bracket. I believe if you bend that adjustable spring arm bracket at similar angles to my short arm, you may find that it will work just fine.
Meant to ask you when you posted the photograph...
What do you have in the bow for a coin? An Indian Head Penny?
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Yeah that's an 1859 indian head penny. I believe 1859 was the first year.
I may need to do some more bending, but I dont believe it's long enough to get me there. I could easily bend it enough that it could be braized on a bolt-on though.
Trap
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Trap -
Was thinking you could just remove the spring arm bracket, and bend it to the shape of my short arm and just braze it to the wire frame of the quiver. And grind off the two little brazed on threaded pieces.
Is that what you have in mind? If so I believe it will work. If not, we'll find you a discarded arm that will work.
Why an Indian Head Penny?
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It's a Holcomb and I thought it needed a coin at the time. I also added a quiver bushing and reshaped the grip.
It's what I had before I owned an original 59. I still have it, but it doesnt get shot much anymore.
Yeah, that's the modification I was referring too. I think that will work.
Trap
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Thought that penny looked a little low on the riser to be legitimate.
Yes, I think bending that bracket and brazing it will work great.
If you need any additional photographs or measurements let me know.
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There is some interesting "facts" about the legend and equipment on this website. You may have seen it already. But did you know it has a history on the bow quiver?
http://www.fredbear-online.com/
Once you are there go to Frank's website, Or go directly to:
http://frankscott.fredbear-online.com/
Near the bottom of Frank's website, click on The Reinvention of Archery. #4 covers a history of the bow quiver. In summary, Fred first used a bow quiver in 1933. The leather back or first BQ was introduced in 1947. Earlier I said, Fred appeared in a picture taken in 1944 with this quiver and the 4-Arrow, or leather top was introduced in the 1950's; 1956 to be exact. There is much speculation about when things were introduced, but I think this lays it out nicely...although we know Fred used it much earlier. Did he have fun testing equipment, didn't he?
THERE ARE PICTURES OF THE DIFFERENT MODELS OF BEAR BOW QUIVERS, AND DATES FOR YOU TO PONDER.
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Jack Millet pointed out the earlier model converta system. It can be seen at the same website http://www.fredbear-online.com/
I think the one you are talking about may be on the Frank Scott website, under The Reinvention of Archery, #5 for the converta point system.
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Hud - Regarding Jack's post of July 16, 2009 04:54 PM...
I believe that Jack was referring to the stabilizer insert bushing in the back of the bow rather then the replaceable arrow points, when he said...
"The leather tops were early model quivers that were discontinued long before the converta systems were introduced. The converta systyems is part of what the bushing was used for."
Do you agree?
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Your right, I should have looked at the post before speaking. I have seen the converta system, and think I still have one but not the bow it was used with.
Does the information on the website, about the evolution of the bow quiver, coincide with your records? It seems like Fred Bear had a few products that were put out for test driving, but were never released. The other thing is that people may have modified some of the products, like what is being discussed, and they never came from the factory. Fifty years from now, they'll still be trying to figure out whether it was factory or not.
The leather top has always been a favorite, and nice ones are hard to come find.
Thanks for your help.
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Hud – Hopefully we will have documented all of our quiver modifications so 50 years from now, any person capable of researching the then probably obsolete Internet, will be able to figure out how we spent our time modifying all of the quivers they can not find in original unaltered condition.
Do plan to devote a chapter to altered quivers, in a book about Fred Bear’s Hunting Quivers that hopefully will get finished up before I check out.
Yes, Frank Scott's "The Bow Quiver" article is nicely laid out and nicely written, but it is brief summary of Bear’s bow quivers and is not complete.
Collectors have discovered many other different models of Bear's Production model Scabbard and Leather Cap quivers in addition to the four shown in Frank's article. Plus many documents from the era exist that verify the legitimacy of additional quivers.
There is no “speculation about when things were introduced” if the actual original documents from the era are cited. Specifying the exact year, month, day, title, and page number of original documents is the only way to establish verifiable historically accurate dates for each item.
If you note the only original reference document cited in the article is Fred’s Bow Quiver Patent, which is in the bottom half of the article and provides accurate dates for when the application was filed and when the patent was granted.
During the 1990s, I was very fortunate to have spent several days at the Bear Museum and even more fortunate to have spent many hours with Frank Scott talking about old time archery as well as discussing and handling items in the museum. There was no finer man than Frank, he was truly a wonderful person.
Keep in mind that Frank was an archery historian from the standpoint that he experienced living through the old days at Bear Archery and talked about his experiences as he remembered them. Frank was much different than those who are 20 years or more his junior, and must research the documents of the era for answers. Oftentimes, Frank told me things I’d never heard from others or read, and likewise many times I told him specific dates, events, products or models that he was not aware of. I asked Frank hundreds of questions, many he could answer, others remain unanswered to this day. There is still lots to learn for all of us…
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It sounds like he was not only good friend by a very knowledgeable person. Obviously, you are aware models we have never seen or heard about. It is great that someone with your interest and knowledge would write a book covering the subject. That will be important to those that follow us and allow them the benefit of your knowledge. Think how different it would be, if we did not have the books and printed records left by others. Obviously you have spent a great deal of time researching the subject and it should be an interesting book. Thanks for keeping us informed.
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Say one would want to modify a armed 4 arrow quiver and add a screw on bracket for a 1960 Grizzly. Should this person get himself a long arm or a short arm quiver? And, how would this mysterious person find a screw on bracket? Never seen one on the E-Pay.
Signed Simon D. No, make that S. Dupuis
Thanks
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Simon - Either a short or long arm would probably work. Here is a short arm on a 60" 1959 Kodiak with a 62" 1959 Grizzly set beside for comparison. You can see the shelf of each bow is on the same plane... so the short spring arm with fit more into the meat of the riser on the Griz, probably just right above the corner of the sight window as the Griz has a much longer sight window. The long arm will just fit two inches higher on the limb.
You can always take one of the screw ins and just add a bracket to the top.
Nearly every month some of the leather cap spring arms and screw ins show up on E-Pay.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/0Q.jpg)
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Thanks a lot Wade for the excellent pic.
I have the opportunity to get a spring arm 4 arrow quiver either long or short arm. I have seen the bolt on type on that auction site several times and they go for top dollar. It would kind of feel wrong to me to cannibalize a good quiver like those auctioned.
Trying to be thrifty :(
If anybody has a screw on bracket collecting dust, I would put it to good use.
Might just wait and find a screw on and pass on the spring arm opportunity..
Thanks again
Simon
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This is a short arm 230361228182
More than a bit pricey. I would not recommend impaling yourself on the Buy It Now option.
Be patient, more will be listed...
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And I would not recommend doing business with that seller either.
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Here's another innovative way to attach a Leathtop 4 Arrow quiver to a fine Bear Recurve :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/tapeonwithscrews.jpg)
Clever way to keep from losing a valuable Copper Coin I suppose.
Trap
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Ouch!
Look at the positive side, you won't have to worry about a snap on bracket for that quiver!
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Originally posted by Novaln1975:
And I would not recommend doing business with that seller either.
X2 Yes Simon I agree...
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Not to worry. I rebuilt one I had here that was in pretty bad shape. The lower bracket came off of a green 4 arrow quiver with a crushed hood.
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/Kodi012.jpg)
Trap
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Trap - Nice job of putting that quiver together. I never thought of recommending using an greenie quiver parts, but they would certainly work with a little paint as you have shown.