Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Wade Phillips on April 02, 2009, 12:17:00 AM
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Trivia questions on the first day after April Fool's Day...
Besides Fred Bear, who can you identify in this photograph???
What artifacts in this photograph are significant?
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/FRED.jpg)
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floyed eccleston is the one to the left of fred is he not wade ??.. The other I have not seen before
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Cody - Correct. That did not take you long...
Floyd Eccleston is at the far left of the photograph. Floyd and Fred were friends since they met in 1940. Floyd claimed to be Fred's oldest dealer in Michigan.
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Wade I am thinkin if I know the other two in the pic are they also from Michigan ?
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They are all deceased. That is my only clue.
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Wade are some of them significant artifacts the pics on the back wall over by the black bear rug as maybe u own them now ? I realy cant see from the pic....
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I'll play, a few of the artifacts would be Fred's Bowlo tie, and how about that 59 Kodiak and the arrow hanging above the Black Bear. Fred's first Bear and the weaponry used maybe?
Trap
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I believe that's long-time friend and hunting partner Bob Munger on Fred's far left. I'm guessing that would be Mrs. Eccleston sitting between them, as I don't recall ever reading of or seeing Mrs. Munger traveling with them.
>>--Ron--<>
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Ron....I agree, I think that's Bob Munger. Don't
know about the lady....
I have no idea about the artifacts.....
Tom I.
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Wow Wade, I haven't been there in many years, but that looks like the Chippewa Archery Shop, Mr. Eccleston's museum in Mount Pleasant. Do I get trivia points for location? :D
And here's a bit of trivia from that photograph that may even qualify for 'significant artifacts': As I recall, all those clocks on the wall are Floyd's trademark Sh---y Clocks.
He would collect deer droppings for the clock face numbers, so yes, all the number markings on those clock faces are genuine recycled Michigan vegetation!
And thanks for the pic Wade, you may have the big guy's bow, but you just jarred my memory that I used to sit in Fred's chair in Floyd's shop! (until I can own an actual Fred Bear arrow or bow or something, that may be my closest connection - I gotta do better than that!)
Is that Floyd's bear from the photo in JavelinHink's display? My memory is really bad! I do think though, that right through that doorway was Floyd's arrowmaking room, wow what a place. And to the left, the dark room behind glass was the range and Floyd's tremendous broadhead collection.
I spent a few weeks off and on with Mr. and Mrs. E photographing for a full page photostory in The Saginaw News. I keep meaning to dig up that news clip and post it on here for you guys. Thanks for the post Wade, I'll move that up my priority list.
Bernie
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Trap - Yes, Fred's Bowlo Tie, is a very significant artifact in the photograph. Yes, the 1959 Kodiak above the black bear was Floyd's favorite personal bow. It is the 56" with the compass in the grip that you have seen in photographs posted on this forum.
Ron & Tom - I'm proud of you guys for recognizing Bob Munger. Many of those who know about Fred can't pick out Bob Munger.
Ron - Yes that is Joney Eccleston sitting between Fred and Bob. She was a real sweetheart and knew more about a lot of the old archery tackle than many of us probably every can hope to learn in our lifetimes. Joney was known as the First Lady of Collectors
Bernie - You have been there, done that, seen it, and have the T-Shirt. You get 100 extra trivia points for your post.
Yes this photograph was taken in the famous Chippewa Archery Shop, home of the Great Lakes Archery Museum in Mount Pleasant, Michigan.
Yes the clocks on the wall are Floyd's trademark Sh---y Clocks. His inscription on back of mine says “Deer Me, Time Keeps Dropping By” signed “Floyd Eccleston”. The numbers are deer droppings that he picked up. Never thought of it before but you’re correct, Floyd was also one of the early practitioners of recycling in Michigan!
Fred's Chair in Floyd's shop! Wasn’t sure anyone would pick out Fred’s Chair. Those who sat in it, know the feeling you describe, and will never forget it.
Your memory of the layout of the shop is perfect.
I’m certain everyone would love to see your full page photostory from The Saginaw News. Hopefully it gets moved up high enough on your priority list for us to enjoy soon. Thanks so much for your post Bernie.
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Boy does that picture bring back old memories.If memory serves me in the cabinet at the very front of the picture were 50 or 60 archery movies.On a good day Floyd would sit & talk all day long.& If he got a customer he would offer his movies as intertainment.After Floyd passed Rich let me take a bunch of those movies home & tape them.I regret not knowing about Freds chair.How long has the chair been there.His wife was a sweetheart.I miss them both....
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Rick - I'm sorry to report that I don't know the year that Fred's Chair arrived at the Chippewa Archery Shop. It certainlly had to be long before Fred passed away in 1988. I will have to investigate the origin of Fred's Chair.
Yes, Floyd had quite a library of movies. With the thousands of items in the display area, it was impossible to see or remember everything. From 1982 to 2008 I made over a dozen trips up there and I'm certain I spent a total of over 30 days at the shop, and everyday that I was there I discovered something I'd never seen before.
The memories are great!
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Cool stuff guys. This is why I hang out here instead of the pow-wow. Everyday is a learning experiance.
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Originally posted by Bob Dunn:
Cool stuff guys. This is why I hang out here instead of the pow-wow. Everyday is a learning experiance.
Couldn't agree more, it's amazing the memories,and history that come from one photograph. Thanks for sharing
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My daughter went to school at Central Mi.& while visiting her my wife & daughter would go shopping & I would hit Floyds place.I'll never forget one day I was visiting him & he walked out with a jar with old arrow knocks very colorful.He said isn't this beautiful.He got a plastic bag & poured a bunch (http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_1119.jpg)
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_1118.jpg)
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_1117.jpg)
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_1116.jpg) inside & told me to get a jar a display it.Well the jar had an archer displayed on it & I had to find a jar like it to display mine in .It took 2 years & finally found one at an antique shop.Here is a pic.
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Floyd also he gave me the arrow thats in the pictures.It is a replica of an arrow of significant historical importance.But I did not document it.Wade do you recognize this arrow.
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I was fortunate to get one of Floyd's old deer poop clocks with a bunch of old archery stuff from a guy in northerwestern Michigan.He used to own an archery shop and knew Floyd.He got the clock in a trade for some broadheads back in the day.Ol' Floyd was just like one of us today,wheelin' and dealin'.Here's my clock,It is one of my favorite archery collectibles.
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e24/detroitdeerslyer/FloydclockI.jpg)
Here's the back.Sorry for the flash white-out.
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e24/detroitdeerslyer/FloydclockII.jpg)
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I wonder who took the picture of Floyd - Fred & Munger./& Mrs. Eccleston.
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Wade,
I am going to try to copy that clip tonight and get it on this thread. There is another bit of trivia...I remember fondling a bow that Floyd said Errol Flynn used in Robin Hood. Maybe he was pulling my leg, but I had no reason to doubt it. I thought that was almost as cool as sitting in Fred's chair.
Now I need to work out a trade with a guy in Nebraska for something that has a bit more significance than 'my butt was in Fred's chair'.
Bernie
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Wade -
Is that the official "Poop and Young" recordholder clock?
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Bernie,
The supposed "1938 Robin Hood Bow" is a very lengthy story. Boy, I almost don’t know where to start on the subject. Like you Floyd told me the bow was used by Errol Flynn in the 1938 Robin Hood Movie. There were two plates screwed to the bow that indicated that also. Generally everyone in the collecting community referred to the bow as the Robin Hood bow.
A few years after Floyd's death, his son Rich asked me if I was interested in the bow. I told Rich the bow was undoubtedly worth far more that I could ever pay. Rich then asked me if I would authenticate the bow. Rich and I have been friends since meeting the late 1970s and I told him I would be happy to help him out. I figured it would be fairly easy to authenticate the bow, if Errol Flynn used it in the movie, I only had to find and document the scene(s) in which it was used.
The bow was made of yew and had a very unique shape and several easily identifiable characteristics. So I watched the move, expecting to find the bow. In every scene with a bow, I watched slowing down the movie to frame by frame. To my surprise the bow was not to be found in the film. I watched the movie a few times more, and never did find the bow. While it is entirely possible that the bow appeared in a portion of the film that wound up on the cutting room floor, without that footage, it was impossible to authenticate its use in the film.
After I told Rich the bow could not be authenticated in the film, I suggested that he try to find the letter from the previous owner. Floyd and Joney were religious about saving all correspondence. After Floyd’s death, Rich gave me a folder that contained every letter and list that I had sent to Floyd and Joney over the years. Joney was a professional book keeper, her book keeping and records were detailed and complete!
Rich found the letters from the previous owner of the bow, Bill Jeter of California. Bill was a very well respected old time California Bowman/Hunter. In his letters Bill describes both of the labels on the bow as well as who owned the bow before him, another party with no apparent connection to the movie, but again a well respected person who was well to do. This person reportedly received the bow from Flynn. As it turns out, there was no concrete evidence that the bow was used in the move, other than someone writing in a letter that someone told them that it was. With no real proof that the bow was used in the 1938 Robin Hood, all that was left was to say is what has been said in the brief summary. There are some serious Robin Hood collectors who would have been more than interested in the bow, if it did actually appear in the move. I know the bow was sold, but to whom, I have no idea.
I certainly wish there was a better ending to this saga.
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Tony -
Your one liners are too much.
If you haven't already, you need to compile all of them into a book, "Tony's One Liners".
Do you write material for Leno or Letterman, or both?
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One of, if not THE the most educating & interesting places on the web IMHO. :notworthy:
>>--Ron--<>
:campfire:
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Wade,
I don't know what year Floyd traded that guy for my clock,but it appears to be an older one.It also keeps perfect time.He made alot of them.
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Geez Wade, what don't you know? :notworthy: I'm totally impressed and so glad you started this thread. I apologize for the quality of this copy, but I wanted to get it on this thread quickly and only had a folded-up clipping from our library to work with. Someday I'll re-scan the negatives and get them to our online edition, then link them up here as a slideshow--there are quite a few more.
Definitely one of those 'wish I would have known then what I know now' memories.
Hey Rick-there's your jar of nocks on the shelf under the deer head in the small pic.
Top right pic is the arrow shop area just through the doorway behind Fred Bear in Wade's original pic. To the very left in the big pic you can see tips of bows stacked horizontally--I remember bunches of 'em there. That's where the Errol Flynn bow was laying.
Bernie - aka 'one whose butt sat in Fred's chair'
Article from The Saginaw News, September 18, 1994:
(http://i609.photobucket.com/albums/tt177/CrookedStick/chip640.jpg)
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Bernie - Thanks so much for posting the full page Article from The Saginaw News. You have some great photographs on that page. Brings tears to my eyes just looking at those photographs.
Joney fletching arrows is priceless. Floyd with his hands going, you know he is getting wound up.
Just watched two tapes of Floyd last night, so his voice is fresh in my mind. "Archery Shop" sign in an arrow, still cool. Floyd always answered the phone "Archery Shop", then waited for the caller to say something.
Your 1994 Article was probably one of the easiest photo shoots ever for you. Just close your eyes and click the shutter, no matter where the camera was pointed, you had a great photograph of some neat old archery stuff.
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Wade, so I wonder if that yew bow was made by Howard Hill but with out the papers who knows I do know Hill did make some of the bows and arrows for the moive as I read in one of the Hill books....
Cody
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Thanks John.I cant beleive you spotted the jar of knocks.
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The jar with the arrow knocks in it.If you were to look at the top lid of the jar there is a kneeling archer shooting an english long bow etched in the glass.
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Cody - What I said about the yew longbow that Floyd had is pretty much all that can be said about it. We may always wonder about the real story behind that bow.
Yes, Hill made tackle for use in the 1938 Robin Hood, but if a specific piece of tackle can not be seen in the film footage that exists, can it really be authenticated as being used in the film? And without documentation from Hill or Flynn stating Howard made the bow, we will still be wondering forever. Had Hill and/or Flynn actually written on the bow, it would much different. With no writing on the bow, or paperwork from them, it leaves questions. The bow itself looks nothing like a bow that Howard normally made so it would be impossible to identify it as a likeness.
Even though there may be some very specific paper work that states an item was used in the film, if it can not be seen in the film, its value to a that type of collector is significantly less then if the item was visible in the film.
Let me give you another example with a much different outcome. Over 25 years ago, an old employee of Jack Heofer’s gave me a big cast aluminum 3-blade broadhead and told me it was used as a prop head in Cecil B. DeMille's 1932 sound spectacular “Sign of the Cross”. Joe had the same head on an arrow that was inscribed with the movie title, “Sign of the Cross”. In 2002-2003, when I was working on the First Edition of “Broadheads 1871-1971 Identification and Rarity Guide”, I bought a copy of “Sign of the Cross” and watched it from start to finish hoping to find that broadhead in the film so I could actually say these heads were used in the movie. Sure enough the head is clearly visible on more than one arrow in the scene in the grove where the Romans ambush the Christians during their secret gathering. The large cast aluminum heads in the move appear bright and shiny, but now after 77 years, the aged surface of the head is dull.
That is the type of evidence that does not exist for the yew bow.
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Lets get back to those clock's for a minute.There was one hanging in StCharles Northwest Archery for many years.During an earth quake one year it fell on the floor and got the SH&^ knocked out of it.bowdoc
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Doc - You know what they say, "chit happens"
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yeah there was little turds rolling all over the place.bowdoc
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That's funny SH&^ Doc.
Trap
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Fantastic thread and I too thank you for starting it. I don't know anything about anyone in the picture other than Fred Bear. When I close my eyes and imagine what a bowhunter is I see him. Thank you all for the great info!!
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LOL,
Well, that's one story you won't have to authenticate, Wade.... We all know the Doc knows his S**T!!! :saywhat:
>>--Ron--<>
:D
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We better stop making reference to that word or the Clock's gonna hit the fan. ;)
Trap
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Boy did this thread get out of hand...and I can see the twinkle in Floyd's eye along with that smart aleck grin loving every minute of it! :clapper:
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I believe when we went to the clocks the thread went to hell fast.But again what would not be funny about a clock with poop for numbers.bd
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Floyd's clocks are unique. As Bernie points out Floyd would have loved every minute of this and undoubtedly would have come up with some even better ones than we have. After all he had heard thousands of remarks like this during decades of making his famous Deer Me Clocks.
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Trivia question of the morning...
What month, day, and year was the photograph taken?
Bill Hinkley, you can not play... you know the answer from our conversation...
Here is another photograph of Fred on the same trip. A true classic with Fred and Floyd sitting at the kitchen table. If you ever spent much time at the Chippewa Archery Shop, you eventually wound up at the main meeting site, the kitchen table...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/FFF.jpg)
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For the first person who can guess the month, day and year, I will make a copy of the photograph with Floyd, Fred, Joney and Bob and send it to you...
Hinkley, I will make a second copy for you that you can pick up when you are here in a couple of weeks...
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I give up Wade - not fair - I could walk into the Ecclestons' place anytime and not know what year I was in let alone what year that photo was taken!
But again, thanks for posting it...great thread for a mid-Michigan boy.
Bernie
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Bernie - Walking into Floyd's shop was like stepping into a time warp. It would be hard to guess what date it was just from looking at all the old stuff around you. There are some good clues in the two photographs and text. A little homework and you should be able to narrow the date down.
If you guys don't guess it by this evening, I will give you a good clue...
OK guys, what is unusual about this photograph of Fred and Floyd ???
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Wade,
Is the unusual thing that Fred seems to be writing right handed?
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reddogge -
Fred was right handed...
He shot a bow left handed because the end of one finger on the right hand was cut off in his youth...
Although not visible in most photographs, I have a few photographs of Fred that show this partial finger on his right hand.
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Wade, I have some others from that day you may not have. ;)
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Bill - You always seem to have all the good stuff.
When you stop by, be sure to bring along those other photographs from that day.
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Wade, I am a true novice here but I had no idea Fred had lost a finger on his right hand which led to the left handed shooting. Any idea if he was left eye dominant too? Thought I might ask. Thanks
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;)
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The unusual thing is Fred is trimming his finger nails, not his toe nails????
Floyd's short sleeve shirt would indicate warm weather...so late spring to early fall. I'd guess maybe 2 years before Fred'd death...1986?
Tom I.
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:archer: :jumper:
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Bill - Great collection of Floyd's Clocks. I was trying to change the subject from clocks, and you reintroduced the subject. Hopefully the conversation does not return to its previous focus on the clock numbers.
Tom I. - Your logic is sound. You are correct the year is 1986.
Your assumption about Floyd's short sleeve shirt is also very logical.
Now you only need to come up with the day and month.
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April 1 1986?
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Tony - As always we can count on you for a good laugh. That was a great guess, give the fact that we had some fun just 3 days ago on April 1.
Sorry the photograph was not taken in April.
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Wade,
Since I gave up right off, I just sent you a PM with a guess based on the new clues.
Am I close?
In my search for the answer, I came across some old auction site info announcing much of Floyd's stuff going up for auction. Geez, I guy gets out of this Archery thing for ten years and really misses the boat!
Bernie
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Bernie,
Everyone is entitled to a guess. Even though you gave up, you had not guessed yet.
Post your PM that you sent to me and find out the results...
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Ok Wade, here it is:
... it's been bugging me and causing me to search for clues. I would guess it's June 1986. The third weekend, maybe Friday, June 20 in the a.m. It's probably Bob Munger's bday card, but I can't find his bday.
I 'think' that kitchen door faced east (but I could be confusing it with the shop door), so they were at the kitchen table first thing in the a.m. on Fred's way to the Anderson Archery Clinic?
Or I guess it could be the 22nd or 23rd on Fred's way back from the clinic.
Am I close or still fishin'?
Bernie
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Bernie - You are as close as you can get without being right on the exact date... June 24, 1986
Because it would be an unfair advantage for future guesses to say you missed the date by one day, you are officially declared as the winner…
Congratulations on using some very sound reasoning. Frankly, I am impressed with your detective skills, considering you were a Newspaper man, it is probably natural. You may want to change your handle to Clark Kent.
PM me your mailing address so I can send you the photograph.
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Great, thanks Wade!
Glad you let me re-up and play. The pic will have a prominent place in my home - with a caption mentioning my butt once sitting in that chair. :biglaugh:
Interesting though, I wonder what other friends Fred and Bob visited in the day or so between their Anderson stop and the Ecclestons, considering it was only an hour from the clinic to Mount Pleasant.
Hmmmmm...
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Have no idea what Fred's itinerary was for that entire trip. Heaven knows Fred had hundreds of old friends to see all over Michigan. Floyd usually had the collection at Anderson Archery and if so undoubtedly saw Fred there too. Joney usually took care of the shop while Floyd was on a trip showing the collection.
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Bernie & Tom I.
Tom, your guess for the year was right on the money. Bernie once Tom had the year pegged for you, your guess on the month and day was even better, even though you missed by one day.
I made two copies of the photograph, one of each of you. Thought you guys might want to see the frame that Floyd had the photograph mounted in, just in case you wanted to make your copy like Floyd’s. Also thought you might like to have your copy shown in this backdrop before it leaves the Antique Archery Arsenal. Could get complicated trying to describe it… a photograph of an original photograph and copies of the photograph, taken where Fred is sitting in the original photograph…
PM me your mailing addresses and I will get these copies out to you guys….
Note the date on the back of the photograph 6-24-86, also note the Kodiak Paper date, the print was not processed until Aug 1986. Oh yes, back in the days before digital photography…
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/FF-CHARI.jpg)
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/FF-CHAR2.jpg)
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Wade, my logic for choosing the year was: knowing that Fred was on oxygen for the last year or so of his life and that he died in '88.
The picture showed no evidence of an oxygen tank.
The thread title said "Last visit" so I figured it had to be about 2 yrs before he died...thus 1986.
I sent you a PM.....
Thanks so much for letting me share in the reward! It's something I'll cherish.
Tom I.
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Wade,
Thanks for printing two...I figured the trip/time of year, but had no idea of the year without Tom I.
I think I pm'd you my address, but I'll send it again just in case.
And by the way, we photogs call it Kodak paper - but I guess I understand your habit of adding the 'i'!
Bernie
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Wade,
You are a gentleman and a scholar. The photo arrived today. I appreciate the comments you included.
Shoot straight!
Bernie
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Bernie - It has been a three months since we did this thread. Glad you liked the photograph.
Since you just asked on another thread, thought it was time to post a little update...
Did get some information about the chair.
I was floored when the person who took the photograph told me that the chair was from Fred's office in Grayling and in 1978 when Bear moved to Florida, the chair was given to a gentlemen (now deceased) who took it to Floyd's place.
The chair was at Floyd's shop until 2008, when it was moved to its present home.
Have looked though several sources trying to find the chair pictured in Fred's office, but have only found two other chairs... Would like to find a photograph of the chair in Fred's office to go along with the one of Fred sitting in it in Floyd's shop. Such a photograph would sort of complete the story.
I'll keep searching...
Yes, all collectors are crazy...
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Once again great story Wade.
Thanks for the addition--ended up finding an all-glass frame for that photo because you had a note on both front and back. Looks mighty fine...great memories.
So.....when should I expect that pic of the successful bear hunter? ;)
By the way, we should check with JohnnyRazorhead, if there is a Bear pic to be had, he's probably seen it--maybe he remembers the chair in one of the pics that passed through his hands.
Bernie
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Bernie,
That poster of the successful Bear Hunter is 24" tall x 35" wide. My scanner is only 9" x 12"...
Any suggestions except send you the original poster?
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Wade- I just spent the last hour looking for info on your chair.. Well I didn't come up with any thing.. So I will just come and get that old thing from you.. It would look good in my room.. Just let me know when I can come get it...LOL..LOL
No anyways Wade I looked in a few books on Fred and the book Mr.Lattimer wrote and spent the last 30mins looking for pics on google and didn't come up with a thing..
I will keep looking..
Cody
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Cody - If you can pick it up before 9:00 AM tomorrow morning Aug 1, 2009, you can have it.
About 9AM I'm leaving for the monthly breakfast with old class mates. If you are not here before I leave, I'll probably just keep it until I croak.
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Wade it can be done... I will be at your dooor rigth at 9:00 Am.. If mapquest :readit: is rigth it will only take me 10hr to get there.. Plus you guys are an hr behind us.. Which would put me at your door right at 9:00.. Make sure u have the coffee ready when I get there :coffee: ...LOL...
Wade great pice of history man... I will see if I can find any pics..
Cody
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Cody, did you make it?
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What a wonderful thread. Reading it makes one feel like I have just been made priveledge to a slice of Archery heaven.
Run Cody Run.........
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Hud & 69RECURVE - Cody never showed up here Saturday. So guess I will have to continue as its caretaker.
Was thinking it would be great to bring Fred's Chair to Compton next year so everyone who attends could have a chance to sit in it.
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Wow what a thread.
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Just ran across this thread, great reading!
I spent the better part of last week in Mount Pleasant while attending the powwow on the reservation with my wife. Kind of ironic but I had thoughts of driving past the old Chippewa Archery Shop while we were near there. We had driven to the shop a few years ago but by then the business had already closed so I never got a chance to walk in and experience the treasures that were held inside.