Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: TRAP on March 29, 2009, 04:24:00 PM
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We talk alot about restoring old bows and making all sorts of replacement parts for them from feather rests to strike plates to replacement tips and leather grips.
How about strings? What kind of strings do you use on Vintage bows?
I was recently given a endless loop jig and have been playing with building some EL strings. They look pretty good on the old Bears. I'll try to get some pics up soon.
Trap
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Endless loop for me. I just think they look (and are) proper on the old Bear bows. CKruse
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I think is is all personal choice. Fr me...endless loop.
I would think that longbow shooters may prefer flemish. They are more rustic looking. I also understand that flemish strings are adjustable, so it is better for adjusting string length without having to twist them shorter, making the string thicker and heavier.
The only flemish string I ever tried was one that came on a used bow I boutht. I did not like it...but that's just me.
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Hey Trap,
I use Flemish strings on mine because that is the only kind I have figured out how to make, and I just learned to do that last weekend. I don't really have any place to buy strings except mail order.
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Endless Loop are the original strings on all the original Bear Kodiaks.
I wouldn't think of putting a Flemish string on an old Kodiak. Would be like putting T-Bird Hubcaps on 1963 Corvette. OK if you wanted to do it, but not close to being historically accurate.
Trap - Are you thinking of making some Authentic Replica 1959 Kodiak Strings, true to colors ???
I'm certain you will have buyers for them.
I make all of my own strings but have never been able to duplicate the 1959 Kodiak String Color exactly...
Always a little too light or little to dark. OK, Call me eccentric.
You could even package the stings in a replica of the original Bear String Package... (that might be stretching it a bit...)
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59-STRG.jpg)
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Wade, Nope not ever going to sell one. Might give a few away or trade a few if I get them right. Would you be kind enough to post a picture of a Bear 59 Kodiak string. I dont even know what the true colors are supposed to be.
I've been making a few with white or tan B50 and green or red serving.
I bought a near mint 59 Grizzly once with what I'm pretty sure was the original string. It was white with red serving.
Trap
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Trap - Probably don't have to tell you whose 59 Kodiak this original string is on... Best to go right to the source rather than leave any doubt about what the authentic colors are. This is exactly how I remember the 59 Strings and is just the same as the old strings on some of 59 Kodiaks that I have picked over the years... Sometimes, the actual string might be a little darker, but the serving is always a dark burgundy.
We won't mention the 6-line Strike Plate on a 1959 Kodiak...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59-STR.jpg)
In the catalog you will see the burgundy serving on white string.
Either would be considered correct.
Here is a photograph of white sting with burgundy serving like shown in the catalog, a bit dirty... The sting was use enough to be broken in, than but back in the package for a spare...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59-STR2.jpg)
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Can somsone show me endless loop.Being fairly new to traditional archery I don't remember ever seeing one.
Terry
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Cost or profit was or is the bottom line on endless loop strings because they were and still are cheap.I mean less expensive then a flemish.I did not mean cheap like cheap.
Whatever string you do like to use yourself.I would stay away from those no stretch strings(FF)on older model bows.
Myself I use flemish because I'am cheap to cheap to buy strings.bowdoc
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Doc - If you have a bow like Fred's 59 with the cut down shelf, why not have a string like his too ???
Another type of string you probably want to stay away from are the metal strings that were sold during the original Kodiak era (not sold by Bear).
Terry - Got the photograph loaded above of the well wrinkled Endless Loop that was in the Bear String Package.
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I always used endless loop strings,until I finally built a jig and started making flemish strings.Endless loop strings to me are boring looking,where as I can put my own personal touches on my vintage bows with one of my own flemish strings.
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Hey Daryl got any pics of yours?
Wade, I reread your post,did the original strings have 2 tones (one color but not solid) as in the pics above? I would have thought that is age or a reaction with the packaging on a neutral color dacron.
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Richard - What ever string trips your trigger is what you should use.
To you and many others the endless loop looks boring... Frankly, they are pretty boring looking, but I like my attention focused on the 1959 or 1950 Kodiak, rather then a fancy string.
To me the endless loop on a 1959 or 1960 Kodiak brings out the beauty of the bow, looks like it belongs there and looks authentic, and reminds me of those 1950s hunts.
For those who weren't there in the 1950s, it is understandable why they might have a completely different paradigm.
I've bought a few 1959 & 1960 Kodiaks with Flemish strings and always remove them. Usually put the Flemish strings on bows I sell.
I still have some longbows that I shot for awhile over 25 years ago, they have Flemish strings. I wouldn't think of putting an endless loop on them.
I wouldn't think of putting a endless loop on any of my 1930s and 1940s Bear Grumley's.
So I have plenty of both endless loop and Flemish.
But for my old Kodiaks, it's only the endless loop...
Kurt - I edited the text Burgundy/white to be burgundy serving and white string. Don't want anyone to get confused.
I'm sure the aging process differed from string to string depending on what it was exposed to over the past 50 years.
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Originally posted by Wade Phillips:
Richard - What ever string trips your trigger is what you should use.
To you and many others the endless loop looks boring... Frankly, they are pretty boring looking, but I like my attention focused on the 1959 or 1950 Kodiak, rather then a fancy string.
To me the endless loop on a 1959 or 1960 Kodiak brings out the beauty of the bow, looks like it belongs there and looks authentic, and reminds me of those 1950s hunts.
For those who weren't there in the 1950s, it is understandable why they might have a completely different paradigm.
I've bought a few 1959 & 1960 Kodiaks with Flemish strings and always remove them. Usually put the Flemish strings on bows I sell.
I still have some longbows that I shot for awhile over 25 years ago, they have Flemish strings. I wouldn't think of putting an endless loop on them.
I wouldn't think of putting a endless loop on any of my 1930s and 1940s Bear Grumley's.
So I have plenty of both endless loop and Flemish.
But for the old Kodiaks, it's only the endless loop..
Oh not trying to say anything bad about them at all.Just like the looks of the flemish better.That and I never have to buy any strings anymore. :thumbsup:
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If you make your own endless loop, you don't have to buy any strings either.
Endless loop strings are pretty simple to make. If I can make them, anyone with two hands should be able to made endless loop strings too...
My best hunting pal of over 30 years, has made his own Flemish strings for years and has more old Bear bows with Flemish strings than anyone I have ever seen. Flemish strings trip his trigger, I understand perfectly where he is coming from.
He probably thinks I'm just an eccentric old fart who is never going to change my ways and put a Flemish string on an old Kodiak. He's probably right.
Richard - I own lots of Flemish strings. Here are some Flemish stings that are over 25 years old, they on a couple of my old Tim Meigs longbows. By today's standards, they are a little boring being single color. I don't shoot them so the srings will never change. The bottom bow is a circa 1941 Grumley Bush Bow still with an original Flemish Sting. Yes that bow is STRUNG !!!
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/FLEMISH.jpg)
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Thanks for the pics Wade, Now the quest for the right color string and serving :)
I've been making Flemish twist strings for about 20 years and never really perfected the art like Jim Raine and other guys have. My FT's are functional and thats about it.
I read somewhere once that old dried out serving loops can act kinda like a saw or a file on older paper micarta overlays and to avoid their use. Something to think about before stringing your favorite collectible with an older string.
I never really thought much about endless loop strings untill I refinnished a 55 Kodiak and for some reason I just didnt think a flemish string looked quite right on that old classic. I bought an endless loop from a guy on e8ay, installed a couple of foam brush buttons which Mike Shaw so graciously sent me, and hey I got hooked.
Not sure why endless loops are cheaper than Flemish strings. Endless loops use more serving material and take quite a bit longer to make. Probably has something to do with the old supply and demand economics theory.
Kurt, sorry no pics yet but I'll try to get some posted soon.
Trap
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I've heard guys say FT is easier on the string grooves and overlays, but I've shot tens of thousands of arrows out of old Kodiaks and never had a problem. But for hunting, I only shoot bows that have the marcarta overlays replaced with fiberglass. That paper will give way at some point. Guys who take an old Kodiak with the original macarta overlays out on a two week hunting trip, should be lashed with the string, regardless if it is a FT or endless loop.
A guy can build up the loops of the string with extra strands on an endless loop string as easy as on a FT, if guys are interested in doing that. I build up the loops with some extra strands before serving the ends.
The B-50 in that light tan color is pretty close to Fred's 59 string. I've used that a lot. Actually it is just a little dark. The light tan is neutral and doesn't take away from the bow. For me, white pulls the eye toward the string and away from the bow. I'd much rather have a great looking classic Kodiak with a neutral string than any bow with an eye catching sting... OK, now, remember, there are exceptions to every rule about Bear Bows, the Signature bow has a white, FT string, and was made in Gainseville bow, OMG 3 exceptions...
I have never found that dark burgundy serving so use the darkest red I can find and then lay the bow in the mud every chance I get until the string gets close to burgundy, LOL. Trust me, if the bow goes in the mud I'm already in it.
Years ago I looked into to special ordering some burgundy serving, and was told the minimum order was XX tens of thousands of feet, so that idea was abandoned.
Let me know if you find some burgundy that is close in color to Fred's 59, I'd like to buy a lifetime supply. Hopefully that is quite a bit.
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Have you thought of dyeing some serving Wade?
Rit dye works wonders in the right combination.
This is fun, now a quest for the perfect "replica" string.
Oops, gotta stay focused on other repro projects first. ;)
Trap
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My experiences with dying leather grips sort of broke me of any additional experimentation with dyes. I found the rain just loosens up the colors in the leather and it bleeds.
Figured I might wind with burgundy fingers if dyed the serving...
Is Rit dye water proof?
Wait until we start on the other replica items for outfitting the authentic equipment for a 1959 hunt...
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If you "set" rit dye with vinegar and rinse it well before drying it shouldnt bleed any more.
I'll play around with it soon.
Yeah, there's no end to those things that could be replicated for the 59 hunt.
A bunch of us could head to the Little Delta Region in black Chuck Taylors, striped flannel pajamas, WWII Camo, Barsilino Hats, with 59 Kodiaks and a quiver full of white dipped arrows.
Trap
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Wade if you use a little leather top cote or top coat if you prefer.It will prevent the bleeding of the dyes on leathers.I don't know about string serveing but man it works super good on leather.Its actually a sealer protecter.bowdoc
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Doc - A few years back I did several grips for a friend and he used the top cote over the stain and loved it. I didn't care for the sheen that the top cote left on the surface. Rather than dye the leather, I'd love to find the right colored leather, but again have had no such luck. I may have to revisit the top cote experiments. Thanks for jogging my nearly lost memory.
Simon's use of natural oil on the grip in this recent post, seemed to have some legitimate potential. So, being the guy who is always looking for the right answer, I oiled up several veg tan leather samples with everything from vegetable oil to Emeril Lagasse's vinegar and oil Cajun salad dressing.
I believe Simon's approach has real promise. The oil dried out a lot the first day so I'm going to wait a week or two to see how the oil drys before making a decision. I can tell you now that I pretty much already gave up on using Emeril's stuff on leather, but hey, it's still great on salad.
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Trap - Let me know if you have any luck dying some serving to the right color.
I've been looking for material to match Fred's 1946 pajamas. They are the coolest.
The 1946 photograph of Fred in those pajams as the camp cook is one of the best ever taken of him. I have a framed 8x10 of it that hangs in our cook tent over the stove.
All of our camp visitors love it. On the back side of the photograph frame I taped Fred's own account of the hunt as he wrote it in the 1940s. One of the best ever, but one of the least known.
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Wade,nothing wrong with any of those my friend. :thumbsup:
Have a pic of the whole Grumley? :D :D
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Since serving materials are rarely pre-waxed, dying might be an option. But is white or neutral serving material even available? Dying B-50, because it normally comes pre-waxed, might be near impossible.
Speaking of string wear in nock grooves, recently someone told me that the first thing they do with a new string is remove all wax from it. As I recall, he said he uses denatured alcohol to remove the wax. The reason? He claims that the wax attracts and stores grit and grime on the string which wears on the nock grooves and string fibers, causing them to fail sooner.
Any thoughts?
Tom I.
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Richard - This is a photograph of the whole Grumley you requested.
Actually the photograph is of the entire Grumley Case #3, that the strung Grumley is in with some other branded Bear Products by Grumley hunting bows. Left side contains early Bush Bows and photographs of Nels, top working on bow, second at a sport show, the other 4 photographs are 4 of the 7 deer that Nels killed the first 10 years of Michigan's B&A deer seasons. Still working on this display, plans are to have it and the other 9 Grumley display cases completed within a couple of months.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/BearProductsbyGrumleyCase3.jpg)
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Those static tip bows are so cool.I think that's going to be in my sights next after I pickup my '57 Kodiak. :wavey: :D
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What are those old Selfbows doing on a string thread???? ;)
Very nice display Wade.
Okay first attempt
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/BurgundyServing002.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/BurgundyServing005.jpg)
Trap
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Trap - The self bow photo was showing the FT string on the strung Grumley Bush Bow - If you want me to edit the post and remove the photograph, I will be pleased to do so...
Nice burgundy color on the serving !!! That is pretty darn close to the original color. If you are selling burgundy serving, let me know the cost per 100 feet...
Speaking of pretty darn close to the original color... yesterday I picked up the leather under this original 1959 Kodiak Special strike plate. What do you think of it for being close in color ?
I got enough for dozens of 59 KS strike plates. If you want some, I'll send you a chunk, with exact size tracing of the 59 KS Strike Plate.
Leather is about .045" thick, twice the thickness of an original 59 KS SP, so it will take lots of skiving to get the correct thickness.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/59KS-SP.jpg)
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(http://www.broadheads.de/Bilder/bowpics/Strings/LinenString_6880_200.jpg)
Here is some burgundy string I just made last week for an ELB. Depicted at this stage to show the lenght of my splice. Thread ends will be clipped before first stretching, so the remainder is pulled back into the corpus, to give a clean look.
(http://www.broadheads.de/Bilder/bowpics/Strings/LinenString_6892_400.jpg)
Here I am done with just that and after stringing the bow and rubbing in the pure bees wax I use on the threads when building a string, the color darkens quite a bit, as can be seen here.
This one is made of 18/3 linen, so may not be of any use for your purpose Wade. But if you think otherwise, I can send you some ...
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Please do not remove that photo. I was just joking, Who could "not" enjoy those Grumleys?
From the above photo, which B50 is best? The cream or the tan?
I'll get you some serving to play with Wade.
If you want to send a piece of the leather, I'll take it to my friends shop and we can attempt to skive it down.
The color looks good.
Trap
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edit that pic of the Grum's ? oh hell no.I like it and I don't care what threads they are listed under I just love to look at em.There is a certin magic about a Grumley.
OK trivia for today.How many flemish twist string did Fred Bear himself ever make documented on paper ? no idea huh ? 100's 1000's...no I'am affaid not.He actually only ever made one that is documented.I personaly happen to know who has that string and the paper work.The paper says something to the affect of this is the only flemish twist string Fred Bear ever made..bowdoc
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Trap - That light tan B-50 looks like it is about as close as you may ever get to the string on Fred's 59 Kodiak.
Show us a photograph of some of your burgundy serving on a string.... it should be pretty close too... Will look forward to getting some to play with.
You will have to give us a step by step process for dying that serving material.
I'll send you a slab of that near 59 KS strike plate color leather to see what you can do with it.
Does you friend have a machine skiver at his shop or does he skive leather by hand?
Doc - You presented some interesting Bear flemish twist trivia. What was the length and number of strands of that string?
Should we consider creating a Fred Bear Trivia game? It might hit the best seller list.
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Hey Trap,
Did you start with white serving thread? ( If you don't mind giving up a trade secret!)
Wade, Very nice display! I don't see how anyone could not enjoy looking at them. Thanks!
I guess I'll have to make an endless loop string jig now.
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:bigsmyl:
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Wade I will email the guy and ask if he would eather send me a couple pics or post them himself.The string was a gift from Henrita to someone after Fred passed away I believe.It came with the note.
Oh heck no no trivia on Fred that will just create my bow junkies then we got now.bd
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Doc - Would be cool to see a photograph of the string and note.
This is a collection of original Bear Bowstrings in their original Bear plastic tubes in an original Bear Display Rack. I've been working on this display for some time and still need to upgrade some of the tubes and strings.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/B-STRING.jpg)
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Wadester thats a cool one there man I love that type display.I been working on collecting Bear pointers in the original packages for several years and need to get those all hung on peg boards.bowdoc
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Doc - The original packages of Bear Pointers are cool. Even cooler are original packages of the KLEENKUT Feathers from Bear Archery Detroit, Mich, sold during the Grumley era, see bottom of photograph... These are all left wing. Let me know if you are collecting by color and wing...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/POINTER.jpg)
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You could cut those babies up and make some serious feather rests :bigsmyl:
Trap
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Trap -
Yes, great idea. I will use them on my new design feather rest when the patent is granted...
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I will have to dig mine out and see what all I got.Nice display bowdoc
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I know better, you won't cut those up.
Trap
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Trap - You are the one who suggested cutting them up...
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Wade great I been looking for some Bowstrings for some of my bows I have laying around.....LOL
Wade great display as well,
Cody
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Yes I did, but I think they are safe.
How much serving do you need to get a couple strings made to see if you like it?
I've never paid any attention to how much it takes to build a string.
Trap
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Trap - Boy, I don't know how much serving it takes to build a string either. I've usually got a few rolls around and just use it... I'd think 20 feet should build a couple of strings. At least one for sure, which is fine. What color did you start with before you dyed it?
Cody - If I get a chance tomorrow, I will take a photograph of my bowstring cache that you will not believe..
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Ok wade sounds great.. Guys this is the only one of these bear bowstring tubs I have (http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu197/TradBowKid/bearbowstings072.jpg)
Here is a pic of the 1959 bear gizz that Bjorn sent me to shoot this up coming fall.. I think this bowstring is B-50 I would like to get some more made for it... (http://i647.photobucket.com/albums/uu197/TradBowKid/bearbowstings073.jpg)
Cody
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Now Wade,
I seem to recall asking you a similar question and your reply was "I've probably told you too much already"
:biglaugh:
Trap
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Trap - I'm guessing you are talking about the feather rests.
Hey you are the one who suggested I cut up the Bear Turkey Pointers. I was just going along with you for the joke. Wouldn't be any fun if I can't tease you back...
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Hey you two this ai'nt no joke a couple years ago just before elk season.I was going to fletch up some new arrows.Yeah I know you know where this one's headed.I opened 3 of my packages and used them.You can replace them with new feather but it just ai'nt the same.bowdoc
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Yeah,Don, but think of the mojo those arrows must have had...
Tom I.
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(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/KodiakString007.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/KodiakString010.jpg)
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Dangit Daryl, that's a couple of sweet photos and there isn't even a bow in the picture! YOW! :saywhat: CKruse
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Nice quiver Trap!!
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Thanks fellas,
Bob and Wade, I started with brown nylon serving and added 3 parts red to 1 part royal blue rit dye in really hot water to come up with the burgandy color serving. 1/2 cup of white vinegar helps "set" the dye. I let the serving soak overnight in the solution and in the morning rinsed with cold water until the rinse water ran clear.
Trap
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Good job Trap! Really nice quiver too!
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Thanks Bob, Bjorn was nice enough to part with that old chunk of leather. I'm happy to own it.
Trap