Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: d. ward on February 25, 2009, 11:29:00 AM
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I will say I been about as busy as one could get.I did not even have time to do much shooting.Which actually is my real love of archery.Shooting the darn bows.
It finally stopped raining this morning and is somewhat sunny out.
I just could not resist stringing and testing out a few bows I've picked up.
This AM I took the string off my 1959 Grizzly and adjusted it to fit Val's 1959 Kodiak Special 62" 59#'s and its one of the shortest heaviest specials I've shot.
One thing is for sure if I were still shooting bows in the plus 55#-60# range I would be keeping this gem for the bowdocs special Special...Its just a bit to heavy for me though but man what a shooter.Nail driveing machine right there.Here's a pic of it strung...good looking bows.bd (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/val002.jpg)
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Yeah I figured it a bit heavy for you bowdoc-better send that one to me so it won't go unattended.
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Wow Bj if I were still shooting that weight I would be using it in Que'bec for the 50th birthday of the 1959 this spring..thats one heck of a hard hitting bow right there.
It is the one from gbay and it did have the small crack at the shelf but it only took 3-4 drops of LC on it and it was fine.I shoot it at around 27" draw this AM many times and it was shooting great.I thought about narrowing the limbs and reduce the draw weight 3-4#.But the limbs are already so narrow from the factory it would be hard to do.pretty darn cool bow...bd
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Bowdoc
You seem to be out of stock of those accented «é». I have a few extra «é» laying around so I thought I would send you some through this post.
Here you go ;)
ééééééééééééééééééééééééééééé
If you need more, let me know.
-Simon (from Québec)
Nice bow BTW
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Simon where the heck did you get all those ? bd
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Bowdoc
I can’t divulge my source. I might, actually I am going to pay you guys a visit this summer in La Tuque and I’ll bring an assortment of é è ê à and â
for all to sample and enjoy.
On an other note, there don’t seem to be any rest or side plate on Val’s KS.
-Simon
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I will be looking foward to seeing you and collecting some e's and a's or is it ahh.
Good eye Simon there is no strike plate or arrow rest on the 59 Special.If you are going to chrony a bow always lieve the strike plate and arrow rest off.That will help prevent drag and make the bow shoot a bit faster.I learned that via E.T.Williams and Jack Howard...bd
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BowDoc - The 62" 1959 Kodiak Specials are real nail drivers. I have them from 40# to 65# and have found all of them to be great shooters.
The VA612, 62" 55# 1959 at the left of these half dozen extra '59 & '60 Specials, is one of the best shooting bows I've ever owned. Still has the original marcata tips and original lettering on the riser. Also has a few stress cracks in the lower limb. Always meant to send it to you for new tips and refinish, but never got around to it. Don't really have a need for another hunting bow so have only used it for the occasional stroll on those nice days and to demonstrate how great a sleek old 55# bow can actually shoot.
If you run into anyone who needs a lighter one than your 59#, let them know about this 55#, as I could be talked out of any of these 6 extra old Specials.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/059KS-E4.jpg)
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Wade, put me in your will for the 2nd one on the left side with the Brazilian rosewood featuring the big stripe of sap wood. I love that stuff! CKruse
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Oh yeah they are just great shooters.The 55 may even run a bit on the high side for me also.I'am more the 51-53# guy.I do shoot 55-60 but can't all day.Some real beauties...bd
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CKruse - You and I both have a lot in common with Fred Bear as he also like that Brazilian Rosewood with the sap wood. Fred had a special name for it. I have a 1959 and a 1960 Kodiak that each have some sapwood showing. Makes for a nice contrast.
BowDoc - The nicest 62" 1959 KS I have is labeled 50# but scales 52#. No you are not getting it, it is the one in my collection and is all original.
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I also have the 1959 64" 52# Kodiak Special of Vals which is very near the specs of my own 1959 Kodiak 64" 51#.
Its really hard to say which one shoots better Kodiak or Kodiak Special as far as 64" bows go.I know neather one is smoken fast by any means however they do shoot very good.bd
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BowDoc - I have three 1959 64" Kodiak Specials and several 64" 1959 Kodiaks. While these 64" bows are good shooters, the 1959 62" Kodiak Special is better in my hands, but my preference for hunting is still the 60" Kodiak.
I don't care for the 64" length for hunting probably because the 60" Kodiak limbs never seem to be in the way. For me the 4" longer limbs frequently are in the way, especially when stalking in brush or timber.
I also like the leather grip of the Kodiak for hunting. I've found it especially useful it's unbearably hot or bitterly cold.
While the 1959 Kodiak Special is a good shooter, has an eye catching riser, and is a pleasant distraction as a Bear Collectible, give me the plain old 60" 1959 or 1960 Kodiak for hunting any day and I will be happy.
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I love my 62" 50# (bottom bow in photo)
I like it so much, I'd like to have a couple more ;)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/bearcollection012.jpg)
Trap
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Wade, thanks for the photo of the 59 KS's and 60 KS's side by side. I was aware of the fiberglass on the backside of the sight window as being a feature of the 60 KS. I see from the pics that the inlay on the belly side of the riser is a different shape as well. A true crescent on the 1960 whereas the 1959 has a flare at each end.
It's very helpful to see the pictures of different models side by side. As everyone knows we dont always get the pictures we would like from potential sellers. Every little IDing tip helps.
Nice bows all of them. Thanks again. Trap
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Trap - Yes, the riser insets in the 1959 and 1960 Kodiak Specials are completely different. The 1960 inset is a true cresent. Explaining the difference can be confusing until you see them side by side.
The 1959 Kodiak Special is shown in both the 1959 and 1960 Bear Catalogs, which really confuses collectors who only have catalog copies for reference and never see the true crescent inset.
Your two 1959 Kodiak Specials are nice looking bows. The 62" 50# is as blond as any 59 Special I have ever seen.
In my collection display, I have its length/weight twin 62", 50#, VA467L. That is the bottom bow in the 59-60 KS & KSD display.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/1960KSD1.jpg)
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Yeah, I've never seen one this color either.
Serial # VA558L
It has no overlay material on the belly side of the tips like the 64 incher I have, and the tips are a little smaller and sleeker. Early 59KS or Later 59KS? Any thoughts?
It's really a shooter, Trap
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That is it! Wade, Trap, and the rest of you fellas, from now on when i am traveling i am contacting folks cause I just have to see this stuff up close.
you guys have some great stuff. :clapper:
Mickey
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Trap - I've seen many original finish Kodiaks with the blond color... become real dark when re-finished. Would guess the same would happen to your 62" 59 KS if it were refinished.
I call the black material on the belly at the tips, Underlays, as a means to differentiate from overlay material. Just trying to make a common language more easily understood.
Not sure there is a chronological order to the underlays. Never really tried to figure them out as to me they are simply one of many cosmetic features that are not worthy of consideration for dating bows.
I would not be surprised to learn that there are exceptions to high-low 1959 serial numbers with or without underlays.
I would think in a few days, that we could get a few dozen 1959 Kodiak Serial numbers of various lengths to see if a pattern emerges with or without underlays.
Of the 9 I've shown on this thread, 3 have underlays. Of your two, 1 has underlays. BowDoc has two, that is 13. If we can get a couple dozen more, we may see a pattern.
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May be Bear Archery's prettiest design, they are nice.
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Okay, here's one for comparison.
'59 66 inch x 40 lb. ser.# XE403L no underlays
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OK, This is a start. Let's hear from everyone who has a 59 Kodiak Special, any length, with or without underlays. Post your data and we will incorporate it into this list to see if there is a pattern...
Haven't seen any 62" or 70" with underlays...
BowDoc - Help us out here with 59 KS data...
1959 62", 50# - VA467L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 50# - VA558L - no underlays - Trap
1959 62", 55# - VA612L - no underlays - Wade
1959 64", 52# - WA139 - underlays - Wade
1959 64", 48# - WB504 - underlays - Trap
1959 64", 28# - WB934 - underlays - Bill
1959 64", 47# - WC365L - no underlays - Wade
1959 66", 28# - XA844 - underlays - Wade
1959 66", 40# - XE403L - no underlays - seboomook
1959 68", 45# - YA367 - underlays - Wade
1959 68", 38# - YB965 - no underlays - Wade
1959 70", 38# - XF096 - no underlays - Wade
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1959 64" 48# WB504 underlays
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1959 64", 28# - WB934 - underlays - Bill
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Wow, I just love reading this stuff. you guys sure are a wealth of info. Keep up the good stuff.
thanks for your willingness to share.
Mickey
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Here's mine
1959 64", 53# - WC061 - no underlays - Jeremy
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1959 Kodiak Specials in my collection....
VA 228 62" 46#
17HX12 62" 40-45#
WC020 64" 45# has black underlays
XF877R 66" 40#
XF090 66" 39# has brown and white overlays
YB499A 68" 32#
ZA110 70" 40# has black underlays
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/minnesota078-1.jpg)
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Chuck - Thanks so much for posting the photograph and specs of your 1959 Kodiak Specials... impressive bows.
Equally impressive is the information in the numbers on the bows...
Just as I suspected for the 70" the "Z" was used as the designation...
Will get your data incorporated into the list here shortly....
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Yes I did kind of make up the serial number off a broken 1959 so X may have been incorrect.Yes you are also correct about the underlays.One was missing completely and the other was raised a bit and we agreed to remove the other rather then try and match the new one.bd
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Doc - I'm cool with the made up serial number on the 70". If I complained, you'd probably just tell me to scrap it off with my pocket knife and re-letter it with a crayon. - Just joking...
It is actually my fault about the serial number as I should have dug around to find out a real number. Problem was back then, I didn't know anyone with another 70". There weren't many idiots trying to complete a collection of every length of the Kodiak Specials for any year.
Actually it is also my fault for the underlays not being replaced. If I hadn't been such a penny pincher at the time, I would have paid you to do the work, it would have the underlays and we wouldn't be trying to recall the past. Glad you remembered about the one underlay being missing. I will have to re-record that 70" on the list.
I promise never to send you such a messed up bow again... unless of course it is a Christmas present.
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OK guys....
We now have 25... so looks like some trends are beginning to show up... but this sample size is way too small for two variations of 5 different lengths of bows or 10 possible combinations...
Lets get some more added to this list... for all lengths.... For some lengths we have recorded only one example for a specific characteristic and for 70" we have not recorded any that did not originally have underlays...
1959 62", 59# - VA105 - underlays - BowDoc
1959 62", 46# - VA 228 - no underlays - Chuck
1959 62", 50# - VA467L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 50# - VA558L - no underlays - Trap
1959 62", 55# - VA612L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 40-45# - 17HX12 - no underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 52# - WA139 - underlays - Wade
1959 64", 52# - WA749 - underlays - BowDoc
1959 64", 48# - WB504 - underlays - Trap
1959 64", 28# - WB934 - underlays - Bill
1959 64", 45# - WC020 - underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 53# - WC061 - no underlays - Jeremy
1959 64", 47# - WC365L - no underlays – Wade
1959 64", 50# - ?????? - no underlays – Wade
1959 66", 28# - XA844 - underlays - Wade
1959 66", 40# - XE403L - no underlays - seboomook
1959 66", 39# - XF090 – no underlays - Chuck
1959 66", 40# - XF877R - no underlays - Chuck
1959 68", 45# - YA367 - underlays - Wade
1959 68", 39# - YA456 - underlays - 2-26-08 Auction
1959 68”, 32# - YB499A - no underlays – Chuck
1959 68", 47# - YB626L - no underlays - Jeff
1959 68", 38# - YB965 - no underlays - Wade
1959 70", 40# - ZA110 - underlays - Chuck
1959 70", 38# - ?????? - underlays removed - Wade
On 1959 Kodiak Specials, factory underlays are a layer of black marcata that was added to the belly side of the last 4" of the limb tips of some bows as shown below. The term, "underlays", is collector jargon to describe this cosmetic feature in a single word. The purpose of this list is to determine the order and frequency of this feature.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/00UNDER.jpg)
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wow thats a lot-a 1959 Kodiak Specials..bd
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What is the underlay? Please explain.
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On a auction site, there is a K Special
1959 68", 39# - YA456 - underlays - *Bay 300296899825
-Simon
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Doc - Yes, that is a lot of 1959 Kodiak Specials. Hopefully we can double that number in a few days.
Jeff - Good question. Added a photograph and an explanation to clarify "underlays" to the above list of 1959 Kodiak Specials. Got any to add to the list ???
Simon - Thanks for the heads up on the auction. Just added it to the above list.
OK guys, now that everyone knows what underlays are, lets check those 1959 Kodiak Specials and post the data on this thread...
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Thanks Wade, you taught me something new.
Mine is a 1959, YB626, 68", 47# L no underlay
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Jeff - The real thanks for you learning something new should go to BowDoc for starting this thread and to Trap for asking the question.
Not having a definitive answer to Trap's question, the only logical thing to do was ask the question to everyone and record the data.
Trust me Jeff, I have probably learned more from this thread than anyone who has read it...
I believe when we begin to analyze this list, we will all learn far more than any of us originally expected...
Got the data for your bow recorded on the edited list posted above...
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One more thing booth the 59's here have black and white fiberglass tip overlays already done by Val.I would suggest to anyone wanting to shoot your 1959 Kodiak Special you should redo the original factory paper tip overlays.
OK now that we are looking at all these 1959 KS here's a little info I could use from you guy's and has nothing to do with the serial numbers.
Along the edges of the corewood just above or below the riser fadeouts its very common to see small cracks in the corewood.They are normally only in 1 of the 2-3 layers of corewood.Sometimes they are a bit hard to see.
Any chance you boy's would be willing to let me know how many if any of your 59 KS have these edge cracks...thanks dudes you all rock.Here's a pic of the back of the 1959 Kodiak Special 64" 52#..bd (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/valspec003.jpg)
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Wade, you missed mine in your list :)
Originally posted by Jeremy:
Here's mine
1959 64", 53# - WC061 - no underlays - Jeremy
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here's another 1959 Kodiak Special that's listed on gbay right now YA456 68" 39#...
I've been shooting the crap out of Vals 1959 64" 52#er keeping an eye on those edge cracks of which they have not gotten and worse and still look the same after 300-400 arrows.
I will say one thing (again) that 64" 59 is by no means smoken fast no way.
I was actually thinking a guy with good fast reflexes might even catch the arrow its so slow..But let me say this that is one nail driven bow right there.52# is just perfect draw weight for me and the 64" is super super smooth to draw and shoot.What a great bow...bd
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Thanks for the interesting info with pictures. Helped me. Information on '59 KS's I have & questions.
YA349 68" 45#@29" underlays 4 layers on tips
XE685 66" 47# L. L/H no underlays 3 layers on tips
XB054 66" 37# underlays 4 layers on tips
Why does 1 have 3 layers on tips?
Have a '60 KS ZA615 70" 41# no underlays 3 layers on tips like 1 of '59's
Where does KS Deluxe fit in this quest?
Hope you knowledgeable people do the same with pictures for '57 / '58 KS & '61 / 62' KS.
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Hello everyone,
I'm a fairly new member(first post)and have been just in awe of the great people in this group. I mostly read along and have been reading many of the past threads to catch up on a little history on here. So I felt I have something to contribute my 59 KS reads
XC 412 66"S #42 no underlays
Chris
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Jermey - Dennis - Chris - Thanks for posting the data on your 59 Kodiak Specials. Will get an updated list here shortly.
Dennis - The thickness and number of overlays on the tip will vary. I don't have a precise explanation for every possibility. Generally heavier bows have taller overlays. Overlays are a cosmetic feature that will vary greatly.
Overlays are not used as a criteria to date bows, except in rare instances (only 1 that I can think of) with consecutive year bows are identical and there was an advertised difference in the treatment of the tips.
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We are making progress guys....
We now have 29... some trends are beginning to show up... but this sample size is still too small for two variations of 5 different lengths of bows or 10 possible combinations...
Lets try to get at least 20 more added to this list... for all lengths.... For some lengths we have recorded only one example for a specific characteristic and for 70" we have not recorded any that did not originally have underlays...
This will be a very interesting discussion when we have a large enough sample size to analyze the data.
1959 62", 59# - VA105 - underlays - BowDoc
1959 62", 46# - VA 228 - no underlays - Chuck
1959 62", 50# - VA467L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 50# - VA558L - no underlays - Trap
1959 62", 55# - VA612L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 40-45# - 17HX12 - no underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 52# - WA139 - underlays - Wade
1959 64", 52# - WA749 - underlays - BowDoc
1959 64", 48# - WB504 - underlays - Trap
1959 64", 28# - WB934 - underlays - Bill
1959 64", 45# - WC020 - underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 53# - WC061 - no underlays - Jeremy
1959 64", 47# - WC365L - no underlays – Wade
1959 64", 50# - ?????? - no underlays – Wade
1959 66", 28# - XA844 - underlays - Wade
1959 66", 37# - XB05 - underlays - Dennis
1959 66", 42# - XC 412 - no underlays - Chris
1959 66", 40# - XE403L - no underlays - seboomook
1959 66", 47# - XE685 – no underlays Dennis
1959 66", 39# - XF090 – no underlays - Chuck
1959 66", 40# - XF877R - no underlays - Chuck
1959 68", 45#@29" - YA349 - underlays - Dennis
1959 68", 45# - YA367 - underlays - Wade
1959 68", 39# - YA456 - underlays - 2-26-08 Auction
1959 68”, 32# - YB499A - no underlays – Chuck
1959 68", 47# - YB626L - no underlays - Jeff
1959 68", 38# - YB965 - no underlays - Wade
1959 70", 40# - ZA110 - underlays - Chuck
1959 70", 38# - ?????? - underlays removed - Wade
On 1959 Kodiak Specials, factory underlays are a layer of black marcata that was added to the belly side of the last 4" of the limb tips of some bows as shown below. The term, "underlays", is collector jargon to describe this cosmetic feature in a single word. The purpose of this list is to determine the order and frequency of this feature.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/00UNDER.jpg)
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Wade.......change mine to no underlays.....Bill
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Bill... Did the underlays fall off in the past day or did you just clean your glasses ??? LOL Tell us the story...
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I had no idea we had so many 1959 KS in our little gang here.Nice work Wade looks good.
Bill I changed over to contact lens and reading glasses a few years ago myself...ok just kidding Wade started it with the glasses joke...bd
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Wade......not sure what happened there...I use a laptop and it might have been the keyboard not picking up the speed of these meat hooks passing by.........Bill..So my bow as no-underlays
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"Underlays removed". Still trying to figure out how and why someone would do that. Appears to me to be quite a task.
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Toad a very few may have fallen off do to glue failure.However for the most part removeing them is a pain in the neck.Lots and lots of sanding.Not sure to many guy's would have removed them unless one was missing like on Wade's bow.I removed the other to match..bd
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Bill - I only said that because you now have a bow that is out of the neat little sequence that was going with the serial numbers and the underlays...
I changed your bow on the list on the Kodiak Special thread.
Nothing ever surprises me with exceptions to any rules that are established with Bear bows.
BowDoc - Yes is it surprising how many 59 Specials are in the hands of so few collectors. It is apparent from the list that some of the guys like Chuck and Bjorn have been hording them for a while...
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New to collecting. I just recieved a beautiful 1959 KS, SER# WC554L, 64", #50. Is there any way of tracing them to the original owner?
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That's a nice looking bow. I think we were all watching it on the big auction site.
I doubt there's any chance of tracing Bear recurves back to the original owners based on serial numbers. Did you ask the seller if he knew any of the bow's history?
Trap
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It shouldn't be on that site anymore, it is in my living room. What kind of stringer should I use to string it? I'm dying to see it strung.
Thank you.
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rushlush - Very nice bow. You may not realize it, but the auction is still visible under completed auctions. The serial number of your bow was recorded on the other thread about Kodiak Specials...
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=002059;p=3
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Pretty sure the seller's father was selling Bear recurves and representing Bear Archery in 1959. He may be aware of the history surrounding that particular bow. It's a long shot, but probably your only chance at knowing who the original owner was.
As for stringing it. A cord type bow stringer with a sleeve on each end or a selway type stringer with a sleeve on one end and a rubber block that sits on top of the limb on the other end should do the trick.
Good Luck, Trap
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Trap thanks for info.
Jesus
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WOw! The 1959 Kodiak Special 62" 59 pounds - serial number VA105 that Bow doc speaks about is now in my collection!!!
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VA575 62" 51# no underlays
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again I gotta say small world of collecters out there ahh ? bowdoc