Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Wade Phillips on January 21, 2009, 01:20:00 AM
-
This all original 1940s Fred Bear Osage Take Down Deerslayer is branded “Bear Products by Grumley”. It is the only known all original Snake Skin Back Bear Grumley Take Down. The well concealed take down feature is a patented 3-piece Grenier Bow Hinge that operates with the solid function of a bank vault.
The good old days, photo left to right, Barney Grenier, Nels Grumley, Bill Loomis, Fred Bear; lunch while warming up around the fire, wood bows, wood arrows, leather boots, and wool clothing…
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/TG-GRUM2.JPG)
-
Have you seen any other snakeskin backed Grumleys besides Fred's Deerslayer in the Bear Museum ? "Nice bow" is an understatement.... "wow" does not do it justice either...a holy grail of collecting for sure.
-
Thanks for sharing.
Terry
-
Thats a cool bow right there.......bd
-
Incredible,it is a joy to follow you guys
-
Chuck,
I've got some photos of another Detroit Archer with a snakeskin backed Grumley bushbow.
-
Chuck - There are only two other Original Snake Skin Back Grumleys that I have documented. However, they are not Take Down bows… I have original 1940s photographs of those two Grumleys with their original owners shooting them.
I have also seen those two other Snake Skin Back Grumleys and photographed them. As unbelievable as it sounds, they both still survive to this day, although only one is still in original condition.
The two men who originally owned those two bows were Fred Bear (who else), and his 1940s employee, Gordon Campbell, also of Detroit. Yes I photographed and saw Fred's Snake Skin Deerslayer many times when the museum was in Grainesville.
John, Who is the other Detroit Archer you have photographs of with a Snake Skin Grumley Bushbow?
-
Hey Wade- one of Fred's favorite bows was a snakeskin backed "Deerslayer" 70# BY Grumley- what's the wt. on this one? Thanks for posting this, Grant
-
Ooops- should have read every post. GY
-
Grant - The 1930s and 1940s branded BEAR PRODUCTS BY GRUMLEY bows that I have were not marked in any other way, no weight, no length, no serial number. An anal retentive organized bow collector's nightmare. I'm not going to string and weight this one. Some later Grumley era Bears were marked in code.
Grant - About the weight. It is just a little thicker than another solid osage Deerslayer (1-piece) I have, which just happens to be one of Fred's personal bows as documented on a video tape of Floyd Eccleston. I would have to guess the weight of Fred's 1-piece Deerslayer to be somewhere around 65#, the Snake Skin Back T/D is probably a little heavier.
-
Fred Bear’s First Take Down Bow Patent
This really makes you appreciate all of the advances in Fred’s thoughts from his Takedown Bow patent application filed in 1945 to the one filed in 1968.
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/TG-FBTDG.JPG)
-
Thanks for the info Wade. There is a good picture of Fred shooting his rattlesnake backed static in Charlie Kroll's book. What was memorable about it was that the photo looked to have been shot in the late fifties or early sixties as all the troops were shooting more modern designs. Another thing came to my attention recently also that probably has no significance but I think its worth passing along to this group; according to an interview with an old Bear employee Fred actually insisted that his hunting bows be exactly 71#@ 28 even though he always claimed 65# for whatever reason. If you catch the old film of his Grizz hunt with Fess Parker he even states there that his bow is 70#. Just trivia I know, but its still kind of interesting, doncha think? Grant
-
Grant - Glad you enjoyed the information.
Also interesting to hear your account from employees that Fred insisted his hunting bows be exactly 71# at 28" even. I remember Fred telling Fess Parker that his bow was 70#... and have always wondered if Fred mis-spoke.
Even back in the Grumley days Fred's arrows were 28" even. I have one of his wooden 1945 Moose arrows, exactly 28". Fred inscribed his name and dated it. The arrows are also verified in many photographs of that hunt as well as his seldom seen and little known film, "Moose Diary".
-
Oh may what a difference from the first Fred T/D virus what we think of as a bear take down today with the socket and yoke system.I took this apart for pics.Hey I do have one spare screw for that latch if someone has a broken Grumley in need of the screw..bd (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/grumley002.jpg) (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/grumley001.jpg) (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/grumley003.jpg) (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/grumley004.jpg)
-
Thanks for sharing Wade. That's a terrific looking bow. Any idea why they didn't use the Grenier hinge more often?
Also, hard to tell by the photo but it looks like the characteristic black overlays on the tip weren't used?
Matt
-
I thought the hook latch was super cheap cost wise compaired to the hinge.
Wade would you have a pic or two of any Bear bows with the new moon type latch ???? thanks bd
-
Wade,
Not sure if you knew or not,but I believe your snake-skin Grumley originally belonged to a Dr. M.A. Young.I think he was a dentist.Obviously he could afford the best.
-
Matt - I only know of 2 BEAR PRODUCTS BY GRUMLEY bows that have the Grenier hinge. Fred had his own latch as shown in the patent and docs photographs. I'm sure Fred made more money and promoted his company if he used his own latch on his bow.
The Solid Wood Grumleys seldom had tip overlays. The later laminated wood Grumleys almost always had the black tip overlays that you ask about.
-
It is downright inspiring to listen in, and feel the passion you real collectors share.
I for one need an infusion like this on a periodic basis just to keep me in there as a fringe player.
Thanks gentlemen.
-
BowDoc - I have 2 or 3 variations of the New Moon bow latch, but none of them are on Grumleys. Actually the New Moon was a very nice T/D system. New Moon was from Denver, home of Fleetwood who did use New Moon Latches in their day. I have a circa 1949 woven glass back Fleetwood Bow with an original New Moon Latch. Certainly no Grumley but a fairly nice bow for its day.
Again, Bear wanted to use his own T/D latch as I'm am certain that he made more money using it rather than paying some other manufacturer for a different T/D system.
I agree, Bear's T/D Latch may have been the least expensive to produce given all other factors equal. However if a guy worked in a machine shop and made them on company time with company materials, with no overhead, the lunch box guy could be more than competitive with his out of pocket cost per unit. In the 1940s, competition and compensation was sometimes different than what many of us know today.
Lots of other cool old T/D systems from the 1940 era. Hey I have some T/D systems dating back to the 1870s patents. Have thought of a book titled "Take Down Bows 1871-1971". That would start with the old and finish up with Fred's last T/D patent...
-
BowDoc – You asked about New Moon Bow Latches…
Here are 3 different New Moon Bow Latches and the original fold out flyer for the New Moon. The best of this batch is the one on the bow. It is steel and solid. The other two are not steel, some kind of pot metal or aluminum. Top right may not be vintage item. Neat hinge, great idea. Lots of other functional hinges from the era, in addition to others mentioned, I would add the brass Zwickey.
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/NEWMOO.JPG)
-
Wade and Bowdoc- super info, thanks.Wade, Bowdoc had told me once before that every certifiable personal arrow of Mr. Bear's that he had seen was exactlt 28" as well. In 1968 Bear responded to a series of inquiries that was later published in Outdoor Life in which he again states that his bow weight was 65# and he drew 28" and used a 29" Bear Magnum 320 arrow. Owen Jeffery once told me that the bow Bear used for the elephant was actually 72# though I've seen weights of 70 and 75# listed. Photos taken of Bear at full draw always show his bow arm bent at the elbow similar to Howard Hill's form and 28" would be a pretty short draw for a lanky fellow of 6'1". Do you think this was influenced by his having begun archery with self-bows and less durable materials overall? I know this is slightly off the thread topic but it seemed a good time to avail myself of your historical knowledge regarding bow development and wondered if you thought the advent of longer drawlengths complicated the development of satisfactory takedown designs. Again, I'm sorry if this seems to be irrelevant to the thread. Grant
-
Wade,
Here's a crappy photo of a photo of the other snakeskin backed Grumley I mentioned.I had trouble getting the scan of the photo to load so I had to take a picture of the picture.The bow appears to be a Hunter model.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/HaroldwithGrumleyIII.jpg)
-
Nice photo John- look at the pattern on those skins! Wow. Grant
-
John – Nice photograph of the Snake Skin bow. The scene looks familiar, but who knows I’ve seen so many old photographs, but I can not place it in what’s left of my mind. Now that you have identified the bowman, you need to find the bow ! The best of luck to you in your search !!!
Are you certain that Snake Skin bow is a Bush Bow? It appears to have waaaaaaaay too much recurve to be a Bush Bow.
Compare the recurved ends in your photograph of the Snake Skin bow lying on the bear to this 100% original Grumley Bush Bow that is strung… If your eyes are half as good as mine, I believe you will see a very noticeable difference.
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/bushy.JPG)
-
Wade,
you must have read past my last post with the photo.I did state after looking at the enlarged photo that the bow appears to be a Hunter model.In the other pics I had looked at previously it appeared to be a bush bow.Wonder where it is.
-
Thanks dude,I love that New Moon latch.Was Bill Similrod casting some at one time ?
I have drawings or let me say a disign of a recurve I designed using a NM I bought from 3rivers type ? great latch however I mounted it into a Bear Polar to test my design and got wacked over the head because the screws pulled out at full draw.Man did I get schooled that day.That's really a super solid latching system.bd
-
John - Missed your correction about the Grumley Hunter Model. Glad to see we are on the same page now.
BowDoc - Did that rap on the head with the T/D limb nock any sense into you about putting in the correct length screws?
Years ago, I removed a screw from a Grumley T/D just to see how long the screws were that were used on the Bear Latch. I was dumbfounded to see how long they were. Somewhere, I have the photograph of the screw removed. OK, now you have written evidence that I admitted in writing to having a screw loose at one time.
Not sure if Bill was casting or machining the latches that he made. Either way, Bill's work is always first class.
-
Oh hell yes,I've actually seen some since by other installers drilled through the risers and had nuts on the back in a counter sunk hole to keep them from pulling out.They put rubber or leather grips on the bows to cover the nut holes.
There was some presure on the screws in the old polar I used.One other thing is when a hinge or latch system is installed its importend to make sure and compensate for the saw cut thickness too.That's one other thing I learn..bd
-
Grant – You ask some great questions and bring up some interesting points.
I would like to talk about the different weights you mentioned for Fred Elephant bow, not from any first hand knowledge of the bow, but rather as a possible or partial explanation of how numbers sometimes are not consistent. How could anyone remember the exact weight to the pound of every bow they owned and shot, especially Fred Bear who had dozens of personal bows in his lifetime. With Fred’s special customized shelf, does any believe that his customized bows were made and remade or altered until the exact weight to the pound was achieved every time. Maybe that was the goal, but were all bows weighted in precisely the same scientific manner from bow to bow to bow, on the same scale by the same person every time? There may be a bit of wiggle room for a pound or two here just for human error and differences.
When many people are asked questions, hours later, not to mention years later, they do not remember the precise details. I can site dozens of examples of manufacturers telling me they did not make a specific item, but when I hand them an example or an advertisement for what they just said they never made, they quickly “remember” and change their story. Most old bowmen are happy to talk with you about the old days. If you ask them a question in a manner to lead them to a specific answer they may respond more to please you, rather than to tax their own memory to find an answer that may be conflicting, or disappoint you with the more accurate response “I can not remember”. I know first hand that many people have been misquoted in print. I don’t know of any human who has ever typed numbers, who claims they have never typed an incorrect number key.
The 72# vs 70# vs 75# may be a mystery to you that you will never solve. Frankly, I hope you do solve it, but without written evidence from the era as to why there is a discrepancy, speculation by some may be more incorrect than the 2, 3 or 5# difference. In seeing your thorough approach to things, I’m certain you will gain more insight. I’m sorry I could not be of any specific help.
Perhaps someday you will be able to actually weigh the bow yourself, and solve the mystery.
An interesting note about typing mistakes, as they relate to Fred…. I have a few of Fred’s personally typed notes to his dear friend, and later fellow Archery Hall of Fame Member, Floyd Eccleston of Michigan. The notes are very short and of course they were typed on an old style typewriter. Fred made several typing mistakes on these notes. I’ve often wondered why Fred did not simply write the notes longhand. In the case of these notes, when the reader goes to a keyboard it is easy to see how Fred misplaced his finger, and put the correct letter in each of the misspelled words… Do you remember what it was like before spell check ???
-
Thanks for responding Wade; you make some great points. I've already reached the time in my life when the data gets a bit scrambled,lol. My real interest in certain conflicting details is really more about the aura of mystery they help create. I see little real significance in the weight of the bow itself but find it very interesting that depending upon the sources one cites, he or she could say with conviction that ____ was true while another who referenced a different source could argue otherwise with the same conviction. When I taught Lit I would identify this as "epistemological doubt" that added an additional element to a narrative and provided a reader with yet another thing to puzzle through. In a way, the myseries help keep the legends going strong- and I like that. Grant
-
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1603.jpg)
This was Gordon Campbell's Grumley
-
Bill - This is what Gordon Campbell's Snake Skin Back Grumley looked like when he owned it. Ever seen a Grumley shot from this position before?
Just wish all of Gordon's bows were still in the same condition shown in this photograph...
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/GRODONS.jpg)
-
Hey Wade........Thats sweet....you'll have to send that pic along with the other......Bill
-
Fred Bear shooting his Snake Skin Back Grumley Deerslayer. The unique markings of this Snake Skin make it easy to identify Fred’s Bow.
This photograph is part of a 1944 full page Newspaper article that is now encased under glass in a sealed frame, thus the poor photograph with reflections…
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/FRED-SNK.JPG)
-
Great photos Wade; can I come to your house and play with your toys,lol? Thanks for sharing this with us, there can't be much of this stuff left.
Grant
-
Grant - I'm sure there is still a lot of the great old stuff that has yet to be found by collectors. At the end of each year, I am always amazed to look back at what I have learned and what I acquired.
For the active collector it is never ending.
If you are going to be in the area give us a call and plan to stop in and spend at least a day. We can always find a spare bed or couch somewhere under this archery stuff.
Forgot to mention the text of the article states Fred's Snake Skin Back bow is 70#. Thought you would want to record that weight if you did not have it already...
-
Thanks Wade- one of these days for sure. That is the weight I'd always heard attributed to that bow as well as most of the bows mentioned in early articles written by Bear, such as the moose hunts with Knickerbacker and his early cronies. I'm not sure that I find the wts. significant beyond the challenge these numbers -including the 50# TD limbs he sometimes used at Grousehaven- present to the stock answer of 65# that is usually given when someone asked the question "What weight bow did Fred Bear shoot?" I have seven bows that I hunt with and though they are all somewhat in the same ballpark weightwise, no two are precisely the same. Lord knows how wide the variance would be if I had a factory,lol. Keep posting please- as Bowdoc says= YouDaMan. Grant