Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: Shaun on January 19, 2009, 08:22:00 AM
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No I don't own one (yet). Why is this such a collectible bow? I read a couple posts where it was mentioned that it was one of Fred's favorites. Are there other reasons?
I do think it is a beautiful design. Is the main difference between this and the few years before the exotic woods in the riser or were there other changes?
Is the riser made from three 1/2" layers with purple heart sandwiched between rose wood or walnut?
I am considering trying a reproduction. I believe there are some good bowyers out there who make repro's but I would like to play with the idea in my home shop.
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Shaun, you are on the right track. 1959 was a landmark year for Bear Archery in many ways.
It was the first year for exotic woods for the main part of the bow riser. There was some trim on earlier bows, but the first for a rosewood riser.
First year for the Bear coin in the riser. This would become an identifying characteristic of Bear bows.
First year for riser overlays.
First year for a color catalog.
The 59 Kodiak is plain and simple a great shooting bow. The strung profile is graceful and beautiful!
The most common configuration is Brazilian rosewood with a purple heart I beam. Maple and rosewood I beams are more scarce.
I'm sure others with much more to say and greater knowledge will chime in. Please keep us posted on your progress toward building some reproductions! CKruse
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CKruse,
I think you pretty much summed it up.It's such a beautiful bow,even after 50 years.
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Shaun I know there are some super good bowyers out there that most likely make a better stronger faster shooting smoother drawing more modern materials all the good stuff.No dout about it reproduction of 1959's....But man it just ai'nt the same.I've had around 15-20 reproductions over the last 20 years....Please note I said I've had....I only got one repro now and it was a trade.I personaly for the cost of a repro would search for an original and you may even find a 1959 for far less then some of the repro's sell for.Just some food for thought...bd
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Shaun – You asked a very good question… Why is the 1959 Kodiak such a collectible bow?
While the 1959 Kodiak has become a popular collectible bow because of its graceful lines, the elegant beauty of its wood and glass colors, and its solid performance, other important factors are often overlooked for its well deserved popularity.
Historically, the 1959 Kodiak gained great fame for being used by most of the bowmen on the 1959 Little Delta Hunt on which several record animals were taken. I don’t know of a more popular or better book printed in the past 20 years than Glenn St. Charles’ “Bows on the Little Delta.” Any bowmen who has seen photographs from the 1959 Little Delta Hunt and/or read about that hunt, has probably had thoughts or aspirations to shoot a 1959 Kodiak.
Perhaps the most important factor that makes the 1959 Kodiak as popular as it is today, is the fact that the most common length and riser configuration of the 1959 Kodiak was made in large numbers and is readily available to today’s collector/hunter/shooter at moderate prices. The more bowmen who own and shoot 1959 Kodiaks, the more it gets talked about, and the more newer collectors want to try one. Not many Bear Bow collectors (except myself) will make a disparaging remark about 1959 Kodiaks.
To me the 1959 Kodiak is as much the true classic of Bear Archery Bows as my old 1957 Chevy Convertible is to the world of classic cars.
Another reason the 1959 Kodiak is so collectible is that so many different variations of it are in existence… Some of these variations are extremely rare, so serious collectors find it challenging (and can go crazy and/or bankrupt) trying to acquire every variation…
First the 1959 Kodiak was made in three lengths, 56”, 60”, and 64”... Then there are three different woods that were used in the center of the “I” beam, Dark Rosewood, Maple, and Purple Heart. And, there are also three noticeably different variations in the shape of the sight windows, each of which was advertised. However, not all of the 3x3x3 variations were produced.
Although the 1960 Kodiak might be called the slightly uglier, nearly identical twin sister of the 1959 Kodiak, in original condition, the 1960 is more reliable and performs a little better.
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I dont think i could add much that has not allready been said.I have had 2.A 60 inch and 64 incher.Both with rosewood I beams.Just a beautful bow.Sleek and trim with narrow limbs and sweet shooting qualities.
I currantly shoot a 64 incher and love it.Its the quietest recurve I have shot no doubt and very smooth and accurate.
I have had three 60 inch reproductions and prefer the originals personelly.
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Wade, recently we saw a Bubinga sight window 59 Kodiak on the big auction site. Obviously, Bubinga was not used often and who knows, maybe only once.
What other really "odd ducks" are out there as far as 59s go?
59s outside the 3X3X3 variations?
Trap
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Shaun, an unmentioned trait of the 59 that really does it for me is the brown glass back and the autumn or burnt orange belly.
The bows remind me of autumn every time I look at them.
Trap
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Natske son's 1959 is also a bubinga ibean.I have only seen that one and one other plus the gbay bow for a total of 3...bd
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300287819072 59 kodiak 56" 45# on the bay
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SES- I think with the black and white overlays that the bow is a 1960 Kodiak that you are referring to. Too bad it has that compass in the handle.
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thanks being a newbe i dont know one from the other. it said 59 that what so good about this forum thanks again
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Copper coin 1960...but that does not look like a standard Bear type compass..to bad...bd
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Chuck - Now what's wrong with sticking a compass in a 1959 Kodiak ?... John wants to put one in a 1959 Kodiak, but it's a Maple Sight Window...
You don't really think adding that compass effects the value do you? Hey the Kodiak SES mentioned sold for $351, oh, yes we are not talking about the same year as it is a 1960... However it is the same year, same length 56" and same weight 45# that sold the previous month for $1,200 with no compass...
Not that is is precisely an identical comparison, being one year off, but maybe you better point out that comparison to John...
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OOOOOOOOpsie, that 56" 1960 has just got started. We'll have to wait so see if the compass effects the interest or value... Wade
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Well, I just got my foot out of my mouth long enough to get a snipe on that 56"...
Should be interesting...
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as a collector, I like the bows I invest in to be as original as possible. I am not a fan of drilling any holes in any of my bows if I can help it. Granted, bows I have that are used for shooting/hunting purposes are sometimes modified to accomodate quivers, compasses, etc.
I am not interested in this bow, have at it guys.
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for the record, I think adding compasses or quiver bushings do de-value a bow as far re-sale value is concerned. Just like I believe a refinished bow is worth less than an all original bow. However refinishing is sometimes required to rescue a bow in distress to bring it back to it's former glory . I think there is a difference between "restoring" a bow back to as original as possible condition compared to "refinishing" a bow back to like new condition. good luck
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Trap – Not sure what you call an "odd duck". Guess a reversed color glass from back to belly, brown and orange, would be what I would call an “odd duck”…
I have both Maple Sight Window and Rosewood Sight Window 1959 Kodiaks without coin holes ever being drilled in them… how would you classify them, as legitimate collectibles or “odd ducks” ?
We should probably be a little more definitive than “odd duck” and try to create and define some easily understandable terms. Here is an initial draft to define variations of bows made on the same form…
“Documented Variation” – appeared in print during the era produced (the 3x3x3 mentioned earlier, etc.)
“Un-Documented Variation” – a difference that can not be changed (number of riser laminations, etc.)
“Cosmetic Variation” – things that are easily changed such as coins, serial numbers, tip overlays, anything added to or removed from standard model, etc.)
We’ll have to define each of these in detail…
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Wade, of the two variations you mentioned without coins, which do you believe is the earliest and why? Just picking your brain and experience a bit! CKruse
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CKruse- The rosewood site window '59 is the earliest variation in my opinion. Bear had the dark rosewood on hand in 1958 that they were using on the '58 Kodiak Specials. Here is a pic of the 1958 Kodiak Specials with the dark rosewood site windows:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/minnesota080.jpg)
then there this 1959 Kodiak from my collection, no coin, rosewood site window serial # EL963 64" 40#:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/minnesota070.jpg)
Now note my 64" 1958 Kodiak is serial number EG035. Maybe this dispells the theory that the first 64 inch '59 Kodiak was DA001.
Soo, I believe this to be the earliest version of the '59 Kodiak.
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Shaun – From our posts here, I’m certain you are beginning to see part of the real mystique behind the 1959 Kodiak… lots of variations, and no standard definitions or methods of categorization.
CKruse – I try to deal first in facts, that is written documentation from the era, then look at the artifacts that are known to exist, then draw logical conclusions. The 1959 Bear Archery Catalog shows several Rosewood Sight Window 1959 Kodiaks. I don’t see any Maple Sight Window Kodiaks in the 1959 Bear Archery Catalog. Do you see any Maple Sight Windows? Both mentioned bows are known exist… Now I will answer your questions with questions… What would your logical conclusion be as to the earliest? Do you also have your answer as to WHY… If not let me know…
CKruse – Not trying to be a smart character, but just trying to illustrate how easy it is for collectors to draw logical conclusions. Rather than accept some folk lore, I suggest you first go to the facts and then be logical.
I would like to point out that there are several other little tidbits in the 1959 Bear Archery Catalog that totally and completely turn some of the presently accepted 1959 folk lure completely upside down.
Bear catalogs are never 100% accurate, but when bounced off the actual artifacts in existence, they offer invaluable insight.
Reading auction text, or reading undocumented or un-researched postings should never be a substitute for doing legitimate research and getting a formal education.
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Chuck – Thank you so much for your post of January 19, 2009 10:52 PM, with the 1958 and 1959 photographs and explaining the sequence of the serial numbers. Like the older brother who teaches the younger, I am proud that I taught you well.
While I personally place little store in “Cosmetic Features or Varations” like serial numbers, many original serial numbers, such as in this example, only substantiate the legitimate facts.
If there are any readers of this thread who believe that another 1959 Kodiak preceded the production of the Rosewood Sight Window, please offer your evidence… We are always enthusiastic to learn additional facts…
Most respectfully, Wade
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Wade, I guess most of us would qualify as "dabblers", instead of true collectors! No offense taken. I just haven't been exposed to the number of bows that some here have. I too believe the rosewood sight window predates the maple. I acquired this nice example last summer. It is BA031, no coin, rosewood I beam. The pictures are not the best, but it's all original save for a new feather rest. CKruse
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1816.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1818.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1817.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1821.jpg)
(http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b120/cdkruse/100_1819.jpg)
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Also, "Reading auction text, or reading undocumented or un-researched postings should never be a substitute for doing legitimate research and getting a formal education."
AMEN! Too much of what we take to be fact is unrefined BULL$H*+ carelessly spewed by various factions. Too True! CKruse
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I have been learning much from this thread. Thanks all and keep the dialog going as long as it helps us all.
It looks like I may have to obtain one of these bows for a pattern to be able to try a repro. Not trying to better the originals, would just like to try my hand at making one to learn from the process. Even a wall hanger with irreparable damage could work as a template.
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Shaun - If you want a 1959 Kodiak to use as a pattern, I have a few damaged 1959 Kodiaks and would be happy to loan one of them to you. I've been thinking about making a lamp or stool using these damaged bows. Most need to be refinished, but I don't want inconvenience one of the professionals with these bows. My junkers are all 60". Let me know the weight you are shooting for. Best regards, Wade
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CKruse - Your BA031 Rosewood Sight Window is a real looker for an all original. Thanks for sharing your photographs.
I try not to "believe" any thing about collectibles that is not based in facts. I especially enjoyed your comments following the word AMEN! …
I'm more than pleased if you found anything in my ramblings to be useful.
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Trap – Judging from the photograph of 5 bows under your name, I assumed you were fairly serious about collecting old bears. I have no problem with the term "odd duck", as long as you have defined it.
It appears from your definition, that “odd duck” is interchangeable with the term “un-documented variation”. I’m cool with using those terms interchangeably, if you are… I only use the term “un-documented variation” as it seems to be self-explanatory.
Like you, I would try to speak with “Joe Six-Pack” on whatever terms he is comfortable with. Additionally, I would always have at least one extra unopened case of his favorite beer in my garage refrigerator, to take to our next bow/cash exchanging rendezvous.
Trap – You stated “While different than a "documented variation" I would still classify the "odd ducks" as legitimate collectibles and maybe even more desirable.”
As you know, each collector must determine their own field of interest, priories, and what they consider desirable, valuable or legitimately collectible. Collectors thrive on owning rare or one of a kind items, so your observation that “odd ducks may be even more desirable”, does not surprise me at all.
Hypothetical example – Lets say that you find an “undocumented variation” or “odd duck" of the 1959 Kodiak that is the only example of its kind known to collectors. Because I am a Certified Appraiser of Archery Collectibles, you pay me a minimal fee to write a certified appraisal and place a value on your bow for insurance purposes….
Three months later, I find a photograph in previously unfound Bear Archery Documentation from the era that shows a 1959 Kodiak, which has the same undocumented characteristics of your previously undocumented bow… Now your bow becomes a “documented variation” with a pedigree that establishes legitimacy.
I contact you and state, that your previously “un-documented variation” has now been identified as a legitimate “documented variation” with a greatly increased value. At no additional expense to you, I send you an updated certified appraisal in which the value of the 1959 Kodiak greatly increases.
You put both appraisals in your safety deposit box in the bank. The next day, your house catches fire, but fortunately, the only thing burned beyond salvaging, is this 1959 Kodiak. Your insurance policy states that you must prove the value of the loss in order to collect.
Which appraisal do you present to your insurance agent?
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LOL Wade, Point well taken, The "Odd duck" or "Un-documented" appraisal probably wouldnt get me much of an insurance settlement.
Thank You Sir for the perspective, Okay now back to my question. Let me try to phrase this correctly. I feel like I'm in class and it's late, but hey I dig learning.
What other "documented variations" of the 59 Kodiak are out there pertaining to "I" Beams? Are there any others besides the Purple Heart, Maple, Dark Rosewood and Bubinga? I wasnt aware of the Bubinga "I" Beam untill Len listed his and had not even heard of it.
Also, what's your theory on why these variations occurred? Experimentation? Special Order? A mistake? A Joe 6-Pack employee that extended his partying a little too much the night before he glued up risers?
I find the bows with variations really neat. The rare wood combinations, "wrong" glass colors, butcherblock "I" Beams and risers, etc etc.
Trap
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I remember hearing that there were production problems with the early '59 Kodiaks. Specifically the problem was stress cracks in the limbs. Bear was telling dealers to destroy the bows that were stressed, making the early models even more scarce.
Maybe Wade could expand on this. I am referring to the bow that Glenn St Charles sanded the serial numbers off...
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The earliest 1959 Kodiaks also have black lettering rather then gold.The gold came shortly after 1959 because the black did not show well on the rosewood...go figure huh ? and this color tip combo...... (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/59tips001.jpg)bd
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yes Doc, I agree about the black lettering. Under magnification you can see my bow had black lettering and then they went over it with gold paint, very cool.
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Trap – I am pleased that you can appreciate the perspective of how an Ugly Duckling can become Duck a l’Orange.
Sorry to report that I know of no other documented variations of the I-Beam 1959 Kodiak, although others may well exist.
I know of one person who told me he “thought” he had an I-Beam of another wood, but that report is unconfirmed. As with appraisals, if I do not see the item in person, I can not authenticate it nor appraise it.
I will not perpetuate the misinformation that someone thought they had a Kodiak I-Beam that was made using partially fossilized cartilage from the impacted canine tooth of a castrated Sabretooth Tiger and that the limbs were backed with unborn calfskin of a prehistoric albino 8-legged, near sighted, bi-polar, walrus with a harelip.
Trap – In answer to your question, “Also, what's your theory on why these variations occurred?”
Sorry, but I have no theory as to why these variations occurred and know of no Bear Archery documentation from the era that explains the “why”.
I am a pretty boring guy, and try to deal only in facts. The items exist, we collect them and record their identifying characteristics and document the recorded facts about them from the era. We shoot the heck out them, run over the hills and kill a lot of animals with these old Kodiaks.
I’ll leave the speculation and creative writing about Kodiaks to the conspiracy theorists, science fiction writers, and professional storytellers.
Yes, I too love the Butcher Block "I" Beams. Do you have a 64”, Short Sight Window, Butcher Block "I" Beam 1960 Kodiak ?
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Wade, to answer your last question, nope, sure don't but I'd like to see one. I have a butcherblock "I" Beam Kodiak Deluxe but don't consider it very rare.
I think the light colored Bubinga could have easily been mistaken for Maple in a stack of lumber, but who knows.
Are there any records that document how many 59 Kodiaks were made?
Trap
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Trap – There are a lot of butcherblock "I" Beams in the DeLuxe bows. The DeLuxe is another story all unto itself.
There may have been records kept of the total number of each model bow made at Bear, but I don’t know of their existence. Most factories track their output in one or more of a number of different ways, e.g., production each day, production per employee, units shipped to each dealer, etc. If an auditor had all the internal paperwork Bear ever created, they could probably make a pretty accurate calculation.
A simpler, faster and likely much less accurate method that some speculator might use would be to pull some numbers out of his posterior using serial numbers. I personally don’t place much store in every serial number on every bow because anything could have been written on any bow. Some collectors live and die by serial numbers, but they have probably never owned any mis-marked bows. I own many bows that are mis-marked so know first hand that many mistakes were made. However, for some years, Bear serial numbers can give you a good idea about the bow.
If we talk just about the 60” 1959 Kodiak bows and their serial numbers… of the several dozen I have owned over the years, with very few exceptions, nearly all have a serial number that begins with a “B”, which is letter Bear used to designate a 60” Kodiak in 1959. Remember these first letter designations were not the same every year and sometimes changed mid-year or were completely abandoned to not even start with two letters.
If we accept the designation of the second letter as being the first in the series, and being followed by 001 as being the first bow of the A series, from BA001 to BA999 there would be 999 bows. The highest second letter on any 1959 Kodiak that I own, is BF825. If the guess-tamation is for each of series, BA, BB, BC, BD, BE, BF, that 999 bows were produced, within those 6 letter series, there would be 5,994.
Now, make no mistake, I would not hesitate to bet a large sum of money that this ‘calculation” based on assumptions is not accurate to within the margin of error of +/- one bow, of 5,994 for the total number of Bear Kodiaks produced in 1959.
I’m not offering this as my idea, but rather as an idea that has been discussed by “speculators”. To me the total number of 1959 Kodiaks that were made is unimportant. The important number is how many have survived in collectible or shootable or restorable condition?
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John – In your post you state, “…I will most likely not sell this Kodiak but I understand if I do I may not get back what I have into it.…”
Hey, if you do not sell the Kodiak, are you planning to take it with you when you check out of this world? And if you do take it with you, what do you plan to do with it when you get to your final destination? (just joking)
John – Seriously, let’s face the facts, we are all mortal, if we do not sell these bow while we are alive, eventually our heirs will sell them. You have already bought and sold enough bows to know that we are only the temporary caretakers of these artifacts while enjoying our short stay here on this earth.
If we accept the reality that your Maple Sight Window will be sold at some point, we can speculate as to what its value might be depending on what is done to it from this point forward.
If we accept that values will not change due to fluctuations in the economy, large numbers of bows surfacing, and that collecting interests will remain stable, logically the value would change according to what is done to the bow…
1 – If preserved in its present condition. Value should remain stable.
2 – Restore to more original condition to make it more of a collectible by having original multi-layer tips put back on the bow. See BowDoc’s photo of old tip overlays. Value may increase slightly because it may appeal to greater number of collectors.
3 – Make into a shooter by a professional, glue up cracks, holes, install glass tip overlays, refinish entire surface, re-grip. As a restored shooter, its value may increase slightly, but don’t count on recovering all of your expenses for professional work.
4 – Same as #3, but have a factory quiver bushing professionally installed and hole sealed. Value should not change at all. Desirably may increase slightly. Once you poke the 2 spike holes from the quiver in the leather grip, you may decrease the value slightly. Having a factory quiver bushing is desirable; however, having the leather molested around a factory quiver bushing is not desirable.
5 – Same as #4, but also install a compass below the serial numbers as you suggested earlier. A number of collectors/shooters/hunters who like restored bows to be as close to original as possible, will see the compass installed low in the riser location as being undesirable and will not even be interested in purchasing the bow (myself included). If a collector wants it as an original, there is no way to fill the compass hole…
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Some great points Wade.If I don't sell it in my lifetime,I figured my son may want to become the caretaker for awhile,maybe not.But it won't matter then,at least not to me.I agree 100% with all 5 of your obsevations.
1.I could leave it as is,tips and stress cracks intact.But I want to shoot it.
2.I could restore it to more original condition with original multi-layer tips.It would definitely be more desireable to a collector,myself included,but I would be leary to shoot it.But I want to shoot it.
3.Have it professionally restored,glue up the cracks,glass tip overlays,re-spray,re-grip.At this point I think the bow is less desireable as a collector.At least to me.But I could shoot it.
4.A factory installed bushing wouldn't hurt the value at all in my opinion either and as you said,may even increase it a little bit.I personally don't mind the two little holes in the leather if a quiver was used,but I do hate to see four holes from it being installed 180 degrees the wrong way too and the circular gouges from somebody doing doughnuts with the quiver. We all like factory quiver bushings in our Kodiaks don't we?I could still shoot it.
5.This is where I guess I'm having my hardest decision.As you said,once that compass hole is drilled,there's no turning back.I have never drilled a hole of any size for any reason in any of my bows.This is a tough one.Installing it would make it the ultimate hunting bow,at least for me.That's perfect for the here and now.How people view the bow after it's done and after I'm gone,who knows.I imagine somebody would still like the bow,compass and all,and want to own it.How much would it be worth?Whatever somebody is willing to pay for it.Like every other collectible.But I could still shoot it(hopefully!)
I've seen alot worse damage done to a bow.Ask Rich about my 1960 Kodiak he's fixing for me.
I guess I'll just have to think about it some more.But you've brought up some good points to consider.Thanks for sharing them.
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I'm hoping you do the complete package and absolutely hate it and decide to sell it for half of what it's worth to me. ;)
I would still like it. Sounds like function and beauty all rolled into one to me. I'd install it low on the riser just like the guy with the Fedora, and the High Tops. :bigsmyl:
In all honesty, I doubt I'd install the compass if the bow were mine, but it's not mine, it's yours and I think your mind is made up. I can't wait to see pics.
Trap
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Trap,
I'm still not 100% sure if I'll do both.I need to do some more thinking on this one before I put the drill bit to her.I didn't think this would be such a hard decision but this is a maple sight window we're talking about.Argghhhh.Pics when it's done no matter what I do.
I just bought some nice,vintage Bear woodies with Bear razorheads from Rich so the arrow part of the equation is done.
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I've never seen any 4 diget serial numbers on 1959's...some collecters have mentioned...lets just say BA001 to BA??? were 60" built in maybe Jan.of 59.BB001 to BB??? feb of 59...bla bla bla.The only record of production I've ever heard of anyone seeing was StCharles told me he saw the records for 1958 and Bear Archery produced around 12,500 total bows.If 30% were Kodiaks that would fit very near with Wade's figures or somewhere in there + or -.They increased production by at least 10% every year or there abouts...I was thinking we pool all our funds and just start buying em all.bd
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I'm doing all I can at the moment Doc with the limited resources available. :readit: ;)
Trap
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BowDoc – I have never seen any 4 digit serial numbers either, that is for 1959 Kodiaks.
They are usually 5 digits consisting of two letters and 3 numbers; but sometimes these 5 digits are followed by another letter. That trailing letter has always been a mystery to me. Got any ideas on that one???
With all the 1959 Kodiaks you get for refinish, I'm certain that you have seen far more serial numbers than I have.
Have you recorded any 60" 1959 Kodiaks with higher letters than "F" as the second letter? The highest I have is BF825.
I have some BGxxx and BHxxx, BJxxx, but these are all 1960 Kodiaks. Boy, some later 1960 serial numbers are hieroglyphics to me… Anyone have them figured out?
I don’t take any individual serial number too seriously, as anyone could have made a mistake on a series of hand written letters and numbers.
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wade I have a 59 that rich redid it was BG-
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Wade,
I have a pic of a 60" '59 Kodiak serial # BG058. I don't remember the owner's name :knothead: but did keep a few pics of the bow in my files.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/stickbow98/59Kodiak5.jpg)
>>--Ron--<>
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Ron - Nice photograph... Like the wood below the grip. What color are the overlays?
What is the wood in the sight window?
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Wade- No pic of overlays. Nice pic of sight window however, looks like Rosewood.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/stickbow98/59Kodiak2.jpg)
Quiver side
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/stickbow98/59Kodiak3.jpg)
>>--Ron--<>
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Good looking bow Ron.
On the single letter like Ron's bow has the F. They were sometimes above or below the other info.One on gbay now is at the end of the serial number rather then below.All the info ie serial number length and draw weight are writen under the leather grips on the riser wood.The F appears under there as well with a different number which may have been a work order number some are like 13507-20483 whatever.
If you check other year kodiaks mostly before 1959 a good number of bows have the letter A-P-F or L's were on lots of 59's.Also a couple other letters I will have to look up.I was told once by Bill Stewart for whatever thats worth.The single letter was the inspecter or scaleman at that time and it was his inital.Kind of makes since maybe maybe not..
I screwed up too,I meant 4 numbers rather then letters and numbers.Maybe something like BA5000,I've never seen any 4 numbered 1959's.
That darn 1960 will be a whole other chapter in our book.bd
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Ron - Thanks for the additional photographs. The finish gets so discolored sometimes that purple heart gets dark and looks almost like rosewood. Hard to say from photographs as the real colors can look so different in a digital image.
Can not see any riser overlays at all but it is a bad angle. Years ago I had a very nice 100% all factory original LH 1959 Kodiak that did not have any riser overlays... always a conversation piece among collectors... guess you could call it the "Ugly Ducking" of 59 Kodiaks... Being the true numbskull I am, I traded it off when I made the very "wise" decision to get rid of my LH bows.
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Wade I had a crack at buying that one off Steve about 1-2 years ago maybe somewhere in there.I just did not have the dough at the time and have not seen hide nore hair of the no riser overlay 1959.Which just to stir the pot a little I swear that bow was a brown and orange fiberglass rosewood risered 1958 more then a 1959 form ??? Did you ever have chance to lay it beside a 1958 before you traded ???? bd
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Abear - Thanks for mentioning the BG- 1959 Kodiak that Rich redid for you.
Not wanting to be nosy, but just wondering what the numbers are of your refinished BG-
Guess we would like to get a better idea of when the 1959 Kodiak serial numbers ended...
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Wade,
I found one more of this bow w/just a "hint" of the riser overlay showing...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/stickbow98/59Kodiak1.jpg)
-best I can do.
>>--Ron--<>
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BowDoc - Now you are making me feel really sick. Suggesting the "Ugly Ducking" might have had a rosewood sight window. I think I got rid of that bow right before I bought my first digit camera which was in 1998, over 10 years ago now, boy time flies. I don't believe that I even have a photograph of the "no riser overlay" 1959 Kodiak. I'm feeling even sicker now... Even worse its just more 59 Kodiak Folk Lore with no photographs...
I did have the "Ugly Ducking" displayed on a rack with several other 1959 and 1960 Kodiaks and surely would have noticed if the riser shape was different. If I find out that sight window was rosewood, I may kill myself. At least that would spare any possibility of a murder charge against John's wife...
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I remember the original thread that bow was pictured in. I started the thread right after I got my first 59. I tried pulling it up in a search and found it, but it won't open- it seems to have been deleted by the moderators or something. I recall this being a bow that the owner's uncle or grandpa gave them. He put it on after I showed pics in the thread of my first 59 (which I still own). CKruse
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Wow Rich about 80% of the guy's I ever visited with or interviewed have long since left the building.Most of them were prior to 1966.The later bowyers like Owen and several others are still around.
Robert is still alive and was there during the move from Grayling.Robert is Glenn's brother in law and Robert told me that when they moved to Gainsville.They hauled dump trucks of stuff to the land fill.Bows and bow forms..
One other former bowyer whom swiped all the stuff from Bear Archery when esclade purchased the company??? That was the stuff Frack Scott was so despertly trying to find before his passing.That jerkwad is still kicking.But not many from the 50's and 60's.Most were old guy's back then...bd
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Guys I think Marv Groener (spelling)is still alive and he might know something about this. He's the guy that actually built the later 60s risers (including the takedown like Wade had up recently) for Fred even though Owen was the Master Bowyer at the time. He left Bear when they were bought by Kidde and maybe before but he was Fred's "handle" man for a while. Couple of other old timers left who still live in Grayling. Grant
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yeah.you guy's are eyeball'n the kodiak my uncle gave me bout 4 year's ago!! he bought it when he got discharged from the U.S. MARINES in oct.1959.all that you see in the pics he got for $59.50=a package deal from a long ago closed archery shop near PGH.PA.that site window has driven me nuts.i know for sure it's not maple or purpleheart.i thought maybe bubinga or rosewood.whatever,it really set's it off.i will try&post better pics.
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Are the 60" bows more desirable ($) than the others lengths? What did Papa shoot for length?
Sounds like the center lam of the riser makes a big difference mostly because of the numbers made. Lots of purple heart, some maple, very few other woods, is that correct?
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It is sometimes vary diffecult to I.D those ibeams because of the oxidation of the wood and finish.In some cases with purple heart you may have to remove a few milameter of wood to get the purple color to come back.
Yes Shuan the 60" is the more desirable with most collecters and shooter.Fred shot a 60".Again those ibeams could be several different woods.bd
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Bowdoc,
Not to hijack the thread but I left you a private message.John
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To me there is a difference shooting the 60 and 64" inch '59 and '60 Kodiaks. The shorter length is more responsive at any draw, and the longer limb of the 64" bow should store more energy but does not seem to do that.
If you have an opportunity to get a good 60" bow, that's the one.
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Here is an all original '59 Kodiak 60", 40# with serial number I-JX-15 , still has the red and white overlays and purple heart site window. Possibly one of the latter models produced by Bear. It has the second generation flat bear coin found in most 1960 Kodiaks, not the original copper flat bear coin which is common in 1959 Kodiaks.
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/114.jpg)
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/115.jpg)
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I had two 60 inchers and currantly got a 64 incher.They do feel different to me.The 60 incher is said to be faster.I dont that at all.
The 64 incher is smoother on the draw and shoots very very quiet.Its been more accurate for me as well.I do have a longer draw length though and it just fits me better.I am happy with its cast of an arrow.Its plenty quick for me at my 29 inch plus draw.I shoot a 10 and a 12 strand string on it with paddes loops.Its a sweetheart!!!
60 inch bows are favored in general by most archers for thier shorter length.The 64 inch version does seem to be more rare?I have not seen near as many up for sale.
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Chuck thats a great bow right there.I love the sleek lines of that one alot...bd
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Shaun I think the 60" is king primarily because "papa" preferred it.
Here's an example of the oxidation/yellowing Doc spoke of;
Same riser. In the first pic who knows for sure what wood? but in the second pic, pretty easy to tell. PH
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/59Riser001.jpg)
(http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa277/DUCK_TRAP/59Riser002.jpg)
Trap
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Chuck, that is a sleek profile on that bow. Very nice. I love the picture of that one in front of the Christmas tree.
Trap
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Doc, Trap- Thanks, I had carpal tunnel surgery on both my hands/wrists last summer and I am just now starting to shoot again. I wanted a lighter poundage bow to start with.
In 2009 I am going to hunt with this bow, 53#, 60" refinished '59 K to celebrate it's 50 year birthday (Happy 50th to Alaska as well). :archer:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d197/biggriz61/bowsinalaska001-1.jpg)
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Chuck, I think there will be more 59 model bows headed to the field this year than in any year since 1959. It seems like alot of folks are gearing up for the 50th B-Day celebration. I know I'll participate.
Sounds like a 50th Birthday celebration thread is in order. ;) I have a couple of 59s being worked on so I'm going to wait and decide which one I'll be taking for walks this fall. Should be fun.
So many other manufacturers of 1959 bows to consider as well.
Trap
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Originally posted by TRAP:
So many other manufacturers of 1959 bows to consider as well.
Trap
Trap- I don't even know you anymore....other manufacturers?? We have to talk...
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Mine's ready for my 50 year old hunting party! :archer:
'59K 60" 51# Bear arrows, Razorheads & Leathertop
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/stickbow98/59KodiakBD36860in51shelfside.jpg)
I just hope MY old equipment is in as good a working order as my "old equipment" is when the season rolls around! :pray:
:D
>>--Ron--<>
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LOL Chuck, I saw a pic of what I think was a 59 Browning Explorer or at least that's what the guy said it was. Very nice looking bow whatever it was. Wish I had saved the pic.
Then there's the Herters and Pearson 59s.
A great year for bows!!!!
My "go-to" bow this fall will have a Bear silkscreen or waterslide on it but it will be a Bear so dont worry I havent strayedthat far.
I may choose the smaller species of Brown Bear over his larger Kodiak Cousin though. I love my 59 Grizzly. Time and lots of arrows will tell.
Trap
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Y'all are getting me worked up too! :thumbsup:
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I've got my eye on one on the auction site that would be perfect to join the 50th year celebration team hunt. Bearquest and other hunts could be good with this set up. I don't think I have to worry too much about mentioning it to all you collectors, since its a 64" purpleheart SW and has holes drilled in the face and a bad tip overlay. Plus, you guys would all find it anyway and the worst you can do is push the price up to fair.
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the worst you can do is push the price up to fair.
:biglaugh: That sounds like a challenge!
I have my pristine 64" 52# '59 Kodiak, so you're safe from me (I can't buy a bow at a fair price now anyway!)
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I did not see the one with holes listed thanks Shaun...I have one myself and not going to buy another right now.My question is who's going for the 64" 50#er with the arrows that are in the original box ? check the stamp on the end of the arrow box.Thats a cool set up right there.It does have a little piece of one tip overlay missing ? there's some paper work also.The darn leather grip on that one looks really good too......bd
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That one is the perfect weight, I'm going to try for it. The price will probably get crazy though, I can always hope.
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Good luck on those guy's hope things go your way.bd
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Doc, that's the one. It was a different bow that has the sight holes (the signature Magnum) - my mistake. The only problem I see with this bow is the seller's "as is - no refund" policy. And of course the "Will not ship to Florida" caveat. (Just kidding seboomook - good luck.)
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Here's how bad you gotta really really want one...Last month I got a really sweet mint 1959 Kodiak 55#er 60" with all the original equitment arrows quiver string shooting glove paper work and shipping box it all came in.I don't think the bow had ever seen the light of day.You could small Grayling when I cut the box open.You know how bad I wanted this bow ?? I got the bow and accesseries all for my wife of 37 years....I'am gonna miss her alot..........bd
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But think of all the free time to spend in the shop without that Honeydo list...
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WOW! That's wanting it BAD alright! :bigsmyl:
:biglaugh:
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And I couldn't get a stinkin' broadhead from Wade for my wife.Where is the justice!!!!
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Yeah well John I got to see the 1959 before hand...he never saw my wife before the trade.That was one of those as is no return trades too........bd
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That's even worse doc 'cuz Wade did see my wife beore the trade offer.I can't let her see this thread,she'd kill Wade and me both!!!
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Holy crap I was just kidding John I made the whole story up.Gee's tell her anything but never let your woman read these threads.It could lead to mass murder for more then just you and Wade.bd
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I ain't sayin' nothin' to nobody.I'm already in enough hot water.
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Just called my daughter to come home from college 'cause that tuition check ain't coming.
I'm thinking with a new set of tips, I could set it up and show it off on Traps 50th thread.
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Shaun how many 08-09 raccoons would it take to pay for that 64" 50# 59 ?
I quit trapping early but I'm kinda wishing I had cought another 60 or so now ;)
Trap
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We might as well start the new thread
" '59 Kodiak thugfest "
I hate wrangling with you guys but I do want to try one. I got my ears boxed on the last good one. At least it will go to a good home no matter what
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I'd say there's a guy in Tenn. that will make a play for this one just like the last 3 64" 59s that have sold there.
Not to mention a half dozen other serious players.
Trap
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Trap, I pulled my traps early too as the bottom fell out of the fur market. What should have been a 15 coon bow would cost 45 at the prices the fur buyers were offering.
One the bright side, we had record lows last week and I got a handful of frozen pipe claims to work this week. No sense putting money in the stock market, so...
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I hear you Shaun, and beaver prices are worse than coons.
Hey bows are more fun to look at and play with than CDs anyway.
Good Luck fellas, hope to see a new addition on the B-Day thread.
Trap
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A fur buyer I know in Montana is sitting on a huge inventory now, nothing is moving.
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Guys, I just purchased a bow. If it is a 1959 Kodiak I would say I got a good deal on it. Can someone that knows how to identify better than me please E mail me so I can show them pictures to kind of verify? My E mail is [email protected] I would also like to know if anyone knows who to contact to get appraised. I just paid $415.00 for the bow.