Trad Gang
Main Boards => Trad History/Collecting => Topic started by: johnnyrazorhead on January 09, 2009, 05:37:00 PM
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well,
Today has been a wonderful day so far.Besides being Friday,I just got back from the Flint,Michigan area with some wonderful old archery items that were from the estate of A.J. Michelson.He was past president of the N.F.A.A.,the N.A.A.,Michigan Bowhunters,and helped draft legislation for the first Michigan B&A season in Michigan in 1937.He was a bigwig in the early days of bowhunting.Then I get home,and the mailman came to my door with my long awaited package of the '59 maple sight window Kodiak I bought on e*** awhile back.I said I would post some pics and wanted to get Bowdoc's opinion on the bow.The tips were replaced and look good.At least I think they do.Let me know what y'all think.Here's the first pic of the riser.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/maple59shelf.jpg)
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Scraped off the old,ratty rugrest and put on a new one.I thought of going with the feather rest which would have been more original to the bow but I do plan on shooting this one and go back and forth between the feather rest and a rugrest.So this one got the rugrest.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/maple59shelfclose.jpg)
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looks great but the shelf is on the wrong side.
ENJOY I bought last summer. Shoots good and look's better.
doug77
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Here's one of the coin side of the riser.The bow is in pretty good shape other than some stress lines,mostly on the belly side of the lower limb.I am very pleased with he bow so far.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/maple59coin.jpg)
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Alright Bowdoc. What do you think of the re-tip job?Looks good to me considering they're wood.May go with some of that new micarta material doc just got to make it look more original but we'll see.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/maple59limbtipI.jpg)
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Very nice John-congratulations, Specs? Grant
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And here's the other tip.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/maple59limbtipII.jpg)
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Here is my biggest concern,the stress lines on the lower limb belly glass.I know this is pretty common on these old Kodiaks but is it anything I should be concerned about?Anythnig I should do(ie..loctite 420)I did string it and pull it back.Limbs are straight.What is your opinions.Thanks.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/maple59stresslines.jpg)
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looks good! let us know she shoots. :cool:
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I will do that after the blizzard is over.C'mon spring!!
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good looking bow.
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:thumbsup:
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Beautiful bow
I'd like it with the new material, but then I'm not impartial. lol
Kurt
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How deep are the string grooves cut into the limb-cores? That is your achilles heal on these bows and would be area of concern if you are going to be shooting it frequently. Just my $.02
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That brings up an interesting point Chuck.
Not trying to hijack John, but recently Val Sorrentino's cousin sold a bow that Val had apparently been in the process of refinnishing.
The bow was an early 59 with the string groove cut through the fiberglass and into the core wood. It looked like Val had put a layer of fiberglass in the groove to reinforce it. Is this necessary on the early 59s?
Very nice bow John. Those tips look nice but I think I'd go red and white. Wasnt that a 52#er.
Trap
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Thanks guys.These maple sight windows are very nice looking.Chuck,the string grooves aren't cut real deep like I've seen on some other '59 Kodiaks so hopefully that won't be an issue.I've got the bow strung now but I'll unstring it and post a pic of the string grooves to see what you think.Thanks,any information helps.I certainly don't want to break this bow but I do want to shoot it.
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Grant and Trap.The bow is a 60" model,48#.I think the red and white micarta would look better too but these tips are o.k. for now.At least until I get to shoot it a bit then I'll send it away to be re-done.
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Chuck,here's a picture of one of the string grooves.Don't know if the picture is good enough for you to see with the flash or not.Do you think it looks too deep?
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/maplekodiakstringgroove.jpg)
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The earliest ones were cut through clear out to the ends of the "Y". That one does not appear to be, making it one of the late early ones! What are the numbers? I'm guessing BB or BC. CKruse
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Doc will chime in and tell you that the only real problem with those particular ones was that the sharp edged points on either side of the string nock wanted to catch on things and sometimes come loose. I understand it's an easy fix if it doesn't go too far. Yours looks pretty safe from where I sit! CKruse
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CKruse,
The serial number on this one is BA259.Does that makeit an earlier production bow?Thanks for your info on the grooves.
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Now I'm debating on whether I should install an original Bear ompass in the riser like Fred had on his hunting bows and/or a Bear factory quiver bushing in the grip for a screw in quiver.I've always wanted to put a compass in one of my hunting bows but I mainly shoot the '59 and '60 Kodiaks and hate to start drilling them full of holes,especially when they're all original and pretty clean.This one has already been altered a bit with the new limb tips so it doesn't seem as bad to do it.What do you guys think?Would you do it if it was your bow.Keep in mind it is not 100% original due to the limb tips being changed.I do want to hunt with it and how sweet would it be to have an inlaid compass and orignal Bear screw on leather-top quiver to go hunting with.
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That should say compass,not ompass.Me and my fat little fingers.
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It really depends on who you ask! Being a maple window, it's an early one all right. I've seen one marked BB that was cut clear through. I think it may have depended on who was holding the nock file-at least for a time. I was told B indicates a 60" Kodiak, and then they went with each series BA000,BB000,BC000.. and so on. This was info I got from Wade Phillips several years ago. However, it has been disputed by several folks I'd consider to be very knowlegeable too! I think the only guy that knows has been gone a few years. "But in the wind he's still alive"...CKruse
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CKruse.Ya,I know what you mean.I know alot of the serial numbers but some get confusing,especially these earlier ones.My other 60" maple sight window is also a BA serial number,my 64" starts with DA.
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I own 3 maple site windows, BA452, BA596, both 60", 50#. (One is a shooter and one is a wall-hanger.) and DA238 64" 46#. I have never seen any variance in the serial numbers as far as the BA and DA designations. The dream bow would be to find a AAxxx maple site window. Which would be a 56" Kodiak of course. . So far that bow has never been found. Bear Archery may not have had the 56 inch form ready for the 1959 Kodiak until they were using purple-heart in the i-beam construction. But ya never know!
John, I think having the bow refinished is a great idea for a bow you are going to shoot. Compass or quiver bushing?? can you do both? if not I'd vote compass.
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Chuck,
I checked the serial number on my other 60" maple and it's 10 digits away from yours.BA462.Pretty cool.And yes,finding a 56" maple sight window '59 would be sweet.
I'm not sure if I can do both compass and quiver bushing,I'll research a little more before I do anything.I think if it's one or the other I would do a compass too.
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Cool bow John.As for all the cracks if it were me and I were going to shoot that bow very often,I would most likely repair her at some point.Mostly just to prevent any moisture damage.
Trap the LDB also had that belly glass added after the fact same as Val's did.But to answer your ???'s no it really don't help putting a piece over it.When those come unglued they are comeing unglued from the corewood and really does not matter if something were added over the top.Looks cool.99% of the bows you see prior to 1959 that were cut into the corewood were fine shooters and kind of never really had any problems.The problems happen when you slide the limb tip across something like your carpet and they got snagged along eather side of the string groove..But adding something over the top would not help once it were cut to the original string groove shape again.It still lieves the two edges exposed for snagging...bd
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Thanks bowdoc.I'll will definitely take your advice and have them filled.I can't wait to shoot it.
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Yes John about 75-80% of the bows that do have cracks seem to never get any worse with just a little use.However if your planing on shooting it during hunting season I would most likely try and keep moisture out of them...bd
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John – Except for Fred’s personal bows, there are not many 1959 Kodiaks around with both an originally factory installed compass and quiver bushing for you to use as examples of their survivability over the past 50 years… Even for Fred’s personal bows, you need to keep in mind that they were not used much more than perhaps a single year, as he was almost always shooting the next year’s model as soon as shootable models were available.
In my collection, I have only one 1959 Kodiak that has both an original factory installed compass and quiver bushing. Floyd Eccleston bought the bow from Fred in 1959 and Floyd used it extensively for a number of years. I talked with Floyd about the bow the last time I saw him a couple of months before his death. Floyd told me it was his favorite personal bow. I would guess that you have a photograph of this bow, but may not realize that you have it as the bow is pretty well camouflaged in the photograph. Let me know if you can not locate a photograph of Floyd’s 1959 Kodiak, and I will make sure that you have a copy. Unfortunately, Floyd’s 1959 Kodiak is cracked below the grip. The cause of the crack is apparently due to both the compass and quiver bushing holes.
I have installed several quiver bushings in 1959 and 1960 Kodiaks for my personal hunting use, and have never had any problems even though the bows have endured extended soakings in rain as well as frequent temperatures well below zero. However, installing both a Compass and Quiver Bushing could provide enough weakness in the grip area for a crack, especially under hunting conditions as harsh as Michigan’s. The weather harshness in Floyd’s old hunting areas in north central Michigan and Canada are probably not much different than you find at the same time of year in south eastern Michigan, neither would be much different than here in Nebraska. Also, I would strongly suggest that any vintage bow be professionally refinished before it is used in potentially harsh hunting conditions. The survivability of 1959 Kodiaks with both a compass and a quiver bushing, may depend more on the total mass of the wood in the riser, rather than anything other than stress from drawing the bow. As I’m sure you know the size of the 1959 Kodiak grip varies greatly according to the draw weight of the bow and the fluctuations of the individual finishing. Many of the Maple Window 59s have a very narrow grip, which would likely be the least desirable candidates for adding additional holes for a compass and quiver bushing.
(http://members.cox.net/wadephillips/59Compass.JPG)
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John I would say a lot of the problems with the 1959 Kodiaks delaminating along the ibeam was do to moisture or water damage rather then stressing the bow.If you note about 99% of quiver bushings are drilled right to the purple heart or in your case maple ibeam.There's no finish in that hole and only 2-3 drops of water will make the unfinished wood swell inside the hole causeing expansition cracks in the glue line.If you think about it there is really no stress on the side slabs of the bow pending the bow is straight.You know a long bow type handle is much slimmer then a 1959 Kodiak and Lb's will handle plenty of weight.Bouts 90% of cracked ibeam 1959's were cracked because of step through stringing or in some cases the bows were dropped while strung(thats not good).If you just put a couple drops of super glue into the bottom of the quiver bushing hole will sure help keep water out..I've seen several 59's in the 60+ pound range with both quiver bushing and compass I believe Joe's 60# has both compass and bushing and never had any trouble cracking.As long as everything is straight and in line you should not have any problemo with it.bd
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Thanks for all the help with this matter of the compass and/or quiver bushing.I see where having the compass installed into the leather grip similar to the original Kodiak II as well as a quiver bushing might weaken the riser with those holes being so close together.I was thinking of following Fred Bear's lead and installing the compass well below the grip further down on the riser.I see by looking at some old photos of Fred on his Little Delta Hunt in 1959 that he does have a quiver bushing installed on his '59 Kodiak but can't tel if he also has a compass as it would be on the oposite side of the riser according to the photo I have included.This is an advertising poster of some of Fred's personal hunting bows.As you can see,he has his compasses installed further down on the riser than into the leather grip such as Wade shows on his bow.This is where I thought to install my compass.Do you think with a compass installed down lower like this,with a quiver bushing installed in the usual spot down low in the leather grip,that it would lessen the chance of weakening the bow?I would still put some Super Glue in the holes as Doc suggests.The top bow in the picture appears to be a '59 Kodiak and most of the photos I've seen of Fred around that time frame show his bows using a quiver mounted into a quiver bushing so I woould assume this bow has a quiver bushing as well as a compass.The bushing would of course be on the side of the bow not shown.What is your opinion.Would this further distance of the holes be better?
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/Fredsbows.jpg)
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Whats the middle bow's model?? Ive never seen that one?
Thanks Kurt
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The middle bow is another one of Bear's proto-type take-down bows that they were working on around that time period(mid 1960's)I believe that bow is shown in one of the Bear Archery films available now on DVD with Fred talking about the history of Bear Archery.The "latches" on the limbs actually work similar to a double-barrel shotgun where you slide a lever over to the side and release the latch and then out pop the limbs.Still not what Fred was looking for.
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Hey John have you ever seen one of Al Readers personal shooters ? Al actually scallops the lower limb about like the sight window right where you see Fred's compass mounted ? Al cuts a lot of stock out of that area and has never had any problems.He does only shoot 40# but his lower limb scallops are quite deep.bd
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No Doc,never seen one of Al's bows.I've heard he does some custom alteations,mostly to the limbs but I haven't personally seen any.
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I may have a pic of one of Al's bows around here somewhere.
OK I had to dig through over 550 Bear Kodiaks in my shop to find this beast for you and here she is.1957 Kodiak with original factory compass and quiver bushing.52 years old and still running strong...cool bow.bd (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/57yak001.jpg).. (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/57yak002.jpg)
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John's right about the "middle" bow. That was the first TD (at least that anyone was made aware of) that Papa took to Africa for the cape buff. The film John mentioned shows this bow in a little more detail- its appears in the film to be of an I-beam construction. Pretty cool--Grant
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keeping it up for Johnnyboy......bd
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Hey John that is not one of Al's bows(why to heavy for Al)the 1957 I had here and just wanted to show you how the compass and bushings were done.
I dout Bear Archery would have used wood overlays.If a bow from or before 1959 had been sent back for repairs after 1959 I'am pretty certin Bear would have used the same type fiberglass used from 1960 on...bd
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Thanks for the pics doc.It seems that you don't have to remove much wood to install a compass as they are rather thin but the quiver bushing is nother story.I just read in a Bear brochure I believe it was,about installing a quiver bushing.Once you drill the hole you need to clamp the bow in a vise,gently with some padding of course,and put some pressure on the bow befoe screwing the bushing in.Maybe alot of the do-it-yourselfers didn't do this and caused a split in the wood.I've got an old Grumley Custom osage Deerslayer that I believe had a quiver insert added after the fact.The leather grip has been replaced quite awhile back as it looks aged to the bow and there are some small dowel like protrutions under the leather where the riser was repaired back together.I'l bet the original owner decided to do it himself and split the osage riser.
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I deleted the original picture of Fred's bows in my photobucket so maybe that's why the picture was deleted in my earlier post.So for those that still want to see them I took another photo.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/Fredsbows.jpg)
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John
The center prototype is a holy grail bow, wonder if anyone knows where that one ended up?
Thanks for re-posting your picture.
Those 5 give me the willies
Kurt
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Kurt I was thinking Ass Pro Shop got the middle bow when they bought the musium.
Funny how Fred never used a 1961-1962 in to many promo's...Most everyone I ever talked with about Fred's bows said he was really parshil to the mighty 1959 Kodiak prior to the T/D's.bd
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I wonder if he always shot the 59s without a leather grip?
Trap
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Kurt and bowdoc,
I dug up an old photo I had taken at the Bear Museum when it was still in Gainesville,probably sometime in the mid 1990's.It's a display of Fred's hunting bows,some of the same ones ahown in the poster.The proto take-down is clearly visible in the picture so as doc said,Bass Pro Shop most likely ended up with it.
Your welcome Kurt for re-posting the pic.It gives me the willies too!I just want to get naked and roll around with those bows.(Did I say that out loud.Sorry.)LOL
Trap- All of the old pics I've seen of Fred with a '59 Kodiak shows them without a leather grip.Guess he preferred the feel of the wood.
Here's the pic I hope.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/Fredsbowsinmuseum.jpg)
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Are these bows on display at Bass Pro Shops in Springfield MO?
Trap
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Double D(Trap),
I hope you don't mind me calling you that after I saw doc do it I thought it was cool.I don't know if Bass Pro has them displayed or not,I haven't been there or heard.They seem to be taking a long time to get the stuff out there.
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Yup, Out loud John, but no one here will hold it against you.
Wonder if we can find out on the internet...Ill be right back
Kurt
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Links are down that are listed for Archery Hall of Fame and Museum.
Oh well Trap,if your ever driving by it, might be worth a stop and see
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That's fine John, I don't mind at all. I've been called a heck of alot worse. ;)
Kurt, I have "people" in Springfield. I'll have them keep us posted.
Trap
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Oh you think Johnny's sick for getting naked and rolling around on Fred's bows.
When the P&Y musium was sold.I got to go and help pack up the whole musium for shipping.Glenn asked if I would like to pack up the Pope and Young display...If I tell you guy's about sticking my tongue on Samba Blood and licking the DNA off please don't tell anyone as they may think I'am a little weird.Tasted like dust........bd
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Sadly, I don't think there's a cure for this affliction.
John, please do not post pictures should you ever get the opportunity.
Trap
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Bowdoc-
Now I know why I like you so much.We're both demented!!
Trap- Don't worry,I wouldn't do that to my worst enemy.I'm bad but not THAT bad.
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You know as long as we are on the subject....one thing that did bug me just a little over the last 25 years...Fred was never ever seen shooting a maple sight window 1959..it just seemed odd how everyone even myself at one point were pretty certin the no coin no coin hole maple sight windows were the first 1959...I just can't figure out why Fred did not have one himself....hummmmmmmmmmmm bd
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With all due respect, Thank You Sir. ;)
Trap
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BowDoc - I have never thought the no coin, no coin hole maple sight window was the first 1959 Kodiak made.
With all due respect, why would you or anyone else believe that????
Check your 1959 Bear Catalog... above the hunting scene photos on both the front and rear cover, a Dark Rosewood Sight Window 1959 Kodiak is shown, same for the photographs on page 5 of the 1959 Catalog.
The facts suggest that that Dark Rosewood Sight Window was the first 1959 Kodiak produced for sale.
I can offer additional facts if you wish to hear more concrete evidence than the 1959 Catalog…
Most respectfully - Wade
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Yes please I would love any info anyone has on 1959's.Some of the thought was a few 1959's were produced prior to the catalog being printed.Late 1958-ish before to the Bear coin.One former worker from Bear I interviewed told me Bear archery or Bear's R&D was testing the 1959 Kodiak in oct.or nov.of 1958.He could not recall if it had a coin or not.I would think the first 1959's had no coin.I have seen several without coin or hole for coin ??? keep me posted bd
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here is a sample of two Grizzly's one has no coin no coin hole and tip overlays look more 1958 then 1959.The no coin bow serial number is FA and the one with coin is FF both original.bd (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/grizs001.jpg) (http://i264.photobucket.com/albums/ii175/bowdocsarchery/grizs002.jpg)
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Cool bows doc.
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So, what did you decide John? Compass? Quiver Bushing? Both? Neither? New overlays?
Trap
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Trap,
I will have the stress lines sealed and probably have the red and white overlays installed at the same time.The compass is almost a for sure and I'm still debating on the quiver bushing.It's only 1/2" long and if I take doc's advice and seal the holes to prevent water seepage and possible swelling,it seems like it would survive.At least I hope it would.That picture doc posted of that '57 Kodiak with both bushing and compass gives me hope that both can be done successfully.What would you do if it was your bow?
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Well, I don't have a MSW so I'm not sure I can accurately answer that but....Here's what I'm thinking.
You are going to have some work done on the bow to make it an everyday shooter it sounds like.
If you like to hunt with a bolt-on quiver, you're not going to be satisfied untill you add the bushing and take a picture of the old girl laying on the side of a white-tailed deer with the 4-arrow bolt-on and the 3 remaining woodies sticking out of it.
As long as it's an authentic Bear quiver bushing I cant see how it will devalue the bow a great deal. It's not like you're putting two Kwikee Kwiver bushings in it. You'll likely keep the bow a long time anyway. It's a MSW, it will always be valuable.
As far as the compass and bushing, Fred did it, but hey they sold for what, $59.50 back then and he had a factory full of them.
It's a valuable collectible and that makes altering it anymore than necessary a bit risky. I don't like the tape-on quiver near as much as the bolt on but before I drilled the hole I'd try one out to see if I could live with it, but heck, I bet you've already done that. LOL
Did I do a good enough job adding my opinions without offering any advice whatsoever? Good that was my intention. It's a great bow and will be a great bow no matter what you choose to do because I know you'll keep it as period correct and authentic as you can while making it the weapon you want it to be.
Trap
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Trap,
You actually did a great job of giving your opinion.You expressed my thoughts better than I did.I do feel that the quiver bushing being an original,installed in the "factory" location low in the leather grip,really shouldn't de-value the bow at all.The compass may,but if I did it at least it would be an original Bear compass.
And I have tried the tape on quiver with some custom made rubber straps on one of my '60 Kodiaks.It did work but like you said,in all honesty,I don't like it as much as a bolt-on.It works but it just doesn't look right.
But I especially liked your "vision" of the old girl laying on the side of a white-tail with the remaining three arrows in the bolt on quiver.That is exactly what drives me to "build" this bow.That scenario is exactly as how it should be.It just seems right.
All in all there are no guarantees that the bow will never fail me if I do add my extras.Even if I don't alter it,there are no guarantees with a 50 year old bow.If it never breaks,it will be one awesome,vintage hunting bow.And if it does choose to fail me,then I guess that is what was meant to be.Either way I'll bet Fred will be smling.
I do like your vision of the bow with a buck next to it.That's exactly the "advice" I was looking for.You do understand.Thanks.
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Doc,
After viewing your picture of the '57 Kodiak with the compass and quiver bushing,I got to wondering about this bow I had on my rack.It came from R&D at Bear in Grayling along with that two-piece '63 Kodiak Magnum,the KS with the V-lams running down the sides of the limbs,the green futurewood Grizzly with red glas,and some others.Many were marked with a piece of white tape with EXP on them like this one I'm about to show you.
It looks like a regular '56 Kodiak,60",52# and I always wondered why it was marked EXP.I was told on another EXP bow that looked totally factory was that they were trying a different glue out on it and hence the EXP designation.This '56 does have a factory installed compass in it,and a factory installed quiver bushing.I never thought that the addition of the compass would cause it to be deemed EXP since Bear had been there and done that in '54 and never paid much attention to the added quiver bushing as those have been around even longer.
But this thread,along with your picture and Wade's comments,got me wondering if this bow was marked EXP to test out the combination of both compass and quiver bushing.Some food for thought anyhow.The bow is in immaculate condition.What do you fellas think?
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/compasskodiakI.jpg)
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The other side with the tape faintly marked EXP.
(http://i475.photobucket.com/albums/rr118/johnnyrazorhead/compasskodiakII.jpg)
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John - Considering who you got the bows from, and what they told you, and what the bows actually are, I sure would not doubt the Exp on the 1956 Kodiak was put there because of the different glue just as the guy told you.
I have a factory installed compass in Kodiaks from these years, 1953, 1954, 1955, 1958 and 1959. None of these bows are marked Exp. Have also seen other non 1954 Kodiaks with a Compass and none that I can remember were marked Exp.
On the flip side, I have two "No Compass" 1954 "Compass Kodiaks" that have never had a compass or compass hole... one is Fred's very first recurve made... as in his original prototype of a recurve bow... the other has some unusual solid material (not wood) for the limb laminations. Surprisingly, neither is marked Exp... neither has a compass...
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John - Your original post was 15 days ago. I'm surprised you don't already have the quiver bushing and compass both installed in that 59 and have photographs of it posted on this thread...
If you can't make up your mind, just send the bow to me, I'll give you a chance to get half of your money back for it. That is my standing offer, but nobody ever takes me up on it.
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My question on this bow Wade was whether you thought it might have gotten the EXP tag because it had BOTH compass and quiver bushing.Perhaps the guys at Bear,and Fred himself,debated as we have here on this post,on whether a bow could handle BOTH compass and quiver bushing without breaking.I can't recall seeing too many Bear bows with BOTH factory installed.
Also,many of the bows I have are simply marked EXP on a piece of tape which could easily be removed.Perhaps some of the bows you mentioned had a piece of tape on them marked EXP at one time.I know I've been tempted to remove them a couple of times on mine but thankfully never did.It would be very easy to do.Just a thought.
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Here's Mr. Meakers K-4
(http://i444.photobucket.com/albums/qq170/mibowman/DSCN1618.jpg)
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John, werent alot of the 54 Kodiaks also fitted with a quiver bushing in addition to the standard compass?
Would your suggested experimentation have been done in 55, 56, 57 because of failures in 54?
Were the 54 Kodiaks more prone to failure than other models?
Trap
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Trap,
I'm sure there were some Kodiak II's with quiver bushings installed.I can't recall seeing many myself but I'm sure a few exist.How well they held up if they did have both and were shot I don't know.Heaviar weight bows would seem to be more likely to break.
I've heard it said that the compass bows were prone to breakage due to the compass installed but the ones I've seen broken seem to break at the fade-outs which seem to be a little bit of a weak area.